New UA: Draconic Options [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

MaxWilson

2021-04-14, 01:19 PM

https://media.wizards.com/2021/downloads/Unearthed-Arcana-2021-Draconic-Options.pdf

Revised Dragonborn and Kobolds, new feats, and new spells!

(1) Dragonborn are unexciting, but at least the implementation is better than the PHB Dragonborn. If someone wanted to play a Dragonborn in my games using one of these instead of the PHB Dragonborn, I'd shrug and let them. But I don't love how they treat Chromatic/Metallic/Gem separately, e.g. only Chromatics get elemental damage resistance feats. That doesn't align with the actual dragon lore, so in practice I'd just merge them all back into one race and let the players choose whatever fits them.

(2) Gift of the Metallic Dragon is pretty crummy. Getting to use your reaction PROF times per long rest to add +d4 to someone's AC within 5', when someone is hit by an attack... the problem is that d4 is unreliable and there's a high chance of wasting it (about half the time if you use it on any hit by 4 or less), and it doesn't scale the way Defensive Duelist does. It's not so terrible that no one would ever take it, but it won't be as good as they are expecting either.

(3) Gift of the Chromatic Dragon is pretty strong on the other hand. In practice it's permanent resistance to all elemental damage, just like Absorb Elements, plus a no-concentration damage boost on weapon attacks. Probably a good alternative to GWM for certain kinds of warriors, e.g. Beast Barbarians.

(4) Gift of the Gem Dragon is awkward to use because its main effect is triggered as a reaction to taking damage, instead of proactively as a bonus action like Telekinetic. Looks weak to me, hard to leverage synergistically.

(5) Draconic Transformation is pretty trash, like most transformation spells. Blindsight is great, but it's not 7th level spell great. Flying speed is... okay for a wizard, good for a gish that needs to melee flying monsters. 3d8 of breath weapon as a bonus action, meh. For a spell that isn't accessible until 13th level and costs your concentration, I'd hope for more. If it were a straight 1 minute duration (no concentration) it would be exciting for a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 13, but I can think of better things to concentrate on in a tough fight against a big monster (like Wall of Force or Telekinesis), and the breath weapon is only significant against hordes of smaller fire-resistant/immune monsters.

(6) Fizban's Platinum Shield is actually quite good, worthy of 6th level status. Being able to protect others, plus +2 AC and Dex saves from half cover, plus Evasion--it's what Primordial Ward should have been.

(7) Flame Stride is thematically weird (fiery feet makes you faster?) but is overall quite good, worthy of 3rd level status. It's sort of Zephyr Strike + Expeditious Retreat + offensive AoE, all rolled into one, with a good action economy. I would take this on some wizards (especially dwarf or halfling wizards) and might consider taking it on an Eldritch Knight Sharpshooter as a level 13 replacement for Expeditious Retreat.

(8) Icingdeath's Frost: probably my favorite of the spells in this UA, from a powergaming perspective. No-concentration immobilizer/action denial that also does some damage. Since it's 2nd level, it competes with Web. Weaker effects than Web but the no-concentration aspect means you can use it to e.g. hold enemies inside your Sickening Radiance for longer. Has a typo in it: it's both a 15' cone and a 30' cone, depending upon which line you read. Might be a bit overpowered as a 30' cone. Upcasting isn't worth it.

(9) Nathair's Mischief, also pretty strong crowd control for a 2nd level spell, like a moveable Web. I hate the flavor though--cycling through the same 4 "random" practical joke effects will get old very quickly. I feel like they didn't think this one through. Should have named it Nathair's Tired Cliches. Most interesting to Bards because they get it but don't get Web.

(10) Raulothim's Psychic Lance: quite good, maybe OP. Detect invisible enemies without expending a spell slot, incapacitate for 1 turn (Int save negates) while doing 10d6 psychic damage, no concentration cost. I would drop the bit about "if the named target is not within range... the spell slot is not expended" bit. Compare with Blight (8d8 necrotic, Con save, no incapacitation rider). It might be best to raise this spell to 5th or 6th level, on par with Synaptic Static, although personally I'd allow a player to research a spell like this one down to 4th level using my spell optimization rules, since it's not more powerful than the best existing 4th level spells like Polymorph. Upcasting isn't worth it.

(11) Summon Draconic Spirit: breath weapon is meh (2d6, 30' cone) at first glance, but then you realize the breath weapon is rolled into the Multiattack so you'll be using it every round! It has reach and blindsight, and acquiring one of its resistances is potentially interesting, if you have good enough Constitution saves to be willing to take damage. Not better than Summon Celestial (especially since it can't be Planar Bound for more duration) and not better than Conjure Elemental (the spirit is fragile, 50 HP unless upcast) but overall pretty good given that flying + reach weapons lets it avoid many types of damage. Both this and Draconic Transformation are available to druid/sorc/wiz and since upcasting this spell to 7th level gets you 3 attacks for 1d6+11 (14.5) plus 2d6 (7) of breath weapon plus whatever you do with your own action (see: Raulothim's Psychic Lance)... tell me again what is the point of Draconic Transformation?

RogueJK

2021-04-14, 01:19 PM

You dont need to know the name... there is just a bonus function if you do.

Good catch. I misread it initially.

So yeah, that makes it more generally applicable, as a potentially powerful save-or-suck straight damage spell. Especially good for Enchanter Wizards, as noted, for the free Twin.

Gyor

2021-04-14, 01:20 PM

I don't know if any of this is balanced, but I love the flavor.

Draconomicon on the way?

Outside of the original 3 core books (PHB, MM, and DMG), they have said they won't be reusing titles from past editions.

But will be a book where Dragons feature prominently, yes, but probably not exclusively Dragons.

x3n0n

2021-04-14, 01:24 PM

I totally missed this last time: the Feywild UA and this one both allow +1/+1/+1 as valid racial ASIs in addition to +2/+1.

I'm mostly a fan. These Dragonborn seem to be basically on par with "normal" races now.

The racial breath weapons make me wonder if they'll significantly change the UA Monk's breath weapons, since they're so similar.

It's interesting that most of the named spells refer to Forgotten Realms dragons; I had figured this would be a Dragonlance setting book with draconic player options.

Aett_Thorn

2021-04-14, 01:25 PM

That's a fun UA! Some definite balance tweaks needed, as always, but I like the flavor.

1) Again, not a fan that they don't give us base stat adjustments for tables that don't use Tasha's optional rules, but this seems to be the trend

2) These Dragonborn are definitely better than the PHB ones, and I'd never take a PHB one over these new choices

3) GEM DRAGONS!!!!!!

4) I like that Kobold's get a choice of a feature that reflects their ties to their ancestors, but wish that the Draconic Roar wasn't tied to proficiency bonus (use 1/SR or something). And again with the small races getting 30-ft movement speed. At this point, just errata the speed for Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings!

5) Feats are fun, though I wish that the Gift of the Chromatic Dragon had you choose a type and set it. Seems odd to be able to choose each time.

6) Spells are fun but as always probably have some balance issues here or there. What jumps out at me is that Flame Stride has no attack or save associated with it. It does minor damage, so it's not a huge deal, but that's automatic fire damage each round if you want. A 9th-level casting can do 7d6 damage each round. Again, not overpowered, but could definitely have uses.

Makorel

2021-04-14, 01:27 PM

I've never heard of a gem dragon before. Are those like Astral dragons? Regardless it's nice to have dragon options to fill out the rest of the damage types we were missing.

Aett_Thorn

2021-04-14, 01:36 PM

I've never heard of a gem dragon before. Are those like Astral dragons? Regardless it's nice to have dragon options to fill out the rest of the damage types we were missing.

Gem dragons were in older editions. You had Metallic Dragons (good-aligned), Chromatic Dragons (evil-aligned), and Gem Dragons (neutral-aligned). In 1e and 2e (not sure about later editions), they also had psionic powers and used those in addition to normal dragon spellcasting.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2021-04-14, 01:38 PM

• I adore the new Kobold compared to the one in Volo’s Guide. Draconic Roar is mechanically very similar to Grovel, Cower, and Beg, but without the annoying flavor. You can also now get WIS-based Shocking Grasp on a Tempest Cleric without needing a Ravnica background, something I know optimizers will enjoy. There is a ridiculous' oversight on the tail attack, though, as it says, “1d6 bludgeoning damage, as opposed to the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.”

Tempest Cleric is the first thing I thought of when reading the new Kobold, and Gift of the Chromatic Dragon is a decent substitute for Elemental Weapon (via the Ravnica background) if you want to add lightning damage to all your attacks. Granted it's not a requirement (but the secondary effect is totally worth it), and you'll still need Magic Initiate for BB if you use Kobold to take Shocking Grasp, but more options is always better for optimization.

MaxWilson

2021-04-14, 01:41 PM

Note that Raulothim’s Psychic Lance is an Enchantment spell, so a level 10+ Enchanter could "Twin" it for free, provided there are two enemies whose names you know within range.

I don't think it's that broken... The high damage is mitigated by a) being save-or-suck with a chance to do absolutely nothing if they make their INT save, and b) requiring that you know the target's name, whereas you often won't know enemies' names and/or many enemies won't even have names.

It's powerful, but only narrowly applicable. Potentially good for a Wizard to have in his back pocket just in case the appropriate opportunity arises, but not necessarily something I'd take on a Sorcerer with more limited spells known, for example.

You don't have to know the creature's name, you just have to be able to see the creature OR know its name. Good catch on the Enchanter--I can see this spell, if adopted, boosting the popularity of Enchanters quite a bit. No-concentration + 10d6 psychic damage + action denial + only 4th level + two targets = good.

I don't think a single one of those abilities make me think "Yeah, that's something that fits the kobold fluff." Draconic Roar is certainly mechanically what Grovel, Cower, and Beg should have been to be a useful ability. But the given fluff loses what made the kobolds unique. I don't see the great underdogs in this.

Making the Dragonborn Breath Weapon usable as only an attack and more times per rest is certainly one way to solve the scaling issues. Expending two uses to deal double damage to roughly 27 at 5th level is not bad at all. 36 at 11th, and 45 at 17th is very respectable for an AOE. I think I'd personally like it fewer times but always having the damage scale of the double burst. But that's just personal preference. I like the idea of a huge draconic breath weapon more than rapid-fire spitting. Even though the latter is probably more useful overall.

I don't get the sense that expending two uses in one Attack action is intended to be legal.

Kobolds were always braver than most other species, though. They're the kind to jump into a monster's maw if they think it'll choke the monster and save their home.

The groveling ability didn't mean they were cowards, just that they know how to exploit those who think kobolds are pathetic weaklings.

If it had been named "Distract" instead of "Grovel, Cower, and Beg" it might not have turned off so many players.

Gyor

2021-04-14, 01:41 PM

Yep. Fizban the Fabulous.

But Joe Mangianello had mentioned in a video a month or two back that he had been given a sneak peak of some of the Dragonlance material for 5E. So we already knew that was coming...

Despite Fizban being mentioned, this UA actually rules out a Dragonlance Campaign Book.

There are Dragonborn variant races, but NO DRACONIANS, yes there is a Metallic Dragonborn variant, but it doesn't match up to Draconians at all. If it was Draconians there would be 5 Dragonborn variants, all based on corrupted Metallic Dragon Breeds (Gold Dragon, Bronze, Silver, Brass, Copper), with specific names and powers, which aren't present.

Also all the named spells refer to Forgotten Realms lore except Fizban. Icinkingdeath is the nickname of the Dragon Drizzt slew. The one that casts a psychic lance is a an FR Gem Dragon. Nathiar is a Forgotten Realms God of Fey Dragons (which is why Clerics should also get access to that spell).

So either this is another Monster book with player options like VGTM and MTOFs (and as such also including the Feywild races) OR its a Faerun Campaign World Book because unlike Dragonlance, the Forgotten Realms HAS Gem Dragons and Feyish Dragons.

The AFR set could confirm this if it has Fizban and Mordenkainen as Planeswalker cards.

Cygnia

2021-04-14, 01:41 PM

3rd edition had 'em too.

GooeyChewie

2021-04-14, 01:46 PM

(2) Gift of the Metallic Dragon is pretty crummy. Getting to use your reaction PROF times per long rest to add +d4 to someone's AC within 5', when someone is hit by an attack... the problem is that d4 is unreliable and there's a high chance of wasting it (about half the time if you use it on any hit by 4 or less), and it doesn't scale the way Defensive Duelist does. It's not so terrible that no one would ever take it, but it won't be as good as they are expecting either.

I feel like the real reason to take the feat is the Cure Wounds, particularly for classes who have spell levels but don't have it on their list. Wizard, Sorcerer (non-Divine Soul) and Warlock (non-Celestial) might want a pinch of self-healing. I agree the 1d4 AC boost is situational at best, an unreliable even in the right situation.

Waazraath

2021-04-14, 01:50 PM

The gem dragons were the psionic dragons iirc.

MaxWilson

2021-04-14, 01:54 PM

I feel like the real reason to take the feat is the Cure Wounds, particularly for classes who have spell levels but don't have it on their list. Wizard, Sorcerer (non-Divine Soul) and Warlock (non-Celestial) might want a pinch of self-healing. I agree the 1d4 AC boost is situational at best, an unreliable even in the right situation.

Eh, maybe in some cases. I see Cure Wounds popping up on lots of PCs anyway via Cleric 1 dips, Celestialock or Fleshlock levels (Cthulhu 5E), Bards, etc., even though it's just a fringe benefit for those classes. But, my experience is just one data point out of many, and maybe some people will take the feat exactly for that reason as you predict.

However, in those cases (Wizard without Cleric 1 and Sorcerer or Warlock without Paladin levels) I would suggest that the +d4 AC boost is even worse than otherwise because you won't want to be on the front lines protecting people in the first place. It's an anti-synergy between the two halves of the feat. Maybe it's deliberate, but neither half of the feat seems strong enough to justify the cost on its own, and they don't work together.

Silly Name

2021-04-14, 02:02 PM

Outside of the original 3 core books (PHB, MM, and DMG), they have said they won't be reusing titles from past editions.

But will be a book where Dragons feature prominently, yes, but probably not exclusively Dragons.

Naming convention of non-setting splats so far has been "[Famous Character]'s [Noun] of/to [Thing]", so I'd expect it to follow this pattern. Hoping it's Raistlin's turn.

Protolisk

2021-04-14, 02:05 PM

Was the Gift of the Metallic Dragon supposed to be a half feat? The part with Cure Wounds says it uses the spellcasting ability you "increase", but there is no increase part of it.

I wonder if the Chromatic gift feat was also supposed to be one.

Unoriginal

2021-04-14, 02:06 PM

Naming convention of non-setting splats so far has been "[Famous Character]'s [Noun] of/to [Thing]", so I'd expect it to follow this pattern. Hoping it's Raistlin's turn.

Tiamat's Orb of Everything.

RogueJK

2021-04-14, 02:08 PM

Was the Gift of the Metallic Dragon supposed to be a half feat? The part with Cure Wounds says it uses the spellcasting ability you "increase", but there is no increase part of it.

I don't see mention of an increase on that one. Instead, it states: "The spell’s spellcasting ability is Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma when you cast it with this feat (choose when you gain the feat)".

So no half feat or ability increase. Just pick one when you take the feat.

Whereas Gift of the Gem Dragon is a half feat, and the Telekinetic Energy ability's DC references "the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat".

Man_Over_Game

2021-04-14, 02:15 PM

Eh, maybe in some cases. I see Cure Wounds popping up on lots of PCs anyway via Cleric 1 dips, Celestialock or Fleshlock levels (Cthulhu 5E), Bards, etc., even though it's just a fringe benefit for those classes. But, my experience is just one data point out of many, and maybe some people will take the feat exactly for that reason as you predict.

However, in those cases (Wizard without Cleric 1 and Sorcerer or Warlock without Paladin levels) I would suggest that the +d4 AC boost is even worse than otherwise because you won't want to be on the front lines protecting people in the first place. It's an anti-synergy between the two halves of the feat. Maybe it's deliberate, but neither half of the feat seems strong enough to justify the cost on its own, and they don't work together.

It's a smart play. Anti-synergies, as long as each effect is strong on their own, means you make characters more versatile and have a more developed theme without increasing their power level. It's like the opposite of specializing, which is selling one option to improve another. Done correctly, you get more than what you want and it doesn't change much in the long run. It's how dwarves make good druids and barbarians, but not too good.

Darthnazrael

2021-04-14, 02:17 PM

Gem Dragonborn seem like phenomenal Moon Druids. Essentially all of your features work in Wild Shape, and are useful. The Breath weapon is tricky, since it requires the attack action, but if you're not in range the bite/claw/etc., you'll be glad you have it as an option.

Protolisk

2021-04-14, 02:20 PM

I don't see mention of an increase on that one. Instead, it states: "The spell’s spellcasting ability is Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma when you cast it with this feat (choose when you gain the feat)".

So no half feat or ability increase. Just pick one when you take the feat.

Whereas Gift of the Gem Dragon is a half feat, and the Telekinetic Energy ability's DC references "the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat".

Looks like they updated it. I opened a version where it definitely has "the same as the ability score increased with this feat", but when I open it again via a new tab it just says to choose the score.

Nidgit

2021-04-14, 02:23 PM

I'm also not a huge fan of the flavor on Kobolds here. The abilities are mostly fine, sure, but the flavor doesn't match much existing stuff. I have a hard time picturing a Kobold's fearsome roar.

Draconic Transformation seems...okay. It's better than Mordenkainen's Sword, certainly, but that spell is infamously bad. Crown of Stars seems like a decent comparison: Concentration, a shorter duration, and less individual damage in exchange for AoE and bonus abilities.

Psychic Lance seems overtuned in comparison. Compared to Blight, it targets a better save, does comparable damage with a better damage type, has much greater range, AND has a powerful rider in exchange for being save-or-suck. A pretty clear upgrade.

My favorite spell is definitely Flame Stride, which is some dumb anime business I'm absolutely here for. Upcast this on a Horizon Walker and it's brilliant. I'd love to see this one available to Four Elements Monks as well since it would be both strong and thematically appropriate. Conditionally useful but looks like a lot of fun.

J-H

2021-04-14, 02:29 PM

Breath Weapon in an attack routine makes Dragonborn a lot better for martials. I'm glad they can finally do it more than 1/day.

The Metallic breath weapons are pretty powerful, probably a bit overtuned.

Gem Dragon is definitely the best - flight and unusual damage types. I'd see their damage cut to d6s.

Kobold options look OK, although I'd rather have claws than a tail. Roar is odd.

The feats are kind of meh, nothing attention-grabbing initially.

Flame Stride looks kind of fun. I'd give this to a 4 Elements Monk.

Icingdeath's Frost is way better than Snilloc's Snowball. I'm wary of the action cost it imposes.

Psychic Lance is pretty nice. I think it's about right balance-wise for the level it's at.

Draconic Spirit's damage looks a bit anemic, but it isn't. At 6th level:
Breath 2d6
Bite/claw 1d6+10 x 3
If everything hits, that's 5d6+30 (average 45) damage per round.
With AC 20 and 60hp - HP is the weak point, but it has some good elemental resistances.

MaxWilson

2021-04-14, 02:35 PM

Naming convention of non-setting splats so far has been "[Famous Character]'s [Noun] of/to [Thing]", so I'd expect it to follow this pattern. Hoping it's Raistlin's turn.

I'm still rooting for Erac's Cousin's Betrayal of Everything. Wish I could give credit but I can't remember who said it first.

Hasbro would never authorize that title though.

It's a smart play. Anti-synergies, as long as each effect is strong on their own, means you make characters more versatile and have a more developed theme without increasing their power level. It's like the opposite of specializing, which is selling one option to improve another. Done correctly, you get more than what you want and it doesn't change much in the long run. It's how dwarves make good druids and barbarians, but not too good.

... as long as you stick with PHB rules for dwarves instead of Tasha's.

I agree, antisynergies are good sometimes, but in this case my point is that the antisynergy leaves the overall feat too weak IMO to justify taking it for either use case. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see.

Millstone85

2021-04-14, 02:43 PM

PHB dragonborn get a line-shaped breath weapon if they are of black, blue, brass, bronze or copper draconic ancestry, or a cone-shaped breath weapon if they are of gold, green, red, silver or white draconic ancestry. This, I think, matches the various dragons in the MM.

But in this UA, dragonborn get a line-shaped breath weapon from any chromatic ancestry, or a cone-shaped breath weapon from any metallic ancestry. That for sure does not match MM dragons.

MaxWilson

2021-04-14, 02:45 PM

Millstone85

2021-04-14, 03:03 PM

To be fair, the metallic dragons are deliberately inconsistent as well, e.g. copper dragons have both a line breath weapon AND a cone.I don't see that as an inconsistency. Each metallic dragon gets two breath weapons: one that deals elemental damage and one that has a more "phaser set to stun" flavor. No reason they should have the same shape.

It is actually pretty cool how, in this UA, metallic dragonborn get a second breath weapon as well. Although there are only two options (one that pushes and one that incapacitates) and they are not connected to your exact choice of ancestry.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-14, 03:54 PM

Own thoughts to follow later today, spoilers: Hiho powercreep, race bloat and game fragmentation!

Eh, maybe in some cases. I see Cure Wounds popping up on lots of PCs anyway via Cleric 1 dips, Celestialock or Fleshlock levels (Cthulhu 5E), Bards, etc., even though it's just a fringe benefit for those classes. But, my experience is just one data point out of many, and maybe some people will take the feat exactly for that reason as you predict.

However, in those cases (Wizard without Cleric 1 and Sorcerer or Warlock without Paladin levels) I would suggest that the +d4 AC boost is even worse than otherwise because you won't want to be on the front lines protecting people in the first place. It's an anti-synergy between the two halves of the feat. Maybe it's deliberate, but neither half of the feat seems strong enough to justify the cost on its own, and they don't work together.

Being able to pick Cure Wounds up as a feat and choose your own casting stat is a big change from those examples though. V. Human and Custom Lineage both give the opportunity for a Wizard to get Int based Cure Wounds (backed by Arcane Recovery) without any progression delaying dips.

I don't think this is overall a huge problem, but this pick your own casting mod thing rubs me the wrong way when it feels like it should really be Cha (Dragons!) and imo it should be so easy to get stat synergistic healing spells on a Wizard, it dumps on class identity and power.

verbatim

2021-04-14, 04:07 PM

Despite Fizban being mentioned, this UA actually rules out a Dragonlance Campaign Book.

There are Dragonborn variant races, but NO DRACONIANS, yes there is a Metallic Dragonborn variant, but it doesn't match up to Draconians at all. If it was Draconians there would be 5 Dragonborn variants, all based on corrupted Metallic Dragon Breeds (Gold Dragon, Bronze, Silver, Brass, Copper), with specific names and powers, which aren't present.

Also all the named spells refer to Forgotten Realms lore except Fizban. Icinkingdeath is the nickname of the Dragon Drizzt slew. The one that casts a psychic lance is a an FR Gem Dragon. Nathiar is a Forgotten Realms God of Fey Dragons (which is why Clerics should also get access to that spell).

So either this is another Monster book with player options like VGTM and MTOFs (and as such also including the Feywild races) OR its a Faerun Campaign World Book because unlike Dragonlance, the Forgotten Realms HAS Gem Dragons and Feyish Dragons.

The AFR set could confirm this if it has Fizban and Mordenkainen as Planeswalker cards.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they scrapped the Dragonlance campaign setting book during the lawsuit and turned it into a Faerun campaign setting book with a heavy dragon focus instead.

Telwar

2021-04-14, 04:17 PM

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they scrapped the Dragonlance campaign setting book during the lawsuit and turned it into a Faerun campaign setting book with a heavy dragon focus instead.

Oh, that would be truly hilarious..."Yeah, it turns out that the Abeir of Abeir-Toril you guys were so mad about in 4e was really Dragonlance lololol."

x3n0n

2021-04-14, 04:17 PM

V. Human and Custom Lineage both give the opportunity for a Wizard to get Int based Cure Wounds (backed by Arcane Recovery) without any progression delaying dips.

I don't think this is overall a huge problem, but this pick your own casting mod thing rubs me the wrong way when it feels like it should really be Cha (Dragons!) and imo it should be so easy to get stat synergistic healing spells on a Wizard, it dumps on class identity and power.

To be fair, Artificer Initiate already exists in Tasha's and gives you Cure Wounds as an Int spell plus Guidance instead of the weird shielding thing. (It has its own clunkiness involving M components, but for pure power in the Wizard context I don't see how the draconic version is any more egregious.)

Sparky McDibben

2021-04-14, 04:47 PM

Gyor

2021-04-14, 04:52 PM

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they scrapped the Dragonlance campaign setting book during the lawsuit and turned it into a Faerun campaign setting book with a heavy dragon focus instead.

That is a distinct possibility, especially if they weren't very far along when the decision was made. It could also be AFR is going to have solid Dragon tribal theme to it, its symbol is a Dragons head after all. And some of the cards in Strixhaven and Kaldheim really seem to play up Dragon flavour despite neither set really being designed for Dragon Tribal, Kaldheim has 2 Dragons, Strixhaven has 5, but they all are different two colour combos, so hard to put more then 2 at most in the same deck with a few exceptions. So if they do a Faerun Campaign Book, they can reuse alot of that AFR art, we are talking hundreds of pieces of expensive art.

Either way its tied as the most likely book for these options.

Gyor

2021-04-14, 04:54 PM

Oh, that would be truly hilarious..."Yeah, it turns out that the Abeir of Abeir-Toril you guys were so mad about in 4e was really Dragonlance lololol."

LMFAO. Abeir really doesn't resemble Dragonlance at all, but that is still a funny thought.

Kane0

2021-04-14, 04:54 PM

jaappleton

2021-04-14, 05:32 PM

........do these Dragon races STILL not get Darkvision?

Sparky McDibben

2021-04-14, 05:52 PM

You’re not the only one. Where’s the cool ribbons? The out of combat utility? I’m seeing a lot of combat stuff here, and not much of it appears to be very original.

That said, its competent. It might not fill me with inspiration but for UA this looks pretty balanced and on first eyeball I wouldn’t have a problem allowing this to be added into my game.

Yeah, but it's been over half a decade since this edition came out. I want something that feels weird, that feels interesting. You could do the same thing they do with races that get inherent spellcasting by locking it behind higher levels (like how drow get darkness at 5th level).

Why can't I melt rocks and walls with my dragonfire, creating something that's not-quite-magma? Or inflict the charmed condition using my poison breath on them, using it as more of a narcotic than an airborne toxin? Why can't I blind someone with acid spit? Why can't I use my cold breath to freeze water? Or create something akin to a grease spell by making the floor icy? Why can't I use my lightning breath to stun someone?

Why can't I use my breath to try burn away someone's resistances? Why can't I channel my dragon-ness to cause awe or devotion? Why can't I spend a use of my dragon breath stuff to get truesight or heightened perception?

Even the damaging options aren't great - why is it only a 15 feet range?

This is all stuff it took me 15 minutes to come up with. Step up, WotC.

I'm just... yeah, it's balanced. Whoopee. I don't mean to sound like a grumpy grognard here, but I just want my players to do something more interesting. I've already got a barbarian who wants to do more than just say, "I attack."

(Sorry for the rant there, Kane0. Nothing on you, I'm just so tired of ancestry bloat. I just read Colville's the Illrigger class, and that is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. A knight of Hell? Hell (pun intended) yeah!)

Waterdeep Merch

2021-04-14, 06:03 PM

........do these Dragon races STILL not get Darkvision?

I am partly of the opinion that they handed out darkvision too easily to everyone in 5e. There should have been greater variance from the very start. Now it's more of an annoyance when that one person in the party doesn't have it, unless they figure out how to get their hands on Goggles of Night Vision to completely eliminate the problem again.

I also believe that if they are going to hand out darkvision willy-nilly like they did, dragonborn should absolutely not be an exception. It's very silly.

Sepaulchre

2021-04-14, 06:11 PM

Man the new Kobold looks fun to play. And by fun to play, I mean Draconic Roar looks busted.

Compare

Draconic Roar: As a bonus action you let out a draconic roar at your enemies within 10 feet of you. Until the end of your next turn, you and your allies have advantage on attack rolls against any of those enemies who could hear the roar. You can use this trait a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

with

Fighting Spirit: Starting at 3rd level, your intensity in battle can shield you and help you strike true. As a bonus action on your turn, you can give yourself advantage on all weapon attack rolls until the end of the current turn. When you do so, you also gain 5 temporary hit points. The number of hit points increases when you reach certain levels in this class, increasing to 10 at 10th level and 15 at 15th level.

You can use this feature three times. You regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

So yeah. It's a racial feature that's arguably much better than a decent Fighter subclass's premier feature. And it has a comparable number of uses from level 1-20. I hope it stays though because it would be hella fun to play, not only for the Kobold but also for the whole party that gets to ride on that sweet unconditional advantage.

Telwar

2021-04-14, 06:19 PM

After looking at this, I'm just confused by the kobold's Draconic Roar. When have they ever roared? I realize it's literally just the same thing as their previous ability with a new name, but...it doesn't fit them, at all.

Dragonborn look fine. They were a little weak to begin with, so the improvements shouldn't be overpowering.

And would it kill them to add spells to clerics? I haven't seen a new cleric spell since Xanathar's.

clash

2021-04-14, 06:20 PM

Sepaulchre

2021-04-14, 06:54 PM

Ha, I actually unhighlighted that because I thought it would be too much! But yeah, it’s wild. But it’s UA for a reason I guess.

MaxWilson

2021-04-14, 07:12 PM

Being able to pick Cure Wounds up as a feat and choose your own casting stat is a big change from those examples though. V. Human and Custom Lineage both give the opportunity for a Wizard to get Int based Cure Wounds (backed by Arcane Recovery) without any progression delaying dips.

At the risk of repeating myself, I see your point but I see Cure Wounds showing up already as a fringe benefit so it doesn't strike me as power creep. There are pure class builds like the Iron Wizard who prioritize wizard spell progression, but they tend to be starved for ASIs already and are IMO unlikely to want to invest an ASI in Cure Wounds, compared to all the other goodies available via ASIs like better initiative and blindsight (I'm assuming that anyone who plays with Post-Tasha's UA probably also plays with Tasha's feats). Not to mention the fact that those playing with Tasha's racial options can Cure Wounds AS A WIZARD SPELL (eligible for Spell Mastery) via Mark of Healing without even compromising their Int +2 bonus, plus an effective +1 to concentration saves from halfling Luck.

Bottom Line: Cure Wounds plus an antisynergistic, limited use AC boost does not seem a particularly strong feat.

Gyor

2021-04-14, 07:22 PM

Im wondering if they axed the Draconic Monk in favor of these racial options. If they did, that’s a shame. Really like that Monk. Hope they didn’t.

———

On to the broader topic:

Had a feeling a UA was on the way. Didn’t know the topic but it felt like we were due.

Like the Kobold.

If you look back at the PHB, there’s numerous gray side text boxes. Mentions of the Death Domain, Oathbreaker Paladin, Deurgar.... All things we have seen. And one more:

Draconian. Which we have never gotten.

Curious if this is their answer, after all these years, or if there’s another race that’s dedicated to Draconian which we have not seen yet.

We still don't have Draconians, their mechanics do not resemble Draconians at all, 4e actually did playable Draconian variants of Dragonborn, even updating expectation for Tasha's 5e, these new Dragonborn don't resemble Draconians at all in race features or lore. These aren't corrupted Metallic Dragons, these are Dragonborn who are close to a particular type of Dragon breed in a very generalized way.

And Dragonlance doesn't have Gem Dragons at all. And Dragonlance doesn't have a Chromatic equivalent to Draconians (to my knowledge).

Thunderous Mojo

2021-04-14, 07:27 PM

The gem dragons were the psionic dragons iirc.

If we start up Mr. Peabody's Wayback machine, Gem Dragons, as detailed in The Dragon....( similar to Facebook, the "The" was later dropped), were conceived of as the dragons with a neutral alignment.

They were only 50% likely to have psionics, in The Dragon article, and also had a good chance of being spellcasting dragons with access to M/U, Clerical, and Druid spells.

(it is almost inconceivable I remember this and the Ed Greenwood article about Magic Gates that appeared in the same issue of The Dragon...freaking oddities of memory 🤷🏻)

Essentially they came about because after 6 years had passed from AD&D being first published, players had killed everything in the Monster Manual, twice.

In a way Korvin Starmast is directly responsible for Gem Dragons😉🃏

Shepsquared

2021-04-14, 07:39 PM

Speaking of gem dragons, I would've sworn that Sardior was Tiamat & Bahamut's brother, not their son. Which setting is this lore for anyway?

JadedDM

2021-04-14, 07:43 PM

And Dragonlance doesn't have Gem Dragons at all. And Dragonlance doesn't have a Chromatic equivalent to Draconians (to my knowledge).

There are actually two Chromatic equivalents to Draconians in Dragonlance.

Noble Draconians (https://dragonlance.fandom.com/wiki/Noble_Draconian) (born from corrupted chromatic dragon eggs, but they turned out Good instead of Evil) and Dragonspawn (https://dragonlance.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonspawn) (created by combining a human with a draconian by a Dragon Overlord).

However, I'd agree that none of these new dragonborn don't really resemble draconians, noble draconians or dragonspawn.

Luccan

2021-04-14, 08:03 PM

I don't know if new rules for Dragonborn rules out Dragonlance or not. Draconians don't have to be a PC, but even then it's not like WotC is afraid to change significant portions of a setting's history and lore in order to accommodate the New Thing We're Doing. Both Tieflings and Dragonborn themselves were changed quite a bit for 4e and haven't really gone back. They'd probably need an in-universe explanation in this case since the draw of the setting is largely the books, but I'm not sure the lack of explicit Draconian PC rules is a sure sign of anything.

Hael

2021-04-14, 08:08 PM

This is a fun UA. My biggest issue is with the feats:

1) Gift of the chromatic dragon is okish, but just barely so for a full feat. First of all the damage and duration of the damage rider are meh. It clogs up a bonus action for a d4 (compare this to say getting hex from a feat). The resistance is good though. However scaling with prof really makes this only worthwhile in the tier3-4 range, so you're looking at a feat that most people will never see. I would prefer if this was ramped up in power/duration and the draconic element was a prerequisite (like elven accuracy), and frankly it probably needs a third rider to make this worth a full feat.

2) Gift of the metallic dragon is just bad. Bad enough that I wouldn't want it even if it was a half-feat. Healing (with few exceptions) is pretty underpowered in 5e, and that's with features that enhance its use.. The classes for which this would be wanted, already have access to healing, so I just don't see it. The reaction is very mediocre with a fair amount of chance to not be used at all. Scratch this feat, I don't think its salvageable as written.

3) Gift of the Gem dragon. I was trying to decide if it would be OP if the reaction was simply unlimited usage. And I decided that yes, but just barely, and only b/c its a half-feat, and i'm not even sure if that's true. This feat doesn't scale well at all, will be resisted by a great number of high level monsters for which the damage is barely passable, when you need it the most and is only triggered once you've already taken damage. Fixing this would likely require putting a scaling element (2d8 + 1/2 your class lvl for instance), and upping the amount of times it could be used.

