How many fireballs can I cast in a round

[Skrum]

As the title says. I'm preparing an encounter and I need the villain to be able to cast several fireballs in one round. Yes I know I can just handwave it, but out of curiosity how could I actually make this happen with base mechanics.

[Mellack]

Two I believe if they have some version of the fighter's action surge. That assumes PC mechanics.

Villains are allowed the use of legendary actions, which really allows whatever number you want, using base game mechanics.

[Skrum]

Two I believe if they have some version of the fighter's action surge. That assumes PC mechanics.

Villains are allowed the use of legendary actions, which really allows whatever number you want, using base game mechanics.

Aww there's no quicken spell anymore? I was thinking like fighter 2/sorcerer X for 4 fireballs

[LudicSavant]

As the title says. I'm preparing an encounter and I need the villain to be able to cast several fireballs in one round. Yes I know I can just handwave it, but out of curiosity how could I actually make this happen with base mechanics.

You can do Fireball + Fireball (Action Surge) + Fireball (Simulacrum) + Fireball (Simulacrum Action Surge) + Delayed Blast Fireball + Delayed Blast Fireball (Simulacrum) + Transmuted Spell (Fire) Otiluke's Freezing Sphere * number of spell slots and SP available for it + the same thing from the Simulacrum + Glyph of Warding (Fireball) * however many glyphs can you afford. All off a single, non-NPC character's action economy.

So yeah... you can get lots and lots of Fireballs, before even resorting to NPC abilities like Legendary Actions.


Aww there's no quicken spell anymore? I was thinking like fighter 2/sorcerer X for 4 fireballs

Quicken Spell exists, it just doesn't let you cast more (non-cantrip) spells anymore.

[sayaijin]

Villains are allowed the use of legendary actions, which really allows whatever number you want, using base game mechanics.

If you're discussing features for a villain, this is the key part of what was said. It's your world, and your villain. If it makes sense for your villain to unleash 4 fireballs in a round, then go for it!

[Mellack]

Aww there's no quicken spell anymore? I was thinking like fighter 2/sorcerer X for 4 fireballs

There is, it won't help you.

[When you cast a spell as a bonus action,] you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action

[ProsecutorGodot]

Aww there's no quicken spell anymore? I was thinking like fighter 2/sorcerer X for 4 fireballs

There is, but if you Quicken a Fireball you actually can't even use Action Surge to cast another one because of the spellcasting rules. Whenever you cast a spell as a bonus action, regardless of its level, you cannot cast a spell other than a cantrip using your action.

However, you did say per round and not per turn, which would allow a spellcaster with War Caster to cast Fireball as an opportunity attack reaction on another creatures turn after they've Fireballed twice using Action Surge. The only requirement here is that a creature provokes an opportunity attack from them. No War Caster for the same reason you cannot Twin.

But I think Mellack's solution is best, they're an NPC, give them Legendary Actions if you need for them to cast Fireball often. If you really want to spice it up, you can make it an action that casts Fireball on their turn and again on the next creatures turn as a recharging action (5-6 on a d6, it would function the same as a legendary action but it doesn't automatically refresh each round). Not sure how powerful you want this NPC to be but those would be some solutions.

[LudicSavant]

It really depends on how you interpret certain effects and what you consider 'on the table'

The first thing that comes to mind is a sorcerer 3/fighter 2/wizard 15. Get a simulacrum. Both you and it twin a fireball, then action surge, then twin another fireball, then release twinned delayed-blast fireballs, which is twelve. You have to cast the delayed-blast fireballs with an 8th level slot here I think.

I'm sure the maniacs on her can massively outperform me, but to start with:

12.

You can't Twin a Fireball. And I already mentioned a way to exceed 12 :smallsmile:

[Falconcry]

Quicken to make fireball a Bonus Action would mean only to be able to cast a cantrip as an Action. If you mean Twinned spells then the spell can only have a maximum of a single target.

[LudicSavant]

Quicken to make fireball a Bonus Action would mean only to be able to cast a cantrip as an Action. If you mean Twinned spells then the spell can only have a maximum of a single target.

