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View Full Version : Looking for a game with good "secondary skillset" mechanics



quinron
2021-04-13, 09:05 PM
I haven't played much outside D&D and Pathfinder, and recently I'm feeling a little underwhelmed by their handling of primary and secondary skills/capabilities. In 5e (my main system) you basically get nothing outside your class, or at least nothing that you can actively progress, so if (to use an example from a previous game of mine) someone wants to play a barbarian who's also does alchemy and potion-crafting, either they have to start multiclassing (into something that probably won't synergize with their main class) or I have to come up with new mechanics and sub-systems to allow that.

I'm wondering if anyone can suggest a system that has a well-designed two-tier power system - you have one set of main skills, and you have a second set of skills that are not as good (or not as mechanically fleshed-out) as that set, but are better than your other ones; ideally I'd like to be able to mix and match the tiers. I'd be open to slightly more granular systems (say, 3 or maybe 4 skill tiers), but I'm not looking for full GURPS-level modularity.

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-14, 03:20 AM
Honestly unless you go for a SUE-style 'every class is gesalt' system, with or without the mutually exclusive class lists, this is going to be hard to implement. Mainly because you've now got at least twice as many possible combinations to test. You kind of reach a point where you start to ask yourself 'why not just point buy'.

Now, assuming you wanted D&D' paradigm of class abilities over something like a Profession or Identity based skill systems the only real way I could see handling it, and what I believe some systems use, is to have a set of ability progressions and give them out in uneven patterns. So you get say a Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary track, and you get Abilities from your Primary every level, your Serving every other level, and your Tertiary every third level.

DrMartin
2021-04-14, 04:15 AM
Warhammer's career system is quite good at doing this, although my experience is limited to the (quite old by now) 1st and 2nd editions.

Rynjin
2021-04-14, 04:44 AM
Savage Worlds is modular, with the ability to mix and match your skills, attributes, and special abilities however you please. My favorite character in the system was made for a homebrew Fallout setting, and was a reactor engineer who was also a competent martial artist; he punched **** with brass knuckles, shot them with laser weapons for his ranged option, and had all of the engineering stuff you'd expect, including a McGyver ability (the actual name for the Edge, mind you) that let him whip up fantastic one-shot devices out of random items he found.

Unlike GURPS, the point system is much easier to understand, and is broken into distinct non-overlapping categories; you have Attribute points, Skill points, and a few wildcard points you can spend on attributes, skills, or Edges (basically Feats), so it's not nearly as overwhelming. If you still want classes, Savage RIFTS is a setting/sourcebook which has several Iconic Frameworks to choose from which give each character a baseline set of abilities along with what you'd normally gain from character creation, though it's made for a much higher power/danger level. Has no SRD, so you'll need to purchase the SWADE (Savage Worlds Adventure Edition) rulebook, but it's fairly inexpensive and well worth it.

You can do similar stuff with Mutants and Masterminds if you want a system that's closer to the d20 you're used to, but it is definitely leaning towards the "GURPS style modular' you don't want. Available at d20HeroSRD.com (https://www.d20herosrd.com/) to start with.

I will always take any opportunity to gush about Final Fantasy d6, which likewise lets you do pretty much anything, though with a bit more guidance. There are classes. but you are able (and encouraged) to swap a\in and out of different Jobs to pick which abilities you like best. Skill points are determined purely by the class you pick at first level, and are the only thing that is "locked in" over time (you'll never gain skill points by Job changing, only by leveling). HP, MP, and base defense bonus, as well as armor proficiency is determined by current class. Weapon proficiencies and Job abilities transfer no matter what you do, with the exception of each class having a single core ability that doesn't transfer (a Dragoon's ability to Jump, or a Blue Mage's ability to Learn).

This means you'll never really feel like you're missing out. If you start as an Engineer, and take a bunch of Synthesis skills and the like, then transfer to, say, Warrior, you don't lose any utility.