TyGuy

2021-04-14, 08:12 PM

I would play the old kobold over this one and this new chromatic dragonborn over the old one. But I'd ask for my fire breath to be a 15' cone again.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-14, 08:22 PM

To be fair, Artificer Initiate already exists in Tasha's and gives you Cure Wounds as an Int spell plus Guidance instead of the weird shielding thing. (It has its own clunkiness involving M components, but for pure power in the Wizard context I don't see how the draconic version is any more egregious.)

An example already existing doesn't justify more instances being created, the Artificer feat is already something I'm not fond of since their spell list is such a mash of Arcane and Divine to begin with.

Besides that though it opens up more options, someone might not allow Artificers (and related things) in a game they want to run for theme reasons, but that game could be dragon heavy *insert new sourcebook here* or the player might just want more support abiltiies.

At the risk of repeating myself, I see your point but I see Cure Wounds showing up already as a fringe benefit so it doesn't strike me as power creep. There are pure class builds like the Iron Wizard who prioritize wizard spell progression, but they tend to be starved for ASIs already and are IMO unlikely to want to invest an ASI in Cure Wounds, compared to all the other goodies available via ASIs like better initiative and blindsight (I'm assuming that anyone who plays with Post-Tasha's UA probably also plays with Tasha's feats). Not to mention the fact that those playing with Tasha's racial options can Cure Wounds AS A WIZARD SPELL (eligible for Spell Mastery) via Mark of Healing without even compromising their Int +2 bonus, plus an effective +1 to concentration saves from halfling Luck.

Bottom Line: Cure Wounds plus an antisynergistic, limited use AC boost does not seem a particularly strong feat.

I just want to reiterate that my stance is 'this is annoying and unneeded creep/toe stepping' not 'this will bust the game wide open.' That said:

-Cure Wounds when picked up as a Fringe Benefit is often using a tertiary stat (like the Cleric dip on a Wizard), greatly reducing the value of the spell.

-Iron Wizard is a terrible example, you know who else prioritises straight Wizard progression? People just playing Wizards without trying to achieve some niche benefit. That build in particular has both the 4th and 8th ASI dedicated (which imo, doesn't prioritise Wizard effectiveness in the least), it obviously won't try and fit a feat like this in. The examples I gave were expicitly V. Human and Custom Lineage because of how easy and early they work feats into builds.

-Mark of Healing assumes that all books are equally in play, Eberron races are one of the more stand out choices to use in non-Eberron games and can easily be rejected based on not fitting in. That's not even counting yes but allowance, like in my games Dragonmarks don't add spells to lists at all. Even if you grab it as a spell from the mark, it's still not as good since the free casting remains tied to Wisdom regardless what the optional rule from Tasha's says. (Side note, I'm not considering Spell Mastery here, because it's a mid Tier 4 feature that will be irrelevant to most people)

Side note on the antisynergy of the AC bump:

I'm not seeing why it's antisynergistic at all? I mean this would only be really bad in a game where the DM rolls behind the screen and just tells you you're hit. Any table that rolls in the open (common on VTT ime) will see if they're hit by just one.

If an attack hits your AC or the AC of an ally, you can burn this to guaranteed make it miss, saving yourself a 1st level slot if you're a Shield caster (and navigating around enemy casters if they're in play), and still having a pretty good shot of negating it if it's a hit by 2.

I see that feat in particular going very nicely on something like a Banneret, or a Paladin (freeing up a slot and prepared spell).

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-14, 08:58 PM

And would it kill them to add spells to clerics? I haven't seen a new cleric spell since Xanathar's.

Did you skip Tasha's? It's got two of them, Summon Celestial being pretty powerful (these new "summon" spells are pretty cool all around). Spirit Shroud is much worse for Cleric than the other classes that can choose it though.

On topic - I'm more or less okay with the up and down skew as far as power level goes here, some options are a bit on the weaker side and some obviously a bit on the stronger side. I think Draconic Transformation is the only stand out spell here that I feel is so far on the weak side for a 7th level spell that it's going to give Mordenkainen's Sword company.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-14, 09:28 PM

Posting this before I read the thread to date

Wow, there is a lot to talk about.

Dragonborn:

This is just a raw improvement on every level. The old dragonborn (in the PHB) had a 2d6, action, breath weapon and resistance. And they were limited to the five options. Now, there are 10 options and more resistance to go around, plus the damage is improved. I like the change to making them an attack action, opens up a lot of options and makes this useful for the classic melee Dragonborn builds.

One thing I would change for certain, is I would make the cone or the line an option. Pick when you get the race, and you stick with it. I also... man I don't like Brass being on the list. This is a minor minor quibble, but it is playing second fiddle to gold and they are identical. That bugs me.

Another thing I'm not sold on, I'm not sure about prof per day. I might prefer something like 3 per short rest. I want this to feel like a tool they can pull out with some reliability. That might be too powerful, but I want them to feel like using their breath is a go to choice.

Then each of them gets 1 new ability (with Gem getting two)

Chromatics get to use an action to be immune for 10 minutes, and I love this. This is bad-assery that I want, to be able to use this to just stroll into a volcanic heart or something similar immune to the elemental forces. That screams dragon. 1/day feels appropriate too.

Metallics.... get jipped I think. They get a 1/day second breath. Not that they can't be potentially powerful options. Incapacitated can buy a round of safety from whatever failed, and the push back is nice since it is far enough away to be an escape button, but.... I don't know. It may grow on me. But it feels like it is very situationally useful and is going to get saved for "emergencies".

Gems get two. 30 ft telepathy (one-way, but I'm going to ignore that just like I do for GOOlocks) and 1 minute of flight. Both solid abilities, nothing super interesting though. The flavor is insane for the Wings, I love that to death.

Kobolds

This is kind of not what I expected. One thing I sort of like is how they talk about the roaring. "The roar of a kobold can express a range of emotion: anger, resolve, elation, fear, and more. " Roaring in fear? That's not something I've heard a lot. I might not make it a roar, because that feels like it should be a deeper sound, but it is interesting.

But, mechanics are more important here, and they are actually really really solid.

Sunlight sensitivity is gone, and you get a choice of one of three perks. 1) You have advantage against fear. Now, I know a lot of people don't like this because Kobold = Coward to them, but I've never liked Kobolds as cowards. And, even if they are cowards, this kind of fits still. Cowards are used to fear, it is a familiar thing to them, and so it would make sense that they can still operate in spite of fear. Remember, the Frightened Condition isn't just "you are sacred" it is generally "you are mystically terrified out of your mind". So, there is a lot of interesting space here for a race that is ALWAYS scared, so can still operate despite it.

2) Get a Cantrip. Solid ability, useful for all ages and ties into dragon magic.

3) A tail attack for 1d6+strength. I like and don't like this. I'd make it strength or dex, just like that more. Lizards and tail attacks are a perfect match, most of the most terrifying tails in the animal kingdom belong to lizards. However, I think I would go a step further and make the Kobold tail semi-prehensile. As trap makers and tinkers, having what would amount to a 3rd hand would be really interesting to play with. And I think that is more equal in power to their other options than a handaxe on their butt.

Then it plays into that Roar, with an ability that gives all allies advantage against all enemies within 10 ft of you. This is insanely good. This actually brings to mind a pack mentality far more than pack tactics ever did. They are signalling and communicating, distracting and becoming a target. This is AWESOME.

This might not fit the "traditional" view of Kobolds, but these guys are super interesting.

Feats

So, I'm not so sure about some of these.

Chromatic is awesome. Bonus action to get a non-concentration buff of 1d4 elemental damage to all attacks for a minute? Amazing. Add in some Absorb elements resistance and this is a solid feat, ready to go.

Metallic... that first ability sucks. 1/day Cure Wounds? I mean, this could be good for spellcasters who want those additional spell slots to cast it with, but... I don't like it. Their second ability though, is solidly good. Reaction +1d4 to AC to an adjacent ally? I like the visual, I like the ability, I might want to make it +1d6 instead, but it is decently good.

Gem is the only half feat, and I feel that alone speaks poorly for it. The reaction is nice, 2d8 and a push, solid, but I'd rather see something else than it being a half feat. And, it is one of those very passive abilities where you want to get hit but you probably put this on a caster who is going to avoid getting hit. Not a great ability.

Spells

/RANT

WIZARDS GET EVERYTHING AGAIN! WHY WHY WHY!

/END RANT

Seriously, that bugs me. Hitting these in order.

Draconic Transformation is likely balanced, but I don't think it feels like a Draconic Transformation. Compare to Crown of Stars which are seven 4d12 bonus action attacks with no Concentration. This is concentration with a bonus action AOEs of 3d8 force, see invisibility and flight. I think I do agree that getting an AC bonus feels appropriate here, but the damage calculations are likely balanced. Also worth noting, this is a Druid spell on top of the Sorcerer and -----

Fizban's Platinum shield... didn't impress me. Sure, it is good when facing things that cause dex saves vs elemental damage, but two of those elements are usually Con saves, and it can only protect one person, plus is Concentration. It could be good in the right situation, but how often would I take this instead of a different 6th level spell? I'm not sure. Only usable by Sorcerer and ----- to.

Flame Stride is really cool and really really powerful I think. Bonus Action for a +20 ft movement and you ignore opportunity attacks. You can only hit creatures once per turn by moving within 5 ft, for 1d6 damage, but that is almost gravy in a way. And, the creature has no defense against the damage, they just take it. Put this on a Ranger (who deserves it more than the Sorcerer and ------ Edit: Oh, artificers get this too. That is super thematic for them) who happens to be a wood elf? With Roving you could have a movement speed of 60 ft, and that is a lot of potential enemies to hit, especially if you use the DMG rules to allow movement through enemies.

Iceingdeath's Frost is also just a really solid spell. 30 ft cone of 3d8 damage and a grapple on any creature who fails. A grapple that requires an enemy action to break? Though, I just noticed, the range is listed as 15 ft, so their might be some debate there. I think 30 is fine, but maybe that would require lowering the damage. I just want a big "freeze" spell. Only Sorcerer and -----

Nathair's Mischief..... less impressed. 20 ft cube, random effect. Could be a charm, could be blind, could be incapacitated and random movement, could be difficult terrain. I'm not a fan of random effects, and this could be too may different things. They are all good debuffs, but hard to say if the spell will be useful in the moment. Bard, Sorcerer and -----

Raulithom's Psychic Lance. This spell is good, but I'm not sure why people are so impressed with the naming part. You hit a target you can see within 60 ft. They take 10d6 and are incapacitated (a lot of those effects going on) on an Intelligence save. Good, solid, straightforward. The Naming only allows you to hit a target who is behind cover or invisible. OH! I see now. The Naming also makes the spell FREE. No spell slot used. Holy breadbaskets that is good. Now, this isn't useful unless you have a 4th level slot (you still need to be able to start the casting) and it only works if you know their name, which is going to be rare, but.. dang, this is a death sentence if you know their name. 10d6 every round with no ability to take actions to retaliate? That is too good, perhaps. It is incredibly easy to shut that down, as a DM, but if the players work for it this kills anything that has trouble succeeding an Int save, and becomes a 10d6 cantrip. YIKES. And it can be used by Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and -----

Summon Draconic Spirit is awesome. Just straight up. I know the breath weapon doesn't scale, but it also is at will. An at-will AOE of 2d6 in a 30 ft cone, of your choice of damage, plus two attacks of 1d6+9? That is a round by round 4d6+18, very solid. The spirit is going to have a great AC of 19, but is a bit squishy with 50 hp. Still a good amount of hp though. Plus, it is Fast and has reach. 80 ft fly speed and 10 ft reach means this baby is spending its time in the air while kiting the enemy, and it has Blindsight. Jeebus, this thing is monstrous.

Plus, pay attention to the phrasing of the breath weapon. It does a type that the dragon is resistant to, but they are resistant to 5 types. This means if you summon it to fight fire enemies, it has resistance to fire, but can deal cold or lightning damage, bypassing the common problem of "you can't hurt me, I can't hurt you" I'd rarely use the Gem version, since those are much less commonly resisted elements, and Acid will cut through most enemies who have elemental resistance.

Oh, and it gives you resistance.

Frankly, I think the Spirit ties that Psychic lance for most powerful spell on this list. Good for Druids, Sorcerers and ------, and as a Conjuration spell it can be buffed by Conjuration school or Shepherd. I want it, and I want it now.

MaxWilson

2021-04-14, 09:33 PM

1) Gift of the chromatic dragon is okish, but just barely so for a full feat. First of all the damage and duration of the damage rider are meh. It clogs up a bonus action for a d4 (compare this to say getting hex from a feat). The resistance is good though. However scaling with prof really makes this only worthwhile in the tier3-4 range, so you're looking at a feat that most people will never see.

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon does not require concentration or even spellcasting, making it far superior to Hex for a Barbarian, especially a Beast with lots of attacks. Hex isn't even a serious option there.

-Iron Wizard is a terrible example, you know who else prioritises straight Wizard progression? People just playing Wizards without trying to achieve some niche benefit. That build in particular has both the 4th and 8th ASI dedicated (which imo, doesn't prioritise Wizard effectiveness in the least), it obviously won't try and fit a feat like this in. The examples I gave were expicitly V. Human and Custom Lineage because of how easy and early they work feats into builds.

My apologies, I genuinely didn't see whatever build examples you are referring to, so I had to guess (since I don't read minds). Are you sure you didn't give your build examples to someone else?

Note that Iron Wizard "only" needs racial + 4th level ASI to reach decent AC. Building as vhuman or custom lineage actually just makes it slightly worse and doesn't free up any ASIs, which may be why I seem to have missed your point.

I just want to reiterate that my stance is 'this is annoying and unneeded creep/toe stepping' not 'this will bust the game wide open.'

Ah, then we've been talking about different things all along. I was only ever talking about how strong it was, not how annoying it was, since I find ALL race bloat annoying especially the recent UAs. Annoying and unneeded, yes.

I would be very grouchy about 5E right now except that my happiness over the quality of Cthulhu Mythos For 5E (https://petersengames.com/the-games-shop/cthulhu-mythos-for-5e/) (from Sandy Petersen) has trumped my unhappiness over the quality of Tasha's (from WotC). And not just over things like spell balance and monster atmosphere/design--that happiness extends to the little things too, like putting page numbers in the text when referring to material elsewhere in the book. Terrific book.

GooeyChewie

2021-04-14, 09:51 PM

Side note on the antisynergy of the AC bump:

I'm not seeing why it's antisynergistic at all? I mean this would only be really bad in a game where the DM rolls behind the screen and just tells you you're hit. Any table that rolls in the open (common on VTT ime) will see if they're hit by just one.

The characters who get the biggest boost from the Cure Wounds portion are spellcasters (because non-casters just get the one instance of the spell) who do not normally have access to Cure Wounds (because otherwise why not just take it as a normal spell). Those characters are Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards, all of whom tend to want to cast spells from a safe distance, where you might not even be standing next to another player to use the reaction.

The class most likely to get use out of the AC boost is Paladin, which often wants to stand near friends to allow auras to work anyway. And Paladins already have access to healing magic, both through Cure Wounds and through Lay on Hands.

There's not many builds which get a lot of benefit from both sides of the feat. Maybe Hexblade?

Hael

2021-04-14, 09:51 PM

The spells are where this UA gets a bit on the overtuned side.

-Draconic Transformation could be a fifth level spell. Its way undertuned for a seventh level slot. You would need to either increase the damage, increase the duration or remove the concentration side to make it something someone would want
-Fizbans platinum shield. What a fantastic spell! Its mechanically very strong, worthy of concentration and my only regret is that I think it would fit bards or clerics more than wizards and sorcerers.
-Flame Stride. I really like this spell and love that Rangers and Artificers get access to it.
-Icing Death. This is ridiculously OP. Its a very large area of effect, with high aoe damage and a strong CC effect, the removal of which wastes another enemies turn. As written its probably the best 2nd lvl spell in the game.
-Nathairs mischief. I'm not sure I like the flavor of this spell. Still its very strong for a 2nd lvl spell but it requires a lot of metagame knowledge.
-Raulothims Lance. Another OP spell. The int save is where the problem is, as its almost a guaranteed CC and big damage spell against an invisible target. Thus I think there's too many effects for a 4th lvl slot. It also gives Bards a very potent blasting spell, which i'm not entirely sure you want to encourage too much. Imo this should be warlock/wizard only.
-Summon Draconic spirit. First of all, this is a fantastic mount as it seems to have substance. It gives you a free resistance, b/c of course summons should. As far as the statblock, having a flying creature hit that hard with an every turn aoe breath weapon, might cause some problems at some tables as you can use it to clear out legions of lesser enemies with little counterplay. Overall, this is not better than some of Tashas other summon spells, but it again proves that summons are a balance point problem for 5e, as it gives even more versatility and options in that space. Note that this is the first 'universal' summon spell available to sorcerors.

Hael

2021-04-14, 10:04 PM

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon does not require concentration or even spellcasting, making it far superior to Hex for a Barbarian, especially a Beast with lots of attacks. Hex isn't even a serious option there.

Definitely an upgrade for a barbarian. However for most other cases, I think you'd definitely want magic initiate instead.

From a pure DPR perspective, its hard to justify this feat over the damage riders of even half-feats like elven accuracy, so i'm sorta at a loss on who really wants this. Maybe one of the last feats for a 2h sword champion?

Meh.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-14, 11:30 PM

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon does not require concentration or even spellcasting, making it far superior to Hex for a Barbarian, especially a Beast with lots of attacks. Hex isn't even a serious option there.

Probably better on something like a Fighter, since anything BA competes with Rage, great if your DM leans towards fewer but harder encounters though.

My apologies, I genuinely didn't see whatever build examples you are referring to, so I had to guess (since I don't read minds). Are you sure you didn't give your build examples to someone else?

No mind reading involved you replied, quoting me, talking about V. Human and Custom Lineage, then started talking about a niche Wizard build that I doubt sees any use outside of people that frequent this forum and actually think highly of it.

Note that Iron Wizard "only" needs racial + 4th level ASI to reach decent AC. Building as vhuman or custom lineage actually just makes it slightly worse and doesn't free up any ASIs, which may be why I seem to have missed your point.

The build explicitly assigns the first two ASIs, what is needed for a 'decent AC' is irrelevant, the overall build doesn't have ASIs to go around on other things.

You say it makes it slightly worse, are you talking about from an AC stand point? I didn't mean to make a point that taking this particular feat makes a superior or equal AC character to any particular build, and I'm not sure I said something along the way that could be construed as such.

Ah, then we've been talking about different things all along. I was only ever talking about how strong it was, not how annoying it was, since I find ALL race bloat annoying especially the recent UAs. Annoying and unneeded, yes.

I would be very grouchy about 5E right now except that my happiness over the quality of Cthulhu Mythos For 5E (https://petersengames.com/the-games-shop/cthulhu-mythos-for-5e/) (from Sandy Petersen) has trumped my unhappiness over the quality of Tasha's (from WotC). And not just over things like spell balance and monster atmosphere/design--that happiness extends to the little things too, like putting page numbers in the text when referring to material elsewhere in the book. Terrific book.

Glad I cleared that up. I'm always hesistant to look into third party materials, since I can't rely on it when I do get the chance to play, I can't universally discuss it and if I want something in my games I'll just 'brew it myself or alter existing options.

The characters who get the biggest boost from the Cure Wounds portion are spellcasters (because non-casters just get the one instance of the spell) who do not normally have access to Cure Wounds (because otherwise why not just take it as a normal spell). Those characters are Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards, all of whom tend to want to cast spells from a safe distance, where you might not even be standing next to another player to use the reaction.

Arguable, freeing up your spells prepared (in the case of a Paladin for example) is nice, I have two players that play Paladins (two separate games) and they both struggle over preparing their lists (both with +3 or +4 Cha), both never wanting to leave Cure Wounds behind (and one actually preferring it to Lay on Hands).

The class most likely to get use out of the AC boost is Paladin, which often wants to stand near friends to allow auras to work anyway. And Paladins already have access to healing magic, both through Cure Wounds and through Lay on Hands.

There's not many builds which get a lot of benefit from both sides of the feat. Maybe Hexblade?

Paladins would benefit, anyone with slots so AT, EKs, any Pact of the Blade, Bladesingers, Gish multiclasses...

Edit:to clarify part of my confusion is at the very least, everyone can gain some degree of benefit from being able to heal themselves or another and at least being able to increase their own AC.

SharkForce

2021-04-14, 11:54 PM

Raulithom's Psychic Lance. This spell is good, but I'm not sure why people are so impressed with the naming part. You hit a target you can see within 60 ft. They take 10d6 and are incapacitated (a lot of those effects going on) on an Intelligence save. Good, solid, straightforward. The Naming only allows you to hit a target who is behind cover or invisible. OH! I see now. The Naming also makes the spell FREE. No spell slot used. Holy breadbaskets that is good. Now, this isn't useful unless you have a 4th level slot (you still need to be able to start the casting) and it only works if you know their name, which is going to be rare, but.. dang, this is a death sentence if you know their name. 10d6 every round with no ability to take actions to retaliate? That is too good, perhaps. It is incredibly easy to shut that down, as a DM, but if the players work for it this kills anything that has trouble succeeding an Int save, and becomes a 10d6 cantrip. YIKES. And it can be used by Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and -----

it's only free if your target isn't within range. that's still pretty good, because it's safe to use if you even *think* they might be in range, and you can use it from inside an impenetrable barrier if you can set that up, but it isn't as crazy as you think.

MaxWilson

2021-04-15, 12:07 AM

No mind reading involved you replied, quoting me, talking about V. Human and Custom Lineage, then started talking about a niche Wizard build that I doubt sees any use outside of people that frequent this forum and actually think highly of it.

You didn't give an example of how you would use those vhuman/custom lineage feats, so I had to infer. It's not a niche GITP scenario--buying moderate armor and shield use was one of the first things I ever saw wizards doing with feats, back in 2015. I could have been more clear about the fact that I'm not referring solely and specifically to the Iron Wizard "build" that you're thinking of, rather to the general trend of armored wizards with shields, but I think that's implicit in giving an example: of course one example isn't supposed to be an exhaustive list of all examples.

In any case, I don't think you've made the case that vhumans or custom lineages get enough mileage out of Cure Wounds to prioritize it as a feat on a pure class wizard. I wish you would give an example.

thoroughlyS

2021-04-15, 12:32 AM

After seeing this UA, I am riding high. I have been advocating for the attack substitution breath weapon on Dragonborn since at least October of 2018 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22158739&postcount=38). On top of that, I have advocated for removing Pack Tactics on kobolds, and even for reflavoring Grovel, Cower, & Beg (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?550054-Replacing-Grovel-Cower-and-Beg-for-Kobolds-with-Dragonlike-pride). These revisions are definitely pushing the power curve, which I feel reflects the general direction of the game.

I'm also excited for gem dragons and gem dragonborn, especially seeing how they decided to differentiate the breath weapons from one another. I have been a fan of the idea of kobolds with a natural weapon, and for some reason it being their tail as opposed to their bite or claws really pleases me. The new feats aren't all that interesting to me. I'm not a caster, but the spells look pretty wild.

I also agree that the replacement for Grovel, Cower, & Beg seems a little bonkers as a bonus action.

OvisCaedo

2021-04-15, 12:36 AM

"Power Level. The character options you read here might be more or less powerful than options in the Player’s Handbook. If a design survives playtesting, we adjust its power to the desirable level before official publication. This means an option could be more or less powerful in its final form."

"The dragonborn race in the Player’s Handbook is one way to reflect a character with dragons somewhere far back in their ancestry. This document offers three variant dragonborn races you can choose instead, if you want a character with clearer connections to a specific draconic ancestry-"

These two statements are really funny to me for what is blatantly supposed to be a stronger version of an infamously underpowered race option. It's like they CAN'T openly admit that maybe PHB dragonborn were too weak.

As content itself goes, the dragonborm rework seems alright to me. Not super sure about kobold, or the feats, and the spells also seem like a mixed bag.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-15, 12:51 AM

You didn't give an example of how you would use those vhuman/custom lineage feats, so I had to infer.

I merely mentioned them as cheap ways to get feats, and we were talking about a particular feat.

It's not a niche GITP scenario--buying moderate armor and shield use was one of the first things I ever saw wizards doing with feats, back in 2015. I could have been more clear about the fact that I'm not referring solely and specifically to the Iron Wizard "build" that you're thinking of, rather to the general trend of armored wizards with shields, but I think that's implicit in giving an example: of course one example isn't supposed to be an exhaustive list of all examples.

The build I'm thinking of is named build popular on the forums that we are discussing this on, that you brought up by name. A single example needn't be an exhaustive list, but it was the only example given and inferring unspoken examples that you may not be thinking of or even agree with doesn't really seem reasonable on my part.

In any case, I don't think you've made the case that vhumans or custom lineages get enough mileage out of Cure Wounds to prioritize it as a feat on a pure class wizard. I wish you would give an example.

The feat isn't Cure Wounds, it's Cure Wounds + a defensive ability that can be shared. If you really need a fleshed out example or where that would be useful, okay:

Party of four:

Bear Totem Barbarian

Battle Master Fighter (but literally any subclass that isn't Psi Warrior or Banneret would do)

Literally any Monk but Mercy

V. Human/Custom Lineage Bladesinger Wizard (though any Wizard except maybe War Wizard fits here)

The races of the other characters isn't particularly relevant.

As is, the party has no cross character healing, no one wants to play a class with built in cross character healing. Wizard is happy to take a feat to patch this need and ends up with Cure Wounds and a nifty defensive ability.

If all the AC bump ever does is spare the occasional 1st level slot for the Wizard on Shield, it's doing decently imo, but the Wizard can stand behind the others or side by side if desired (Bladesinger makes this more feasible).

Being able to pick someone up if necessary and top someone off between combat, especially without needing a slot to do so the first time, is a huge boon to this party.

This kind of situation isn't uncommon, I can't count the amount of times I've had players come together with no healer and worry about it (regardless what I say about them playing what they want).

This also works if the healing in the party is light on healing or just want a more plentiful source of it (I don't like Arcane Recovery, but it gives a Wizard the slots mileage to make good use of something like this).

Kane0

2021-04-15, 12:58 AM

These two statements are really funny to me for what is blatantly supposed to be a stronger version of an infamously underpowered race option. It's like they CAN'T openly admit that maybe PHB dragonborn were too weak.

Same goes for many other things (Ranger, Berserker, Feats and Spells, etc)

Christopher K.

2021-04-15, 01:10 AM

I'm enjoying the UA - hopefully that means there might be a draconomicon or similar on its way, though I'm a little confused on the logic behind Draconic Roar on kobolds. If it's supposed to be a rallying cry to give your allies advantage, is it much of a "roar at your enemies?" Or if it's supposed to be an intimidation tactic so your allies can get the slip on your foes, would this be ineffective against creatures immune to being frightened?

Hytheter

2021-04-15, 02:40 AM

MaxWilson

2021-04-15, 03:32 AM

The new Dragonborn breath weapons are kind of a stealth buff for the Dragon Fear feat. You can now throw out an AOE fear effect in the middle of your attack routine several times per day. Conquest Paladins may enjoy this? Although the aura damage triggering a re-save might be too self-defeating...

In general this is good for anyone with extra attack but especially anyone who gets "once per turn" rider that wouldn't benefit your second attack anyway, example zealot barbs, anyone using a smite spell, aasimar transforms, sneak attack on a multiclass etc. Blow your load on attack 1 and then shoot an aoe attack 2.

Excellent insight, thanks Hytheter!

========================

The build I'm thinking of is named build popular on the forums that we are discussing this on, that you brought up by name. A single example needn't be an exhaustive list, but it was the only example given and inferring unspoken examples that you may not be thinking of or even agree with doesn't really seem reasonable on my part.

Oh come on. Quote:

At the risk of repeating myself, I see your point but I see Cure Wounds showing up already as a fringe benefit so it doesn't strike me as power creep. There are pure class builds like the Iron Wizard who prioritize wizard spell progression, but they tend to be starved for ASIs already and are IMO unlikely to want to invest an ASI in Cure Wounds, compared to all the other goodies available via ASIs like better initiative and blindsight (I'm assuming that anyone who plays with Post-Tasha's UA probably also plays with Tasha's feats).

Don't tell me that "pure class builds like Iron Wizard who... tend to be starved for ASIs" is laser-focused on a specific build niche. I can't believe you're complaining about not getting more examples of feat-starved pure class builds from me given that up until now you've provided even fewer examples of your thinking (zero) than I did (one, plus I told you the selection principle: pure class, feat starved). But at least you finally did in this post:

If you really need a fleshed out example or where that would be useful, okay:

Party of four:

Bear Totem Barbarian

Battle Master Fighter (but literally any subclass that isn't Psi Warrior or Banneret would do)

Literally any Monk but Mercy

V. Human/Custom Lineage Bladesinger Wizard (though any Wizard except maybe War Wizard fits here)

The races of the other characters isn't particularly relevant.

As is, the party has no cross character healing, no one wants to play a class with built in cross character healing. Wizard is happy to take a feat to patch this need and ends up with Cure Wounds and a nifty defensive ability.

Looks to me as if the wizard would be better off with the Healer feat instead. Cheap healing every short rest with no spell slot cost plus unlimited popup heals. I think this example is undermining your point instead of supporting it.

If you pick another wizard besides Bladesinger then Gift of the Metallic Dragons (or whatever the name is) gets even worse because now you're even less likely to be able to get value out of the protective half of the feat (can't protect front-liners without being near the front line, and for protecting yourself you won't typically want to risk spending your reaction on a mere +d4 to AC against a single hit because that leaves you unable to Shield against other hits vs. your crummy AC), so now you're getting expensive subpar healing and very little else.

It's not a compelling feat.

ATHATH

2021-04-15, 03:59 AM

I think that the Mischief spell looks seriously good. A movable 20ft cube that takes no kind of action to move is good. Sure the effects are unreliable but as a crowd control spell from a level 2 slot it isnt bad.
The problem with Mischief is that two of the effects are basically duds (remember, the charmed condition does very little in this edition), while the other two are really good. Even with a 50/50 chance to whiff each turn (not even accounting for saving throws and the like), it looks like it could still be very good, but the lowrolls look like they'd be pretty unfun to roll.

ATHATH

2021-04-15, 04:06 AM

aasimar transforms
Won't that conflict with being a dragonborn?

sambojin

2021-04-15, 04:10 AM

Just from the Druid's end of things:

Gem Dragon racials are interesting. Especially for Moons. Telepathy is great for when you're spending a fair bit of time in wildshape, and you get lvl3 flight. It's not much flying, but since you can use it in wildshape, it'll be really handy. Like, really handy.

You also get a resistance. Sounds a bit "meh", but by the time Moons are level 10, you'll have B/P/S non-magical resistance in elemental form, and an extra from your gem dragon type. More odd resistances are good, especially considering you can cover a lot of the rest while in caster form with Absorb Elements.

Breath weapons work fine in some wildshape forms, in some situations. Choose your biggest attack, attack action with that, and bonus action in your breath weapon. Not even too bad on some multiattack forms, because they mostly have a big/small attack thing going. No good if a rider triggers a bonus action attack, otherwise it's not too bad.

You get bugger all new spells. But they're pretty good.

Summon Dragon works fine, and removes a lot of "Conjures aren't that versatile" stuff at lvl9. Or if your DM/ table hates heaps of conjures anyway. The ok'ish to-hit is good too. Conjures *are* that versatile, but it's another arrow in your quiver, with some fun stuff to do, for a 5th level slot. Is it better than double Animals, an extra cast of Woodland Beings, or compared to Conjure Elemental? Maybe. It's probably better than Elementals anyway for the same slot, due to 1 round casting time and 1hr duration, with no backfire potential. Think of it as Summon Greater Steed if you want, but it does a bit of combat stuff too. And gives another resistance. Actually, it gives nearly any resistance on cast, as-in whatever. Like, lots :)
(It annoyingly doesn't have prone/ restrained/ paralyzed/ grappled/ petrified/ unconscious immunity. So it can still be dropped like a stone from the air with basic condition riders, like from a Dex BM fighter Archer. Something you can't do to an Air Elemental, ever. Elementals have a huge list of condition immunities, on top of some basic damage resistances/ immunities. There's a pretty big reason elemental wildshape takes both charges, for "meh" levels of damage).

Draconic Transformation seems a lot better for Druids than it does for most. It's not great for a lvl7 spell, but it has its lols. Because of firebreathing flying mammoths and stuff as a Moon. Or yamato-battle-cannon Giant Eagles as a Stars (with smaller cannons as Archer included). A bit of blindsight opens up stupid-druid-stuff a bit too. There's plenty of dumb "it works because it's magic" things available, especially with varying party make-up and gimmicks. This kind of thing is always fun.

ATHATH

2021-04-15, 04:11 AM

-Raulothims Lance. Another OP spell. The int save is where the problem is, as its almost a guaranteed CC and big damage spell against an invisible target. Thus I think there's too many effects for a 4th lvl slot. It also gives Bards a very potent blasting spell, which i'm not entirely sure you want to encourage too much. Imo this should be warlock/wizard only.
Note that the cover and invisibility-ignoring effect requires you to know the target's name, which you aren't guaranteed to have easy access to without some preparation (especially since things that go invisible tend to be sneaky ambushers).

Hytheter

2021-04-15, 05:55 AM

Won't that conflict with being a dragonborn?

Yes it would, that was a big derp on my part haha.

Breath weapons work fine in some wildshape forms, in some situations. Choose your biggest attack, attack action with that, and bonus action in your breath weapon. Not even too bad on some multiattack forms, because they mostly have a big/small attack thing going. No good if a rider triggers a bonus action attack, otherwise it's not too bad.

The breath weapon isn't a bonus action, so not sure what you're going for here. It's part of your attack action, so it competes with Wild Shape attacks, but is at least usable. You're spot on with telepathy and limited flight being super handy, though.

sambojin

2021-04-15, 06:47 AM

I stand corrected. Not only is it not multiattack compatible, it literally takes your one attack action to do it. I guess you could multiclass for Extra Attack or Action Surge, but that would be a pretty bad thing to do.
Every Druid level is a good Druid level, etc, ect.

Seems pretty bad then, I guess.

Still, whatever, you can throw out a flame breath every once in a while, just for giggles. Even in wildshape. A ribbon, but a fun one 🎀

"Hey, you know Burning Hands, and can cast it as a racial ability a few times a day! With funky damage typing! Even in wildshape! Huzzah!"

x3n0n

2021-04-15, 07:59 AM

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon does not require concentration or even spellcasting, making it far superior to Hex for a Barbarian, especially a Beast with lots of attacks.

"As a bonus action, you can touch a simple or martial weapon and infuse it with one of the following damage types"

I had wrongly assumed that the Beast's natural weapons weren't eligible, but they totally are (because they are explicitly denoted as simple melee weapons).

Unarmed strikes, however, are not. Le sigh. The requisite wording is awkward, but this totally needs to allow something like touching a creature to infuse its unarmed strikes and natural weapons, or it will be yet another thing that is great for Monks, except not.