Yeah, Twinned and Quicken don't actually help you here.

[Falconcry]

20 henchpersons with attuned wands of fireball?

[LudicSavant]

A typical Wizard/Fighter of level 15+ can dish out 4 Fireballs at the drop of a hat.

With some prep, they can do more. A Chronurgist subclass Wizard can get 2 more Fireballs with Arcane Abeyance. Glyphs of Warding basically allow you to add as many Fireballs as you want with enough prep time and money.

If we get loose with our definition of a Fireball, we can do even more. Otiluke's Freezing Sphere (with Transmuted Spell: Fire) is... basically just a plus-size Fireball, and you can pre-cast those and drop them on round 1 with familiars or animated dead or whatever, without Concentration, so you can set up as many as you have spell slots and animated minions to toss them. Then there's Delayed Blast Fireball, which eats your Concentration but allows another pre-cast sphere of fiery death, which you can of course double up with a Simulacrum. If we're getting extra loose with our definition of "fireballs" we could even mention Meteor Swarm, which makes 4 giant fiery explosions per casting.

Throw all that together and you can dish out as many spheres of fiery doom as you could ever possibly want in the space of a single round, all before going beyond PC actions.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

It's a villain. Give it three legendary actions and casting a spell costs 1 legendary action. Drop in at will fireball and you have yourself 4 fireballs a round every round. throw in a sculpted spell or an overchannel to really give it some oomph.

[LudicSavant]

The OP specifically asked us not to handwave it using DM powers.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The OP specifically asked us not to handwave it using DM powers.

Creating NPC's with lair or legendary actions is entirely as much in the rules as your suggestions. That or we could just take an existing monster and just repurpose it for the encounter. It's a pretty shallow pool of options for this sort of thing because if you choose the "player rules" as your metric, you've covered just about every guarantee.

You could always play the lottery and use Wild Magic Sorcerer with one of those new spell focus that lets them force a surge when they use a metamagic spell. There's no guarantee that you'll exceed 12 castings but there's infinite potential.

[LudicSavant]

Creating NPC's with lair or legendary actions is entirely as much in the rules I agree that it is entirely within the rules for the DM to create a new monster with whatever statistics they desire, but it seemed to me at least that the OP was looking to work within restrictions.


if you choose the "player rules" as your metric, you've covered just about every guarantee.

https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

[Zhorn]

As the title says. I'm preparing an encounter and I need the villain to be able to cast several fireballs in one round. Yes I know I can just handwave it, but out of curiosity how could I actually make this happen with base mechanics.

Out of curiosity; what is the context for needing so many fireballs?

Is this for the purposes of overcoming the defensive capabilities of a Counter Spell heavy group?
Are so many of the characters rocking Evasion and Fire Resistance that it is all about keeping up with the power creep?
Is there an army traveling with the party that you need to treat as Redshirts (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedShirtArmy) to highlight how powerful a threat this villain is while at the same time removing a mass of NPCs from the action economy?

Does it need to be specifically fireballs?
Is there an expectation of prep-time for the villain?
Who's territory is the encounter happening on?

For methodology to achieve it, the above posters have most of the things you'll be looking for (LudicSavant's is particularly interesting).
If it is on the Villain's territory, even casting Glyph of Warding and Symbol will net you a good stockpile of aoe blasts if you want this to be more of a short term fireworks display instead of a 'every round' thing

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

The OP specifically asked us not to handwave it using DM powers.

I read that differently from you, I took that more as stay within the established framework. As a player if the dm cast fireball as a bonus action and then another as his action that would pull me out of the game, likewise with twinning it. These break the basic rules of the game/ability. thus handwave dm power. What I presented is within the core game mechanics already and has examples of it in WOTC published material.

[follacchioso]

Glyph of warding is an option, but remember these will have to be triggered by the PCs. The villain will have no way to direct the fireballs from the glyph, whoever triggers the condition gets a fireball on themselves.

[DwarfFighter]

What OP is asking for is in effect: "Is there a class build where my PC can cast more than one spell in a round, not counting cantrips? I'm thinking Fireball here!" You'd probably get a more comprehensive response for something like that from the PC optimizers.