The system also has incidental magic, which is neat. Eg. if your Black Mage knows the Fire spell, they can light small fires and whatnot at will; no need to spend MP actually casting Fire. As you get more powerful Fire spells, even bigger fires become "incidental". this lets you have your RP cake and eat it too without feeling like you're gimping yourself by actually spending a resource. Available from a Mediafire download in this forum thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?173958-Final-Fantasy-d6-%28Complete-System%29) as it's a fanmade system from the Playground.


Godbound is also great, though a very different paradigm than most games. Each character is a demigod of sorts, with mastery over a certain number of Words representing broad scope things. Within the confines of that Word's sphere, your character has absolute dominion. A character with the Word of Sword will never fail, never lose at anything Sword related unless directly matching up against someone else with the Sword Word. Likewise a master of Deception will never fail to tell a lie (they are always believed when they say something), a master of Light has dominion over light, etc. You can mix and match these Words as you will, and each has both utility and combat applications. Available in both a free (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/185959/Godbound-A-Game-of-Divine-Heroes-Free-Edition) and Deluxe (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/185960/Godbound-A-Game-of-Divine-Heroes-Deluxe-Edition) edition.

And of course you've played Pathfinder; this is the case with that game as well. Particularly if you play with popular third party options like Path of War (available on the d20PFSRD (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/), or Library of Metzofitz (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Library_of_Metzofitz)) and Spheres (which also has a wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/)) which give a more modular approach to character creation, or just overall more flexible classes that don't have the issues of a Fighter only having 2 skill points to throw around.

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-14, 06:49 AM
Warhammer's career system is quite good at doing this, although my experience is limited to the (quite old by now) 1st and 2nd editions.

It's back in 4th, but streamlined. Strictly speaking instead of all the individual careers of 1e and 2e which each led into various other careers you overseas have a bunch of careers which reach have four level's that you can move up (and technically down) sheet enough advancements or change to a new career entirely.


If we're including Savage Worlds, then Date deserves a shout. Characters are built it of Aspects, Skills, and Stunts. Aspects are phrases that are relevant to your character (or anything really, you can stat anything as a character in Fate*), they let you just do certain things (and can stop you from doing others) and can have Fate Points spent on them to do things. Stunts are Feats, they're that little bit extra or thing you're unusually skilled at, and don't stack (except on rare occasions). Skills are, will skills, but there's no attribute/skill distinction, so if you want your barbarian to be good at alchemy just take Good (+3) Alchemy.

One Roll Engine games might also qualify, although not Wild Talents due to the crunchy power creation. But that's also a case of saying 'most point but games technically qualify, but crunch level varies'.

* I really want to play as another PC's enchanted sword at some point

quinron
2021-04-14, 10:38 AM
Now, assuming you wanted D&D' paradigm of class abilities over something like a Profession or Identity based skill systems the only real way I could see handling it, and what I believe some systems use, is to have a set of ability progressions and give them out in uneven patterns. So you get say a Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary track, and you get Abilities from your Primary every level, your Serving every other level, and your Tertiary every third level.

This is very close to what I was. My desire for this mostly came out of me examining D&D 5e and PF2e and realizing that I don't like how either system implemented backgrounds - if you're going to include a major element in character creation that grants useful adventuring skills, I think it's silly not to let you develop that skillset as you continue adventuring. PF2e does this a little bit with ancestry feats, but backgrounds still just give you bonuses at 1st level and then never matter again.

Would you (or anyone) be able to recommend some systems like this?

clash
2021-04-14, 04:41 PM
Vanguards and villains is a classless system that uses a form of expanded backgrounds called traits. Basically it gives you the starting feature then the equivalent of every 5 class level or gives you another ability related to the theme. Here is an example trait.


Psychic
Either born with strange abilities, or suddenly awakened to your potential, you have discovered your mind to be your greatest weapon.

Mental Affinity
You gain the Mind word of power.