Hytheter

2021-04-15, 08:01 AM

I stand corrected. Not only is it not multiattack compatible, it literally takes your one attack action to do it. I guess you could multiclass for Extra Attack or Action Surge, but that would be a pretty bad thing to do.
Every Druid level is a good Druid level, etc, ect

Here's a crazy idea: Depending on the books you have at hand, you could use the Rakdos Cultist background that puts Haste on your Spell List, open with Haste and Wild Shape. Use the Haste action to attack and replace that with the breath weapon, do your full Multiattack as an action.

Not a bad use for a haste action in general, now that I think about it.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-15, 08:22 AM

it's only free if your target isn't within range. that's still pretty good, because it's safe to use if you even *think* they might be in range, and you can use it from inside an impenetrable barrier if you can set that up, but it isn't as crazy as you think.

Ah, you are correct.

Okay, this goes back down to being a solid spell, and not an OP death spell. Thank you for the correction.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The feat isn't Cure Wounds, it's Cure Wounds + a defensive ability that can be shared. If you really need a fleshed out example or where that would be useful, okay:

Party of four:

Bear Totem Barbarian

Battle Master Fighter (but literally any subclass that isn't Psi Warrior or Banneret would do)

Literally any Monk but Mercy

V. Human/Custom Lineage Bladesinger Wizard (though any Wizard except maybe War Wizard fits here)

The races of the other characters isn't particularly relevant.

As is, the party has no cross character healing, no one wants to play a class with built in cross character healing. Wizard is happy to take a feat to patch this need and ends up with Cure Wounds and a nifty defensive ability.

If all the AC bump ever does is spare the occasional 1st level slot for the Wizard on Shield, it's doing decently imo, but the Wizard can stand behind the others or side by side if desired (Bladesinger makes this more feasible).

Being able to pick someone up if necessary and top someone off between combat, especially without needing a slot to do so the first time, is a huge boon to this party.

This kind of situation isn't uncommon, I can't count the amount of times I've had players come together with no healer and worry about it (regardless what I say about them playing what they want).

This also works if the healing in the party is light on healing or just want a more plentiful source of it (I don't like Arcane Recovery, but it gives a Wizard the slots mileage to make good use of something like this).

My problem with this is the Feat has to compete with other feats, and for the Barbarian, Fighter and Monk this is a 1/day cure wounds. That is going to give you an average of something like 6 hp? Sure, it could be the Fighter giving up their entire action to revive the barbarian (or vice-versa) but that needs to be a fairly desperate situation, and a lot of other feats could be just as useful. For example, Healer. That gives you an average of 11 hp (double) to each party member, per short rest. Same cost of an action as well.

The shielding could be good, maybe that can carry the feat, but "learn cure wounds" isn't a great ability for anyone except arcane casters, and there are a few different ways to get that already between Magic Initiate, Artificer Initiate, and I think one of the touched feats.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm enjoying the UA - hopefully that means there might be a draconomicon or similar on its way, though I'm a little confused on the logic behind Draconic Roar on kobolds. If it's supposed to be a rallying cry to give your allies advantage, is it much of a "roar at your enemies?" Or if it's supposed to be an intimidation tactic so your allies can get the slip on your foes, would this be ineffective against creatures immune to being frightened?

Yes.

Not being entirely silly here, I'd say the intent is to cover intimidation, rallying cries, or maybe even some freaky echolocation magic. It works against everyone though, so I say flavor it for the the situation at hand, or the character using it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with Mischief is that two of the effects are basically duds (remember, the charmed condition does very little in this edition), while the other two are really good. Even with a 50/50 chance to whiff each turn (not even accounting for saving throws and the like), it looks like it could still be very good, but the lowrolls look like they'd be pretty unfun to roll.

Eh, one thing the Charm condition can do though is to prevent all of those enemies from attacking you. Niche and on a random roll, but it could be useful

RogueJK

2021-04-15, 08:42 AM

The characters who get the biggest boost from the Cure Wounds portion are spellcasters (because non-casters just get the one instance of the spell) who do not normally have access to Cure Wounds (because otherwise why not just take it as a normal spell). Those characters are Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards, all of whom tend to want to cast spells from a safe distance, where you might not even be standing next to another player to use the reaction.
...
There's not many builds which get a lot of benefit from both sides of the feat. Maybe Hexblade?

Yep. Gishes like Hexblades. Also something like a Paladin 2/Sorcerer X who doesn't want to use one of their few Paladin spells known on CW. Similar with a melee Ranger, who may want to use their limited spells known for something else.

Otherwise useful on other sorts of more frontline arcane casters, such as a tankier Wizard like an Medium Armor Abjurer or possibly Bladesinger.

Maybe an Eldritch Knight, although their spell slots are pretty limited.

x3n0n

2021-04-15, 09:10 AM

Yep. Gishes like Hexblades. Also something like a Paladin 2/Sorcerer X who doesn't want to use one of their few Paladin spells known on CW. Similar with a melee Ranger, who may want to use their limited spells known for something else.

Otherwise useful on other sorts of more frontline arcane casters, such as a tankier Wizard like an Medium Armor Abjurer or possibly Bladesinger.

Maybe an Eldritch Knight, although their spell slots are pretty limited.

If I already have the Shield spell and am Int-casting, I'd probably prefer Artificer Initiate a significant majority of the time just so I can get Guidance. (Shield is much better, but costs spell slots; this reaction is much, much worse but uses a disjoint set of resources.)

I think non-Hexblade, non-Celestial melee warlocks and Rangers have the strongest case here. The high-Cha Pal2/SorX probably has enough spell preps to not need CW from this and has access to Shield via Sorc. (Hexblade might want it for spell slot reasons, but the opportunity cost feels really high.)

RogueJK

2021-04-15, 09:18 AM

(Hexblade might want it for spell slot reasons, but the opportunity cost feels really high.)

Yeah, even though Hexblades have access to Shield, outside of low levels Shield isn't always all that useful on a Hexblade. It's not often worth burning 50% of your 3rd, 4th, or 5th level spell slots on Shield. This gives you an alternate option to leverage your Reaction for a defensive boost.

Compare to Defensive Duelist, which is another feat that lets you use your Reaction for defensive benefit:

DD Pros:
-Fixed AC bonus that scales with Proficiency
-Unlimited uses per day

DD Cons
-Minimum DEX requirement
-Must be wielding a Finesse weapon
-No Cure Wounds
-Not Shareable
-Only usable against melee attacks

Dienekes

2021-04-15, 09:19 AM

\
Yes.

Not being entirely silly here, I'd say the intent is to cover intimidation, rallying cries, or maybe even some freaky echolocation magic. It works against everyone though, so I say flavor it for the the situation at hand, or the character using it.

I think that's kind of the issue, you're not being entirely silly. These are kobolds. The lemmings of D&D. One of their premier monsters is an "inventor" with such tools as: a scorpion on a stick. A grenade that's just a wasp nest. And the terrible bio warfare tool known as skunk in a cage.

This kobold reads like it's trying to be all cool and draconic, and that's not what a kobold is. Kobolds are these insane weird little things that make goblins look tough.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-15, 10:01 AM

I think that's kind of the issue, you're not being entirely silly. These are kobolds. The lemmings of D&D. One of their premier monsters is an "inventor" with such tools as: a scorpion on a stick. A grenade that's just a wasp nest. And the terrible bio warfare tool known as skunk in a cage.

This kobold reads like it's trying to be all cool and draconic, and that's not what a kobold is. Kobolds are these insane weird little things that make goblins look tough.

That is one version of them, and you could reflavor their "roars" to be that way. Maybe the advantage is from the enemies thinking it is cute or funny.

But, I think there are multiple types of Kobolds in the multiverse, and I've never really been a fan of the silly versions. But, that is personal preference.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-15, 10:48 AM

Oh come on. Quote:

Don't tell me that "pure class builds like Iron Wizard who... tend to be starved for ASIs" is laser-focused on a specific build niche. I can't believe you're complaining about not getting more examples of feat-starved pure class builds from me given that up until now you've provided even fewer examples of your thinking (zero) than I did (one, plus I told you the selection principle: pure class, feat starved). But at least you finally did in this post:

I'm not complaining about not getting more examples, my issue with this is that your go to example for 'being a straight Wizard' was the Iron Wizard, or quite frankly anything that depended on a feat. Whilst Wizards (like anyone else) can certainly benefit from feats, playing a straight one doesn't necessitate feats and V. Human is a super common race choice in my experience.

Looks to me as if the wizard would be better off with the Healer feat instead. Cheap healing every short rest with no spell slot cost plus unlimited popup heals. I think this example is undermining your point instead of supporting it.

Healer is a great feat that I enjoy, I wouldn't rely on it entirely, because the actual heal is once per creature per SR. If you have a character that really got the snot beat out of them as the focus, then you don't need a decent size heal to everyone (probably) you need to heal that person.

Persepective point for me: I don't like pop up healing mechanically or thematically, constantly brining someone up at 1hp will likely lead to their downing if not outright death and in my games would earn said person increasing amounts of exhaustion.

If you pick another wizard besides Bladesinger then Gift of the Metallic Dragons (or whatever the name is) gets even worse because now you're even less likely to be able to get value out of the protective half of the feat (can't protect front-liners without being near the front line, and for protecting yourself you won't typically want to risk spending your reaction on a mere +d4 to AC against a single hit because that leaves you unable to Shield against other hits vs. your crummy AC), so now you're getting expensive subpar healing and very little else.

I suspect what amounts to decent AC is part of the problem here, I don't see 15+ (just Mage Armor and +2 Dex) to be a low AC, nor do I see a caster moving up behind the frontline to help out to be an issue. It doesn't have to be the standard tactic, but I see hp as a resource and there comes a point where even a Wizard has more of that then those at the front.

You can also read the situation, it may be that you could only take a single attack that turn because the others have already been spent on your allies, a lot of the time the potential of Shield is barely touched.

It's not a compelling feat.

I'm not saying it's an amazing feat, but I don't think it's a bad feat by any stretch.

My problem with this is the Feat has to compete with other feats, and for the Barbarian, Fighter and Monk this is a 1/day cure wounds. That is going to give you an average of something like 6 hp? Sure, it could be the Fighter giving up their entire action to revive the barbarian (or vice-versa) but that needs to be a fairly desperate situation, and a lot of other feats could be just as useful. For example, Healer. That gives you an average of 11 hp (double) to each party member, per short rest. Same cost of an action as well.

The shielding could be good, maybe that can carry the feat, but "learn cure wounds" isn't a great ability for anyone except arcane casters, and there are a few different ways to get that already between Magic Initiate, Artificer Initiate, and I think one of the touched feats.

I mean, you quoted an example where the Wizard was the one taking the feat, it has significantly less value to anyone that doesn't have slots. If you're taking a feat primarily to have a heal, and don't have slots, then it's easily Healer since it's the only one that gives you more than a single use.

The point about this vs Magic Initiate is that it's a pick your casting mod feat, when imo there's very strong flavour ties to it for Cha instead.

I feel the same about choose your own casting mod as I do about this massive push towards prof mod uses, not good.

Dragonsonthemap

2021-04-15, 11:36 AM

Well I may never play anything other than these options again, glad to see them dragonfolks aren't badly underpowered any more.

RogueJK

2021-04-15, 11:41 AM

I foresee a number of Emerald Dragonborn Bearbarians in the future, for people who want All The Resistance.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-15, 11:43 AM

I mean, you quoted an example where the Wizard was the one taking the feat, it has significantly less value to anyone that doesn't have slots. If you're taking a feat primarily to have a heal, and don't have slots, then it's easily Healer since it's the only one that gives you more than a single use.

The point about this vs Magic Initiate is that it's a pick your casting mod feat, when imo there's very strong flavour ties to it for Cha instead.

I feel the same about choose your own casting mod as I do about this massive push towards prof mod uses, not good.

But, I think you are stating the issue like it is the solution.

This feat isn't good for people who don't have spell slots. That cuts out quite a few classes. Then, for the classes that do have spell slots, six of them have this spell natively, and two more can get it something similar with a subclass (Celestial Soul and Celestial Warlock)

That leaves.... wizards. And of all the classes who could have the AC increase (which isn't that great, being only a +1d4 and within 5ft), wizards are the least useful class to have that on.

And, if a wizard really wants a int-based cure wounds... Artificer Initiate gives that to them. With the same spell slot casting. So, this might be better than Artificer Initiate because it gives two abilities, but compare with the other two feats, and this one isn't offering something truly exciting for all classes.

micahaphone

2021-04-15, 12:27 PM

Dork_Forge

2021-04-15, 12:28 PM

But, I think you are stating the issue like it is the solution.

This feat isn't good for people who don't have spell slots. That cuts out quite a few classes. Then, for the classes that do have spell slots, six of them have this spell natively, and two more can get it something similar with a subclass (Celestial Soul and Celestial Warlock)

That leaves.... wizards. And of all the classes who could have the AC increase (which isn't that great, being only a +1d4 and within 5ft), wizards are the least useful class to have that on.

And, if a wizard really wants a int-based cure wounds... Artificer Initiate gives that to them. With the same spell slot casting. So, this might be better than Artificer Initiate because it gives two abilities, but compare with the other two feats, and this one isn't offering something truly exciting for all classes.

It cuts out 4 classes, 2 of which have casting subclasses.

We have a different opinion, just because a class/subclass can have Cure Wounds doesn't mean that they don't benefit by offloading it to a feat rather than their own spell list, especially when it comes with a free casting.

Both of the Paladins (one a Divine Soul Sorcadin), the Ranger (who didn't take CW because of limited spells known), and Bard I Dm would like this feat for both the CW known and freecasting, as well as the AC bump. On top of that the Fighter (Battlemaster) and Rogue/Barbarian would probably enjoy it as well since it offers other character protection and allows them to heal others when needed and themselves between harder fights.

Again, my position is basically, I don't like choose your own stat casting and this feat really isn't as bad as it seems to be coming off.

MaxWilson

2021-04-15, 12:49 PM

Yeah, even though Hexblades have access to Shield, outside of low levels Shield isn't always all that useful on a Hexblade. It's not often worth burning 50% of your 3rd, 4th, or 5th level spell slots on Shield. This gives you an alternate option to leverage your Reaction for a defensive boost.

Compare to Defensive Duelist, which is another feat that lets you use your Reaction for defensive benefit:

DD Pros:
-Fixed AC bonus that scales with Proficiency
-Unlimited uses per day

DD Cons
-Minimum DEX requirement
-Must be wielding a Finesse weapon
-No Cure Wounds
-Not Shareable
-Only usable against melee attacks

Just a quick note here to say "must be wielding a Finesse weapon [at the time when DD is invoked]" isn't as big of a restriction as I once thought it was. A Crossbow Expert with Defensive Duelist can e.g. draw a dagger every round after shooting his crossbow, and then drop it before the next round of shooting. Ditto for a GWM user.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-15, 01:08 PM

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I feel a bit weird about the flavoring of Kobold's Mighty Roar ability - like, the little fellow does a surprisingly terrifying draconic roar, but only things within 10 ft can hear it? Or does a kobold's attempt at projecting their voice really fall off quickly, so someone 15 or 20 ft away doesn't get the impressive effect?

10 ft is just when you get really hit by it. Subsonic sound effected bodies is a real thing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It cuts out 4 classes, 2 of which have casting subclasses.

We have a different opinion, just because a class/subclass can have Cure Wounds doesn't mean that they don't benefit by offloading it to a feat rather than their own spell list, especially when it comes with a free casting.

Both of the Paladins (one a Divine Soul Sorcadin), the Ranger (who didn't take CW because of limited spells known), and Bard I Dm would like this feat for both the CW known and freecasting, as well as the AC bump. On top of that the Fighter (Battlemaster) and Rogue/Barbarian would probably enjoy it as well since it offers other character protection and allows them to heal others when needed and themselves between harder fights.

Again, my position is basically, I don't like choose your own stat casting and this feat really isn't as bad as it seems to be coming off.

But, here is the thing. Is "I don't have to prepare this anymore" worth giving up a different feat? Is the Paladin really seeing this as a great option compared to Warcaster to get advantage on con save versus losing Bless? OR Sentinel?

It is convenient, sure, but feats should be more than convenient

x3n0n

2021-04-15, 01:21 PM

Again, my position is basically, I don't like choose your own stat casting and this feat really isn't as bad as it seems to be coming off.

Are those separate points? I feel like I've lost the thread of your argument(s?).

The choose-your-own-stat thing with respect to Cure Wounds is "Wizards shouldn't get it", as far as I can tell (Wis and Cha can just, you know, take the spell through any of several other means). I can be sympathetic to the Int/Wizard thing.

As far as the feat being good: I can believe that players would be happy taking it, especially a spells-known caster who expects to be targeted by enough attacks to have several barely-hits in an adventuring day.
I doubt that it is a particularly effective choice for any character without spell slots, but whatever.

GooeyChewie

2021-04-15, 01:22 PM

I'm not saying it's an amazing feat, but I don't think it's a bad feat by any stretch.

That's kind of where I am on it. This feat generally won't be your best option, but it might be good based on your specific build and your party's dynamics.

Snowbluff

2021-04-15, 01:31 PM

I quite like being able to breath in place of an attack. I want to make a dragonborn bladesinger now, to just replace everything hahaha.

I will say that I'm a bit wary of the metal dragon's ability to incapacitate on an AoE as an attack, even if it's 1/LR.

I think Gem dragon might get nerfed. It's a bit loaded, with good damage types on breath, telepathy and flight. I would like to retain the telepathy for flavor, so I guess we'll see what they do with the flight.

Finally, I like the new spin on kobold to make them less swingy (garbage in sunlight, borderline OP in dark with Pact Tactics). However, I dislike the flavor of a "roar" on them. It should be more like a screech, or opossum hissing. :smalltongue:

Dork_Forge

2021-04-15, 01:39 PM

But, here is the thing. Is "I don't have to prepare this anymore" worth giving up a different feat? Is the Paladin really seeing this as a great option compared to Warcaster to get advantage on con save versus losing Bless? OR Sentinel?

It is convenient, sure, but feats should be more than convenient

Again, the feat is not that one thing, it is an additional point of consideration that can make it appealing (the same way that I like using Magic Initiate to grab Shield on a Sorcerer sometimes).

You reduced everyone that would benefit from it to basically Wizards, I just explained why that isn't how I see things, based on my own preferences and in game experiences with a variety of players (for whatever it's worth, said players all differ greatly in experience, from a 2nd edition player all the way up to started within the last year).

The comparison to all feats is also just nonsensical, a player can just simply not be interested in the feats you named because it doesn't fit their image of their character or their preferred playstyle. One Paladin has cast Bless a couple times, the other has never even prepared it and tries to maximise simultaneous support and damage. Neither have expressed any interest in Warcaster, it wasn't even in the running to them.

Feats don't compete against all feats simply because they exist, in practice they compete against other feats the player in question is considering for their character, making like for like feats the closest to consistent means of comparison. It's so player to player, table to table different that you can't write off any feat unless it is spectacularly terrible.

Are those separate points? I feel like I've lost the thread of your argument(s?).

They are.

The choose-your-own-stat thing with respect to Cure Wounds is "Wizards shouldn't get it", as far as I can tell (Wis and Cha can just, you know, take the spell through any of several other means). I can be sympathetic to the Int/Wizard thing.

Basically yes, Wizards already get too much that their identity is basically all kinds of spells except for healing. It shouldn't (in my opinion) be easy or synergistic for a Wizard to grab an Int keyed healing spell.

As far as the feat being good: I can believe that players would be happy taking it, especially a spells-known caster who expects to be targeted by enough attacks to have several barely-hits in an adventuring day.
I doubt that it is a particularly effective choice for any character without spell slots, but whatever.

I can agree with that.

That's kind of where I am on it. This feat generally won't be your best option, but it might be good based on your specific build and your party's dynamics.

Exactly.

Warder

2021-04-15, 01:47 PM

I don't know about anyone else, but this does not make me feel like a dragon. They seem...flat? Like, great, they added gem dragons. Wahoo.

But the feats are one-dimensional. Everything seems to be geared toward damage.

I look at this and I think, "Is this it? Is this the best Wizards of the Coast has to offer?"

Thank you for saying that! Sometimes I feel like it's just me being grumpy and I worry I've become a grognard, so it's good to feel that I'm not the only one who feels this way. I just... I don't know. 5e design has just become so uninspired. It's all so neat and samey. Arcane magic is divine magic is psionics is ki, all the same. Races, classes, subclasses, feats... it's just so similar, I just don't get the spark of wonder I've always felt for D&D out of it. It feels like there's this big cloud of Balance and Simplicity that overpowers any attempt to color outside the lines, if that makes sense. The other week, it struck me that the last time I was truly excited for anything to come out of 5e was when the Mystic was in UA, and we all know what became of that.

At the same time, there are so many people who love 5e for what it does, so I'm pretty sure the best thing for me is to just accept that this edition is slipping away from me and start looking elsewhere. :(

(Edit: Not ruling out that I've become a grognard anyway, but at least I'm not alone in it. :smallwink:)

Omni-Centrist

2021-04-15, 01:48 PM

I'm super curious about two builds:

My Monk 1/ Bladesinger X, used to be Variant Human/Custom Origin for Unarmed Fighting style via Fighting Initiative, now I can recreate that with a slight downgrade via Kobold Tail Variant.

My Ascendant Dragon X/ Bladesinger 2 build seems like it will get a little bit more splashy with the AOE damage with both Extra Attacks consisting of, at Level 5 AD, one 3d8 Cone and one 2d6 Cone. That's on average 23 damage on both fails, 11 on success, which is still really nice if you're hitting a crowd.

MaxWilson

2021-04-15, 02:04 PM

Thank you for saying that! Sometimes I feel like it's just me being grumpy and I worry I've become a grognard, so it's good to feel that I'm not the only one who feels this way. I just... I don't know. 5e design has just become so uninspired. It's all so neat and samey. Arcane magic is divine magic is psionics is ki, all the same. Races, classes, subclasses, feats... it's just so similar, I just don't get the spark of wonder I've always felt for D&D out of it. It feels like there's this big cloud of Balance and Simplicity that overpowers any attempt to color outside the lines, if that makes sense. The other week, it struck me that the last time I was truly excited for anything to come out of 5e was when the Mystic was in UA, and we all know what became of that.

At the same time, there are so many people who love 5e for what it does, so I'm pretty sure the best thing for me is to just accept that this edition is slipping away from me and start looking elsewhere. :(

(Edit: Not ruling out that I've become a grognard anyway, but at least I'm not alone in it. :smallwink:)

As someone who feels very similarly about most UAs and about Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (uninspired, many classes have no thematic reason to exist as something separate from the PHB classes--the game mechanics are sort of new but the themes aren't unique), may I offer my sympathies and also say that I've gotten a lot of satisfaction from the Chtulhu book (https://petersengames.com/the-games-shop/cthulhu-mythos-for-5e/), which showed me that 5E doesn't have to be uninspired and samey.

Warder

2021-04-15, 02:15 PM

As someone who feels very similarly about most UAs and about Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (uninspired, many classes have no thematic reason to exist as something separate from the PHB classes--the game mechanics are sort of new but the themes aren't unique), may I offer my sympathies and also say that I've gotten a lot of satisfaction from the Chtulhu book (https://petersengames.com/the-games-shop/cthulhu-mythos-for-5e/), which showed me that 5E doesn't have to be uninspired and samey.

Thank you for pointing it out, I'll definitely check it out! And yeah, I think that's what gets to me the most - the foundations for 5e are so solid and it feels like it was designed for modularity, to be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. But everything official that comes out of WotC is just more of the same, and that's what's disappointing to me. But I guess that means that others step up to the plate, so it's a good opportunity for me to look to third party publishers, that's a very compelling point.

Dragonsonthemap

2021-04-15, 03:01 PM

micahaphone

2021-04-15, 03:38 PM

RogueJK

2021-04-15, 03:48 PM

I'm assuming Icingdeath is a famous known dragon from a previous edition or novel

Yep. It's a dragon from "The Crystal Shard", the 1988 Forgotten Realms novel that first introduced Drizzt Do'Urden.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-15, 03:57 PM

Again, the feat is not that one thing, it is an additional point of consideration that can make it appealing (the same way that I like using Magic Initiate to grab Shield on a Sorcerer sometimes).

You reduced everyone that would benefit from it to basically Wizards, I just explained why that isn't how I see things, based on my own preferences and in game experiences with a variety of players (for whatever it's worth, said players all differ greatly in experience, from a 2nd edition player all the way up to started within the last year).

The comparison to all feats is also just nonsensical, a player can just simply not be interested in the feats you named because it doesn't fit their image of their character or their preferred playstyle. One Paladin has cast Bless a couple times, the other has never even prepared it and tries to maximise simultaneous support and damage. Neither have expressed any interest in Warcaster, it wasn't even in the running to them.

Feats don't compete against all feats simply because they exist, in practice they compete against other feats the player in question is considering for their character, making like for like feats the closest to consistent means of comparison. It's so player to player, table to table different that you can't write off any feat unless it is spectacularly terrible.

I don't think they need to be spectacularly terrible to be badly designed.

To give an example, Chef. I am literally playing a cook, who is notable for making meals from monsters and feeding the entire party, consistently. A few party members have mentioned the feat, and I would love to have a feat tied to this iconic image of my character.... But I'm never taking Chef. It isn't worth it.

And if Gift of the Metallic Dragons was already published and set in stone, I might just grumble and leave it alone, but it isn't. And at my tables, in every way I can think of, that Cure Wounds isn't worth it. Heck, if you are willing to give up your action to give a small heal to an ally who went down... why not feed them a potion? There are so many ways to get a small 1/day healing for emergency situations, and Cure Wounds just isn't a good option most of the time, and this is costing me an entire feat to take.

The Wings might carry the feat. That is a decently solid ability, little randomly swingy compared to some other things I would think about though. Like the Protection fighting style which is really comparable to a +1d4 AC, and it unlimited in the same range, and could be taken by anyone with the Fighting Style Feat.

I think the Chromatic feat is awesome, it works well and it works exactly like I expect. I'm pretty sure the Gem feat needs something else, because only working when you take damage is fairly limited for a lot of classes, but the Metallic feat feels like it is a cool idea, with some rough edges that need sanded to make it better.

GooeyChewie

2021-04-15, 03:57 PM

I do like the spell name "Icingdeath's Frost Breath" - I'm assuming Icingdeath is a famous known dragon from a previous edition or novel, but I can't help but think of a very imposing ancient white dragon that runs a patisserie, known for impeccable frosting and glazes.

Yep. It's a dragon from "The Crystal Shard", the 1988 Forgotten Realms novel that first introduced Drizzt Do'Urden.

Drizzt? That's way less fun. I'm dropping that whole book from my headcanon and sticking with the pastry chef idea! Icingdeath is his nickname; his real name is Paul Scaleywood.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-15, 04:38 PM

I don't think they need to be spectacularly terrible to be badly designed.

To give an example, Chef. I am literally playing a cook, who is notable for making meals from monsters and feeding the entire party, consistently. A few party members have mentioned the feat, and I would love to have a feat tied to this iconic image of my character.... But I'm never taking Chef. It isn't worth it.

This is absolutely meaningless, you haven't said anything about your character other than something you roleplay.

-Chef is a half feat, if you don't have an odd Wisdom, or don't use Wisdom as a primary or secondary stat, it's appeal drops massively.

-If your party doesn't take many short rests, the value plummets

-If you already have prof in cook's utensil's the value plummets

-If your party already has a rich source of temp hp, that little value plummets

So depending on your character and party/tablestyle, it could be entirely invalid. Meanwhile one of my groups had cloaks commissioned that I decided would allow them to use their reaction to roll a hit die and reduce damage another party member takes. Their hit dice are now a premium resource and they don't have a Bard, they'd love a Chef.

My other party just finished a Dungeon where the Barbarian ran out of hit die half way through and had to rely on potions and the others healing him to recover. A Chef would have elongated his pool greatly.

And if Gift of the Metallic Dragons was already published and set in stone, I might just grumble and leave it alone, but it isn't. And at my tables, in every way I can think of, that Cure Wounds isn't worth it. Heck, if you are willing to give up your action to give a small heal to an ally who went down... why not feed them a potion? There are so many ways to get a small 1/day healing for emergency situations, and Cure Wounds just isn't a good option most of the time, and this is costing me an entire feat to take.

Good think it isn't just for Cure Wounds then, isn't it?

I'm not sure why you're equating CW to a small heal, it's a substantial portion of a character's hp in Tier 1, can be upcast if the PC has slots for larger heals.

Why are you assuming potions are in play at all? You can rely everyday on something like the use of CW in question, potions vary by table and time of the campaign.

The Wings might carry the feat. That is a decently solid ability, little randomly swingy compared to some other things I would think about though. Like the Protection fighting style which is really comparable to a +1d4 AC, and it unlimited in the same range, and could be taken by anyone with the Fighting Style Feat.

Protection is better, since you can negate Crits with the disadvantage.

I think the Chromatic feat is awesome, it works well and it works exactly like I expect. I'm pretty sure the Gem feat needs something else, because only working when you take damage is fairly limited for a lot of classes, but the Metallic feat feels like it is a cool idea, with some rough edges that need sanded to make it better.

I like the Gift of the Chromatic Dragon, a TWF Fighter with it would be a force to be reckoned with.

Gem is eh, it's basically the Artificers Repulsion Shield but trading guaranteed push for the potential of damage.

x3n0n

2021-04-15, 04:49 PM

I like the Gift of the Chromatic Dragon, a TWF Fighter with it would be a force to be reckoned with.

I also like it, but TWF seems like a bad fit for it as written--it applies to one weapon of your choice, so the off-hand weapon doesn't get any benefit. (Am I missing something?)
The usual winners benefit, though: PAM, XBE, GWM when lucky.

When the survey comes, I hope I remember to suggest that they add something to make it apply to unarmed strikes, or just "touch a creature; all of their weapon attacks" have the benefit, which neatly fixes the TWF problem at the same time.

Zevox

2021-04-15, 05:16 PM

Looks pretty good to me overall. I like the new Dragonborn variants, they're definitely an improvement - though I only very vaguely recall ever hearing about "Gem Dragons" before, so that one's a touch weird to me. I'm not so sure about the Kobold rework, though. I mean, it's almost certainly stronger than the existing version, but it looks to me like it loses the flavor. No more Sunlight Sensitivity + Pack Tactics, and the roar replaces Grovel, Cower, Beg? Plus they can have advantage on saves versus fear or a free cantrip, which just seems out of place. My group actually has a Kobold PC right now, but I'd be surprised if he'd want to switch to this version, as it really doesn't match the character.

Some of the spells are cool, I particularly like Icingdeath's Frost and Nathair's Mischief. Though it is odd to me to have a dragon summoning spell, since summoning spells traditionally only call things from other planes, which, well, there is such a thing as dragon variants that exist on other planes, but this feels like it's just simulating summoning a normal dragon. Definitely nice to have more dragon-themed spells for Draconic Sorcerers though.

For the feats, I like the Chromatic one, but the other two look a touch weak to me, personally. Not sure what to recommend for them though.

Nagog

2021-04-15, 06:44 PM

PhantomSoul

2021-04-15, 07:27 PM

... I have nothing against the new stats they have ...

Makes sense; they didn't actually give the new defective races any stats!

Purple instead of blue because it's not really a joke despite being a lighthearted jab at WOTC being bad at this.

P. G. Macer

2021-04-15, 07:31 PM

Honestly, I hate that all these new races are steamrolling the Volo's monster races. First Hobgoblins are rewritten as Fey (when they were easily the most viable and lore-heavy of the Goblin subraces) and now Kobolds are completely overwritten. I have nothing against the new stats they have, but why slap an already-used name on them instead of coming up with something that's new-new?

Outside of optimization forums, I got the impression that kobolds were rather unpopular, mechanically speaking, as most players looked past Pack Tactics and saw Sunlight Sensitivity, (formerly) –2 Strength, and an ability, that while useful, was unusable without re-flavoring if you wanted your kobold either to be a badass or to not be comic relief in combat. I suspect that the new kobold is going to be both more popular among the general player base and less so than the original amongst the kind of people that go on Reddit or GITP to talk about 5e (This is my general impression, I don’t have the data to back it up).

EDIT: Forgot to link this to the post I quoted. This is relevant because I think WotC might be trying to encourage players to play a race with the name “kobold” even if it isn’t their first try at the race.

On a related note, Wizards has reverted to calling fantasy-races races again, instead of lineages or something else euphemistic or ham-fisted, deepening on your beliefs.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-15, 08:26 PM

This is absolutely meaningless, you haven't said anything about your character other than something you roleplay.

-Chef is a half feat, if you don't have an odd Wisdom, or don't use Wisdom as a primary or secondary stat, it's appeal drops massively.

-If your party doesn't take many short rests, the value plummets

-If you already have prof in cook's utensil's the value plummets

-If your party already has a rich source of temp hp, that little value plummets

So depending on your character and party/tablestyle, it could be entirely invalid. Meanwhile one of my groups had cloaks commissioned that I decided would allow them to use their reaction to roll a hit die and reduce damage another party member takes. Their hit dice are now a premium resource and they don't have a Bard, they'd love a Chef.

My other party just finished a Dungeon where the Barbarian ran out of hit die half way through and had to rely on potions and the others healing him to recover. A Chef would have elongated his pool greatly.

Druid, but we do have a lot of healing, and we are doing play by post, so rests and such are very odd.

But, I think you put up one of my big issues with these feat (other than being mediocre in terms of healing or temp hp). If I have proficiency in Cook's Tools (ie, I chose to be a Chef) then the value of the Chef feat plummets. That is a design flaw. A person with Cook's Tools is exactly the type of person who should get the MOST value out of that feat, but that is a reason to not take it. That is poor design.

Is the feat unusuably terrible? No, there are clearly worse feats, but even as a Druid Chef, I don't want the Chef feat, because it doesn't offer enough to be worth a feat.

Good think it isn't just for Cure Wounds then, isn't it?

I'm not sure why you're equating CW to a small heal, it's a substantial portion of a character's hp in Tier 1, can be upcast if the PC has slots for larger heals.

Why are you assuming potions are in play at all? You can rely everyday on something like the use of CW in question, potions vary by table and time of the campaign.

Tier 1 ends at level 5. The earliest most people can get this feat is level 4. I don't care about Tier 1 play in this case, it is very likely that this feat is getting used in tier 2, where Cure Wounds isn't a substantial portion of someone's hp.

As for why I am equating it to a small heal, because most non-casters who want the AC buff are likely to have lower mental scores. You are likely looking at 1d8+2 as the heal. Which is 6.5 hp on average. On characters who have 35 to 50 hp. Or, 1/6 at best, and getting closer to 10%. Which isn't nothing, but it is also less than a single weapon attack. So, it isn't going to be good for much.

And, while yes a table may change things, a basic potion which heals 7 hp on average is in the PHB and costs only 50 gp. That isn't a major investment, and it is expected gear, just like I can expect people to have access to Shields and Longswords.

Protection is better, since you can negate Crits with the disadvantage.

Yes, which is why I said "really comparable". Protection is likely a better ability, but they are close enough to make the point.

I like the Gift of the Chromatic Dragon, a TWF Fighter with it would be a force to be reckoned with.