Creating NPC's with lair or legendary actions is entirely as much in the rules as your suggestions. That or we could just take an existing monster and just repurpose it for the encounter. It's a pretty shallow pool of options for this sort of thing because if you choose the "player rules" as your metric, you've covered just about every guarantee.


There is nothing stopping you from inventing new NPC abilities that does exactly what you want, and place any restrictions on that ability that you feel like, e.g.:


Action: Double-Cast: The character selects one spell they knows that has a casting time of one action and does not require concentration. They cast the spell two times with this same action, spending a spell slot for each of them. Both spells count as being cast using the spell slot level of the lowest level spell slot spent. The character cannot use this ability again until they has completed a long rest.

How much is that worth as a CR modifier? I dunno, +1?


The OP specifically asked us not to handwave it using DM powers.

I think his initial challenge got the thumbs down, but people like me are excited to tell him that he can still get the results he wants, just that the process is flawed.

-DF

[MoiMagnus]

As for using legendary actions to cast additional spells, the MM has both the Androsphinx and the Gynosphinx with the following option:


Cast a Spell (Costs 3 Actions). The sphinx casts a spell from its list of prepared spells, using a spell slot as normal.

While they don't have fireball, the Androsphinx can double-flamestrike, which is near enough. But you don't get more than two spells per rounds in the officially published monsters.

[Valmark]

I think his initial challenge got the thumbs down, but people like me are excited to tell him that he can still get the results he wants, just that the process is flawed.

-DF

I mean, one of the replies shows how to get 4 blasts in a round (even a turn) plus an uncalculable amount of additional blasts given enough preparations and using only PC mechanics- the 'challenge' seems to have been replied to exaustively, to say the least.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You can ready a fireball to cast at the start of your turn.
Next turn cast fire ball and use 2 action surges for two more fireballs.
You get a total of 4 fireballs.

[MoiMagnus]

Next turn cast fire ball and use 2 action surges for two more fireballs.

Isn't action surge limited at 1 per round?

[LudicSavant]

Isn't action surge limited at 1 per round?

It is indeed limited to one Action Surge per turn.

[Valmark]

You can ready a fireball to cast at the start of your turn.
Next turn cast fire ball and use 2 action surges for two more fireballs.
You get a total of 4 fireballs.

Note that when you ready an action (including a spell) you have to cast it before the start of your turn, so it'd have to be readied to cast at the start of the round to be on the safe side (If your turn isn't at the start of the round I guess).

[OldTrees1]

Delayed Blast Fireball + Delayed Blast Fireball (Simulacrum) + Transmuted Spell (Fire) Otiluke's Freezing Sphere * number of spell slots and SP available for it + the same thing from the Simulacrum

These two methods are both limited by a 1 minute duration (assuming enough spell slots) but are 6/7th level spells (thus we are limited on spell slots) and SP is only used for the Transmuting Spell metamagic(Should be more than enough SP for 1 SP per spell). So I expect this amounts to up to +6 Transmuted Spell (Fire) Freezing Spheres and +2 Delayed Blast Fireballs.

[Lupine]

Four, as a fighter, sorc, multiclass, with a necklace of fireballs

Action, throw a ball, quicken for a fireball cast, action surge, repeat.

[JNAProductions]

Four, as a fighter, sorc, multiclass, with a necklace of fireballs

Action, throw a ball, quicken for a fireball cast, action surge, repeat.

That's only three.

And to the OP-it's good that you're thinking about how the players will feel, but don't feel wholly constrained by what PCs can do. You are the DM-you can make what you want. Though I 100% get that, if the enemy is similar in stature to a PC, you'd want to stick to what PCs can do.

[Dienekes]

There is, but if you Quicken a Fireball you actually can't even use Action Surge to cast another one because of the spellcasting rules. Whenever you cast a spell as a bonus action, regardless of its level, you cannot cast a spell other than a cantrip using your action.



As a minor aside, can I mention how amusing it is that the design intention was clearly to not allow the player to cast more than one leveled spell per turn. But because of wording and formatting the actual result is “let’s see how many spells I can cast without using my Bonus Action.”