Mind over Matter
At Skill Rank 25, you learn how to use your mind to enhance your body. After resting, choose 1 skill. You have advantage on all checks made using that skill as long as you concentrate on the effect while performing the skill.

Telekinetic Combat
At Combat Rank 50, you become able to manipulate weapons with your mind alone. You may wield 1 weapon at a time through sheer telekinesis. It does not require any hands to wield and if it is normally a melee weapon, you may use part of your movement to move the weapon around the battlefield up to 30ft from you and make attacks with it. You may use your Magic modifier for attack and damage rolls made with this weapon instead of Strength or Accuracy. This weapon remains wielded telekinetically as long as you concentrate on it.

Empath
At Skill Rank 75, you learn how to affect the emotional state of other creatures. As an action, you may touch a creature and attempt to alter their emotions. The target must succeed on a Resistance check against your passive Magic score or you one of the following effects of your choice happens to the target. The effect lasts for 1 minute and requires concentration unless otherwise noted:

Calm: The target is calmed. Emotions of anger, joy, grief, or fear are quelled. This effect is instantaneous and does not prevent the emotion from resurfacing, but will dispel any magic affecting their emotional state.
Anger: The target becomes enraged. They are more likely to be hostile towards all creatures and have advantage on Resistance checks made against being charmed.
Joy: The target feels intense joy. They are less likely to be hostile towards all creatures and have disadvantage on Resistance checks made against being charmed.
Grief: The target is overwhelmed with grief. They take no actions on their next turn, then the effect ends.
Fear: The target becomes frightened. They must spend their next turn fleeing as far from you as they can, then the effect ends.
A creature that succeeds on resisting this manipulation becomes guarded and is immune to this effect for the next 24hrs.

Mental Fortitude
At Combat Rank 100, you own a mental presence more powerful than the minds that would do you harm. You become immune to being magically charmed or frightened and cannot have your thoughts read.

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-15, 07:19 AM
This is very close to what I was. My desire for this mostly came out of me examining D&D 5e and PF2e and realizing that I don't like how either system implemented backgrounds - if you're going to include a major element in character creation that grants useful adventuring skills, I think it's silly not to let you develop that skillset as you continue adventuring. PF2e does this a little bit with ancestry feats, but backgrounds still just give you bonuses at 1st level and then never matter again.

Would you (or anyone) be able to recommend some systems like this?

Sadly I can't think of any systems which use it off the top of my head. Legend does it but also uses classes, so each class has three tracks and to multiclass you deal one of your tracks with another class. But as for systems that do it in a more free form manner, I haven't a scooby.

Bare in mind that I actually like my class systems more archetypal, so I don't seek such systems out, and that one of my favourite systems is Modern AGE partially due to it's classless level system (although the Stunt mechanic is a bigger factor).

Plus you're still going to have the issue that going Barbarian/Alchemist is going to make you less optimal than going Barbarian/Soldier, unless abilities are really carefully designed so that two archetypes doing the same thing give a smaller power boost.

So I'm going to suggest looking at some of the less complex classless systems out there instead. Because they're more common, and allow as much secondary skilling as you want.


Yes, I'll agree that it's a problem that D&D backgrounds make so little impact on your character, but honestly it makes sense. Most D&D characters in modern games are full time mercenaries rarely doing their old day jobs, so they'd realistically primarily advance as mercenaries (although I'll admit that this isn't universal). It's neither good or bad, it's just the kind of character and world the system is designed for.

And honestly, it can be hard to come up with more than one Ability for some backgrounds, so unless you're going to be very restrictive it might be better to treat backgrounds as a tech tree. But at that point it starts getting a lot more complicated.

MoiMagnus
2021-04-15, 11:56 AM
And honestly, it can be hard to come up with more than one Ability for some backgrounds, so unless you're going to be very restrictive it might be better to treat backgrounds as a tech tree. But at that point it starts getting a lot more complicated.