Gem is eh, it's basically the Artificers Repulsion Shield but trading guaranteed push for the potential of damage.

Agreed, though I want to give it to a monk using a pair of knuckle dusters and get some serious ascendant dragon awesome sauce going on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Outside of optimization forums, I got the impression that kobolds were rather unpopular, mechanically speaking, as most players looked past Pack Tactics and saw Sunlight Sensitivity, (formerly) –2 Strength, and an ability, that while useful, was unusable without re-flavoring if you wanted your kobold either to be a badass or to not be comic relief in combat. I suspect that the new kobold is going to be both more popular among the general player base and less so than the original amongst the kind of people that go on Reddit or GITP to talk about 5e (This is my general impression, I don’t have the data to back it up).

EDIT: Forgot to link this to the post I quoted. This is relevant because I think WotC might be trying to encourage players to play a race with the name “kobold” even if it isn’t their first try at the race.

On a related note, Wizards has reverted to calling fantasy-races races again, instead of lineages or something else euphemistic or ham-fisted, deepening on your beliefs.

I think after the -2 strength the biggest offender was Grovel, Cower, Beg. No one I knew had any interest in that ability. I actually went and found a homebrew Kobold because I had a player who really wanted to play a kobold, but couldn't stand that ability.

Kane0

2021-04-15, 09:20 PM

Yeah, but it's been over half a decade since this edition came out.

I'm just... yeah, it's balanced. Whoopee. I don't mean to sound like a grumpy grognard here, but I just want my players to do something more interesting. I've already got a barbarian who wants to do more than just say, "I attack."

Thank you for saying that! Sometimes I feel like it's just me being grumpy and I worry I've become a grognard, so it's good to feel that I'm not the only one who feels this way. I just... I don't know. 5e design has just become so uninspired.
I took another look and thought I'd make some adjustments. Nothing earthshattering but I tried to put *something* in there.

Dragonborn
Languages: Common and Draconic
+2 Strength or Charisma
+1 to one attribute of choice
60' Darkvision
Awesome presence: Half prof bonus on any Charisma checks you aren't already proficient in.

Chromatic Heritage:
Damage resistance: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Poison
Breath Weapon: Replaces an attack, 15' cone or 30' line (choose when breathing), 2d8 damage of same type as your resistance or half with Dex save (DC 8 + Prof + Con). Usable half Prof times per short/long rest, damage increases by 1d8 at levels 5, 11 and 17
Hoardsense: You have advantage on Intelligence and Wisdom checks regarding art, jewellery and other valuables

Metallic Heritage:
Damage Resistance: Acid, Cold, Fire or Lightning
Breath Weapon: Replaces an attack, 15' Cone, Con save (DC 8 + Prof + Con) or either be pushed 15' and knocked prone or incapacitated until start of next turn (choose when breathing). Usable half Prof times per short/long rest, push increases by 5' at levels 5, 11 and 17
Mingler: Can cast Disguise Self on yourself once per long rest, which lasts until you attack or take damage.

Gem Heritage:
Damage Resistance: Force, Necrotic, Psychic, Radiant, Thunder
Breath Weapon: Replaces an attack, 30' line, 2d6 damage of same type as your resistance or half with a Dex save (DC 8 + Prof + Con). Usable half Prof times per short/long rest, damage increases by 1d6 at levels 5, 11 and 17.
Psionic Mind: Telepathically communicate with creatures within 30' of you as long as they have a language.

Dragonborn Racial Feat: Draconic Inheritance
- You gain an additional use of your Breath weapon between short/long rests
- As a bonus action, you can expend a use of your breath weapon to enhance your melee attacks for one minute, adding +1d4 damage of the same type as your resistance to each attack
- As an action, you can expend two uses of your breath weapon to gain one of these for 1 minute: Immunity to your resisted damage type, Flight speed of 30' or Blindsense out to half the range of your Darkvision.

For bonus points: Drop the +1 stat portions of the Dragon Hide and Dragon Fear feats and merge them, and add in the Kobold Roar (advantage to allies) as an alternative to the Fear Roar (frightened to enemies).

Kobold
Small size, 25' speed
Languages: Common and Draconic
+2 Dex
+1 to Wis or Cha
60' Darkvision
Cower, Grovel & Beg: Being prone gives you advantage on checks to pass off as unthreatening, and doesn't give advantage to attackers within 5' of you
Nimble: You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.
Proficiency in Poisoner's, Potter's, Tinker's or Woodcarver's Tools.

Dragonwrought:
Draconic ties: You know one Cantrip from the Sorcerer spell list. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast one 1st level Sorcerer spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
Gain by suffering: If you fail a saving throw against a spell you gain advantage on the next saving throw you make within 1 minute.

Urd:
Wings: 30' Flight speed while not encumbered or wearing medium/heavy armor
Semi-prehensile tail: You can hold handheld items of up to 5 lbs in your tail

Warrenden:
Ambusher: You deal an extra +2d4 damage with attacks against Surprised creatures
Burrow: 10' Burrowing speed

For Bonus Points: If you are using Flanking rules, a substitute or supplementary feature could be that Kobolds don't need to be directly behind a target to get a flank

GeneralVryth

2021-04-15, 09:42 PM

I took another look and thought I'd make some adjustments. Nothing earthshattering but I tried to put *something* in there.

Dragonborn
Languages: Common and Draconic
+2 Strength or Charisma
+1 to one attribute of choice
60' Darkvision
Awesome presence: Half prof bonus on any Charisma checks you aren't already proficient in.

Chromatic Heritage:
Damage resistance: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Poison
Breath Weapon: Replaces an attack, 15' cone or 30' line (choose when breathing), 2d8 damage of same type as your resistance or half with Dex save (DC 8 + Prof + Con). Usable half Prof times per short/long rest, damage increases by 1d8 at levels 5, 11 and 17
Hoardsense: You have advantage on Intelligence and Wisdom checks regarding art, jewellery and other valuables

Metallic Heritage:
Damage Resistance: Acid, Cold, Fire or Lightning
Breath Weapon: Replaces an attack, 15' Cone, Con save (DC 8 + Prof + Con) or either be pushed 15' and knocked prone or incapacitated until start of next turn (choose when breathing). Usable half Prof times per short/long rest, push increases by 5' at levels 5, 11 and 17
Mingler: Can cast Disguise Self on yourself once per long rest, which lasts until you attack or take damage.

Gem Heritage:
Damage Resistance: Force, Necrotic, Psychic, Radiant, Thunder
Breath Weapon: Replaces an attack, 30' line, 2d6 damage of same type as your resistance or half with a Dex save (DC 8 + Prof + Con). Usable half Prof times per short/long rest, damage increases by 1d6 at levels 5, 11 and 17.
Psionic Mind: Telepathically communicate with creatures within 30' of you as long as they have a language.

Dragonborn Racial Feat: Draconic Inheritance
- You gain an additional use of your Breath weapon between short/long rests
- As a bonus action, you can expend a use of your breath weapon to enhance your melee attacks for one minute, adding +1d4 damage of the same type as your resistance to each attack
- As an action, you can expend two uses of your breath weapon to gain one of these for 1 minute: Immunity to your resisted damage type, Flight speed of 30' or Blindsense out to half the range of your Darkvision.

For bonus points: Drop the +1 stat portions of the Dragon Hide and Dragon Fear feats and merge them, and add in the Kobold Roar (advantage to allies) as an alternative to the Fear Roar (frightened to enemies).

Kobold
Small size, 25' speed
Languages: Common and Draconic
+2 Dex
+1 to Wis or Cha
60' Darkvision
Cower, Grovel & Beg: Being prone gives you advantage on checks to pass off as unthreatening, and doesn't give advantage to attackers within 5' of you
Nimble: You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.
Proficiency in Poisoner's, Potter's, Tinker's or Woodcarver's Tools.

Dragonwrought:
Draconic ties: You know one Cantrip from the Sorcerer spell list. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast one 1st level Sorcerer spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
Gain by suffering: If you fail a saving throw against a spell you gain advantage on the next saving throw you make within 1 minute.

Urd:
Wings: 30' Flight speed while not encumbered or wearing medium/heavy armor
Semi-prehensile tail: You can hold handheld items of up to 5 lbs in your tail

Warrenden:
Ambusher: You deal an extra +2d4 damage with attacks against Surprised creatures
Burrow: 10' Burrowing speed

For Bonus Points: If you are using Flanking rules, a substitute or supplementary feature could be that Kobolds don't need to be directly behind a target to get a flank

I think all of that is better than what is in the UA for what it's worth.

Luccan

2021-04-15, 10:04 PM

Literally all I wanted out of Dragonborn is the ability to use the breath weapon multiple times without relying on a rest. It's interesting, they can theoretically use it less in this version (since recharge is long rest only), but in practice I rarely see more than 1 or 2 short rests per day, so it's effectively increased their uses. This is most certainly the sort of ability that should be tied to proficiency. Better damage die is appreciated as well. I don't know why the different dragonborn types don't just get their draconic ancestry's breath shape, though. It doesn't seem to have a purpose. I kind of like Metallics getting a secondary breath weapon, but I wonder if there would be balance issues using the ones the dragons already have. I find the Push breath really funny. You have a breath attack, it's kind of a strong force which pushes enemies away but can't actually hurt them. It's in no way related to the Amethyst's Force breath attack, which is a strong force that does damage but can't move anything.

I wasn't fond of kobolds being shoe-horned into Grovel, Cower, and Beg, so this is a fine alternative. Though I want this to be an option, not a replacement, since the original kobold was fine mechanically and worked for some concepts. I like that they get more of a tie-in with Sorcerers. I suppose this also proves Sunlight Sensitivity was there all along as a counter to Pack Tactics. I also like that there is now an option for kobolds that doesn't have an explicit drawback.

Azuresun

2021-04-16, 02:38 AM

I think that's kind of the issue, you're not being entirely silly. These are kobolds. The lemmings of D&D. One of their premier monsters is an "inventor" with such tools as: a scorpion on a stick. A grenade that's just a wasp nest. And the terrible bio warfare tool known as skunk in a cage.

This kobold reads like it's trying to be all cool and draconic, and that's not what a kobold is. Kobolds are these insane weird little things that make goblins look tough.

I keep thinking of that bit in The Lion King, where young Simba tries to intimidate the hyenas. And I agree, it doesn't fit the "plucky underdog" image that I'd associate with a kobold PC at all. Like with the original, just give the "assist allies" ability a more neutral name like "Diversionary Tactic" or "Draw Attention", and it's fine!

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-16, 08:53 AM

P. G. Macer

2021-04-16, 11:53 AM

Man, these races look so bare with no ability score increases.

Do they represent mechanical improvements over PHB Dragonborn? Sure.

Would I ever want to play one? No.

They just don't seem interesting to me. As another poster mentioned earlier, there's a distinct lack of ribbons or out-of-combat abilities, with only the Gem dragon really getting anything in that department.

Added to that, there's the issue that the limitations on the breath weapon mean you only get to feel like a dragon a few times each day.

Meh.

I agree on the free-floating ASIs, though the why behind that is a rabbit hole best not gone into. It is worth noting about the breath weapon, however, that since it’s now PB per Long Rest instead of 1 per Short/Long Rest, along with being useable as one attack in the Attack Action, that it’s more likely to both see use at all and see more uses per day than the PHB breath weapon.

GooeyChewie

2021-04-16, 02:16 PM

Man, these races look so bare with no ability score increases.
I agree. I wish they would put suggested ASIs. Or at a minimum, put the "choose +2 to one and +1 to another or +1 to three" in each race/lineage, especially if they aren't all going to allow the "+1 to three" option. Gothic lineages didn't allow it, but I'm not sure if that's a matter of WotC not wanting them to have it, or simply that they hadn't thought of allowing it until after that UA was published.

Do they represent mechanical improvements over PHB Dragonborn? Sure.

Would I ever want to play one? No..
I play Dragonborn from time to time, so I'll probably play one of these at some point. Right when the pandemic hit I was in a campaign using a Dragonborn of silver lineage. If we can pick it back up soon (which seems reasonable; the whole group has gotten at least their first shot), I'll likely ask if I can switch to the Metallic Dragonborn race.

That said, if Dragonborn don't excite you, I can totally see why somebody wouldn't want to play one. This UA feels more like a balance patch to buff an underpowered race (and rework a wonky one) than actual new content.

MaxWilson

2021-04-16, 05:57 PM

I agree on the free-floating ASIs, though the why behind that is a rabbit hole best not gone into. It is worth noting about the breath weapon, however, that since it’s now PB per Long Rest instead of 1 per Short/Long Rest, along with being useable as one attack in the Attack Action, that it’s more likely to both see use at all and see more uses per day than the PHB breath weapon.

Even more importantly, it's more likely to see multiple uses in the same combat, for combats where it is relevant (large numbers of non-immune enemies). It's a good change.

I agree that the races look bare without ASIs though, especially the Kobold. If you didn't already know what a Kobold was, you might get the impression from this UA that they're big scary monsters.

I agree. I wish they would put suggested ASIs.

Yeah, similar to PHB "quick builds" where they say stuff like "Enchanters should boost Int and then either Con or Dex and then Cha." Doesn't mean you can't ignore their advice, but it helps convey the theme of the subclass. Saying that Kobolds generally have high Dex and low Str was previously a useful data point for to conveying what they're like, but... clearly WotC doesn't agree any more.

Gyor

2021-04-17, 03:37 PM

Man, these races look so bare with no ability score increases.

Do they represent mechanical improvements over PHB Dragonborn? Sure.

Would I ever want to play one? No.

They just don't seem interesting to me. As another poster mentioned earlier, there's a distinct lack of ribbons or out-of-combat abilities, with only the Gem dragon really getting anything in that department.

Added to that, there's the issue that the limitations on the breath weapon mean you only get to feel like a dragon a few times each day.

Meh.

I disagree, they have some really cool flavour IMHO, given they can have any set up for their ability points, you can figure it out for yourself.

Kane0

2021-04-17, 04:04 PM

I disagree, they have some really cool flavour IMHO, given they can have any set up for their ability points, you can figure it out for yourself.

But thanks to Tashas all races can claim the same now.

For what its worth i added more ribbons above

Lord Vukodlak

2021-04-17, 04:36 PM

And again with the small races getting 30-ft movement speed. At this point, just errata the speed for Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings!
Well the basic MM Kobold has a speed of 30ft. Volo's version has a speed of 30ftEven if you go back to 3rd edition Kobolds were faster then other smaller races. The Kobolds reputation as dirty cowards would be kinda hard to pull off if they were to slow to runaway.

altasilvapuer

2021-04-17, 04:44 PM

One thing that keeps jumping out at me every time I read this is the difference between dragonborn and half-dragons, at least in Forgotten Realms. The dragonborn that came from Abeir and that currently populate Tymanther, et al., are repeatedly described as not looking like their draconic ancestors, at least in terms of scale color and the like. Half-dragons, in contrast, are more explicitly similar to their draconic parent in visual appearance, due to the closer genealogical distance.

The first dragonborn had scales of vibrant hues matching the colors of their dragon kin, but generations of interbreeding have created a more uniform appearance. Their small, fine scales are usually brass or bronze in color, sometimes ranging to scarlet, rust, gold, or copper-green."
Granted, in fairness and full disclosure, this is basically the "Tieflings are always red" ruling and it seems to be treated largely the same in the player base. Also, in the second paragraph of that same section, we also get the following:

The blood of a particular type of dragon runs very strong through some dragonborn clans. These dragonborn often boast scales that more closely match those of their dragon ancestor—bright red, green, blue or white, lustrous black, or gleaming metallic gold, silver, brass, copper, or bronze.

Even still, the visual descriptions of the dragonborn in the UA seem to have utterly thrown aside that first-paragraph description, and they feel like they're trending much closer to that of true half-dragons, at least to me. I can't quite put my finger to specifics of why, and that's not necessarily a bad thing anyway, especially given how often people seem to either conflate the two races and/or use dragonborn mechanics to represent half-dragon PCs. That said, I'd honestly love to see an official release that offers half-dragon player options more explicitly, and this second pass at dragonborn feels like the perfect opportunity to do that.

-asp

thoroughlyS

2021-04-17, 04:52 PM

altasilvapuer

2021-04-17, 05:08 PM

In my experience, every other player I've talked to assumes that dragonborn are vibrantly colored already. I'm seriously the only person in my group that knew or cares. This is just giving players what they already have (just like tieflings). And I also see the divide between dragonborn and half-dragons as the same as tieflings and cambions. Namely, if you want to play a half-dragon or a half-fiend, you can make due with reflavoring the races that already closely resemble that concept.

Oh, don't get me wrong: I agree with you that in practice, this is exactly what happens. All I was saying is that they may as well lean into and either declare them half-dragons or make a point to state that the mechanics also fit half-dragons. This is my own personal hill to die upon, and I don't fault anyone else for thinking me mad.

On a related note: Prior to this UA, has there ever been a notion of dragonborn descended from gem dragons? That might also be one of the things pinging this vague feeling for me. Given the editions where each was (and wasn't) present, I imagine it's the first time it's come up.

-asp

thoroughlyS

2021-04-17, 05:15 PM

Oh, yeah, they should just put that in as a line. And yes, this is the first time gem dragons and dragonborn have been related. It makes sense though.

werescythe

2021-04-17, 06:08 PM

I like the new Kobold race design and the Gift of the Gem Dragon feat would be GREAT for a Telekinetic themed character. :smallsmile:

Kind of wanted a 5th level spell that does Acid damage (since Order of the Scribe can't change any of their 5th level spells into acid due to the wording and lack of 5th level acid spells) and I don't think Summon Draconic Spirit will count (even if you can summon an Acid Dragon Spirit that does Acid damage). :smallfrown:

Chaosmancer

2021-04-17, 09:39 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong: I agree with you that in practice, this is exactly what happens. All I was saying is that they may as well lean into and either declare them half-dragons or make a point to state that the mechanics also fit half-dragons. This is my own personal hill to die upon, and I don't fault anyone else for thinking me mad.

On a related note: Prior to this UA, has there ever been a notion of dragonborn descended from gem dragons? That might also be one of the things pinging this vague feeling for me. Given the editions where each was (and wasn't) present, I imagine it's the first time it's come up.

-asp

Matt Colville made a version when he made Gem Dragons for Strongholds and Followers. They were really tied into how he had his Gem Dragons work though.

Luccan

2021-04-18, 12:51 AM

Does the Gem Dragonborn (and presumably Gem Dragons with them) mean they're going to take another stab at psionics?

thoroughlyS

2021-04-18, 12:56 AM

I wouldn't count on it. The gith were released without a psionic base class present. Also, Tasha's was the most recent big book of player options, so it probably won't be soon (if at all).

Dork_Forge

2021-04-18, 01:10 AM

I wouldn't count on it. The gith were released without a psionic base class present. Also, Tasha's was the most recent big book of player options, so it probably won't be soon (if at all).

I wouldn't rule it out because of the Tasha's thing (though it did bring us two psionic subclasses and two psionic feats), as the Artificer was published first in a setting book as well.

thoroughlyS

2021-04-18, 10:11 AM

Ok, I guess a better metric is to wait until you see a psion Unearthed Arcana. Artificer was in Unearthed Arcana for like half a year before Eberron came out.

Amechra

2021-04-18, 12:27 PM

Amnestic

2021-04-18, 12:47 PM

Amechra

2021-04-18, 01:06 PM

They should've been Warlocks of the Harbor, I'm telling you.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-18, 01:08 PM

They should've been Warlocks of the Harbor, I'm telling you.

My entirely unbiased opinion: Sorcerers of the Inlet

SharkForce

2021-04-18, 01:10 PM

Does the Gem Dragonborn (and presumably Gem Dragons with them) mean they're going to take another stab at psionics?

as I recall, their conclusion after they gave up on the mystic was basically "turns out this is hard, we give up on it".

that doesn't mean they couldn't change their mind, but I suspect it does mean that we're going to see a lot more "this effect that works exactly like any other similar ability is totally psionic because we say so" rather than anything really new or interesting.

MaxWilson

2021-04-18, 01:13 PM

Giving spells to warlocks would step on the toes of wizards getting every spell, sorry.

Except that an individual wizard doesn't.

You get roughly 4 picks from every spell level, so unless a UA spell is better than all but 3 spells of a given level for a given wizard's build, it might as well not exist. You'll get more sympathy from me if you complain about the druid spells in this UA, because they really are accessible to all druids.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-18, 01:38 PM

Right my thoughts:

-Still not a fan of Tasha's stat rules being pushed upon us, this time it looks like they remembered they omitted the +1 +1 +1 option and I suspect will role that back into the others. Part of the identity of Humans is their versatility, when everyone is versatile it's meaningless.

Chromatic Dragonborn

-Hate the Breath weapon changes, lost the personality of the aoe type, simulataneously buffed the dice and the action economy

-Immunity is too much, at minimum needs the time toned down

Metallic Dragonborn

-Still hate the Breath weapon

-It's neat that they are varying up the breath weapon type, incapp'd is too much and by my reading, there's no reason you can't 'take the attack action' and then sub out both attacks for incap gas followed by element breath.

Gem Dragonborn

-Now not only do I hate the Breath weapon, it's even a better damage type, so I think it's fair to say I hate it more now

-Telepathy, not really opposed to this, I don't like how common telepathy is very quickly becoming, but I like the trend towards Psionics

-Wings... really? Did we need more racial flight?

Overall my feelings are that the Gem Dragonborn is just flat better than the other two. Not only do the get better damage types, they get two abilties on top of that vs the 1 of the others.

Kobolds

So... they just 180'd their default theming entirely huh?

They seem like a better Halfling in some ways tbh

-Advantage on Frightened, but Dragonborn don't? Make it a dragon people thing or don't, like Fey Ancestry, this is just weird

-A cantrip from the Sorcerer list... but choosing your own stat for it? No thank you.

-a 1d6 tail attack... why? Why on earth does a tiny Kobolds tail do more damage than a Tabaxi's claws? And why of all things did they go with a tail attack instead of teeth or claws?

-Draconic Roar, so they smashed Pact Tactics and Cower, Grovel, Beg together into this. An overall more powerful feature, that makes absolutely zero thematic sense. This needs a hard nerf, minimum either make it once per SR, or make it an action and the kobold unable to benefit.

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon

I like it, very powerful potentially though

Gift of the Metallic Dragon

-Cure Wounds should be locked to a stat, don't like this trend in general and hate the idea of Wizards being able to get what they aren't meant to have easily and synergistically.

-I like the wings, since it's a die maybe make it a d6 though or 1d4+1

Gift of the Gem Dragon

Not a fan tbh, casters didn't really need another defensive tool, let alone one as potent as this.

Spells

Not going to go over them all, just hate that the Wizard gets everything for no good reason.

Draconic Transformation- Pretty potent, wish the breath weapon wasn't tied to Force

Fizban's- resistance to five damage types, half cover and Evasion. Don't really understand why this exists tbh and don't like it, regardless of it being a 6th level spell has the potential to trivialise encounters

Flame Stride- This is really neat, but it being a 3rd level spell means the Artificer and Ranger aren't getting to use it until higher levels and that kinda sucks, just restrict it more and make it 2nd level

Summon Draconic Spirit- did we really need more summoning spells after the ones we got in Tasha's...? Seems a bit much, getting a high AC dragon for an hour at 9th level and a personal resistance.

Overall not impressed, but I will share some of my bigger take aways here:

-This isn't just race bloat anymore, it's active fragmentation of the game. We didn't need different rules for Kobolds and Dragonborn (especially after the two varieties that were also in Wildemount). You want more dragon people then make new names for them at the very least.

The Breath weapon this just, UGH. I don't think that the breath weapon was ever that bad to begin with, the common change I make in my games is to just add an additional die from the get go so the damage is a little more tempting. What I hate about this is what I hate about the 'make it a bonus action' fix, it doesn't make it a choice, it makes it an inevitability and that's boring. There's not real opprotunity cost if you have Extra Attack, it's just better than attacking (especially if you're a Gem Dragonborn) but to make matters worse... Not only did they majorly buff the action economy of it, they also increased realistic uses (making it more novable at the same time) and increased the die size whilst stripping any personality out?!

It's power creep so horrendously steep I'm struggling to see how it'll hit final form tbh.

The new race UAs are just increasingly worrying about the direction of the game.

Zevox

2021-04-18, 02:37 PM

Am I the only one who's a little annoyed that Warlocks don't get any of these spells?
Given I have actually played a Fey patron Warlock whose patron was Nathair Sgiathach, I do find myself disappointed that Nathair's Mischief in particular isn't a Warlock spell.

P. G. Macer

2021-04-18, 04:21 PM

Right my thoughts:

~Snip~

I agree with a few of your points, but couldn’t disagree more on most of them. From what I’ve seen, the general consensus amongst players is that the PHB dragonborn is tied with the Standard Human for the weakest race in the game, and the breath weapon in particular was very anemic. You argue that the breath weapon in the UA is made into an “inevitability” with the buffs, but before this it was inevitable that the majority of players would never use the breath weapon post-Tier 1, if not post-Level 1, because the opportunity cost was so high Martial dragonborn players would do less damage than with attacking twice, and spell casters do more damage with 1st-level spells such as Burning Hands or Thunderwave.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I get the impression that outside of optimization boards, the Volo’s Guide kobold was not well-received, especially the Grovel, Cower, and Beg and Sunlight Sensitivity features. I know that player in a campaign I was in had a kobold character that did not use GCaB once across all eight levels and 18 months that the campaign lasted, because it was so against the character concept, even when it would have been tactically useful.

In general, I don’t give the “Kobolds are supposed to be cowardly” argument much weight, because not only does Volo’s Guide say that it’s only a largely incorrect stereotype about them, but player characters are supposed to be exceptional, so even if kobolds were cowardly by nature, PC kobolds shouldn’t be pigeonholed into that style of play, nor should reflavoring be a requirement to use a character feature and not be comic relief.

I do agree with you DorkForge on the chromatic’s immunity being too strong and the wizard need not get every single new spell, and the Gem Dragonborn is currently stronger than the other two. However, the flight ability is both limited-use and gated behind 3rd level, just like the Protector Aasimar’s flight, so I think it’s not too big a deal on its own, and only problematic in that the Gem gets more than the Chromatic and Metallic.

Finally, I feel like you’re being a tad hyperbolic with your claims about the fragmentation of the game, though I agree that post-Tasha’s there has been a dramatic paradigm shift in 5e design, especially as it pertains to race, to the point that I agree with the crowd that says 5e post-TCoE is 5.5e in all but name. But to make claims about the power creep (which I agree is there, mind you) as being “horrendously steep” seems uncalled for.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-18, 04:53 PM

I agree with a few of your points, but couldn’t disagree more on most of them. From what I’ve seen, the general consensus amongst players is that the PHB dragonborn is tied with the Standard Human for the weakest race in the game, and the breath weapon in particular was very anemic. You argue that the breath weapon in the UA is made into an “inevitability” with the buffs, but before this it was inevitable that the majority of players would never use the breath weapon post-Tier 1, if not post-Level 1, because the opportunity cost was so high Martial dragonborn players would do less damage than with attacking twice, and spell casters do more damage with 1st-level spells such as Burning Hands or Thunderwave.

I buff the breath weapon in my own games in different ways as I mentioned, my problem here is two fold:

1) The breath weapon is buffed in three different ways (four if you're a gem Dragonborn), it was undertuned before, but definitely not by this much.

2) Making it substitute an attack makes it 'why not' and that's boring to me. There's no real opportunity cost there, it's why I never liked making it a bonus action either.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I get the impression that outside of optimization boards, the Volo’s Guide kobold was not well-received, especially the Grovel, Cower, and Beg and Sunlight Sensitivity features. I know that player in a campaign I was in had a kobold character that did not use GCaB once across all eight levels and 18 months that the campaign lasted, because it was so against the character concept, even when it would have been tactically useful.

I DM a kobold Bard now, he's been playing his character about a year, he chose it for the flavour. I DM'd a kobold Wild Magic Sorc in a one shot at Christmas, he also chose it for flavour. Neither players are really optimisers and neither frequent a board like this, ime the flavour is why people want to be a Kobold, then they start figuring out how to deal with the negatives afterwards.

Personally I just wanted them to be made consistent, give them a +2 +1 spread, and either enhance their Darkvision or remove the Sunlight Sensitivity, as they were they were needinglessly counter to how those abilities were represented in other races.

IMO it was clear that the monstrous races section rules were largely written as afterthoughts since they were optional 'monstrous races'

In general, I don’t give the “Kobolds are supposed to be cowardly” argument much weight, because not only does Volo’s Guide say that it’s only a largely incorrect stereotype about them, but player characters are supposed to be exceptional, so even if kobolds were cowardly by nature, PC kobolds shouldn’t be pigeonholed into that style of play, nor should reflavoring be a requirement to use a character feature and not be comic relief.

I don't think they need to be cowardly and I don't like the default flavour of CGB, but I find doing a 180 on it just plain weird. Since when are they particularly brave amongst races? Since when did they roar when their dialect is described as yipping..? It's just a weird reversal of the old theming, when theming didn't need to be so built into them to begin with.

I do agree with you DorkForge on the chromatic’s immunity being too strong and the wizard need not get every single new spell, and the Gem Dragonborn is currently stronger than the other two. However, the flight ability is both limited-use and gated behind 3rd level, just like the Protector Aasimar’s flight, so I think it’s not too big a deal on its own, and only problematic in that the Gem gets more than the Chromatic and Metallic.

Level 3 restrictions are meaningless for anything but spells imo, any lower and fliers will fall out of the air from a Goblin's arrow anyway, and take a failed death save from hitting the ground. Giving a race a flight ability, when you're simultaneously giving them a hugely buffed breath weapon is going to lead to a lot of 'I fly over them and just breath down directly on top of them, so I don't get any allies' I know because I experieced the same thing with a Dragon's Breath'd familiar in one of my games.

Finally, I feel like you’re being a tad hyperbolic with your claims about the fragmentation of the game, though I agree that post-Tasha’s there has been a dramatic paradigm shift in 5e design, especially as it pertains to race, to the point that I agree with the crowd that says 5e post-TCoE is 5.5e in all but name. But to make claims about the power creep (which I agree is there, mind you) as being “horrendously steep” seems uncalled for.

There's nothing hyperbolic about this in my opinion, though I think you may have misunderstood why I said it was fragmentation. I wasn't referring to the power level, I was referring to existing races being rehashed, especially when Dragonborn already have other versions published. They don't have subraces like Elves and Dwarves to build on, and this is very clearly a rework at the perceived weakness of the PHB Dragonborn. To me that's fragmenting the game.

I'm going to play a Kobold!

Okay but which book version Kobold are you going with?

I'm going to play a Brass Dragonborn!

Okay but what book version Dragonborn are you going with?

These shouldn't be questions, the fact that they are, is fragmentation.

In general the power creep, in particular for the races, well I stand by that being steep. As a bonus action giving everyone in your party, including you, advantage prof times a day? Higher damage, more frequent use, breath weapons that you can still make an attack with?

It's pretty significant creep.

Kane0

2021-04-18, 05:59 PM

Don't forget that UA has a strong history of being overtuned and cut back after feedback rather than being too weak and buffed for release (if there is a release).

Agreed that some of this is a little too much but not beyond the overtuning that is common to UA. What irks me is that the flavor appears to be entirely mutable for Kobolds and neither of these races get ribbons, it's all straight combat stuff and nothing cool that makes you feel draconic when you're NOT in the process of torching some poor fool.

Edit: And the spells being given to some odd classes.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-18, 10:07 PM

I legitimately don't understand why people seem to have a problem with Dragonborn actually using their iconic ability more than once.

Remember, the DC save for this and the original breath weapon were Constitution. Everyone's 2nd or 3rd stat. So, you were likely looking at a DC of 12 for most character. Most monsters have at at least a decent dex, so they are going to 50% of the time take half damage.

In the original version, 2d6 at half damage is 3 damage. That is tiny. Past CR 1/4 enemies, you aren't going to see that as a legitimate option. Maybe for a bard. But get to level 6 or 7 and this is just never going to be used. That bit about it being worse than Burning Hands was 100% true, it doesn't equal Burning hand until 6th level. And I don't see a lot of mid-level wizards tossing out Burning Hands.

Even know, with it being 2d8 and then 3d8, most casters aren't going to use it except for minion clean-up, because their spells are going to be more impactful. But, now, martials will actually use it, and yes, it is a source of AOE damage for martials, and it is good... but why is that a problem? Obviously it is more powerful than it used to be, but when it was so weak, that isn't a bad thing.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-18, 10:44 PM

Even know, with it being 2d8 and then 3d8, most casters aren't going to use it except for minion clean-up, because their spells are going to be more impactful. But, now, martials will actually use it, and yes, it is a source of AOE damage for martials, and it is good... but why is that a problem? Obviously it is more powerful than it used to be, but when it was so weak, that isn't a bad thing.

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature*. There aren't mechanics involved in acting like a dragon, but a Human is going to have a much harder time of it than the Dragonborn, especially when that Dragonborn can finally use those mechanics more than once per rest.
*The other potential defining features are available through Xanathar's racial feats.

To be clear, disliking the fact that there are no out of combat utilities is a very valid criticism but I feel that using that argument to say that the race lacks anything to be distinct isn't.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-19, 01:14 AM

I legitimately don't understand why people seem to have a problem with Dragonborn actually using their iconic ability more than once.

They've always been able to use it more than once, being able to use it more than once per short rest, whilst also buffing damage and action economy starts to become an issue.

Remember, the DC save for this and the original breath weapon were Constitution. Everyone's 2nd or 3rd stat. So, you were likely looking at a DC of 12 for most character. Most monsters have at at least a decent dex, so they are going to 50% of the time take half damage.

Most monsters have a decent Dex? The top low level monsters that came to mind (probably influenced by LMoP and SKT) are:

Goblin- +2

Orc- +1

Orgre- -1

Out of those three (all fairly iconic D&D monsters imo) only the Goblin is hitting the 50% mark, so 3 damage half of the time (which is still half their health) on the worst example isn't bad, especially when that's 3 aoe damage, and you'd be unlucky for them all to succeed. Then that's with a +2 Con, if not only is +3 certainly doable at first level, it's actually what one of the Dragonborns I'm currently DMing has, coincidentally a Dragonborn. The only buff I made to his breath was to add a die to it, he's used it multiple times, only unhappy when he made the poor choice to use it on Hell Hounds assuming resistance not immunity.

In the original version, 2d6 at half damage is 3 damage. That is tiny. Past CR 1/4 enemies, you aren't going to see that as a legitimate option. Maybe for a bard. But get to level 6 or 7 and this is just never going to be used. That bit about it being worse than Burning Hands was 100% true, it doesn't equal Burning hand until 6th level. And I don't see a lot of mid-level wizards tossing out Burning Hands.

If you have a group you need to aoe, it can certainly be an option, but you're looking at the worst case you shouldn't talk only of succeeding on the save when there's plenty of times they'll also fail.

The comparison with Burning Hands is also muddied imo, this is a dedicated resource where as Burning Hands is eating a slot that could be used for something like Shield and is a leveled spell, locking you out of something like bonus action Misty Step (Breathing and Misty Stepping is also a tactic the other Dragonborn I Dm has done a couple times, a Paladin).