[Lupine]

That's only three.
huh. I always thought that action surge gave you an additional bonus action. you are correct.

[JNAProductions]

huh. I always thought that action surge gave you an additional bonus action. you are correct.

You're not the only one who's made that mistake, so no worries.

[Frogreaver]

These two methods are both limited by a 1 minute duration (assuming enough spell slots) but are 6/7th level spells (thus we are limited on spell slots) and SP is only used for the Transmuting Spell metamagic(Should be more than enough SP for 1 SP per spell). So I expect this amounts to up to +6 Transmuted Spell (Fire) Freezing Spheres and +2 Delayed Blast Fireballs.

The amount of prep required for delayed blast fireball and multiple freezing spheres all of which only last 1 minute and all have a range close enough such that the PCs can engage with ranged abilities on round 1...

I think one would need to bring in time stop to have a chance of making this a realistic tactic.

[Bloodcloud]

My take would be to create a high level spell with that spellcasters name called fireball swarm, maybe with a costly material component. Then it can be a cool treasure for your players, usable at later levels.

[stoutstien]

As the title says. I'm preparing an encounter and I need the villain to be able to cast several fireballs in one round. Yes I know I can just handwave it, but out of curiosity how could I actually make this happen with base mechanics.

Best bet is LA or using multiple initiatives for that NPC.

Alternatively is something like upcasting tiny servant and giving them a necklace of fireball. *Had a DM give one with 9 beads to my artificer and I squirreled it away until we needed it. Pulled off getting 6 fireballs in that round.*

[Willie the Duck]

As a minor aside, can I mention how amusing it is that the design intention was clearly to not allow the player to cast more than one leveled spell per turn. But because of wording and formatting the actual result is “let’s see how many spells I can cast without using my Bonus Action.”
That's a reason why I think JNA's advice is solid:

And to the OP-it's good that you're thinking about how the players will feel, but don't feel wholly constrained by what PCs can do. You are the DM-you can make what you want. Though I 100% get that, if the enemy is similar in stature to a PC, you'd want to stick to what PCs can do.
5e has some significant constraints put in to limit the ways that action economy abuse will become overly disruptive (including making quicken spell do very much not what people expect it to do), but then have other things (Simulacrum + Glyph of Warding most notably, delayed blast fireball/Freezing Sphere exist but are only AOEs and 2 levels of fighter for action surge is a big opportunity cost) which then get us right back into the shenanigans. These might be the kind of things the OP might not want to normalize/incentivize, depending on how they want their gameplay to play out. Having a custom opponent seems likely to be less disruptive.

[LudicSavant]

5e has some significant constraints put in to limit the ways that action economy abuse will become overly disruptive (including making quicken spell do very much not what people expect it to do), but then have other things (Simulacrum + Glyph of Warding most notably, delayed blast fireball/Freezing Sphere exist but are only AOEs and 2 levels of fighter for action surge is a big opportunity cost) which then get us right back into the shenanigans.

We see this sort of action economy dichotomy in summons too -- we see a contrast between, say, the apparent fear of a dog being able to act like a dog for the Beastmaster Ranger, yet just about every summon gets its full action economy, whether it's conjure animals, tasha's summons, animate dead, find steed, find familiar, whatever.


As a minor aside, can I mention how amusing it is that the design intention was clearly to not allow the player to cast more than one leveled spell per turn. But because of wording and formatting the actual result is “let’s see how many spells I can cast without using my Bonus Action.”

Was that clearly the design intention? Like, none of the dev comments on Action Surge spells I've seen have mentioned that. So how would we know?

I see people assuming the developers' intentions a lot, but I think one should always be wary of making such assumptions. We ultimately don't know their minds (unless they've said something about the matter), and sometimes a developer's reasoning and vision for the game is very different from what people expect.

[Tanarii]

My take would be to create a high level spell with that spellcasters name called fireball swarm, maybe with a costly material component. Then it can be a cool treasure for your players, usable at later levels.
Sounds like Meteor Swarm to me.