That's because most of good ideas you could come up with are used by feats.
Guild Artisan (Cook) -> Chef feat
Noble -> Inspiring leader?
Sage -> Arcane initiate or Ritual caster, etc
Soldier -> Any of the fighting feats
Even the racial feats could be put under a "traditional" background where you remained in your nation for all your childhood.

Your background could reasonably have "every 4 levels, get an ASI or a feat, to reflect the advancement of your carrier" instead of it being on the class (Fighter and Rogue still have their bonus ASI/feat in the class).

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-15, 12:20 PM
That's because most of good ideas you could come up with are used by feats.
Guild Artisan (Cook) -> Chef feat
Noble -> Inspiring leader?
Sage -> Arcane initiate or Ritual caster, etc
Soldier -> Any of the fighting feats
Even the racial feats could be put under a "traditional" background where you remained in your nation for all your childhood.

Your background could reasonably have "every 4 levels, get an ASI or a feat, to reflect the advancement of your carrier" instead of it being on the class (Fighter and Rogue still have their bonus ASI/feat in the class).

Actually,splitting Feats into Adventurer Feats and Background Talents would not be the worrst move for D&D 5.5e or 6e. Hand out Geats via classes as a balancing factor, then just let players pick Noble Contacts, CheWhich might be something to do f, Ritual Caster, or whatever else every X levels.

Which might be an idea to use in my attempted expanded 5e backgrounds document.

quinron
2021-04-15, 04:52 PM
That's because most of good ideas you could come up with are used by feats.
Guild Artisan (Cook) -> Chef feat
Noble -> Inspiring leader?
Sage -> Arcane initiate or Ritual caster, etc
Soldier -> Any of the fighting feats
Even the racial feats could be put under a "traditional" background where you remained in your nation for all your childhood.

Your background could reasonably have "every 4 levels, get an ASI or a feat, to reflect the advancement of your carrier" instead of it being on the class (Fighter and Rogue still have their bonus ASI/feat in the class).

This is a great idea. Honestly, given enough time and assuming I didn't find a system that hit this nail on the head, I'd probably have ended up homebrewing something far more complicated and inelegant that achieved the same result.


Sadly I can't think of any systems which use it off the top of my head. Legend does it but also uses classes, so each class has three tracks and to multiclass you deal one of your tracks with another class. But as for systems that do it in a more free form manner, I haven't a scooby.

This sounds pretty good to me - I've found that my players tend to prefer a more fixed, class-based system. Though I moved recently, so it's entirely possible the next group I can get together will prefer something more freeform...


Actually,splitting Feats into Adventurer Feats and Background Talents would not be the worrst move for D&D 5.5e or 6e. Hand out Geats via classes as a balancing factor, then just let players pick Noble Contacts, CheWhich might be something to do f, Ritual Caster, or whatever else every X levels.

Which might be an idea to use in my attempted expanded 5e backgrounds document.

I'd love a feature like this. I feel like PF2e went the wrong direction with the ancestry feats - I feel like if I'm running a dwarf fighter who used to be a gladiator, I'm much more interested in how his gladiatorial experience affected his fighting than how growing up as a dwarf affected it.

Definitely keep me on the contact list when you finish that doc - I'd be very interested to see what you come up with.

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-15, 05:49 PM
This sounds pretty good to me - I've found that my players tend to prefer a more fixed, class-based system. Though I moved recently, so it's entirely possible the next group I can get together will prefer something more freeform...

I'm not sure if ye olde forum threads from it's development are still around, but voila (https://www.hedra.group/legend).


I'd love a feature like this. I feel like PF2e went the wrong direction with the ancestry feats - I feel like if I'm running a dwarf fighter who used to be a gladiator, I'm much more interested in how his gladiatorial experience affected his fighting than how growing up as a dwarf affected it.

Definitely keep me on the contact list when you finish that doc - I'd be very interested to see what you come up with.

Don't hold your breadth, it's on the back burner while I work on my classic SF RPG Hyperintelligent Hamsters from Beyond the Stars.