Even know, with it being 2d8 and then 3d8, most casters aren't going to use it except for minion clean-up, because their spells are going to be more impactful. But, now, martials will actually use it, and yes, it is a source of AOE damage for martials, and it is good... but why is that a problem? Obviously it is more powerful than it used to be, but when it was so weak, that isn't a bad thing.

If they chose spells relevant to the encounter, if they still have slots left, if they aren't saving those slots for potential future encounters or worst case yadda yadda. There's still plenty of cases where a caster might want a none spell aoe option.

I don't think anyone has argued that martials using it more is a problem, I don't think anyone has even argued that buffing a breath weapon is bad. The issue here is that it's buffed 3(4) different ways at once, all of those ways tying together to stack on each other.

The original breath weapon is not a great option a lot of the time, but when you can still attack once as normal? That's significantly better, they could have stopped there.

The issues for me are that they went overboard on the buffing and made it boring. Being more useable doesn't mean making it a no brainer, there's basically zero reason to not use all of your charges every day with this UA version, there's not real opportunity cost and that's boring, then you have the crazy creep on top of that.

Could they walk it back on release? Definitely, it's their doctrine, but we can't rely on that (look at the Hexblade) and they clearly aren't just motivated by feedback (did anyone really fight for such a heavy prof mod per day push like we've seen implemented?) and at the end of the day:

This is the version presented for evaluation, if it's overpowered it should be called out as such and not relying on asssumed nerfing.

They need to pick a buff to the breath and stick to it instead of throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall. This kind of thing would be better done with multiple versions, like they used to do with things before the big book push.

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature*. There aren't mechanics involved in acting like a dragon, but a Human is going to have a much harder time of it than the Dragonborn, especially when that Dragonborn can finally use those mechanics more than once per rest.
*The other potential defining features are available through Xanathar's racial feats.

To be clear, disliking the fact that there are no out of combat utilities is a very valid criticism but I feel that using that argument to say that the race lacks anything to be distinct isn't.

I'd like to see them have access to the intimidation skill to represent Frightening Presence maybe, ideally maybe a small ribbon use of their element. The Kobold... eh? If you called it something it else and omitted the word dragon, it wouldn't really feel draconic, all the elemental flavour and breath weapon that carries dragonborn is understandbly absent from them.

I'd have rather seen the Kobold tweaked and presented as an entirely new dragon folk personally.

quindraco

2021-04-19, 01:28 AM

Am I the only one who's a little annoyed that Warlocks don't get any of these spells? I get it for some of the more dragon-y ones, but my Fiend Bladelock would love Flame Stride. Come on, WotC, I even dipped Draconic Sorcerer (for the free Mage Armor and a few slots to use Absorb Elements/Shield with), what more do you want from me?

Warlocks get Raulothim’s Psychic Lance, a... leveled spell where on a successful save nothing at all happens. >.>

For me, what's really missing for warlocks is a draconic invocation. The really low-hanging fruit would be an invocation granting an energetic breath weapon, I think, with a charisma-based DC.

OvisCaedo

2021-04-19, 01:57 AM

The issues for me are that they went overboard on the buffing and made it boring. Being more useable doesn't mean making it a no brainer, there's basically zero reason to not use all of your charges every day with this UA version, there's not real opportunity cost and that's boring, then you have the crazy creep on top of that.

While I can agree that it's generally bad protocol to buff a whole bunch of aspects at once, even if the starting item in question is bad, statements like the bolded one just... baffle me. It's a resource, of course you're going to want to use all of it if appropriate situations arise. The only reason you wouldn't is if the action was so bad it wasn't even worth taking. The point of decision is "is THIS circumstance where I want to use it, or should I save the resource for a potential better opening that might come up later?". Maybe it's not pressing enough in five minute adventure days, but then EVERY long rest resource becomes absurd. Generally much more so than a couple of decent AOE attacks sprinkled in by the martial! But for anything longer, I don't think proficiency bonus times a day is really all that high of a number of uses to cause problems.

You might be right overall about the buffs being too much on top of giving them third level features, but "players will want to actually use their racial feature" is... not much of a criticism or design flaw. Especially when the third level features are all single-use per day themselves; dragonbreath BETTER be something they want to use as much as possible, it's the majority of what the race even gives them. (especially since circumstances where the resistance are relevant are also more likely to be circumstances where the breath is resisted)

Dork_Forge

2021-04-19, 02:33 AM

While I can agree that it's generally bad protocol to buff a whole bunch of aspects at once, even if the starting item in question is bad, statements like the bolded one just... baffle me. It's a resource, of course you're going to want to use all of it if appropriate situations arise. The only reason you wouldn't is if the action was so bad it wasn't even worth taking. The point of decision is "is THIS circumstance where I want to use it, or should I save the resource for a potential better opening that might come up later?". Maybe it's not pressing enough in five minute adventure days, but then EVERY long rest resource becomes absurd. Generally much more so than a couple of decent AOE attacks sprinkled in by the martial! But for anything longer, I don't think proficiency bonus times a day is really all that high of a number of uses to cause problems.

Maybe I can word it better but you're basically hitting it on the head, when the action economy cost becomes so cheap, it becomes a question of, well why wouldn't I? Friendly fire isn't a huge concern ime if you go into encounters thinking you'll want to aoe at some point, so it's mostly the opportunity cost holding you back. That's my issue, it isn't an opportunity cost apart from 'well I might want to heavily use this later' and at the crux of it, that's boring to me.

Separately from that issue, prof mod per day isn't just realistically more uses (I'd guess it works out to be more uses for a lot of people from 5 onwards), it's that you can bunch those uses up to nova. There's a Dragonborn Figher (Level 7) in one of my games, I can guarantee if I do allow this, I'll see something along the lines of: attack, breath, action surge, attack, breath on a semi regular basis. Not only do I not particularly want nova spam friendly dragon's breath in my games, it doesn't even make sense, actual dragons can't breath at will, it's a recharge ability, I feel SR recharge suits that better.

You might be right overall about the buffs being too much on top of giving them third level features, but "players will want to actually use their racial feature" is... not much of a criticism or design flaw. Especially when the third level features are all single-use per day themselves; dragonbreath BETTER be something they want to use as much as possible, it's the majority of what the race even gives them. (especially since circumstances where the resistance are relevant are also more likely to be circumstances where the breath is resisted)

I think I articulated my argument a bit better than 'players will actually want to use their racial feature' but please let me know if I've been unclear or muddled at any point.

They are once per day features, that doesn't amount to much since they're going to be used in nova type situations for the most part, I mean as written I don't see why a Metallic martial wouldn't double breath in a turn and I don't see why Gem's wouldn't regularly just breath from above to minimise friendly fire angles. That all strikes me as a whole bunch of nope when I don't get why they have those abilities to begin with, I mean Dragonborn already get resistance did they need another ability alongside a buffed breath weapon? Did they need another combat ability period?

Then there's the problem of Gem dragonborn just being straight better than the others. Better damage types, more abilities, a minute of flight vs more limited scope other 3rd level abilties...

Oh and you can go for full versatile stats built in, with a mixture of distribution options.

It's a mess, pick one (or two more minor) buffs to dragon's breath, and give them something flavourful rather than stripping flavour away (all breath weapons function the same in this UA).

Amnestic

2021-04-19, 02:58 AM

Warlocks get Raulothim’s Psychic Lance, a... leveled spell where on a successful save nothing at all happens. >.>

For me, what's really missing for warlocks is a draconic invocation. The really low-hanging fruit would be an invocation granting an energetic breath weapon, I think, with a charisma-based DC.

Casually drops my Dragon Patron (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Y0AiEGNn_a1v), based on the dragonfire adept from 3.5, including some invocations.

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature*. There aren't mechanics involved in acting like a dragon, but a Human is going to have a much harder time of it than the Dragonborn, especially when that Dragonborn can finally use those mechanics more than once per rest.
*The other potential defining features are available through Xanathar's racial feats.

To be clear, disliking the fact that there are no out of combat utilities is a very valid criticism but I feel that using that argument to say that the race lacks anything to be distinct isn't.

I agree. I didn't see any criticism about the original dragonborn not feeling 'draconic', just that it was weak. These new versions are more 'draconic' since they're leaning into the chrom/metal split more. To me it almost feels like looking for something to complain about them.

Yeah, a ribbon about a hoard or something might not go amiss, it's a ribbon after all, but it's hardly necessary.

quindraco

2021-04-19, 03:10 AM

Casually drops my Dragon Patron (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Y0AiEGNn_a1v), based on the dragonfire adept from 3.5, including some invocations.

I agree. I didn't see any criticism about the original dragonborn not feeling 'draconic', just that it was weak. These new versions are more 'draconic' since they're leaning into the chrom/metal split more. To me it almost feels like looking for something to complain about them.

Yeah, a ribbon about a hoard or something might not go amiss, it's a ribbon after all, but it's hardly necessary.

That sickening breath is ridiculous. Why isn't it 1 minute of Poisoned?

That first invocation is also a doozy. Geas at will, with a murder-rider? Are there currently any invocations with a 5th level spell at will?

Amnestic

2021-04-19, 03:42 AM

That sickening breath is ridiculous. Why isn't it 1 minute of Poisoned?

That first invocation is also a doozy. Geas at will, with a murder-rider? Are there currently any invocations with a 5th level spell at will?

'cos I thought poisoned was simultaneously stronger (up front effect for disadvantage immediately, rather than requiring 3x failed saves) and too weak (commonly immune). The limitations (level, uses, multiple saving throws) means I don't think it's an issue to stack exhaustion. If a late game enemy fails 5x consecutive dex saving throws, chances are you were going to win the fight anyway.

As for the geas, I forgot the 1/LR thing mostly.

Kane0

2021-04-19, 05:23 AM

Yeah, a ribbon about a hoard or something might not go amiss, it's a ribbon after all, but it's hardly necessary.

*Toots own horn*
One page back, in the spoilers.

diplomancer

2021-04-19, 06:00 AM

Maybe I can word it better but you're basically hitting it on the head, when the action economy cost becomes so cheap, it becomes a question of, well why wouldn't I? Friendly fire isn't a huge concern ime if you go into encounters thinking you'll want to aoe at some point, so it's mostly the opportunity cost holding you back. That's my issue, it isn't an opportunity cost apart from 'well I might want to heavily use this later' and at the crux of it, that's boring to me.

Separately from that issue, prof mod per day isn't just realistically more uses (I'd guess it works out to be more uses for a lot of people from 5 onwards), it's that you can bunch those uses up to nova. There's a Dragonborn Figher (Level 7) in one of my games, I can guarantee if I do allow this, I'll see something along the lines of: attack, breath, action surge, attack, breath on a semi regular basis. Not only do I not particularly want nova spam friendly dragon's breath in my games, it doesn't even make sense, actual dragons can't breath at will, it's a recharge ability, I feel SR recharge suits that better.

I agree you have a point, but SR recharge is also not the best solution, I believe. Just have it a proficiency/LR maximum AND a recharge mechanism like dragons (recharge on 5-6, once per round). This way you will be able to use it in many fights, sometimes more than once, but you are not using it as a Nova.

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-19, 09:55 AM

I finally got a chance to review this UA. Lots to like.
1. Metallic Dragons upgarde: better.
But this is OP; incapacitated is quite a tough condition.

• Each creature in the area must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become incapacitated until the start of your next turn.
I am otherwise replacing the dragon born thing for the two Gold Dragon Born in the game I DM (they are level 6) with the features in this UA. I like the shove/knocked prone, although why it isn't 10' versus 15 or 5 is unclear to me.

2. Raulothim's Psychic Lance
I am taking it. Not sure if the "incapacitated until start of next turn" is a bit too strong of a rider, but I like it as a player.

3. Summone Draconic Spirit:
Material component is "an art object from a dragon’s hoard, worth at least 500 gp"

Really? I guess gating it behind this allows a DM to restrict access to the spell?
I don't care for it, but it doesn't come on line before level 9 so there are ways to figure this out as a PC: quest item, eh? While I like the thematic part of that, as a practical matter in AL play how do you get such an art object?
(Oh, I forgot, pay money, get a certificate, yeah, that's the ticket! /s)

But I do like the summoned dragon.

4. Gem Dragons: I like it, generally, as it's a reach back to AD&D 2e, but with no Gem Dragons in the MM now, uh, what?

5. Kobolds. I'll need to read that again, not a fan of kobolds as player race but I understand that they have been a popular choice for many years.

P. G. Macer

2021-04-19, 12:38 PM

4. Gem Dragons: I like it, generally, as it's a reach back to AD&D 2e, but with no Gem Dragons in the MM now, uh, what?

5. Kobolds. I'll need to read that again, not a fan of kobolds as player race but I understand that they have been a popular choice for many years.

If I were a gambler, I’d be betting significant money that we’re getting a full or near-full set of gem dragon statblocks in the widely-speculated upcoming dragon book. We already got the Adult Sapphire Dragon with the Sapphire Anniversary Dice Set (if you understandably don’t want to drop several hundred dollars on it, it’s also available on D&D Beyond for a few dollars that go to Extra Life).

As I have stated a few times, my (admittedly anecdotal) impression is that the idea of playing a Kobold is popular amongst players, but the Sunlight Sensitivity, flavor of Grovel, Cower, and Beg, and formerly the –2 STR turned many people off. The new version is likely being made to appeal to those people.

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-19, 12:42 PM

As I have stated a few times, my (admittedly anecdotal) impression is that the idea of playing a Kobold is popular amongst players, but the Sunlight Sensitivity, flavor of Grovel, Cower, and Beg, and formerly the –2 STR turned many people off. The new version is likely being made to appeal to those people.
I like it well enough, except 1d4 for the tail strike, not 1d6. Tabaxi, medium critter, only get 1d4 for their claws, so a small critter ought not be getting a 1d6 bludgeoning strike

I will put that in the feedback when the survey comes up.

MaxWilson

2021-04-19, 01:41 PM

Luccan

2021-04-19, 01:43 PM

I like it well enough, except 1d4 for the tail strike, not 1d6. Tabaxi, medium critter, only get 1d4 for their claws, so a small critter ought not be getting a 1d6 bludgeoning strike

I will put that in the feedback when the survey comes up.

Could this be because 1d4 bludgeoning is already what fists do? I'm not updated on errata for the core books, but didn't they change it so everyone does a d4 as default? At least d4 Tabaxi claws provide a different damage typing, the tail slap is just redundant without the damage boost

MaxWilson

2021-04-19, 01:52 PM

Could this be because 1d4 bludgeoning is already what fists do? I'm not updated on errata for the core books, but didn't they change it so everyone does a d4 as default?

No, fists do 1 + STR.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-19, 10:17 PM

They've always been able to use it more than once, being able to use it more than once per short rest, whilst also buffing damage and action economy starts to become an issue.

Sure, you could use it more than once per day, if you were willing to devote your entire action to it. But in practice a situation where it was worthwhile might come up once, maybe twice. And after 5th level... rarely at all.

Most monsters have a decent Dex? The top low level monsters that came to mind (probably influenced by LMoP and SKT) are:

Goblin- +2

Orc- +1

Orgre- -1

Out of those three (all fairly iconic D&D monsters imo) only the Goblin is hitting the 50% mark, so 3 damage half of the time (which is still half their health) on the worst example isn't bad, especially when that's 3 aoe damage, and you'd be unlucky for them all to succeed. Then that's with a +2 Con, if not only is +3 certainly doable at first level, it's actually what one of the Dragonborns I'm currently DMing has, coincidentally a Dragonborn. The only buff I made to his breath was to add a die to it, he's used it multiple times, only unhappy when he made the poor choice to use it on Hell Hounds assuming resistance not immunity.

Bugbears have +2
Quite a few fiends like Chain devils and the like have +2 or higher
Snakes have +2
Dire Wolf is +2
Drow are +2 or higher
Giant Spiders have +3
Gnolls are +1 or higher for gnoll leaders
Bandits are +1
Guards are +1
Ghouls are +2
Hobgoblins +1
Kobolds +2
Owlbear +1
Yuan-Ti +2

It is... fairly easy to find monsters with +1 or +2 Dex. And what about the big things. What about at 11th level when you are fighting Giants, Dragons, powerful fiends, powerful undead? Is 10 damage really worth your entire action?

Because remember, a lot of racial abilities are equally useful late game as early game, and this one most certainly was not.

If you have a group you need to aoe, it can certainly be an option, but you're looking at the worst case you shouldn't talk only of succeeding on the save when there's plenty of times they'll also fail.

The comparison with Burning Hands is also muddied imo, this is a dedicated resource where as Burning Hands is eating a slot that could be used for something like Shield and is a leveled spell, locking you out of something like bonus action Misty Step (Breathing and Misty Stepping is also a tactic the other Dragonborn I Dm has done a couple times, a Paladin).

If you are fighting a horde of small enough creatures that is worthwhile, and you have misty step, you can spend two major resources for... minor damage.

Maybe for a paladin who would rather injury three or four creatures instead of killing two, it could be useful, or if you are really fighting some low CR critters while at mid levels you might be able to kill them, but then why bother with the Misty Step, and if the goal is to clear them out, a 2nd level Burning hands is 4d6, much more guaranteed, and based off a spellcasting DC. And you were going to use a 2nd level slot to misty step anyways, but you might not need misty step if you actually killed all the monsters.

If they chose spells relevant to the encounter, if they still have slots left, if they aren't saving those slots for potential future encounters or worst case yadda yadda. There's still plenty of cases where a caster might want a none spell aoe option.

If it is literally the last possible option that they only use when tapped out... it isn't an iconic part of the race you want to define your character. The problem was that the use of Dragonborn's breath weapon was often procceeded by "well, I have nothing better to do, so I might as well..."

I don't think anyone has argued that martials using it more is a problem, I don't think anyone has even argued that buffing a breath weapon is bad. The issue here is that it's buffed 3(4) different ways at once, all of those ways tying together to stack on each other.

The original breath weapon is not a great option a lot of the time, but when you can still attack once as normal? That's significantly better, they could have stopped there.

The issues for me are that they went overboard on the buffing and made it boring. Being more useable doesn't mean making it a no brainer, there's basically zero reason to not use all of your charges every day with this UA version, there's not real opportunity cost and that's boring, then you have the crazy creep on top of that.

Could they walk it back on release? Definitely, it's their doctrine, but we can't rely on that (look at the Hexblade) and they clearly aren't just motivated by feedback (did anyone really fight for such a heavy prof mod per day push like we've seen implemented?) and at the end of the day:

This is the version presented for evaluation, if it's overpowered it should be called out as such and not relying on asssumed nerfing.

They need to pick a buff to the breath and stick to it instead of throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall. This kind of thing would be better done with multiple versions, like they used to do with things before the big book push.

See, the issue is that this should be useful for spellcasters and martial characters. Martial Characters needed to be able to use it and attack. Spellcasters needed the damage buff. They are moving away from once per short rest and towards prof per long rest, due perhaps to the changing gameplay style of people not having two short rests per adventuring day with 6 to 8 encounters.

So, this isn't just them throwing spaghetti at the wall, this was making sure that the breath weapon was iconic and useful for all of the classes. I'm sorry you find using something to be a no brainer. So is using your high elf cantrip, or having poison resistance as a dwarf, or using the Goliath's stone Endurance. There are a lot of racial abilities that are "no-brainers" I don't see how this being actually useful suddenly is a bad thing.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-20, 12:37 AM

Sure, you could use it more than once per day, if you were willing to devote your entire action to it. But in practice a situation where it was worthwhile might come up once, maybe twice. And after 5th level... rarely at all.

That's entirely table dependent, if a DM favours hordes, if a particular damage type becomes valuable yadda yadda.

They always could use it more than once, that was the point, not whether it was universally useful.

Bugbears have +2
Quite a few fiends like Chain devils and the like have +2 or higher
Snakes have +2
Dire Wolf is +2
Drow are +2 or higher
Giant Spiders have +3
Gnolls are +1 or higher for gnoll leaders
Bandits are +1
Guards are +1
Ghouls are +2
Hobgoblins +1
Kobolds +2
Owlbear +1
Yuan-Ti +2

It is... fairly easy to find monsters with +1 or +2 Dex. And what about the big things. What about at 11th level when you are fighting Giants, Dragons, powerful fiends, powerful undead? Is 10 damage really worth your entire action?

So you've spent some time and made a list of 14 creatures, of those 14 creatures 5 have a +1 and would still fail more often then they'd succeed. And you went looking for these creatures specifically. So maybe we have differing ideas what a 'decent Dex' is, because a +1 to a save isn't decent in anyway.

So, your original claim was 'most monsters have a decent Dex, so they're going to save half the time' given the DC of 12 you're looking for a Dex of +2. You went looking for mosnters with positive Dex and came back with a list over a third of which was below that bonus. So do most monsters havea +2 dex? I genuinely don't know, but I'd hazard a guess that a substantial amount that do, are kinda irrelvant, see:

-Chain Devils are CR 8, why on earth would you be fighting them before 5th level? So realistically the DC goes up to at least 13... And regardless it's a Fiend, full of Fiendish resistances and immunities. Depending on your element you might be happy to get damage out at all.

You can't grab higher level creatures and hold them to a mediocre tier 1 DC, when they likely wouldn't ever be used at those levels.

For the rest of your argument, it's an AOE, if you're using it period, it's because the damage type is relevant. Why on ea

Because remember, a lot of racial abilities are equally useful late game as early game, and this one most certainly was not.

It's an AOE, by it's very nature it depends on the game, if higher level means more single big enemies then it drops off in value sharply, nature of the beast.

If you are fighting a horde of small enough creatures that is worthwhile, and you have misty step, you can spend two major resources for... minor damage.

Did you think I was implying Misty Step was used to aid in damage in some way? He Misty Stepped away to avoid getting creamed after he got some damage in. Two major resources for minor damage is very misleading.

Maybe for a paladin who would rather injury three or four creatures instead of killing two, it could be useful, or if you are really fighting some low CR critters while at mid levels you might be able to kill them, but then why bother with the Misty Step, and if the goal is to clear them out, a 2nd level Burning hands is 4d6, much more guaranteed, and based off a spellcasting DC. And you were going to use a 2nd level slot to misty step anyways, but you might not need misty step if you actually killed all the monsters.

What Paladins get Burning Hands?

You don't need to kill creatures for damage to be useful, it's a team game and softening up enemies for the others to kill is a great tactic. Or mopping up after others, after all nobody said you had to use this ability against healthy creatures.

Then there's times where you can't reach creatures but still want to do something...

If it is literally the last possible option that they only use when tapped out... it isn't an iconic part of the race you want to define your character. The problem was that the use of Dragonborn's breath weapon was often procceeded by "well, I have nothing better to do, so I might as well..."

Something doesn't have to be useful to be iconic, a race ability will always fall behind class abilities to some, if not most degrees. If it didn't it would overshadow them.

My experience and opinion of the current breath isn't it's only useful when tapped out (though that is a valid situation as well), but I never argued that it shouldn't be buffed in someway. It should be buffed, but three ways to Sunday ain't it.

See, the issue is that this should be useful for spellcasters and martial characters. Martial Characters needed to be able to use it and attack. Spellcasters needed the damage buff. They are moving away from once per short rest and towards prof per long rest, due perhaps to the changing gameplay style of people not having two short rests per adventuring day with 6 to 8 encounters.

...why should it be equally useful for all characters? Heck a whole heap of abilties available to races now don't hit that category and they aren't bad abilities.

Everyone can derive some use out of it and that's the important part, but there's also the problems this opens up:

Now a Gem Dragonborn Bladesinger at 6th level and above can use a 3d8 force based aoe and throw a cantrip in the same turn. That's not okay, these buffs don't exist in a vacuum they need to play with the game as it stands.

So, this isn't just them throwing spaghetti at the wall, this was making sure that the breath weapon was iconic and useful for all of the classes. I'm sorry you find using something to be a no brainer. So is using your high elf cantrip, or having poison resistance as a dwarf, or using the Goliath's stone Endurance. There are a lot of racial abilities that are "no-brainers" I don't see how this being actually useful suddenly is a bad thing.

Do you really believe that they need prof uses per day for that to be the case? What would be wrong with the action economy and die changes alone? You still want to use it, you still get to use it multiple times a day, you just don't get to nova spam it anymore. Please don't say all three of these things is necessary to make the breath weapon worth while.

Your comparison are also missing the point massively:

-High Elf, if you're using your cantrip you aren't using your action for something else.

-Dwarf, I don't even know why you'd bring a resistance up, especially when the Dragonborn have one as well, it's entirely irrelevant since it just isn't up to the player if this actually gets used.

-Goliath, if you use Stone's Endurance then you don't have your reaction to Shield, or Uncanny, or OA, or Sentinel etc. etc.

When something is both so good that you want to use it, so prevalent that you can do it relatively frequently, and has action economy so cheap that you can still do your normal stuff to some degree on top, that's boring.

Maybe an example will help, Warlock dips are popular for a great number of reasons depending on the build. Since XGTE one thing that has constantly infuriated me is something that goes like this:

'You may as well be a Hexblade'

Even if it has absolutely no bearing or relevancy to the build, you may as well since the abilties are good and you can just Cha a weapon.

And then you see that build after build. It's boring and detracts from the other options.

Breathing as a Dragonborn can be epic, when it's your defacto move a few times a day the tough fight of the day, it just becomes routine. In this case, unbalanced and un-needed routine.

Hael

2021-04-20, 03:29 AM

Dork_Forge

2021-04-20, 03:48 AM

I’m not really seeing the scaling breath weapon as that big a problem. It’s got nice action economy, but it’s the premiere feature of the race and given that we have variant humans, Yuan Ti, half elves and Sartyrs setting a very high bar, and upcoming races like faeries, I don’t see the race as written as that out of line.

The immunity is a bigger issue and parts of the second breath weapon are IMO more problematic. Being able to swim in lava for a lvl1 character is way too strong, and somewhat lazy design IMO.

Pointing to notably powerful races doesn't make this better imo, unless all races are going to be overhauled to be more 'in line' it's just pushing the creep higher.

Since my opinion seems to be in the vocal minority on the extent of the buff I thought I'd go take a look at a module example of the difference, so I pulled up LMoP on Roll20.

Having two uses of a 2d8 breath weapon trivialises Cragmaw hideout, and has a meaningfully high impact on Redbrand, and Thundertree and well pretty much all of it tbh. Enemies are clustered together frequently enough that increasing the amount of AOE you can bring to bear (especially at lower levels) has a dramatic shift.

Could you blame it on the module? Maybe, but i know multiple Candlekeep books are the same way with enemies, and at the end of the day it's the original starter set. Lots of people play it, and will keep playing it (especially after it was given out for free during the Pandemic).

To be honest, looking at the version presented, I can't really think of any races that impactful at lower levels unless they grant flight.

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-20, 04:29 AM

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature.

I think the issue is that Breath Weapons aren't unique to dragons. Not even close.

You breath fire? Well I guess that makes you more like a dragon. Or a hell hound. Or, you know, any of a dozen other creatures with similar abilities. And when you add magic into the equation it muddies the waters even more. :smalltongue:

ATHATH

2021-04-20, 04:29 AM

Being able to swim in lava for a lvl1 character is way too strong, and somewhat lazy design IMO.
Doesn't that ability only come online at level 3?

Personally, I find the 10 minute energy immunity ability interesting and fine, and could possibly be bumped up to being usable once or twice per short rest. Remember that the energy immunity provided by the ability must be the same energy type that your breath weapon uses, and many creatures are immune to the energy types that they attack with. Thus, in many of the combats where you're getting full mileage out of your energy immunity (which can be relatively rare unless you're in a campaign that's themed around undead or elementals or something), you won't be getting full mileage out of your breath weapon.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-20, 04:54 AM

I think the issue is that Breath Weapons aren't unique to dragons. Not even close.

You breath fire? Well I guess that makes you more like a dragon. Or a hell hound. Or, you know, any of a dozen other creatures with similar abilities. And when you add magic into the equation it muddies the waters even more. :smalltongue:

If you didn't also share their defining physical characteristics (in regards to this UA, chromatic or metallic scales) I might agree, but with all context at hand it's a massive indication of their draconic heritage.

I'm sure you would agree as well that if asked "what type of creature is feared for it's ability to breath deadly elemental attacks" the first and likely immediate thought is "dragon" and not, say, "winter wolf". Sharing those abilities with other creatures didn't exclude it from being a defining feature, especially when the source you're drawing from is the most identifiable one

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-20, 09:04 AM

If you didn't also share their defining physical characteristics (in regards to this UA, chromatic or metallic scales) I might agree, but with all context at hand it's a massive indication of their draconic heritage.

I get what you mean, yet at the same time they just don't feel very dragon-y to me.

It seems like many of the pieces are there (though I'll point out that, aesthetically, without wings they're just colourful lizardfolk) but they're just not coming together in my mind.

I'm sure you would agree as well that if asked "what type of creature is feared for it's ability to breath deadly elemental attacks"

But this is kind of the problem - dragons are indeed known for their devastating breath weapons. But the Dragonborn's breath weapon is... kinda unimpressive. The area is minute and the damage is barely better than that of a Cantrip. It feels less 'draconic breath-weapon' and more 'draconic halitosis'. :smallwink:

Ans yes, I know that a 60ft cone of fire dealing 10d10 damage or whatever would be stupidly overpowered as a racial feature. But at the same time, when you're trying to emulate the most infamous ability of massive, awe-inspiring dragons, I'm not sure Baby's First Breath Weapon is the best way to go about it. :smalltongue:

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-20, 09:28 AM

I get what you mean, yet at the same time they just don't feel very dragon-y to me.

It seems like many of the pieces are there (though I'll point out that, aesthetically, without wings they're just colourful lizardfolk) but they're just not coming together in my mind.

Half dragons and most kobold don't have wings either, and unless I'm mistaken both have closer ties to true dragons that even dragonborn do. Are they also sorely lacking in the "dragon-y" feel? Is it really just because of a lack of wings?

But this is kind of the problem - dragons are indeed known for their devastating breath weapons. But the Dragonborn's breath weapon is... kinda unimpressive. The area is minute and the damage is barely better than that of a Cantrip. It feels less 'draconic breath-weapon' and more 'draconic halitosis'. :smallwink:

Ans yes, I know that a 60ft cone of fire dealing 10d10 damage or whatever would be stupidly overpowered as a racial feature. But at the same time, when you're trying to emulate the most infamous ability of massive, awe-inspiring dragons, I'm not sure Baby's First Breath Weapon is the best way to go about it. :smalltongue:

It's roughly equal to the actual spell Dragon's Breath, actually dealing more damage on average past level 5. It's definitely more potent than a cantrip, AoE cantrips deal less than half the damage in a worse area.

For PHB Dragonborn I could entirely agree with your criticisms here, but this new breath attack is a significant improvement and is much more usable, you're actually able to "be dragon-y" while you're also doing your class related things. The mechanical strength could use more tuning I'm sure but the defining features are present.

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-20, 09:39 AM

Could this be because 1d4 bludgeoning is already what fists do? I'm not updated on errata for the core books, but didn't they change it so everyone does a d4 as default? At least d4 Tabaxi claws provide a different damage typing, the tail slap is just redundant without the damage boost
Fists do 1+STR bonus (oh, Max ninja'd me) and I just had another idea:
Drop the immunity to a minute, rather than ten. I'll put that in the feedback.

PhantomSoul

2021-04-20, 10:12 AM

It's roughly equal to the actual spell Dragon's Breath, actually dealing more damage on average past level 5. It's definitely more potent than a cantrip, AoE cantrips deal less than half the damage in a worse area.

And cantrips (barring special features) deal no damage on a successful save normally; the Breath Weapon still does half damage on a success.

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-20, 10:22 AM

Half dragons and most kobold don't have wings either, and unless I'm mistaken both have closer ties to true dragons that even dragonborn do. Are they also sorely lacking in the "dragon-y" feel? Is it really just because of a lack of wings?

I didn't say they didn't feel dragon-y solely because of a lack of wings. I just thought that the lack of wings was noteworthy.

As to your questions on half-dragons and kobolds, do half-dragons even exist as a player race? Looking at the MM entry, it's certainly not the most thrilling of templates. Though I suppose if you have no issue with half-dragons I can certainly see why you'd also give Dragonborn a pass.

As for kobolds, I thought their ties to dragons were the most distant, compared with other dragon-themed races? Certainly dragons are important to their culture but I never thought of kobolds as embodying dragons in the way I'd expect stuff like half-dragons and dragonborn to. To put it another way, I wouldn't play a kobold because I wanted to play a character that's as close as possible to playing an actual dragon. I'd play a kobold because I wanted to play a silly, little, dog-lizard thing. :smallwink:

Mechanically, I certainly don't like the Kobold race in this UA. Resistance to being Frightened? Bit weird but whatever. Sorcerer cantrip? Perfectly in-theme . . . except why can you use Int or Wis for it? The whole point is that it's meant to be sorcerous legacy, so surely it should be linked to Charisma? Tail attack? What. Since when has this ever been a thing for Kobolds? I don't think this was a thing even with the wealth of feats and options in 3.5. Dragonic Roar? No. Just no. This absolutely does not belong on a small race best known for yipping like dogs.

The Volo's Kobold isn't without its issues but at least it feels like I'd be playing an actual Kobold.

It's roughly equal to the actual spell Dragon's Breath

Okay but that in no way changes the point I was making. :smallconfused:

It's definitely more potent than a cantrip, AoE cantrips deal less than half the damage in a worse area.

I wasn't trying to say that it was worse than a cantrip. My point was that if you're evoking a breath weapon best known for being powerful and devastating, you're inevitably going to lose that feeling when you try to shrink it down in order to balance it.

For PHB Dragonborn I could entirely agree with your criticisms here, but this new breath attack is a significant improvement and is much more usable, you're actually able to "be dragon-y" while you're also doing your class related things. The mechanical strength could use more tuning I'm sure but the defining features are present.

*shrugs*

All I can say is that despite this much-lauded power-boost, I'm still left with no interest in ever playing a dragonborn.

P. G. Macer

2021-04-20, 12:03 PM

As for kobolds, I thought their ties to dragons were the most distant, compared with other dragon-themed races? Certainly dragons are important to their culture but I never thought of kobolds as embodying dragons in the way I'd expect stuff like half-dragons and dragonborn to. To put it another way, I wouldn't play a kobold because I wanted to play a character that's as close as possible to playing an actual dragon. I'd play a kobold because I wanted to play a silly, little, dog-lizard thing. :smallwink:

Mechanically, I certainly don't like the Kobold race in this UA. Resistance to being Frightened? Bit weird but whatever. Sorcerer cantrip? Perfectly in-theme . . . except why can you use Int or Wis for it? The whole point is that it's meant to be sorcerous legacy, so surely it should be linked to Charisma? Tail attack? What. Since when has this ever been a thing for Kobolds? I don't think this was a thing even with the wealth of feats and options in 3.5. Dragonic Roar? No. Just no. This absolutely does not belong on a small race best known for yipping like dogs.

The Volo's Kobold isn't without its issues but at least it feels like I'd be playing an actual Kobold.