[quindraco]

I agree with other posters - the correct answer is infinite, limited only by your number of necklaces of fireballs (if the BBEG in question is an Artificer or has an Artificer friend, they already have access to infinite Awakened Shrubs to throw the fireballs).

The maximum per necklace has some dependency on GM rulings, but certainly a crew of L3 Thieves can do this: Use an Object (catch necklace tossed to thief), Throw Bead as an Action, Bonus Action toss to next Thief. Unlike the shrubs, the thieves will probably demand wages.

[kingcheesepants]

Glyph of warding is an option, but remember these will have to be triggered by the PCs. The villain will have no way to direct the fireballs from the glyph, whoever triggers the condition gets a fireball on themselves.

You can have glyphs set to trigger by whatever you want. Sure a common one is if a creature comes within x distance of the glyph but passphrase triggers exist too. Have the glyph 1 go off when you say glyph 1 activate, glyph 2 when you say glyph 2 and so on. However if the enemy is trapping the area with a bunch of glyphs there are much better things to be using than fireballs.

[CapnWildefyr]

Do they have to be real fireballs?

If you're stuck with a particular villain build, or one limited to lower levels, you could potentially cast just one real one and use other means to cast a big illusion of 3+. Or necklace of fireballs + illusion, whatever. That way if your players aren't in a position to eat 4 fireball hits...

Of course, next time, you do it for real...

[Man_Over_Game]

You're not the only one who's made that mistake, so no worries.

Not even that far off of a mistake. Old editions of the PHB mentioned the Bonus Action in the Action Surge description (but its text was ambiguously describing how you still only have one Bonus Action). It is one of the rare, unlisted errata's they've done, which is why some folks remember it and others think they're crazy.

I kinda like the idea of setting up a Contingency to shoot a Fireball after I cast Fireball. Level 13, no magic items, 3 Fireballs in a round. It's not much, but it doesn't require DM fiat or simulacrum shenanigans.

[LudicSavant]

I kinda like the idea of setting up a Contingency to shoot a Fireball after I cast Fireball. Level 13, no magic items, 3 Fireballs in a round. It's not much, but it doesn't require DM fiat or simulacrum shenanigans.

This doesn't work. A contingent spell hits only you, even if it can normally affect other creatures.

[JackPhoenix]

You can have glyphs set to trigger by whatever you want. Sure a common one is if a creature comes within x distance of the glyph but passphrase triggers exist too. Have the glyph 1 go off when you say glyph 1 activate, glyph 2 when you say glyph 2 and so on. However if the enemy is trapping the area with a bunch of glyphs there are much better things to be using than fireballs.

GoW targets the creature that triggered it. If you say the password, the Fireball target yourself

[OldTrees1]

Sounds like Meteor Swarm to me.

1) Nah, can't be. Meteor Swarm does not have a costly material component
2) In 5E, Meteor Swarm does not allow multiple hits. It still is 40d6 so it might still feel like multiple.

A creature in the area of more than one fiery burst is affected only once.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Isn't action surge limited at 1 per round?


It is indeed limited to one Action Surge per turn.

I can't believe I never noticed it for a few years. Thank you for correcting me.
I hope it was added later and that my memory was correct.

[CapnWildefyr]

GoW targets the creature that triggered it. If you say the password, the Fireball target yourself

Yes. Also, you can't move the glyphed object more than 10 feet, either, so this only works in a prepared defensive position. But you could make several GoW rocks or scrolls set to go off under a condition like being burned in magical fireball, or hit by some other AoE spell. In that case, they would go off in place, as the trigger was the initial fireball or whatever - not you.

[JackPhoenix]

Yes. Also, you can't move the glyphed object more than 10 feet, either, so this only works in a prepared defensive position. But you could make several GoW rocks or scrolls set to go off under a condition like being burned in magical fireball, or hit by some other AoE spell. In that case, they would go off in place, as the trigger was the initial fireball or whatever - not you.

I'm not sure that works. The spell glyph specifically targets triggering creature (or the creature's space, in case of AoE). That suggest it would either hit the original Fireball's caster, or fail, as the trigger would be invalid if it doesn't involve a creature.