The Kobold’s sorcerer cantrip can be any of INT/WIS/CHA because that is the new standard, as seen with the Hexblood, Fairy, and Owlfolk. I’m certain that the Tasha’s racial shift is to blame for that as a whole :smallannoyed:.

I think someone mentioned either on Reddit or earlier on this thread that the advantage-against-fear feature is to mimic the Kobold Dragonshield monster stat block from Volo’s Guide, though there’s a lack of synergy given that you have to use the version of the race that doesn’t have Pack Tactics and Sunlight Sensitivity in order to have that feature.

The tail attack is pretty “What in the Nine Hells were they thinking?”, I’ll agree, and it’s so inferior to the other options presented for the UA kobold, too. WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-20, 12:21 PM

Okay but that in no way changes the point I was making. :smallconfused:

Then what is your point? Your comparing the range and damage of a huge+ creature to a medium one, it would be pretty absurd if your breath attack was on par with that.

How about a size appropriate comparison, if you look at the breath attack of a Wyrmling (medium sized true dragon) it compares very closely.

I will fully concede though that if the breath weapon doesn't sell you, you're probably not going to find much to like with Dragonborn because it's most of what they get, and it's absolutely all they get in the PHB version.

PhantomSoul

2021-04-20, 12:42 PM

The Kobold’s sorcerer cantrip can be any of INT/WIS/CHA because that is the new standard, as seen with the Hexblood, Fairy, and Owlfolk. I’m certain that the Tasha’s racial shift is to blame for that as a whole :smallannoyed:.

I think there's one "f" too many in that last sentence... (God Tasha's & WOTC are a mess.)

The tail attack is pretty “What in the Nine Hells were they thinking?”, I’ll agree, and it’s so inferior to the other options presented for the UA kobold, too. WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

Agreed, especially with it being a weird decision.

MaxWilson

2021-04-20, 12:56 PM

WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

Yes, I wonder what kind of thought process leads to that. Natural weapons are useful in some cases, such as while grappling or while captured and disarmed, but clearly Kobolds aren't going to be doing much grappling (too Small) and even if captured, how difficult is it really supposed to be to improvise a club (1d6+Str, just like a Kobold's tail)?

I don't really like draconic kobolds anyway. In the back of my mind, kobolds will always be more doglike than dragon-like despite subsequent retcons.

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-20, 01:23 PM

The Kobold’s sorcerer cantrip can be any of INT/WIS/CHA because that is the new standard, as seen with the Hexblood, Fairy, and Owlfolk. I’m certain that the Tasha’s racial shift is to blame for that as a whole :smallannoyed:

I'm sure you're right. Really not a fan as it seems to remove any thematic connection.

I think someone mentioned either on Reddit or earlier on this thread that the advantage-against-fear feature is to mimic the Kobold Dragonshield monster stat block from Volo’s Guide, though there’s a lack of synergy given that you have to use the version of the race that doesn’t have Pack Tactics and Sunlight Sensitivity in order to have that feature.

Yeah, that's why I'm willing to give that ability a pass.

The tail attack is pretty “What in the Nine Hells were they thinking?”, I’ll agree, and it’s so inferior to the other options presented for the UA kobold, too. WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

Yes, I wonder what kind of thought process leads to that. Natural weapons are useful in some cases, such as while grappling or while captured and disarmed, but clearly Kobolds aren't going to be doing much grappling (too Small) and even if captured, how difficult is it really supposed to be to improvise a club (1d6+Str, just like a Kobold's tail)?

Regarding natural weapons, I find it especially irritating that you're not allowed to use dexterity with them - especially for races like tabaxi and kobolds that clearly favour dex over strength.

PhantomSoul

2021-04-20, 01:30 PM

Regarding natural weapons, I find it especially irritating that you're not allowed to use dexterity with them - especially for races like tabaxi and kobolds that clearly favour dex over strength.

Don't worry, now with Tasha's (where actually allowed) Kobolds can be strong like a Goliath or a Half-Orc! How dare they be encouraged or forced to favour Dex!

quindraco

2021-04-20, 01:39 PM

I get what you mean, yet at the same time they just don't feel very dragon-y to me.

It seems like many of the pieces are there (though I'll point out that, aesthetically, without wings they're just colourful lizardfolk) but they're just not coming together in my mind.

How draconic do you need them to be?

Here are the full stats of a white dragon wyrmling, translated into a list of PC abilities:

Racials (these violate the design model for playable races now, so in reality these would never fly): +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT.
Scales: You can calculate your base AC as 16 when unarmored, although you can add a shield to the calculation. You are immune to Cold damage.
Speed: You have a swim speed equal to your walking speed, a burrow speed equal to half that, and a fly speed equal to twice that. You cannot hover.
Senses: You have 10 feet of blindsight and 60 feet of darkvision.
Languages: Common, Draconic.
Cold Breath: As an action, you can exhale an icy blast of hail in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 8 + your consitution modifier + your proficiency bonus Constitution saving throw, taking 5d8 cold damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If you do so, roll 1d6 at the start of each of your turns; on a 5+, you regain the ability to do this. Until then, you cannot do this.
Bite: You have a natural weapon that deals 1d10 piercing + 1d4 cold damage. You are proficient with it.

Everything we know about Dragonborn suggests that they should be weaker than a wyrmling, before you add class levels.

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-20, 02:02 PM

How draconic do you need them to be?

Maybe draconic enough that they get to embody more than a single characteristic of a dragon?

As it stands, the elemental aspect (breath weapon + resistance to same element) is the only manner in which they differ from just normal humans.

Maybe you think that's enough but to me they just feel really bland. Which isn't what I want in my dragons. :smalltongue:

I mean, let's look at some common aspects of dragons that they don't have.
- Any sort of natural armour.
- Wings
- Frightful Presence
- Any draconic skills (e.g. Perception or Intimidatein lieu of the aforementioned Frightful Presence)
- Darkvision
- (minor) Blindsight
- Natural weapons (claws, bite, tail)
- Change Shape (for metallic dragons)

Now obviously I'm not saying that that Dragonborn should have all of the above but the fact that they don't have *any* means that their claim to dragonhood feels pretty tenuous.

Even a couple of ribbons (e.g. getting a natural weapon - whether claws, tail or a bite) would help, I think.

As it stands, they feel more like a dull template than a race.

MaxWilson

2021-04-20, 02:19 PM

Maybe draconic enough that they get to embody more than a single characteristic of a dragon?

As it stands, the elemental aspect (breath weapon + resistance to same element) is the only manner in which they differ from just normal humans.

Maybe you think that's enough but to me they just feel really bland. Which isn't what I want in my dragons. :smalltongue:

I mean, let's look at some common aspects of dragons that they don't have.
- Any sort of natural armour.
- Wings
- Frightful Presence
- Any draconic skills (e.g. Perception or Intimidatein lieu of the aforementioned Frightful Presence)
- Darkvision
- (minor) Blindsight
- Natural weapons (claws, bite, tail)
- Change Shape (for metallic dragons)

Now obviously I'm not saying that that Dragonborn should have all of the above but the fact that they don't have *any* means that their claim to dragonhood feels pretty tenuous.

Even a couple of ribbons (e.g. getting a natural weapon - whether claws, tail or a bite) would help, I think.

As it stands, they feel more like a dull template than a race.

Heh. You just made me realize that the Dragonborn from this UA could just as easily be related to Cyclops from the X-Men as to a dragon.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-20, 03:01 PM

Heh. You just made me realize that the Dragonborn from this UA could just as easily be related to Cyclops from the X-Men as to a dragon.

Huh a Force gem dragonborn Warlock...

EB is oyur normal blast and the breath weapon is crankin' that visor open, that's an amusing thought.

quindraco

2021-04-20, 03:31 PM

Even a couple of ribbons (e.g. getting a natural weapon - whether claws, tail or a bite) would help, I think.

As it stands, they feel more like a dull template than a race.

What's a ribbon? A mechanical feature so weak it's only there for flavor, like if they had a 1d4 bite?

Certainly in the PHB they're unforgivably bad. The UA is progress, but I 100% agree I'd have replaced the 1/long rest racials across the board with more flavorful options. As it stands they provide weird mechanical benefits only situationally thematically appropriate to the race.

As I noted when I gave you the statblock, frightful presence isn't core to being draconic - dragons aren't born with it - but you're quite right, giving them any sort of bite (even letting them bite for 1 piercing, it doesn't have to be a damage upgrade) would be very flavorful. Flight is problematic on any playable race, and dragonborn don't even have wings, but e.g. the white wyrmling at least also has claws good enough to dig and climb and a body sleek enough to swim. Climb and swim speeds are so weak in 5E you can hand out especially slow ones without any real fear of balance issues - you could just give white dragonborn a swim speed of 15 feet and it would amount to what I think you mean by a ribbon.

Same thing for the scales, really - you could give them scales as weak as you wanted, and it would still feel more thematic. Even AC 11 tortle armor would "feel" scalier than human flesh, and again, it would be ribbon-grade.

Contrast with dwarf or elf racials, both of which are chock full of content. Great example is how dwarfs are intrinsically proficient with expertise in history checks made to recall the history of a rock. That's mechanically useless, but awesome for flavor.

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-20, 04:02 PM

What's a ribbon? A mechanical feature so weak it's only there for flavor, like if they had a 1d4 bite?

That's it exactly.

Flight is problematic on any playable race, and dragonborn don't even have wings

Just a point but wings don't necessarily have to provide full flight. They could, for example, just give Dragonborn a bonus to their jumping distance or reduce the damage they'd suffer from falling.

And yeah, I know Dragonborn don't currently have wings (barring a racial feat, IIRC) but it's not like WotC haven't retconned stuff like this in the past. :smallwink:

Same thing for the scales, really - you could give them scales as weak as you wanted, and it would still feel more thematic. Even AC 11 tortle armor would "feel" scalier than human flesh, and again, it would be ribbon-grade.

Contrast with dwarf or elf racials, both of which are chock full of content. Great example is how dwarfs are intrinsically proficient with expertise in history checks made to recall the history of a rock. That's mechanically useless, but awesome for flavor.

Yeah, exactly. I think a few more minor abilities like you suggest would go a long way to making Dragonborn feel more like dragons.

quindraco

2021-04-20, 04:34 PM

Yeah, exactly. I think a few more minor abilities like you suggest would go a long way to making Dragonborn feel more like dragons.

Seems reasonably easy to come up with these in abundance. Just off the top of my head, with some of my earlier comments modified to work properly with PC classes (this is for white dragonborn, since I have the white wyrmling stat block still in my head - other colors might get different ones, if their stat blocks are resistant enough):

Bite: A dragonborn can bite, letting them perform an unarmed strike that deals piercing damage, rather than bludgeoning damage. They can also grapple with their mouth rather than their hand.
Natural Armor: You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren't wearing armor, your AC is 11 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC. A shield's benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor.
Natural Athlete: You have a swim speed and a climb speed equal to half your walking speed, and a burrow speed of half your swim speed. Round all numbers down to the next multiple of 5; for a dragonborn with a walking speed of 30, that means swim 15, climb 15, burrow 5.
Draconic Senses: You have 30 foot darkvision, and advantage on Perception checks made to see or hear anything within 5 feet of you.

The above plus Cold Resistance (nerfed Cold Immunity) and an appropriate nerfed breath attack would be the entire white wyrmling stat block, minus the flight. If you wanted to retcon in weak wings, a fly speed equal to burrow speed (without hover) actually simulates being a good glider remarkably well, since you can jump normally and just flap your wings for 5 more feet.

All of this was deliberately written to actually work with class features like a monk's, so you still feel more draconic if you pick up abilities that naturally buff such things. Hopefully I didn't make anything too powerful.

Kane0

2021-04-20, 04:55 PM

Dr. Cliché

2021-04-20, 04:59 PM

I contest that Ribbons aren't being defined as weak features but rather features that aren't strong in relation to combat. Ribbons can be things like Stonecunning and Thieves Cant which can be very useful, just not all that much in a fight.

I thought Ribbons were abilities that were flavourful but were either mechanically weak or else quite niche? :smalltongue:

e.g. proficiency in Persuasion probably doesn't have much use in combat but I certainly wouldn't describe it as a ribbon.

quindraco

2021-04-20, 05:24 PM

I contest that Ribbons aren't being defined as weak features but rather features that aren't strong in relation to combat. Ribbons can be things like Stonecunning and Thieves Cant which can be very useful, just not all that much in a fight.

Examples I had for dragonborn:
Awesome presence: Half prof bonus an any Charisma checks you aren't already proficient in
Hoardsense: You have advantage on Intelligence and Wisdom checks regarding art and jewelry
Mingler: Can cast Disguise Self once per long rest, which lasts until you attack or take damage

And the Gem dragonborn telepathy also counts already.

Gem telepathy and Mingler are insanely powerful compared to Hoardsense and Stonecunning. Awesome Presence is "don't be a bard, but definitely be a sorcerer with Dispel Magic", which, if deliberate, is quite cunning and I approve, but it's in between the stronger pair and the weaker pair, there.

I've yet to work out a useful way to use Thieves' Cant, largely because I need the other person to understand it (so I can't use it on my party members to hide info from the enemy) and somehow it's the same cant the world over so any random rogue I meet might be able to understand it, another deficit. I wish it was instead something like "you can spend 4 times as long saying something, and it's an insight check to realize what you're really saying unless you're the intended recipient" or similar. At least Druidic inflicts a Perception check to even realize what you're looking at is a language.

ATHATH

2021-04-20, 09:12 PM

Yes, I wonder what kind of thought process leads to that. Natural weapons are useful in some cases, such as while grappling or while captured and disarmed, but clearly Kobolds aren't going to be doing much grappling (too Small) and even if captured, how difficult is it really supposed to be to improvise a club (1d6+Str, just like a Kobold's tail)?

I don't really like draconic kobolds anyway. In the back of my mind, kobolds will always be more doglike than dragon-like despite subsequent retcons.
I guess they could make okay heavyweight monks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628738-Breaking-Face-A-Guide-to-Strength-Monks)?

Chaosmancer

2021-04-20, 10:00 PM

So you've spent some time and made a list of 14 creatures, of those 14 creatures 5 have a +1 and would still fail more often then they'd succeed. And you went looking for these creatures specifically. So maybe we have differing ideas what a 'decent Dex' is, because a +1 to a save isn't decent in anyway.

So, your original claim was 'most monsters have a decent Dex, so they're going to save half the time' given the DC of 12 you're looking for a Dex of +2. You went looking for mosnters with positive Dex and came back with a list over a third of which was below that bonus. So do most monsters havea +2 dex? I genuinely don't know, but I'd hazard a guess that a substantial amount that do, are kinda irrelvant, see:

+1 is still succeeding 50% of the time (11-20) And I wasnt' seeking them out specifically. I mean, sure I avoid listing giants, and you had already listed Ogres, but most everything else was +1 or +2.

And I was trying to stay below CR 10, while also not giving you monsters like Gricks and Grells that wouldn't be used as often.

-Chain Devils are CR 8, why on earth would you be fighting them before 5th level? So realistically the DC goes up to at least 13... And regardless it's a Fiend, full of Fiendish resistances and immunities. Depending on your element you might be happy to get damage out at all.

You can't grab higher level creatures and hold them to a mediocre tier 1 DC, when they likely wouldn't ever be used at those levels.

For the rest of your argument, it's an AOE, if you're using it period, it's because the damage type is relevant. Why on ea

Not sure why you cut off there.

But, okay, the Chain Devil is facing a DC 13. But here is the thing, you can't just judge this ability by "is it useful before level 5", it needs to be useful at level 14 too. Most racial abilities are generally useful. This needs to be good enough that it is going to be used in combat, not just when cleaning up goblins and kobolds.

It's an AOE, by it's very nature it depends on the game, if higher level means more single big enemies then it drops off in value sharply, nature of the beast.

Who said single big enemies? At level 11 you can still face multiple enemies. Just, instead of being a squad of orcs, you get a squad of Minotaurs, who have 76 hp. An AOE using 4d6 for 14 damage is just not quite as useful, since even as a solid blow you are dealing 18% of their health, where before you were hitting for 50% or more.

That is what I meant. Even as an AOE, the damage numbers didnt' keep up to make it worthwhile compared to taking your normal action.

Did you think I was implying Misty Step was used to aid in damage in some way? He Misty Stepped away to avoid getting creamed after he got some damage in. Two major resources for minor damage is very misleading.

Why would he get creamed? What was different about using his breath weapon if it required Misty Step to run away compared to using his normal action?

What Paladins get Burning Hands?

You don't need to kill creatures for damage to be useful, it's a team game and softening up enemies for the others to kill is a great tactic. Or mopping up after others, after all nobody said you had to use this ability against healthy creatures.

Then there's times where you can't reach creatures but still want to do something...

But while it is a team game, it is also a resource management game. If I'm using a second level spell slot to run away after I injury a bunch of enemies with another ability, isn't it better for the team if I could use a 2nd level spell to just kill the enemies instead? Can't get creamed that way.

And, if they are close enough to be finished off by a breath weapon, aren't they close enough by level 5 to be finished off with two melee attacks? Wouldn't I soften up the enemy more by using my weapon to deal 2d8+12 damage instead of 3d6?

And your last point just highlights the issue for me. "I literally can't do anything else and don't want to waste my turn." That shouldn't be what your dragon breath feels like. It shouldn't be a "I'd rather use this than waste my turn" it should be something you actively desire to use.

Something doesn't have to be useful to be iconic, a race ability will always fall behind class abilities to some, if not most degrees. If it didn't it would overshadow them.

My experience and opinion of the current breath isn't it's only useful when tapped out (though that is a valid situation as well), but I never argued that it shouldn't be buffed in someway. It should be buffed, but three ways to Sunday ain't it.

And I'm telling you that unless you want to pigeon hole it for one class or the other, it needed the buffs it got.

...why should it be equally useful for all characters? Heck a whole heap of abilties available to races now don't hit that category and they aren't bad abilities.

Everyone can derive some use out of it and that's the important part, but there's also the problems this opens up:

Now a Gem Dragonborn Bladesinger at 6th level and above can use a 3d8 force based aoe and throw a cantrip in the same turn. That's not okay, these buffs don't exist in a vacuum they need to play with the game as it stands.

Why is that not okay? What exactly might happen from them being able to do this? They are using a daily resource for about 5d8 damage. That feels pretty standard to me. Maybe a little bit high, but not ridiculous.

Do you really believe that they need prof uses per day for that to be the case? What would be wrong with the action economy and die changes alone? You still want to use it, you still get to use it multiple times a day, you just don't get to nova spam it anymore. Please don't say all three of these things is necessary to make the breath weapon worth while.

Most tables aren't doing more than 1 short rest per day, if that. A lot of them aren't doing any. So, yeah, I think that is why WoTC is shifting over to Prof per day, because a lot of short rest abilities were becoming daily abilities, and they weren't balanced that way.

Your comparison are also missing the point massively:

-High Elf, if you're using your cantrip you aren't using your action for something else. 3

Obviously. But there are plenty of times that it is no-brainer to use it. That is why you took the cantrip you took, right?

-Dwarf, I don't even know why you'd bring a resistance up, especially when the Dragonborn have one as well, it's entirely irrelevant since it just isn't up to the player if this actually gets used.

You said it was a no-brainer that gets used all the time. Every time Poison resistance comes up, it is a no-brainer. Does this critique only apply to active abilities?

-Goliath, if you use Stone's Endurance then you don't have your reaction to Shield, or Uncanny, or OA, or Sentinel etc. etc.

So... your Goliath is a Rogue/Eldritch Knight multi-class with a feat? Well, yeah, you might not get as much use out of reducing damage to yourself if you have two or three other ways to do it.

To a Barbarian who got shot with a lightning bolt though... kind of a no-brainer to reduce that damage.

When something is both so good that you want to use it, so prevalent that you can do it relatively frequently, and has action economy so cheap that you can still do your normal stuff to some degree on top, that's boring.

To you. Not to everyone else.

Maybe an example will help, Warlock dips are popular for a great number of reasons depending on the build. Since XGTE one thing that has constantly infuriated me is something that goes like this:

'You may as well be a Hexblade'

Even if it has absolutely no bearing or relevancy to the build, you may as well since the abilties are good and you can just Cha a weapon.

And then you see that build after build. It's boring and detracts from the other options.

Breathing as a Dragonborn can be epic, when it's your defacto move a few times a day the tough fight of the day, it just becomes routine. In this case, unbalanced and un-needed routine.

Here is the problem with your example.

Dragonborn aren't a subclass within the class, and Dragonbreath isn't either. Your example would be more accurate to saying that if you are playing a warlock you should take Eldritch Blast.

Which, hey, yeah, that is a bit annoying. But not because Eldritch Blast is boring, but because nothing else even comes close to eldritch blast for the warlock. HOWEVER, nothing else SHOULD come close for a Dragonborn using Dragonbreath. Like a Rogue who uses Sneak Attack, yeah, you do it all the time, and it is a no-brainer to use it when you can, but that is your thing, and taking it away and nerfing it isn't what people want.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same thing for the scales, really - you could give them scales as weak as you wanted, and it would still feel more thematic. Even AC 11 tortle armor would "feel" scalier than human flesh, and again, it would be ribbon-grade..

I could see giving them the 11+Dex ac. 99% of the time, it would be useless. But it would feel cool.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-20, 11:22 PM

+1 is still succeeding 50% of the time (11-20) And I wasnt' seeking them out specifically. I mean, sure I avoid listing giants, and you had already listed Ogres, but most everything else was +1 or +2.

And I was trying to stay below CR 10, while also not giving you monsters like Gricks and Grells that wouldn't be used as often.

That was a tired brain fart for me on the success rate.

So, in your opinion, a +1 Dex is a decent Dex score?

Not sure why you cut off there.

Honestly because I was most of the way through this reply when my PC crashed and on the second write up I just wanted to get it done.

But, okay, the Chain Devil is facing a DC 13. But here is the thing, you can't just judge this ability by "is it useful before level 5", it needs to be useful at level 14 too. Most racial abilities are generally useful. This needs to be good enough that it is going to be used in combat, not just when cleaning up goblins and kobolds.

I mean... what metric are you using for 'most racial abilities are generally useful' (at all levels)? A lot of them are only useful in specific situations, a direct opposite to what you're saying, so I'm not sure what your basis for any of this is.

Who said single big enemies? At level 11 you can still face multiple enemies. Just, instead of being a squad of orcs, you get a squad of Minotaurs, who have 76 hp. An AOE using 4d6 for 14 damage is just not quite as useful, since even as a solid blow you are dealing 18% of their health, where before you were hitting for 50% or more.

I mean, I just assumed based off of you saying 'Giants, Dragons, powerful fiends, powerful undead?' As a lot (maybe most idk) of what you were listing are both physically too large to bank on aoeing them and otehrs, and you probably wouldn't have many accompanying creatures with them.

What are you really expecting from this, Fireball level damage? Again I tend to buff the damage a little in my game, but heck even your example: Doing 18% of damage to multiple (potentially all) enemies on the board is pretty damn good, it leaves them significantly injured for the rest of the party to clean up. A racial ability that stands alone instead of being an enhancement, shouldn't compete with other prime things at those levels unless it's a niche situation. Otherwise it greatly belittles classes and what roles the other party members may choose to build for.

That is what I meant. Even as an AOE, the damage numbers didnt' keep up to make it worthwhile compared to taking your normal action.

And I think it should be buffed, I add an additional die, I just don't think a blitz of buffing is what's needed, warranted or good for the game.

Why would he get creamed? What was different about using his breath weapon if it required Misty Step to run away compared to using his normal action?

I didn't think I really needed to elaborate on this, but okay: He was down to less than 30% health, cut off from the rest of the party by more enemies than there was party members. I was using Star Spawn, so he'd have disadvantage to attack the ones that were in front of him anyway, but the reality is this: he wasn't going to kill any of them with two attacks and he needed to get out of dodge or go down. If he attacked them to do more damage to fewer of them, then that's largely irrelevant since after his Misty Step, those monster were then at the back of the group.

By doing what he did, he got away whilst damaging most of them, including the ones that the party would then take on first, which were not the ones he'd be able to melee.

But while it is a team game, it is also a resource management game. If I'm using a second level spell slot to run away after I injury a bunch of enemies with another ability, isn't it better for the team if I could use a 2nd level spell to just kill the enemies instead? Can't get creamed that way.

I don't know why you're assuming killing them was possible in a single action, by taking the course of action he did, he unified most of the party, stopped himself going down (and as he is the primary healer and only member with access to rez magic) that probably stopped a potential TPK happening.

I don't think you actually addressed what Paladins get Burning Hands, but the only AOE he had access to was his breath and Fireball (from a boon, that he had already expended). Just because a slot was used to escape going down, does not mean an option was available for that slot to be used in a damaging way otherwise, nevermind better damage wise than the breath in question.

And, if they are close enough to be finished off by a breath weapon, aren't they close enough by level 5 to be finished off with two melee attacks? Wouldn't I soften up the enemy more by using my weapon to deal 2d8+12 damage instead of 3d6?

Is your assumption here sword and board and dueling? This happened at level 13 and he didn't have Dueling, but to be blunt no, not necessarily. I'm not sure why you seem to be switching over to single target assumptions now either, you listed the damage of both attacks, but just the damage for the aoe would be applied to everyone in the aoe to some degree.

Your very argument (and I'm not saying this is intentional) is very, very misleading in how it's presented.

And your last point just highlights the issue for me. "I literally can't do anything else and don't want to waste my turn." That shouldn't be what your dragon breath feels like. It shouldn't be a "I'd rather use this than waste my turn" it should be something you actively desire to use.

I listed a single additional condition, where a racial ability means that a character can still participate, that's a good thing, you're talking like it's the only time a player would want to use it.

And I'm telling you that unless you want to pigeon hole it for one class or the other, it needed the buffs it got.

You can't say that without justification. What about prof times per day makes it better for terms of equality? It doesn't.

Why is that not okay? What exactly might happen from them being able to do this? They are using a daily resource for about 5d8 damage. That feels pretty standard to me. Maybe a little bit high, but not ridiculous.

Your numbers again veer into favourable territory. It's an aoe, that 3d8 breath weapon will be multiplied across enemies caught into it and there's no reason why teh Bladesinger would use something like Ray of Frost (2d8) and not Firebolt (2d10) or Toll the dead (2d12, since you just blasted them you know they're injured).

And you say daily resource, it's a Wizard, with plenty of spell slots (and Arcane Recovery) to use on other turns and encounters, adding something like this to the bag of tricks is a significant boon, especially since it isn't a spell.

Most tables aren't doing more than 1 short rest per day, if that. A lot of them aren't doing any. So, yeah, I think that is why WoTC is shifting over to Prof per day, because a lot of short rest abilities were becoming daily abilities, and they weren't balanced that way.

Prof per day doesn't line up with two expected SRs a day, it's strictly better level 5 onwards and equal if you're a table that has only one short rest per day before then.

Was there a survey I missed where a lot of people have no short rests at all? Because that isn't a game problem, that's a table problem.

Obviously. But there are plenty of times that it is no-brainer to use it. That is why you took the cantrip you took, right?

This is a little frustrating as I'm not sure if you genuinely don't see the difference or you're playing devil's adovcate because you like the buffs.

A cantrip is not the same league, if you took a damage cantrip then you're using a cantrip instead of what your class gave you. If you could do what your class gives you, then why are you using the cantrip? If it's a niche that means it's the only thing to do, that's something you complained about with the breath weapon. And again, if you use the cantrip, you're not doing anything else. It is a choice to do that or something else. The breath weapon in this UA fits in alongside what an Extra Attack character woudl normally do. That's not the same thing at all.

You said it was a no-brainer that gets used all the time. Every time Poison resistance comes up, it is a no-brainer. Does this critique only apply to active abilities?

...yes.

If it is a passive ability you don't get a choice, so it can't possibly be a no-brainer.

So... your Goliath is a Rogue/Eldritch Knight multi-class with a feat? Well, yeah, you might not get as much use out of reducing damage to yourself if you have two or three other ways to do it.

To a Barbarian who got shot with a lightning bolt though... kind of a no-brainer to reduce that damage.

Hoo-boy, really? I wasn't listing options availble to a single character, I was listing possible reactions that it could clash with to show how Goliaths of different classes and builds could face a choice to make.

Since you felt like ridiculing it though, here's a few different real world examples from two different groups, neither player frequents optimisation boards, all players with drastically different game history:

Sorcadin with Sentinel: normal OA, Sentinel reaction, Shield, Channel Divinity option (Redemption)

Barbarian/Rogue with Defensive Duelist: Normal OA, DD, Uncanny Dodge

Straight Paladin with Magic Initiate: Normal OA, Shield

Having multiple reactions you can take is not only possible, it isn't even uncommon. The Barbarian that reduces damage from the Lightning Bolt loses out on any potential OAs. That said there's no reason that Barbarian couldn't have Shield Master, or Mage Slayer etc.

To you. Not to everyone else.

Fair enough.

Here is the problem with your example.

Dragonborn aren't a subclass within the class, and Dragonbreath isn't either. Your example would be more accurate to saying that if you are playing a warlock you should take Eldritch Blast.

Which, hey, yeah, that is a bit annoying. But not because Eldritch Blast is boring, but because nothing else even comes close to eldritch blast for the warlock. HOWEVER, nothing else SHOULD come close for a Dragonborn using Dragonbreath. Like a Rogue who uses Sneak Attack, yeah, you do it all the time, and it is a no-brainer to use it when you can, but that is your thing, and taking it away and nerfing it isn't what people want.

Nothing should come close for a Dragonborn using Dragonbreath? Really? What about anything they get from their class or any feats?

If you do reply, I would like to see why you think all of them are necessary instead of jsut saying they are, and I'd like some examples of all of those racial abilities that remain universally useful no matter the level of play, without being very niche. Active abilties preferred since, y'know, you actually have to make the choice to use them, but whatever you can find would be nice.

Protolisk

2021-04-21, 08:10 AM

I mean, let's look at some common aspects of dragons that they don't have.
- Any sort of natural armour.
- Wings
- Frightful Presence
- Any draconic skills (e.g. Perception or Intimidatein lieu of the aforementioned Frightful Presence)
- Darkvision
- (minor) Blindsight
- Natural weapons (claws, bite, tail)
- Change Shape (for metallic dragons)

Half of these are available to Dragonborn. As feats. To give them it again would be to make the feats redundant. Which would go some way to reducing power creep that people tend to claim WotC is doing little to stop. How much should be given to a race to start with?

Xanathar gives natural armor, natural weapons, and dragon fear over 2 feats. The fear especially makes sense for a feat because not even real dragons are born with the fear aura.

The Wings are available, technically, to the Gem variant. Perhaps we should make that available to all of them, as a choice?

And the skills could be chosen by basically anyone. Which I suppose isn't needed because you don't need something (the intimidation skill) in lieu of something else (the fear) when you have access to that fear. I also thought they were trying to move away from skills from races (at least stated. I know other recent UA had then again). Even then, they are skills. You could pick them up from your class or background at level 1 anyway. So literally every dragonborn PC can have them.

The only things they don't have any access to naturally are the vision upgrades and Shapechange. I'm fine with the lack of vision because everyone in the edition has darkvision and it's kinda of overblown. As for Shapechange, that's stuff very high level spells are for, unless you are okay with a watered down version like Disguise Self.

These feel like non-issues to me.

jaappleton

2021-04-21, 10:00 AM

The more I think of it, the more I like these options for Warlocks.

Any spell-like ability that a race provides is a good option for a Warlock. Any way to preserve spell slots is a solid option.

Also for Paladins who normally don’t get much as far as AoE options, and often want to reserve slots for Smites.

While not AMAZING AoE, using two attacks at 5th level to deal 6d6 (half on a save) is a very solid option for them to have for when AoE is the best route. On average that’s 21 damage, assuming a failed save, which is equivalent to a not-well rolled fireball.

AKA all my rolls of Fireball....

Segev

2021-04-21, 10:13 AM

A lot of what's in here is "meh, fine, works I guess" stuff. I am not a huge fan nor huge detractor of some of these things. I will say that my favorite thing in this is making the breath weapon usable more than once and making it usable as one attack in an attack action.

If you're going to make it take a full action to use, that's also fine, but it has to be much more impressive so that it competes with a leveled spell or a full series of attacks. And unless you can use it at will, it needs to be better than a full series of attacks in inverse proportion to how rarely you can use it.

It seems to me to be a lot easier to balance it against one attack than both a leveled spell and a full sequence of an unknown number of attacks, and paying for any extra oomph from AoE with a somewhat limited use.

Maybe they should go full dragon-like mechanics and make it a Recharge on 5 or 6, rather than a limits/rest?

x3n0n

2021-04-21, 10:58 AM

Maybe they should go full dragon-like mechanics and make it a Recharge on 5 or 6, rather than a limits/rest?

I think Recharge <N> is not used for PCs for a reason; it's effectively "at least once per encounter" (since you usually have "infinite" rounds between encounters) but with added swingy unpredictability in later rounds of the same combat.

That model makes a lot more sense for monsters, who can't afford to waste their (usually) one moment on screen without their key resource available, but at the same time can't have it available every round; once/encounter is fine there, but it's effectively an unknown "clock" for the PCs: "eventually the dragon will get his breath back, and we should try to take him down before then".

The exceptions (things like features of a Wild Shape, Shapechange, Polymorph form) make more sense to me as exceptions, rather than the default mechanism to control some PC feature.

Segev

2021-04-21, 11:02 AM

I think Recharge <N> is not used for PCs for a reason; it's effectively "at least once per encounter" (since you usually have "infinite" rounds between encounters) but with added swingy unpredictability in later rounds of the same combat.

That model makes a lot more sense for monsters, who can't afford to waste their (usually) one moment on screen without their key resource available, but at the same time can't have it available every round; once/encounter is fine there, but it's effectively an unknown "clock" for the PCs: "eventually the dragon will get his breath back, and we should try to take him down before then".

The exceptions (things like features of a Wild Shape, Shapechange, Polymorph form) make more sense to me as exceptions, rather than the default mechanism to control some PC feature.

Perhaps. I do like the idea that a dragon can't breathe one round after another to "go nova" even if that dragon is a PC, but I do get what you're saying. I even agree that that's probably the reason. And uses/short rest works well enough.

x3n0n

2021-04-21, 11:29 AM

Perhaps. I do like the idea that a dragon can't breathe one round after another to "go nova" even if that dragon is a PC, but I do get what you're saying. I even agree that that's probably the reason. And uses/short rest works well enough.

Aside on Recharge-like effects:

At a first pass, that might look like "Cooldown 1d4 (or 1d4+1)" (after using this feature, roll a d4; at the beginning/end of your turn, decrease the value by one; you may not use this feature again until its value is less than 1).
Then combine that with the normal limit of uses per rest.

That way you get the slowdown effect you wanted, with some unpredictability, but not so much that a player is re-planning his PC's whole turn based on something he rolled at the beginning of turn.

It doesn't have the logarithmic scaling of Recharge N; I don't know if we would consider that a good thing or a bad thing.

Segev

2021-04-21, 11:33 AM

Aside on Recharge-like effects:

At a first pass, that might look like "Cooldown 1d4 (or 1d4+1)" (after using this feature, roll a d4; at the beginning/end of your turn, decrease the value by one; you may not use this feature again until its value is less than 1).
Then combine that with the normal limit of uses per rest.

That way you get the slowdown effect you wanted, with some unpredictability, but not so much that a player is re-planning his PC's whole turn based on something he rolled at the beginning of turn.

It doesn't have the logarithmic scaling of Recharge N; I don't know if we would consider that a good thing or a bad thing.

Good point. I will note that the player needn't replan his turn based on having recovered his breath weapon. He can, but he could go with his turn as planned. He just now knows he has his breath weapon available again on all future rounds until he uses it.

This could also be alleviated entirely in terms of planning by making Recharge be something rolled at the END of the turn, rather than beginning. Use the ability, and at the end of the turn, roll recharge. Or, if you want to guarantee one round of downtime, roll recharge at the end of any turn it wasn't available.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-22, 10:19 PM

That was a tired brain fart for me on the success rate.

So, in your opinion, a +1 Dex is a decent Dex score?

I'm not really trying to get hung up on the definition of "decent" here. It is good enough to make it a coin flip. Not sure how defining "decent" is going to change that.

Honestly because I was most of the way through this reply when my PC crashed and on the second write up I just wanted to get it done.

UGH, that sucks. Sorry you had to go through that man. Worst thing ever.

I mean... what metric are you using for 'most racial abilities are generally useful' (at all levels)? A lot of them are only useful in specific situations, a direct opposite to what you're saying, so I'm not sure what your basis for any of this is.

Their value never goes away.

Look at Tabaxi for a second. No one is likely to argue that their claws don't suck. But Double Movement speed is always equally useful at all levels. Proficiency in skills is equally useful at all levels.

Half-Orc? Their proficiency is equally useful at all levels. Their improved Crit is equally useful at all levels, because weapon damage scales with number of attacks so it is the same boost every level. Not dying once per day, equally useful at all levels.

Cantrips scale and are equally useful at all levels.

And when you start finding abilities that people tend to not like... it tends to be those abilities that don't scale well. The Goliath Endurance doesn't scale well. Or abilities that are so situational as to make you question why, like the Water Genasi getting Create or Destroy Water.

I mean, I just assumed based off of you saying 'Giants, Dragons, powerful fiends, powerful undead?' As a lot (maybe most idk) of what you were listing are both physically too large to bank on aoeing them and otehrs, and you probably wouldn't have many accompanying creatures with them.

What are you really expecting from this, Fireball level damage? Again I tend to buff the damage a little in my game, but heck even your example: Doing 18% of damage to multiple (potentially all) enemies on the board is pretty damn good, it leaves them significantly injured for the rest of the party to clean up. A racial ability that stands alone instead of being an enhancement, shouldn't compete with other prime things at those levels unless it's a niche situation. Otherwise it greatly belittles classes and what roles the other party members may choose to build for.

You are ignoring the other part though. At early levels you were dealing 50%. Isn't that competing with other prime abilities and belittling the roll of classes? To do 18% of 7 hp you would have to deal 1 damage. Would you use that ability at level 2, "As an action deal 1 damage to all foes in a 15 ft cone. This recharges on a short or long rest."

No, I don't think you would. I think that everyone would agree that is trash. And yet, you want to sell that same ratio us at 11th level, and praise it for "significantly injuring" the enemies.

And the biggest thing is, while the now 11th level breath weapon does have a damage buff, 4d8 is an average of 18. That raises us from 18% to 23%. A jump sure, but it is only 4 points of damage more and the math isn't bad here. It just feels better.

And I think it should be buffed, I add an additional die, I just don't think a blitz of buffing is what's needed, warranted or good for the game.

And I disagree because any one of these buffs alone wouldn't be enough. Sure, they'd be nice, but they wouldn't offer what we really need to make this viable for casters and martials. It needed the damage boost and it needed the swap for an attack.

The "prof per long rest" is less a buff and more an overarching design change. They've changed 1 per short rest to this across the board for a year now. It you don't have to like it, but it is just a factor of the evolving design.

I didn't think I really needed to elaborate on this, but okay: He was down to less than 30% health, cut off from the rest of the party by more enemies than there was party members. I was using Star Spawn, so he'd have disadvantage to attack the ones that were in front of him anyway, but the reality is this: he wasn't going to kill any of them with two attacks and he needed to get out of dodge or go down. If he attacked them to do more damage to fewer of them, then that's largely irrelevant since after his Misty Step, those monster were then at the back of the group.

By doing what he did, he got away whilst damaging most of them, including the ones that the party would then take on first, which were not the ones he'd be able to melee.

So, highly specific and somewhat confusing real world example. Got it. I have no idea why attacking the ones he could reach was bad, I guess he was behind the enemy so the rest of the party was hitting the front of the enemy. But this is highly idiosyncratic so declaring that Dragon Breath as an action is good because you can hit the opposite side of the enemy because they are between the party and you are too low health to risky staying in melee, that is just taking an anecdote too far.

I don't know why you're assuming killing them was possible in a single action, by taking the course of action he did, he unified most of the party, stopped himself going down (and as he is the primary healer and only member with access to rez magic) that probably stopped a potential TPK happening.

I don't think you actually addressed what Paladins get Burning Hands, but the only AOE he had access to was his breath and Fireball (from a boon, that he had already expended). Just because a slot was used to escape going down, does not mean an option was available for that slot to be used in a damaging way otherwise, nevermind better damage wise than the breath in question.

Because I'm talking in general. Dragon Breath should be useful for more than injured Vengeance Paladins who are split off from the party. If I'm playing a wizard and I run up, dragon breath and misty step, but I could have gotten better damage by running up and casting a 2nd level burning hands, or by staying back and throwing a shatter, then Dragon Breath isn't useful.

You seem to be baffled that we want an iconic ability to be our second or third option, instead of our last option. And no body thinks this is going to be a go to option for anybody except martials who might be facing a horde... in which case, them getting an AOE isn't the end of the world.

Is your assumption here sword and board and dueling? This happened at level 13 and he didn't have Dueling, but to be blunt no, not necessarily. I'm not sure why you seem to be switching over to single target assumptions now either, you listed the damage of both attacks, but just the damage for the aoe would be applied to everyone in the aoe to some degree.

Your very argument (and I'm not saying this is intentional) is very, very misleading in how it's presented.

I always try and assume sword and board dueling, as it is a vanilla middle of the road build. If people are going for higher damage they tend to do other things, but very few opt for lower damage than this.

And, I was assuming the damage being spread out over two targets. In my experience, a 15 ft cone generally hits two or three enemies. But, enemy health can be conceived of as a single pool, like you are doing by applying 3d6 to every enemy. So, whether it was single target or duo targets doesn't matter.

Also, to be generally clear, you seem to assume lower CR creatures like goblins when defending Dragon breath. But, as we established, a 3d6 dragon breath is likely to only severely injure 3 goblins. The attacks are nearly guaranteed to kill two (only way they don't is if you miss the swing). Two dead enemies is better for your action economy, and you didn't use up a resource in the process. And, instead of needing potentially three more source of damage, you might only need one to finish of the single goblin.

I listed a single additional condition, where a racial ability means that a character can still participate, that's a good thing, you're talking like it's the only time a player would want to use it.

It is the only time I've seen it used, when the player literally felt like they had no other viable option.

You can't say that without justification. What about prof times per day makes it better for terms of equality? It doesn't.

And has been addressed. That is new standard design. Sorry you don't like it, but they've been making this swap over for a year now. It wasn't just for this.

Your numbers again veer into favourable territory. It's an aoe, that 3d8 breath weapon will be multiplied across enemies caught into it and there's no reason why teh Bladesinger would use something like Ray of Frost (2d8) and not Firebolt (2d10) or Toll the dead (2d12, since you just blasted them you know they're injured).

And you say daily resource, it's a Wizard, with plenty of spell slots (and Arcane Recovery) to use on other turns and encounters, adding something like this to the bag of tricks is a significant boon, especially since it isn't a spell.

How is being favorable a bad thing? Oh no, the Bladesinger Dragonborn wizard might do some mid-tier damage with a daily resource, and they are a wizard who has a lot of daily resources already.

Here, let me give you a different one. The Dragonborn Fighter might be able to deal 3d8 damage in an AOE and then attack with their sword for 1d8+6. And they don't have a lot of daily resources to use.

The issue with your example isn't that the Breath weapon is too powerful, it is the Bladesinger Wizard and Wizards in general.

Prof per day doesn't line up with two expected SRs a day, it's strictly better level 5 onwards and equal if you're a table that has only one short rest per day before then.

Was there a survey I missed where a lot of people have no short rests at all? Because that isn't a game problem, that's a table problem.

It has been a thing for a while. Not sure how you missed it.

This is a little frustrating as I'm not sure if you genuinely don't see the difference or you're playing devil's adovcate because you like the buffs.

A cantrip is not the same league, if you took a damage cantrip then you're using a cantrip instead of what your class gave you. If you could do what your class gives you, then why are you using the cantrip? If it's a niche that means it's the only thing to do, that's something you complained about with the breath weapon. And again, if you use the cantrip, you're not doing anything else. It is a choice to do that or something else. The breath weapon in this UA fits in alongside what an Extra Attack character woudl normally do. That's not the same thing at all.

Booming Blade on a Rogue massively boosts what their class gives them. My sister mains a High Elf Swashbuckler with Booming Blade constantly.

Firebolt is a ranged attack. Far greater range than the breath weapon. Less likely to be used, but what about on a spellcaster who took that from their ancestry so that they could focus on other spells. Like a Druid who prefers getting in close, but has this firebolt as their ranged attack option?

Maybe you are playing an artificer and took Mending, which is nearly mandatory for the Battle Smith and Artillerist to keep their companions alive, and gives you more cantrip options for them, since they are highly limited.

The point is, if you planned to take a race, and get a cantrip, and took that cantrip... you are planning on using it. It is a core part of your strategy one way or the other. But, for the dragonborn, you seem to have a problem that the player might take this race, and plan to use this ability in more than the rare fight where the stars align. That isn't a problem, that is normal play. "People will want to use this and that's boring" is a bad argument in my opinion.

...yes.

If it is a passive ability you don't get a choice, so it can't possibly be a no-brainer.

Seems like not getting a choice requires less brain.

Hoo-boy, really? I wasn't listing options availble to a single character, I was listing possible reactions that it could clash with to show how Goliaths of different classes and builds could face a choice to make.

Since you felt like ridiculing it though, here's a few different real world examples from two different groups, neither player frequents optimisation boards, all players with drastically different game history:

Sorcadin with Sentinel: normal OA, Sentinel reaction, Shield, Channel Divinity option (Redemption)

Barbarian/Rogue with Defensive Duelist: Normal OA, DD, Uncanny Dodge

Straight Paladin with Magic Initiate: Normal OA, Shield

Having multiple reactions you can take is not only possible, it isn't even uncommon. The Barbarian that reduces damage from the Lightning Bolt loses out on any potential OAs. That said there's no reason that Barbarian couldn't have Shield Master, or Mage Slayer etc.

Then... shouldn't they plan around that? I mean, if I have multiple competing reactions, I generally have a plan for how to scale and use those reactions. You seem to think that somehow having options is a bad thing... but the Goliath ability is 1/day. Or maybe 1/SR. Either way, it makes a lot of sense to use it up, it isn't like saving it does you any good.

Nothing should come close for a Dragonborn using Dragonbreath? Really? What about anything they get from their class or any feats?

If you do reply, I would like to see why you think all of them are necessary instead of jsut saying they are, and I'd like some examples of all of those racial abilities that remain universally useful no matter the level of play, without being very niche. Active abilties preferred since, y'know, you actually have to make the choice to use them, but whatever you can find would be nice.

Sure, I got a little hyperbolic there at the end. Because an evoker wizard using fireball blows any possible use of Dragonbreath out of the water and steam fries it.

But you seem to be presenting this like it is a problem that people will want to use an iconic ability. That isn't a problem. That is what should happen.

And I gave examples of abilities up above.

quindraco

2021-04-22, 10:31 PM

Half of these are available to Dragonborn. As feats. To give them it again would be to make the feats redundant. Which would go some way to reducing power creep that people tend to claim WotC is doing little to stop. How much should be given to a race to start with?

Xanathar gives natural armor, natural weapons, and dragon fear over 2 feats. The fear especially makes sense for a feat because not even real dragons are born with the fear aura.

The Wings are available, technically, to the Gem variant. Perhaps we should make that available to all of them, as a choice?

And the skills could be chosen by basically anyone. Which I suppose isn't needed because you don't need something (the intimidation skill) in lieu of something else (the fear) when you have access to that fear. I also thought they were trying to move away from skills from races (at least stated. I know other recent UA had then again). Even then, they are skills. You could pick them up from your class or background at level 1 anyway. So literally every dragonborn PC can have them.

The only things they don't have any access to naturally are the vision upgrades and Shapechange. I'm fine with the lack of vision because everyone in the edition has darkvision and it's kinda of overblown. As for Shapechange, that's stuff very high level spells are for, unless you are okay with a watered down version like Disguise Self.

These feel like non-issues to me.

As an aside, I don't think there are any chromatic dragons with change shape. I'm all in favor of different colors of Dragonborn getting different abilities, but there's just no good reason to give any ability to all dragonborn if it's an ability only some true dragons have. I believe the most basic true dragon is the Red one, so if you want to argue for Dragonborn racials, I feel like they're the place to start, and they don't get shapechange. Or a swim speed. Or several other things some other dragons get.

Incidentally, giving them 10 foot blindsight instead of darkvision would be very draconic. All true dragons do get that. And since it's a fighting style, it's functionally been declared weaker than darkvision, so no balance concerns.

Citadel97501

2021-04-23, 12:43 AM

Anyone else looked at the dragon breath change and thought, I wonder if that would be fun with a Gloom Stalker. Stealth up, then hop out of nowhere with a breath weapon followed by melee brutality.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-23, 01:28 AM

I'm not really trying to get hung up on the definition of "decent" here. It is good enough to make it a coin flip. Not sure how defining "decent" is going to change that.

You made a sweeping generalisation that I don't think most people would initially agree with so wanted clarity, if +1 Dex is 'decent' then all it takes is a +3 Con or hitting a prof improvement to suddenly make it 'not decent' based on making it a coin flip or not.

UGH, that sucks. Sorry you had to go through that man. Worst thing ever.

Thanks, unfortunately as my PC ages it is an increasingly frequent issue, old boy still plays the games I like just fine though.

Their value never goes away.

Look at Tabaxi for a second. No one is likely to argue that their claws don't suck. But Double Movement speed is always equally useful at all levels. Proficiency in skills is equally useful at all levels.

Including things like proficiencies will make this messy, since the Dragonborn gets resistance and that if anything, gets more important as the levels go up.

But on the universally useful note: Feline Agility realistically declines in usefulness for all Monks and Barbarians. As their movement speed increases, their base speed is more likely to cover the incombat distance they need to travel. Where as Feline Agility is really neat, but incredibly situational. I've both played and DM'd Tabaxi's that had no need for it for sessions on end, where as one player used it every chance they could get. It's a niche ability, and seems to be the centrepiece of the Tabaxi in your eyes, that would be a bad thing for the Dragonborn..?

Half-Orc? Their proficiency is equally useful at all levels. Their improved Crit is equally useful at all levels, because weapon damage scales with number of attacks so it is the same boost every level. Not dying once per day, equally useful at all levels.

Improved crit is not equally useful at all levels for anyone apart from the Fighter. Every other martial class scales weapon damage in other ways after 5th, with the die size itself not really changing either.

Cantrips scale and are equally useful at all levels.

Offensive cantrips scale, there's a lot of cantrips that have no scaling. I've seen High Elves take Light, Mage Hand and Prestigiditation.

And when you start finding abilities that people tend to not like... it tends to be those abilities that don't scale well. The Goliath Endurance doesn't scale well. Or abilities that are so situational as to make you question why, like the Water Genasi getting Create or Destroy Water.

Stone's Endurance doesn't scale particularly well at high levels, but it's arguably overkill early on and about right in Tier 2 for it's intended purpose (shrug the worst of a hit off). Though this is just looking at purely reducing damage to maintain experience:

As the levels go up Casters become more reliant on concentration spells by and large to maximise their effectiveness, by the very (stupid) nature of concentration saves 1d12+Con can trivialise big hits for saving purposes, regardless the actual hp lost.

It can also save you from instadeath, a very real threat in Tier 1 (and depending your class and life choices, Tier 2).

A lot of races that give you spells don't age particularly well, examples:

Drow's Faerie Fire

Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke (I know there's a bazillion and one Tiefling flavours now with different spells, but there's only so much time in the day and I imagine the same applies to a lot of them)

Githyanki's Jump

Most Genasi (Earth gets a pass)

Triton's... everything

Otherwise:

Any weapon or armor proficiency is very easily wasted

Alternative movement speeds are nice, but easily lose their shine at later levels or are very niche

Bugbear's Surprise Attack is in the same bin as Assassinate

The number of subraces or whole races that are underwhelming or incredibly niche aren't exactly infrequent:

Centaur unless your goal is crazy movement speed

Changeling give you nothing really but roleplay fodder and maybe recon

Dwarf (Mountain) is pretty bad in general unless you use Tasha's optional rule

Hobgoblin's are very underwhelming

Vanilla Humans unless you are a very unlucky roller (oh have I been there) or have abserd aspirations

Kalashtar are pretty bad

Kenku read like they had a central ability that they accidentally hit delete on

Loxodons are pretty bad unless you want to grapple with a great weapon or sword and board

Minotaurs are eh at a generous best

Orcs feel like they're missing a central ability (especially in comparison to Half Orcs)

Simic Hybrid is pretty bad until you hit 5th, then eh

The bar for racial abilities really isn't very high overall.

You are ignoring the other part though. At early levels you were dealing 50%. Isn't that competing with other prime abilities and belittling the roll of classes? To do 18% of 7 hp you would have to deal 1 damage. Would you use that ability at level 2, "As an action deal 1 damage to all foes in a 15 ft cone. This recharges on a short or long rest."

No, I don't think you would. I think that everyone would agree that is trash. And yet, you want to sell that same ratio us at 11th level, and praise it for "significantly injuring" the enemies.

Frankly, because low level characters can do jack from their classes alone. Any low level caster gets a whole lot more castery by taking a race that gives spells, even if they quickly fall off later. Levels 1-2 are meant to go by quickly, if they're played at all, gaining a substantial ability at those levels isn't an issue, it's arguably needed a lot of the time since low level D&D is deadly AF.

Player damage and monster hp don't really scale at the same rate, especially with other factors like resistance coming into play.

This really just highlights to me though that one thing I'd change is the level things scale at, shift it to tiers and just have the number of dice the breath does = prof mod. Moving everything down a level and upping the ceiling would help how they feel, a change like this would work well with bumping the die up to d8s as well I feel.

And the biggest thing is, while the now 11th level breath weapon does have a damage buff, 4d8 is an average of 18. That raises us from 18% to 23%. A jump sure, but it is only 4 points of damage more and the math isn't bad here. It just feels better.

The die size increase isn't really (and has never really been) my problem, it's more why throw this on top of the other buffs. If all you're changing is the damage, a single die size is small potatoes and not worth the confusion it'll create.

And I disagree because any one of these buffs alone wouldn't be enough. Sure, they'd be nice, but they wouldn't offer what we really need to make this viable for casters and martials. It needed the damage boost and it needed the swap for an attack.

It only really needed a damage boost, it's an aoe. Martials will use it when they could use an aoe, need the damage type etc. Casters can use it when they're low on slots or build around having it instead of taking certain other aoes

The "prof per long rest" is less a buff and more an overarching design change. They've changed 1 per short rest to this across the board for a year now. It you don't have to like it, but it is just a factor of the evolving design.

When it's used on a race that already exists, on a feature that already exists, it is a buff regardless of design ethos. SR abilities still exist in the game and out number the prof per day ones.

It's not even a sweeping design change either:

The Cleric and Paladin's optional slot regeneration can be used a number of times a day depending on their level

Quite a lot of abilities are once per long rest unless you burn a slot

All of the Rune Knight's active rune abilities are once per short or long rest

The psi die regen of the Soulknife and Psi Warrior are short rest based

The recovery/use mechanics in place are anything but uniform and the reality is this:

We've had one book with that prof bonus nonesense in, Tasha's. All the UA content amounts for little until it's in a book, and until it is I'll keep voicing my dislike and criticisms of it because that is the entire point of UA.

So, highly specific and somewhat confusing real world example. Got it. I have no idea why attacking the ones he could reach was bad, I guess he was behind the enemy so the rest of the party was hitting the front of the enemy. But this is highly idiosyncratic so declaring that Dragon Breath as an action is good because you can hit the opposite side of the enemy because they are between the party and you are too low health to risky staying in melee, that is just taking an anecdote too far.

All I did was give an example that had literally just happened, though being low on health and outnumbered aren't really uncommon at all. I never said it was good because you could hit the other side of the enemy, I explained why in this case hitting with his sword was not the best use of his action.

Because I'm talking in general. Dragon Breath should be useful for more than injured Vengeance Paladins who are split off from the party. If I'm playing a wizard and I run up, dragon breath and misty step, but I could have gotten better damage by running up and casting a 2nd level burning hands, or by staying back and throwing a shatter, then Dragon Breath isn't useful.

Please don't take my example as if it is my entire argument, it leads to what looks like hyperbole that isn't helpful to anyone.

To take your example: If a caster knows they will have access to an aoe, then it means they can choose to not prepare or even take an aoe (or just reduce the ones they take) similar to your caster taking a cantrip race argument.

You seem to be baffled that we want an iconic ability to be our second or third option, instead of our last option. And no body thinks this is going to be a go to option for anybody except martials who might be facing a horde... in which case, them getting an AOE isn't the end of the world.

Being able to do something is iconic.

Actual dragons don't rely on their breath weapons, they're lucky if they can do it once a fight, and when they do it's their entire action. Something being iconic is a poor argument for it being powerful, nor should it be a good one, it leads to nonesense like Fireball being unusually good just because it's Fireball.

As it stands, I don't see why it wouldn't be a go to option, it's straight better than attacking twice unless you have a lot of riders on said attack.

I always try and assume sword and board dueling, as it is a vanilla middle of the road build. If people are going for higher damage they tend to do other things, but very few opt for lower damage than this.

That feels more optimiser board baseline than real world, I've seen plenty of martials prefer something like Defense or protection to Dueling.

And, I was assuming the damage being spread out over two targets. In my experience, a 15 ft cone generally hits two or three enemies. But, enemy health can be conceived of as a single pool, like you are doing by applying 3d6 to every enemy. So, whether it was single target or duo targets doesn't matter.

That isn't how you wrote it though, you said: 'Wouldn't I soften up the enemy more by using my weapon to deal 2d8+12 damage instead of 3d6?'

And that paints a drastically different picture. You also assume successes on the part of all Goblins, which would be unfortunate if you're hitting 2/3 but still isn't bad.

Also, to be generally clear, you seem to assume lower CR creatures like goblins when defending Dragon breath. But, as we established, a 3d6 dragon breath is likely to only severely injure 3 goblins. The attacks are nearly guaranteed to kill two (only way they don't is if you miss the swing). Two dead enemies is better for your action economy, and you didn't use up a resource in the process. And, instead of needing potentially three more source of damage, you might only need one to finish of the single goblin.

It's an aoe, so I'm generally assuming more numerous weaker creatures

So let's say that there's 3 Goblins, you kill one and severly injure two others, the 'insert caster here' can then 'insert aoe here' and get a guaranteed kill on them even if they saved.

Just because you don't kill everything you hit, doesn't mean you didn't do better than just killing two (which is only as favourable as you paint if you take dueling).

Similarly, you don't have to open up with breath, you could try and use it to finish multiple severely injured enemies.

It is the only time I've seen it used, when the player literally felt like they had no other viable option.

That's your personal experience, mine significantly difffers.

And has been addressed. That is new standard design. Sorry you don't like it, but they've been making this swap over for a year now. It wasn't just for this.

One book published, and it still contains a mix of refresh mechanics, so the ship has hardly sailed just because we have some UA.

How is being favorable a bad thing? Oh no, the Bladesinger Dragonborn wizard might do some mid-tier damage with a daily resource, and they are a wizard who has a lot of daily resources already.

What? The example I gave you is 26.5 average damage, Fireball is 28. What's midtier about that?

Here, let me give you a different one. The Dragonborn Fighter might be able to deal 3d8 damage in an AOE and then attack with their sword for 1d8+6. And they don't have a lot of daily resources to use.

And then Action Surge and do the same thing again. And then after a short rest attack breath, Action Surge attack attack.

Or hey, breath to incap, breath again, action surge attack twice.

Or attack with a great weapon for more damage

Or drop a maneuver or insert ability here on the attack at the same time.

I haven't bother to look, but the fact that it still counts as taking the attack action is bound to have some funky interactions.

It's something that just screams nova or find ways to abuse, and it's unnecessary.

The issue with your example isn't that the Breath weapon is too powerful, it is the Bladesinger Wizard and Wizards in general.

The issue is also them not considering knock on implications of stacking powercreep. Bladesinger gets republished=powercreep

Dragonborn gets republished=powercreep (if this version is published)

It has been a thing for a while. Not sure how you missed it.

Didn't miss it, not a complete thing, if anything their actual design goal is:

Use prof bonus in more places.

In which case: Dragonbreath weapon is xd8 where x is your prof bonus. Done.

Booming Blade on a Rogue massively boosts what their class gives them. My sister mains a High Elf Swashbuckler with Booming Blade constantly.

That's not universally useful, that's a niche cantrip on a class that only gets one default attack anyway. It's also costing her TWF, which is not only another chance to land sneak, but would allow her to leverage Fancy Footwork more to Skirmish effectively.

It'd also really suck for her if an enemy caster counterspelled her only attack that turn. Counterspelling a cantrip feels a lot better when said cantrip had Sneak dice behind it.

Firebolt is a ranged attack. Far greater range than the breath weapon. Less likely to be used, but what about on a spellcaster who took that from their ancestry so that they could focus on other spells. Like a Druid who prefers getting in close, but has this firebolt as their ranged attack option?

High Elf locks you into Intelligence for the casting stat regardless of Tasha's optional stat moving, so I'd say that Druid is hoping the dice carry them or has an unusually high Int mod.

Maybe you are playing an artificer and took Mending, which is nearly mandatory for the Battle Smith and Artillerist to keep their companions alive, and gives you more cantrip options for them, since they are highly limited.

Not mandatory for either of them and again a niche case: caster with limited cantrips, that uses subclasses that can benefit from a particular cantrip more. Arguably the Artillerist would be better off picking up another damage cantrip for their Arcane Firearm ability, which amounts to 'having options.'

The point is, if you planned to take a race, and get a cantrip, and took that cantrip... you are planning on using it. It is a core part of your strategy one way or the other. But, for the dragonborn, you seem to have a problem that the player might take this race, and plan to use this ability in more than the rare fight where the stars align. That isn't a problem, that is normal play. "People will want to use this and that's boring" is a bad argument in my opinion.

And if you play a dragonborn, and get a breath weapon... you'll probably end up using it. Both my current dragonborn plays make use of it, dragonborn players I've DM'd in the past have made use of it (campaigns and one shots)... Outside of boards like this a huge driving factor for a character is theme and quite frankly as long as they can do the iconic thing, it doesn't matter if it isn't the optimum thing in the moment.

Seems like not getting a choice requires less brain.

Amusing but not helpful or addressing that passive abilities are just, not really applicable.

Then... shouldn't they plan around that? I mean, if I have multiple competing reactions, I generally have a plan for how to scale and use those reactions. You seem to think that somehow having options is a bad thing... but the Goliath ability is 1/day. Or maybe 1/SR. Either way, it makes a lot of sense to use it up, it isn't like saving it does you any good.

You're a caster looking to reduce a Concentration save, you're low level hoping to reduce the damage that will inevitiably down you so you don't die, you could reduce this damage, but might get smacked around or might be able to kill x.

You can (and I think most do) for what you'd like to do, but plans rarely survive contact with the enemy and before you can very easily be put into a situation where you have to choose:

I can hit x, I might kill them but there's other monsters left this turn and if they hit me it'll be really nasty if I don't reduce it. So, try and reduce their numbers, or save your skin?

Competing choices for the same action economy is a blessing and a curse.

Sure, I got a little hyperbolic there at the end. Because an evoker wizard using fireball blows any possible use of Dragonbreath out of the water and steam fries it.

But you seem to be presenting this like it is a problem that people will want to use an iconic ability. That isn't a problem. That is what should happen.

People want to use something iconic because it's iconic, it doesn't need to be... this to be used. And when it's good enough that you're using it more frequently in a fight that an actual dragon does, that's not using it to be like the icon anymore (nevermind the fact that so many things have breath weapons it's arguable it's even iconic of a dragon, Hell Hounds and Abominable Yetis do for Torm's sake.)

Just give it a minor damage buff to bring it up to snuff and then give them abilities that actually feel more like real dragons.

Bilbron

2021-04-23, 10:52 AM

My thoughts on Draconic Options (video only, I'm afraid... no notes as it was unscripted):

11:21

https://youtu.be/SpePqhVZCkM

TL;DW: I like them all and think them all excellent, balanced additions, except for Flame Stride and Summon Draconic Spirit.

MaxWilson

2021-04-23, 12:11 PM

UGH, that sucks. Sorry you had to go through that man. Worst thing ever.

Thanks, unfortunately as my PC ages it is an increasingly frequent issue, old boy still plays the games I like just fine though.

This exchange made me very curious until I went back, checked the context, and realized that PC here did not stand for Player Character.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-23, 12:14 PM

This exchange made me very curious until I went back, checked the context, and realized that PC here did not stand for Player Character.

Who knew playing a Goblin long term using Constantine rules would be a bad idea?

Chaosmancer

2021-04-23, 01:49 PM

. You made a sweeping generalisation that I don't think most people would initially agree with so wanted clarity, if +1 Dex is 'decent' then all it takes is a +3 Con or hitting a prof improvement to suddenly make it 'not decent' based on making it a coin flip or not.

And a "decent" strength at level 1 isn't decent by level 18. You didn't even want me including monsters of mid-CR so I'm not sure what you want me to say about things increase over time.

. Including things like proficiencies will make this messy, since the Dragonborn gets resistance and that if anything, gets more important as the levels go up.

But on the universally useful note: Feline Agility realistically declines in usefulness for all Monks and Barbarians. As their movement speed increases, their base speed is more likely to cover the incombat distance they need to travel. Where as Feline Agility is really neat, but incredibly situational. I've both played and DM'd Tabaxi's that had no need for it for sessions on end, where as one player used it every chance they could get. It's a niche ability, and seems to be the centrepiece of the Tabaxi in your eyes, that would be a bad thing for the Dragonborn..?

I've seen it go up in value over time, though I will acknowledge the need for it can become niche if you have a high enough base speed. That isn't a leveling thing though. A fighter at level 1 gets the same value as a fighter at level 20. This is a big difference. And proficiency's are included because they are a fine ability and they retain usefulness over levels. Just like the Dragonborn's Resistance. Which is an ability they have that keeps usefulness over levels.

. Improved crit is not equally useful at all levels for anyone apart from the Fighter. Every other martial class scales weapon damage in other ways after 5th, with the die size itself not really changing either.

A Half-Orc Paladin who cries with their longsword gets 3d8 damage at level 1, level 5 and level 11. The general value of "critical harder" is still applicable.

. Offensive cantrips scale, there's a lot of cantrips that have no scaling. I've seen High Elves take Light, Mage Hand and Prestigiditation.

Great. Mage Hand retains the same usefulness at level 17 that it had at level 1. That isn't damage, but you chose not to take a damaging cantrip, nothing I can do about that.

. Stone's Endurance doesn't scale particularly well at high levels, but it's arguably overkill early on and about right in Tier 2 for it's intended purpose (shrug the worst of a hit off). Though this is just looking at purely reducing damage to maintain experience:

As the levels go up Casters become more reliant on concentration spells by and large to maximise their effectiveness, by the very (stupid) nature of concentration saves 1d12+Con can trivialise big hits for saving purposes, regardless the actual hp lost.

It can also save you from instadeath, a very real threat in Tier 1 (and depending your class and life choices, Tier 2).

A lot of races that give you spells don't age particularly well, examples:

Drow's Faerie Fire

Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke (I know there's a bazillion and one Tiefling flavours now with different spells, but there's only so much time in the day and I imagine the same applies to a lot of them)

Githyanki's Jump

Most Genasi (Earth gets a pass)

Triton's... everything

Otherwise:

Any weapon or armor proficiency is very easily wasted

Alternative movement speeds are nice, but easily lose their shine at later levels or are very niche

Bugbear's Surprise Attack is in the same bin as Assassinate

The number of subraces or whole races that are underwhelming or incredibly niche aren't exactly infrequent:

Centaur unless your goal is crazy movement speed

Changeling give you nothing really but roleplay fodder and maybe recon

Dwarf (Mountain) is pretty bad in general unless you use Tasha's optional rule

Hobgoblin's are very underwhelming

Vanilla Humans unless you are a very unlucky roller (oh have I been there) or have abserd aspirations

Kalashtar are pretty bad

Kenku read like they had a central ability that they accidentally hit delete on

Loxodons are pretty bad unless you want to grapple with a great weapon or sword and board

Minotaurs are eh at a generous best

Orcs feel like they're missing a central ability (especially in comparison to Half Orcs)

Simic Hybrid is pretty bad until you hit 5th, then eh

The bar for racial abilities really isn't very high overall.

I disagree with you on one or two of those, but that doesn't matter. Because also on that list? The original Dragonborn Breath Weapon.

They changed it. They should probably change A LOT of those races. With Tasha's it is now a lot easier to not waste Proficiencies. That helps. A lot of those spells can be useful if planned around correctly. Some of those aren't primary abilities.

But, just because you can point out bad abilities doesn't change the idea that, if abilities shouldn't be bad, we should design them differently.

. Frankly, because low level characters can do jack from their classes alone. Any low level caster gets a whole lot more castery by taking a race that gives spells, even if they quickly fall off later. Levels 1-2 are meant to go by quickly, if they're played at all, gaining a substantial ability at those levels isn't an issue, it's arguably needed a lot of the time since low level D&D is deadly AF.

Sleep. Magic Missile. There is a lot of great stuff at early levels. You just can't do a lot of it. At level 2 a Ranger with Dual-Wielding and Hunter's Mark is a blender. Monks are amazing. It just doesn't feel impressive because you are weak and 5th level is such a huge jump.

. Player damage and monster hp don't really scale at the same rate, especially with other factors like resistance coming into play.

This really just highlights to me though that one thing I'd change is the level things scale at, shift it to tiers and just have the number of dice the breath does = prof mod. Moving everything down a level and upping the ceiling would help how they feel, a change like this would work well with bumping the die up to d8s as well I feel.

IT might be a good change. I think they are shifting close to that point, but I'd need to look at all of it.

. The die size increase isn't really (and has never really been) my problem, it's more why throw this on top of the other buffs. If all you're changing is the damage, a single die size is small potatoes and not worth the confusion it'll create.

It only really needed a damage boost, it's an aoe. Martials will use it when they could use an aoe, need the damage type etc. Casters can use it when they're low on slots or build around having it instead of taking certain other aoes

I haven't seen any confusion. And we've addressed the other issues and why they needed fixed.

. When it's used on a race that already exists, on a feature that already exists, it is a buff regardless of design ethos. SR abilities still exist in the game and out number the prof per day ones.

It's not even a sweeping design change either:

The Cleric and Paladin's optional slot regeneration can be used a number of times a day depending on their level

Quite a lot of abilities are once per long rest unless you burn a slot

All of the Rune Knight's active rune abilities are once per short or long rest

The psi die regen of the Soulknife and Psi Warrior are short rest based

The recovery/use mechanics in place are anything but uniform and the reality is this:

We've had one book with that prof bonus nonesense in, Tasha's. All the UA content amounts for little until it's in a book, and until it is I'll keep voicing my dislike and criticisms of it because that is the entire point of UA.

Just pointing out man, if they are making this change fairly consistently, then it shouldn't be that big of a shock when they do it again. Feel free to voice your complaints, but this isn't a "why did they add this buff to Dragonborn" as much as it is "why are you moving away from 1/SR as a mechanic"

Being able to do something is iconic.

Actual dragons don't rely on their breath weapons, they're lucky if they can do it once a fight, and when they do it's their entire action. Something being iconic is a poor argument for it being powerful, nor should it be a good one, it leads to nonesense like Fireball being unusually good just because it's Fireball.

As it stands, I don't see why it wouldn't be a go to option, it's straight better than attacking twice unless you have a lot of riders on said attack.

I'll agree the monster design for Dragons could have used a lot of work. But, come on, don't try and sell me on the idea that Dragon's Breath isn't iconic in the extreme

And, as someone who recently had the harrowing experience of a dragon who recharged three times in a row... I can attest to why they made that difficult and rare.

. That feels more optimiser board baseline than real world, I've seen plenty of martials prefer something like Defense or protection to Dueling.

Sure, it can happen. I've seen it too. People tend to overvalue damage though, so I've seen a lot more with dueling.

*Snipping a lot, these responses are getting too big*

What? The example I gave you is 26.5 average damage, Fireball is 28. What's midtier about that?

Average of 26.5 to one creature, average of 13.5 to the others (If I remember the level correctly)

And then Action Surge and do the same thing again. And then after a short rest attack breath, Action Surge attack attack.

Or hey, breath to incap, breath again, action surge attack twice.

Or attack with a great weapon for more damage

Or drop a maneuver or insert ability here on the attack at the same time.

I haven't bother to look, but the fact that it still counts as taking the attack action is bound to have some funky interactions.

It's something that just screams nova or find ways to abuse, and it's unnecessary.

"The fighter might use another iconic and powerful ability to cool things with it"

Yeah, I know. But if the fighter is dropping their single action surge and two of their daily breath weapons, I'd sure hope it was an impressive display. Or hey, maybe they drop a daily ability, a daily resource and their action surge. Again, shouldn't that be rather impressive?

Action Surge is powerful. We know this. A high-level Eldritch Knight (or a slightly lower one with a wand) can fireball, action surge, Fireball. That is also impressive.

. That's not universally useful, that's a niche cantrip on a class that only gets one default attack anyway. It's also costing her TWF, which is not only another chance to land sneak, but would allow her to leverage Fancy Footwork more to Skirmish effectively.

It'd also really suck for her if an enemy caster counterspelled her only attack that turn. Counterspelling a cantrip feels a lot better when said cantrip had Sneak dice behind it.

1) You can still dual-wield, you just can't do both the same turn

2) Yes, an enemy counter spelling you sucks. Still, please counter spell and cancel my at-will ability before I even roll. That just means you are out a 3rd level slot and don't have a counter spell for our actual spell casters. Enjoy the [Insert powerful spell here]

High Elf locks you into Intelligence for the casting stat regardless of Tasha's optional stat moving, so I'd say that Druid is hoping the dice carry them or has an unusually high Int mod.

Either one is valid. I specifically chose a less optimized thing, because the logic behind choosing and using it is consistent. When it applies, you always use it. The thing you are complaining about with the Dragonborn.

Not mandatory for either of them and again a niche case: caster with limited cantrips, that uses subclasses that can benefit from a particular cantrip more. Arguably the Artillerist would be better off picking up another damage cantrip for their Arcane Firearm ability, which amounts to 'having options.'

Also valid, but trust me, keeping that turret alive has a lot of value. Enough I went with a single damage cantrip when I played one.

. And if you play a dragonborn, and get a breath weapon... you'll probably end up using it. Both my current dragonborn plays make use of it, dragonborn players I've DM'd in the past have made use of it (campaigns and one shots)... Outside of boards like this a huge driving factor for a character is theme and quite frankly as long as they can do the iconic thing, it doesn't matter if it isn't the optimum thing in the moment.

But a lot of people didn't like it, because it wasn't a good option, and therefore they never did the thing.

People want to use something iconic because it's iconic, it doesn't need to be... this to be used. And when it's good enough that you're using it more frequently in a fight that an actual dragon does, that's not using it to be like the icon anymore (nevermind the fact that so many things have breath weapons it's arguable it's even iconic of a dragon, Hell Hounds and Abominable Yetis do for Torm's sake.)

Just give it a minor damage buff to bring it up to snuff and then give them abilities that actually feel more like real dragons.

Ah yes, all that classic fantasy art that includes yetis using their breath weapon. Just because something else uses it, doesn't mean that it isn't iconic for a different creature.

None of the other iconic dragon abilities are going to really fly. Blindsense would never get through. Flight won't make it. You might be able to do something with fear, but that is already a feat. There isn't a lot else except the scales. Which would be cool, but I can see why they didn't.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-23, 04:24 PM

And a "decent" strength at level 1 isn't decent by level 18. You didn't even want me including monsters of mid-CR so I'm not sure what you want me to say about things increase over time.

It's not that I didn't want you including mid-CR, it's that you brought up a CR 8 creature against a DC that wouldn't reasonably apply to them. Higher CR creatures should be looked at in respect to the DC they'd reasonably expect to face.

I've seen it go up in value over time, though I will acknowledge the need for it can become niche if you have a high enough base speed. That isn't a leveling thing though. A fighter at level 1 gets the same value as a fighter at level 20. This is a big difference. And proficiency's are included because they are a fine ability and they retain usefulness over levels. Just like the Dragonborn's Resistance. Which is an ability they have that keeps usefulness over levels.

Then Feline Agility falls under the same not universally useful for everyone banner as some versions of Dragonbreath, since two base classes give speed bumps and multiple subclasses on other classes do as well.

Proficiencies should just really balance against resistance then, otherwise it becomes anything and everything races get against one thing Dragonborns do.

A Half-Orc Paladin who cries with their longsword gets 3d8 damage at level 1, level 5 and level 11. The general value of "critical harder" is still applicable.

The relative value of a single additional d8 (or whatever weapon die) is not universally good across all levels. It's great when it happens at first, then just fades into the mix as monster hp skyrockets in higher CRs, better on crit fishing builds, but that's very niche and unreliable.

Great. Mage Hand retains the same usefulness at level 17 that it had at level 1. That isn't damage, but you chose not to take a damaging cantrip, nothing I can do about that.

Eh? As levels increase more people in the party are likely to gain access to abilities that do similar, the Gith get a superior Mage Hand on top of other casting.

I disagree with you on one or two of those, but that doesn't matter. Because also on that list? The original Dragonborn Breath Weapon.

They changed it. They should probably change A LOT of those races. With Tasha's it is now a lot easier to not waste Proficiencies. That helps. A lot of those spells can be useful if planned around correctly. Some of those aren't primary abilities.

But, just because you can point out bad abilities doesn't change the idea that, if abilities shouldn't be bad, we should design them differently.

A large part of your point was (or it seemed to be) that there was so many good racial abilities that were universally good. So I tried to illustrate that isn't the case, again, I'm on board with buffing Dragon's Breath, just no this much.

And the reality is that by reprinting buffed versions of existing options, they're just intetionally causing fragmentation because they won't just go back and errata things. We've seen that. And they certainly won't reprint buffed options for everything that isn't up to par with the stand out abilties that come to mind.

Sleep. Magic Missile. There is a lot of great stuff at early levels. You just can't do a lot of it. At level 2 a Ranger with Dual-Wielding and Hunter's Mark is a blender. Monks are amazing. It just doesn't feel impressive because you are weak and 5th level is such a huge jump.

My point wasn't just that they don't get much, but that they can't do much of what the get. Like Sleep and Magic Missile on a caster with a few slots to last all day.

Rangers and Monks like you say are very good early on, they're also dependent on being in melee with their hp are so low insta death is a very real possibility, nevermind just going down when there's limited party resources to bring them back up. Balancing act.

IT might be a good change. I think they are shifting close to that point, but I'd need to look at all of it.

As part of our discussion I actually reread a bulk of the Tasha's options, it really just feels like they're trying to include prof bonus more in general rather than as a centralised resource mechanic. This is reinforced by some options having built in short rest recharge via say, Ki powered options on a Monk.

I'd love to see the version I proposed, it'd be more compelling damage wise, whilst not upsetting the base of the game as a whole.

I haven't seen any confusion. And we've addressed the other issues and why they needed fixed.

I didn't mean any confusion in a thread full of people that generally know the rules very well and enjoy optimising and discussing the game outside of table time. I'm talking about at the table in the moment when Dragonborn are involved, because the PHB version won't go away. You'll have two different Dragonborn using different die sizes for their breathweapons, nevermind the different shapes.

This wouldn't have been a problem if they had called them Draconians or whatever, but presenting to races named the same but with different yet similar traits is asking for trouble. At least Wildemount gave two distinct Dragonborn variants instead of a replacement.

Just pointing out man, if they are making this change fairly consistently, then it shouldn't be that big of a shock when they do it again. Feel free to voice your complaints, but this isn't a "why did they add this buff to Dragonborn" as much as it is "why are you moving away from 1/SR as a mechanic"

It's both, I don't like prof use in this way and UA is the time to voice it, but it is a buff on it's own and a buff multiplier when otehrs are involved.

I'll agree the monster design for Dragons could have used a lot of work. But, come on, don't try and sell me on the idea that Dragon's Breath isn't iconic in the extreme

I think they could have used more thematic inclusion of their element, but overall I don't mind Dragon design other than 'why on earth would this dragon land at any point and not just TPK the party from the air?

My main point was that being able to do something is enough for it to be an iconic tie in, Dragonborn can breathe like Dragons, which isn't really a particularly dragon thing to do in D&D, it's just that in the real world we associate that with dragons primarily.

And, as someone who recently had the harrowing experience of a dragon who recharged three times in a row... I can attest to why they made that difficult and rare.

Yup it's nasty and that is some bad luck you had there, ouch!

But that took an entire action to deal elemental damage that left itself open to various defenses. Things shift dramatically when it's alternating aoe and attacks used back to back with no luck involved, since your uses are a certainty.

Sure, it can happen. I've seen it too. People tend to overvalue damage though, so I've seen a lot more with dueling.

This really just highlights that none of our experiences are universal, which matters when panning something hard like the PHB breath.

*Snipping a lot, these responses are getting too big*

Yeah that's fair enough

Average of 26.5 to one creature, average of 13.5 to the others (If I remember the level correctly)

I think that's right, either way... how is that midtier damage?

"The fighter might use another iconic and powerful ability to cool things with it"

Yeah, I know. But if the fighter is dropping their single action surge and two of their daily breath weapons, I'd sure hope it was an impressive display. Or hey, maybe they drop a daily ability, a daily resource and their action surge. Again, shouldn't that be rather impressive?

Action Surge is powerful. We know this. A high-level Eldritch Knight (or a slightly lower one with a wand) can fireball, action surge, Fireball. That is also impressive.

Yes we know this, we also know that it's a popular dip grab because it's so low level. One of the questions they should ask themselves when designing new things should be 'how will this interact with existing options?' and quite frankly Action Surge should be up there in one of the top concerns.

1) You can still dual-wield, you just can't do both the same turn

That feels nitpicky, I would hope you would know that taking a cantrip as an option wouldn't lock a character out of a global rule. The fact is that if she uses the cantrip she took, she can't do other things that benefit her class/subclass. It's an opportunity cost and that's important for balance to me.

2) Yes, an enemy counter spelling you sucks. Still, please counter spell and cancel my at-will ability before I even roll. That just means you are out a 3rd level slot and don't have a counter spell for our actual spell casters. Enjoy the [Insert powerful spell here]

Counterspelling your sister in this case means that she cannot attack at all that turn, which as a Booming Blade/Sneak Attack user probably means a substantial dip in damage, it also means that she'd now have to burn her bonus on Cunning Action since she didn't attack to get her free disengage.

Either one is valid. I specifically chose a less optimized thing, because the logic behind choosing and using it is consistent. When it applies, you always use it. The thing you are complaining about with the Dragonborn.

The thing I'm complaining about is something always applying, which your example doesn't, your example was even a worse than standard option because of the stat discrepency, where as all characters will have a decent Con regardless (well not everyone, but sometimes people think it 's fun to dump Con, not a fan personally).

Also valid, but trust me, keeping that turret alive has a lot of value. Enough I went with a single damage cantrip when I played one.

It has a lot of hp for what it is and a high AC, how often was it actually being damaged? Was your game really aoe heavy or something?

But a lot of people didn't like it, because it wasn't a good option, and therefore they never did the thing.

And a lot of people just like doing the thing, that just swings in roundabouts.

Ah yes, all that classic fantasy art that includes yetis using their breath weapon. Just because something else uses it, doesn't mean that it isn't iconic for a different creature.

None of the other iconic dragon abilities are going to really fly. Blindsense would never get through. Flight won't make it. You might be able to do something with fear, but that is already a feat. There isn't a lot else except the scales. Which would be cool, but I can see why they didn't.

Dragons breathing is iconic in the real world, in D&D it isn't really a unique trait of theirs, that was my point.

I could see something along the lines of the Blindfighting style making it in or a fly speed, we already have two always on racial options for flight and they usually impose armor restrictions to compensate.

Personally I'd feel more epic flying around and swooping down on my enemies rather than sometimes using a breath weapon, though in my games I gave the Paladin wings and a buff to his weapon so *shrug*

P. G. Macer

2021-04-23, 04:58 PM

~Snip~

There are two points here I’ll bring up. I don’t have the time or the knowledge to argue against all of them, but I noticed some things.

First off, you compared the tabaxi’s Feline Agility to the PHB dragonborn’s breath weapon, claiming both were situational abilities not universally useful to all classes. You are technically correct, but contrary to what Futurama may say, technically correct is not the best kind of correct. In this case, there are degrees of how frequently applicable a trait is, and in my opinion and experience Feline Agility has far more opportunities to be usefully used than the PHB Breath Weapon, which past Tier 1 is generally a bottom-of-the-barrel option.

My second point is that while you point that breath weapons are not unique to dragons in D&D, and you acknowledge that breath weapons are iconic to dragons in the minds of most real-life people, you don’t seem to acknowledge the full implications of this. When new players come to 5e and want to play a dragon-person, the obvious thematic choice is the dragonborn, and the BW is what makes them dragon-y to a layperson, mores than 10 feet of blindsight would, and not as potentially game-breakingly powerful as winged flight. As someone whose first D&D PC ever was a dragonborn, the realization that the breath weapon was weaker than Burning Hands in Tier 1 was deflating. The increased usage and die size make it into more useful territory, and besides possibly your TCoE bladesinger example, isn’t so powerful that cheesy combinations exist.

Gotta go for now.

MaxWilson

2021-04-23, 05:55 PM

And the reality is that by reprinting buffed versions of existing options, they're just intetionally causing fragmentation because they won't just go back and errata things. We've seen that. And they certainly won't reprint buffed options for everything that isn't up to par with the stand out abilties that come to mind.

(1) The new devs have shown that they are willing to change things in errata. New verisons of Xanathar's will have nerfed Healing Spirit. New printings of SCAG will have the Tasha's Bladesinger in it.

(2) Errata doesn't decrease fragmentation, it actually increases it. Now you have to talk about whether you're using SCAG Bladesinger (original) or SCAG Bladesinger (2021 edition).

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-23, 06:39 PM

(1) The new devs have shown that they are willing to change things in errata. New verisons of Xanathar's will have nerfed Healing Spirit. New printings of SCAG will have the Tasha's Bladesinger in it.

(2) Errata doesn't decrease fragmentation, it actually increases it. Now you have to talk about whether you're using SCAG Bladesinger (original) or SCAG Bladesinger (2021 edition).

I believe it was also you (I know it was someone here) that noted when Xanathar's was printed that it had a different wording for Swashbuckler that has a significant impact on their ranged viability, was that ever changed?

So, so true on that errata. There are errata that were made before I'd even begun playing DND that I see cause some issue even today, unarmed strikes anyone?

MaxWilson

2021-04-23, 09:06 PM

I believe it was also you (I know it was someone here) that noted when Xanathar's was printed that it had a different wording for Swashbuckler that has a significant impact on their ranged viability, was that ever changed?

So, so true on that errata. There are errata that were made before I'd even begun playing DND that I see cause some issue even today, unarmed strikes anyone?

The SCAG errata (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SCAG-Errata.pdf) do not change the SCAG Swashbuckler. The SCAG Swashbuckler, unlike the Xanathar's Swashbuckler, continues to have the ability to sneak attack via Rakish Audacity even for targets more than 5' away (i.e. SCAG Swashbuckler is a much better archer than Xanathar's Swashbuckler).

I wish they'd update that stupid sentence in the DMG about "6-8 medium or hard" encounters per day (or a greater number of more difficult encounters) as a guideline. As you may know, that sentence was accurate and matched the table when the Basic Rules were originally written (v0.1), but by v0.2 the table had been updated to relabel those formerly-medium/hard encounters as easy/medium. (That is, ceilings in the table were changed to floors.) But the sentence was not updated, so now the table and the text don't match, and everyone who actually does the math comes to different conclusions than those who just read the paragraph, and it causes controversy.

They need to just update the text to say "6-8 easy or medium", or else do the math and say "4-6 medium or hard".

Chaosmancer

2021-04-24, 11:12 AM

I honestly tried to work up the energy to respond to most of this but... I just don't have it in me this weekend. So, highlight reel on the parts I could bring myself to respond to. Sorry that I'm just... exhausted.

I didn't mean any confusion in a thread full of people that generally know the rules very well and enjoy optimising and discussing the game outside of table time. I'm talking about at the table in the moment when Dragonborn are involved, because the PHB version won't go away. You'll have two different Dragonborn using different die sizes for their breathweapons, nevermind the different shapes.

This wouldn't have been a problem if they had called them Draconians or whatever, but presenting to races named the same but with different yet similar traits is asking for trouble. At least Wildemount gave two distinct Dragonborn variants instead of a replacement.

We have like fifteen different types of elves. Having multiple dragonborn isn't that confusing. Anyone who can handle building a dungeons and dragons character themselves can figure out that there are multiple different dragonborn. Might even give them their own nicknames.

This is a non-issue.

I think they could have used more thematic inclusion of their element, but overall I don't mind Dragon design other than 'why on earth would this dragon land at any point and not just TPK the party from the air?

My main point was that being able to do something is enough for it to be an iconic tie in, Dragonborn can breathe like Dragons, which isn't really a particularly dragon thing to do in D&D, it's just that in the real world we associate that with dragons primarily.

And you'll notice that I didn't say "Iconic for the Dragons of the Worlds of Dungeons and Dragons." I said "Iconic for Dragons". So yes, in the real world, where people live and care about things like being iconic, dragons are iconic for breath weapons, like breathing fire. That is the point. Please stop trying to say that "well, yetis use breath weapons, so it isn't iconic for a dragon to breath fire."

Yup it's nasty and that is some bad luck you had there, ouch!

But that took an entire action to deal elemental damage that left itself open to various defenses. Things shift dramatically when it's alternating aoe and attacks used back to back with no luck involved, since your uses are a certainty.

Yes, a player ability is more reliable than a monster ability. This tends to be because players like to plan their turns, rather than just hoping to see.

This is design 101 of DnD man. Monsters have rolled recharges. Pretty much no player abilities do. We tried it once, and people hated it.

Counterspelling your sister in this case means that she cannot attack at all that turn, which as a Booming Blade/Sneak Attack user probably means a substantial dip in damage, it also means that she'd now have to burn her bonus on Cunning Action since she didn't attack to get her free disengage.

And the wizard can safely cast Hypnotic Pattern because the counterspell was used up on stopping an at-will ability.

Yes, it can happen, and that doesn't mean it is a bad thing for the party. Unless you specifically added an enemy with counterspell just to cancel the rogue's turn, and no other casters are present.

It has a lot of hp for what it is and a high AC, how often was it actually being damaged? Was your game really aoe heavy or something?

I actually never got the chance to use mending on it. Game only lasted a few sessions, but the DM hated that turret, because the temp hp single-handedly prevented the party from tpking multiple times over the few sessions. He started explicitly trying to target it to get rid of it because it was doing so much damage mitigation.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-24, 03:30 PM

First off, you compared the tabaxi’s Feline Agility to the PHB dragonborn’s breath weapon, claiming both were situational abilities not universally useful to all classes. You are technically correct, but contrary to what Futurama may say, technically correct is not the best kind of correct. In this case, there are degrees of how frequently applicable a trait is, and in my opinion and experience Feline Agility has far more opportunities to be usefully used than the PHB Breath Weapon, which past Tier 1 is generally a bottom-of-the-barrel option.

Then our experiences differ, the amount of times a player can't reach something aren't that frequent in my games overall for various reasons, and players that rely on mobility either get it from elsewhere or need a more reliable source of it than Feline Agility. As a floor the breath weapon is at least damage, where as often times there's just no need or benefit (there's even detriments) to moving too much.

This might be different if player speeds matter outside of combat, but they don't unless you choose to take it into consideration so *shrug*

My second point is that while you point that breath weapons are not unique to dragons in D&D, and you acknowledge that breath weapons are iconic to dragons in the minds of most real-life people, you don’t seem to acknowledge the full implications of this. When new players come to 5e and want to play a dragon-person, the obvious thematic choice is the dragonborn, and the BW is what makes them dragon-y to a layperson, mores than 10 feet of blindsight would, and not as potentially game-breakingly powerful as winged flight. As someone whose first D&D PC ever was a dragonborn, the realization that the breath weapon was weaker than Burning Hands in Tier 1 was deflating. The increased usage and die size make it into more useful territory, and besides possibly your TCoE bladesinger example, isn’t so powerful that cheesy combinations exist.

To be frank, the notions of new/uninitiated players shouldn't have a heavy influence on the game. My iconic impression of trolls is the burly turn to stone kind, that doesn't change the fact that in D&D they're hyper regenerating mutant creatures. I guarantee that when people think of the things dragons can do fly would come up as much as breathing fire, yet the dragonborn doesn't get a standard flight speed and they can breathe all kinds of things. D&D has existed long enough to move beyond it's inspirations, which means that the iconic expectations that people have of general fantasy won't match up. You want to be a dragon person, great, here's a Dragonborn. You want the firebreath to be more dragon like... You realise you're not actually a dragon right?

Iconic is a terrible argument for these changes.

(1) The new devs have shown that they are willing to change things in errata. New verisons of Xanathar's will have nerfed Healing Spirit. New printings of SCAG will have the Tasha's Bladesinger in it.

(2) Errata doesn't decrease fragmentation, it actually increases it. Now you have to talk about whether you're using SCAG Bladesinger (original) or SCAG Bladesinger (2021 edition).

I didn't know they were errata'ing SCAG and that bums me out, TCoE BS can go suck a lemon and won't see my games.

I agree that errata doesn't reduce fragmentation as standard, it's just a different kind of fragmentation that affects different people in different ways (primarily books users and people that don't refer to source material much).

I honestly tried to work up the energy to respond to most of this but... I just don't have it in me this weekend. So, highlight reel on the parts I could bring myself to respond to. Sorry that I'm just... exhausted.

Self care is more important than an internet discussion, get some good rest in, your body will thank you.

We have like fifteen different types of elves. Having multiple dragonborn isn't that confusing. Anyone who can handle building a dungeons and dragons character themselves can figure out that there are multiple different dragonborn. Might even give them their own nicknames.

This is a non-issue.

We have a lot of subraces for Elves, we don't really have an instance where there's two copies of the same Elf in player facing material.

The issue here is that you can be a Red Dragonborn and the only thing that determines your breath is the source. The name of the race, subchoices, and ability remain the same. That's what I'm talking about with confusion and you just don't get that with subraces, because they're called different things with different names abilities.

Even if they go back and errata the Dragonborn, as Max pointed out, that's just a different level of fragmentation (and inevitiably confusion).

And you'll notice that I didn't say "Iconic for the Dragons of the Worlds of Dungeons and Dragons." I said "Iconic for Dragons". So yes, in the real world, where people live and care about things like being iconic, dragons are iconic for breath weapons, like breathing fire. That is the point. Please stop trying to say that "well, yetis use breath weapons, so it isn't iconic for a dragon to breath fire."

Yeti was one of two examples I originally gave, my point is that there's no reason that real world people expecting full size dragons to do x should mean jack about a related race besides them being able to do it in some form.

This could just as easily be represented as:

Dragons can breath fire, so can a Dragonborn, the Dragonborns is weaker, but it's not a real dragon so that makes sense.

The iconic thing that links them beyond appearance is capability, not effectiveness.

Yes, a player ability is more reliable than a monster ability. This tends to be because players like to plan their turns, rather than just hoping to see.

This is design 101 of DnD man. Monsters have rolled recharges. Pretty much no player abilities do. We tried it once, and people hated it.

The entire point of what you replied to was that mixing breath with attacks changes things up mechanically and also shifts dragonborn futher away from dragons.

And the wizard can safely cast Hypnotic Pattern because the counterspell was used up on stopping an at-will ability.

Yes, it can happen, and that doesn't mean it is a bad thing for the party. Unless you specifically added an enemy with counterspell just to cancel the rogue's turn, and no other casters are present.

My point was that by using her cantrip, she left herself vulnerable to additional countermeasures whilst locking herself out of other things.

She's taking those risks, hoping for a higher payout in damage and control, but it's still a risk and opportunity cost.

Being able to sub out a single attack for a full power breath doesn't have that same opportunity cost, since the breath will pretty much always be better than a single attack (ignoring element choice here).

I actually never got the chance to use mending on it. Game only lasted a few sessions, but the DM hated that turret, because the temp hp single-handedly prevented the party from tpking multiple times over the few sessions. He started explicitly trying to target it to get rid of it because it was doing so much damage mitigation.

That sounds like a little bit of antagoism from the DM based on what you've said, personally I don't think that the time spent repairing a turret is worth it, but that may change in a game where a DM is so targeted on it.

Segev

2021-04-24, 05:12 PM

Dork_Forge

2021-04-24, 05:23 PM

I'll be honest, I don't see how feline agility isn't extremely reliable. All it takes to recharge it is not moving for one round. It's guaranteed-available at least once per combat, and probably multiple times if you have any sort of stick-and-move strategy.

The ability has a short recharge, but the amount of times crazy high speed is relevant is highly table dependent and ime doesn't really come up that often. This is reinforced by two classes having built in speed bumps and numerous subclasses also giving speed bumps.

If you were building a strategy around mobility and ti wasn't just 'I can run really fast sometimes!' I can't see the Tabaxi being a top choice based on Feline Agility.

Kane0

2021-04-24, 05:32 PM

The ability has a short recharge, but the amount of times crazy high speed is relevant is highly table dependent and ime doesn't really come up that often. This is reinforced by two classes having built in speed bumps and numerous subclasses also giving speed bumps.

If you were building a strategy around mobility and ti wasn't just 'I can run really fast sometimes!' I can't see the Tabaxi being a top choice based on Feline Agility.

In your estimation how good is it compared to the orcs aggressive?

Dork_Forge

2021-04-24, 06:40 PM

In your estimation how good is it compared to the orcs aggressive?

Far better, it doesn't require a bonus and isn't contingent on moving towards an enemy. If Feline Agility took a bonus it would lose a lot of its appeal, especially since it'd no longer combo with bonus action dashing.

MaxWilson

2021-04-24, 06:46 PM

The ability has a short recharge, but the amount of times crazy high speed is relevant is highly table dependent and ime doesn't really come up that often. This is reinforced by two classes having built in speed bumps and numerous subclasses also giving speed bumps.

If you were building a strategy around mobility and ti wasn't just 'I can run really fast sometimes!' I can't see the Tabaxi being a top choice based on Feline Agility.

Tabaxi + grappling + Psi Knight flying + Spike Growth is extremely interesting.

P. G. Macer

2021-04-24, 06:50 PM

Then our experiences differ, the amount of times a player can't reach something aren't that frequent in my games overall for various reasons, and players that rely on mobility either get it from elsewhere or need a more reliable source of it than Feline Agility. As a floor the breath weapon is at least damage, where as often times there's just no need or benefit (there's even detriments) to moving too much.

This might be different if player speeds matter outside of combat, but they don't unless you choose to take it into consideration so *shrug*

To be frank, the notions of new/uninitiated players shouldn't have a heavy influence on the game. My iconic impression of trolls is the burly turn to stone kind, that doesn't change the fact that in D&D they're hyper regenerating mutant creatures. I guarantee that when people think of the things dragons can do fly would come up as much as breathing fire, yet the dragonborn doesn't get a standard flight speed and they can breathe all kinds of things. D&D has existed long enough to move beyond it's inspirations, which means that the iconic expectations that people have of general fantasy won't match up. You want to be a dragon person, great, here's a Dragonborn. You want the firebreath to be more dragon like... You realise you're not actually a dragon right?

Iconic is a terrible argument for these changes.

~Snip~.

I mentioned “other than flying” in my previous post, so the qualifier was there to begin with. Regardless of whether new/uninitiated players should have a heavy influence on D&D, it’s clear that they do, especially since 5e is attracting newcomers in droves. From what I’ve learned from other fellow forum-goers who are familiar with the D&D Next playtest, 5e was initially designed to attract 3.5e players who had abandoned D&D in the 4e era in favor of Pathfinder. Now that 5e has exploded in popularity, however, there is a significant profit incentive on WotC’s part to make things more newbie-friendly, and that applies to both mechanics and flavor (Another example of this is associating hobgoblins with the Fey in the previous UA, which is alien in D&D but familiar ground to outsiders; one of Shakespeare’s Puck/Robin Goodfellow’s aliases is Hobgoblin).

It’s also worth noting that the new breath weapon only is comparable to that of a true dragon’s at 17th level, the start of Tier 4, where PCs are de facto demigods, and even then the UA dragonborn’s breath weapon is only more or less on par in damage with a wyrmling’s (which comes up on top depends on which of the ten published wyrmlings you’re comparing it to), so for most of the game the new BW is still weaker than an actual dragon’s, and late-game is equal to that of the youngest category of true dragons. Granted, this analysis doesn’t take into account frequency of use, as PB uses will almost certainly outnumber a recharge die, but for most campaigns this will not matter, and it’s something of a wash IMHO.

animewatcha

2021-04-26, 03:20 AM

I looked at this thread time to time. Haven't noticed anyone trying (could be wrong), but what about dragonborn monk with the subclass being the draconic one?

Kane0

2021-04-26, 04:52 AM

Yeah that was mentioned at least once, you can spam breath attacks to a DM-aggrivating degree

Chaosmancer

2021-04-26, 09:20 AM

We have a lot of subraces for Elves, we don't really have an instance where there's two copies of the same Elf in player facing material.

The issue here is that you can be a Red Dragonborn and the only thing that determines your breath is the source. The name of the race, subchoices, and ability remain the same. That's what I'm talking about with confusion and you just don't get that with subraces, because they're called different things with different names abilities.

Even if they go back and errata the Dragonborn, as Max pointed out, that's just a different level of fragmentation (and inevitiably confusion).

Nope, there are three different versions of each of the Aernal Elves and Valenar elves from Eberron. Depends if you are using the Wayfarer's Guide, Rising from the Last War, or the PHB (I might be mixing in Exploring Eberron, so it might only be two, but the point still stands)

And yet, confusion isn't a big thing with those.

. Yeti was one of two examples I originally gave, my point is that there's no reason that real world people expecting full size dragons to do x should mean jack about a related race besides them being able to do it in some form.

This could just as easily be represented as:

Dragons can breath fire, so can a Dragonborn, the Dragonborns is weaker, but it's not a real dragon so that makes sense.

The iconic thing that links them beyond appearance is capability, not effectiveness.

And real dragons are much more effective. 60 ft cones dealing 10d6 damage are very different than a 15 ft cone dealing 3d8.

But you still want to be able to utilize it in combat more than once, maybe twice. Again, you have to remember that not everyone runs with 2 short rests per day. Also, losing a full action is a massive detriment to martial characters. These were the considerations, and since it was very possible for a Dragonborn to never use their breath weapon, because it wasn't effective, there was no appearance of them being related to dragons. They might as well have been Lizardfolk, because they didn't do anything draconic.

The entire point of what you replied to was that mixing breath with attacks changes things up mechanically and also shifts dragonborn futher away from dragons.

But again, as I said, we don't use rolled recharges on player abilities. We tried that, it didn't work. But, at the same time, dragons can use their breath weapons more than once per short rest. They get it back about once every three turns on average. This is a decent compromise.

. My point was that by using her cantrip, she left herself vulnerable to additional countermeasures whilst locking herself out of other things.

She's taking those risks, hoping for a higher payout in damage and control, but it's still a risk and opportunity cost.

Being able to sub out a single attack for a full power breath doesn't have that same opportunity cost, since the breath will pretty much always be better than a single attack (ignoring element choice here).

And what you are calling being "vulnerable to additional countermeasures" I see as "bait for weakening the enemies resources."

I will never understand this insistence that having an at-will option somehow locks you out of other things you could possibly do, when you could just choose not to use the at-will option. And using Dragon Breath also locks you out of other options. You can't attack and cast a spell. You can't attack and dodge. You can't attack and dash. Unless you are a class who can do those things. And take a rogue, you have to give up sneak attack to use dragon breath. That's a big ask.

Is a dragon breath generally better than a single attack? Sure, maybe. When you have three uses of it are you going to use it every single round of combat? No, you are going to save it for the most effective use. It is only that now you aren't trying to balance that as a martial with giving up everything else.

That sounds like a little bit of antagoism from the DM based on what you've said, personally I don't think that the time spent repairing a turret is worth it, but that may change in a game where a DM is so targeted on it.

He had a love-hate with it.

It was clearly the most powerful thing in the party, because we talked and about it, and we acknowledged that without a dedicated healer, a lack of stealth, and running face first into half a dozen encounters between Short Rests it was nearly solely responsible for keeping the party alive.

Which he appreciated, because the game would have been over the second session without it, but he hated it as well, because it was clearly so powerful that if we had had even a slightly different party make-up, we could have been unbeatable (in his opinion.)

Segev

2021-04-26, 10:33 AM

Yeah that was mentioned at least once, you can spam breath attacks to a DM-aggrivating degree

I guess if the DM has a lot of next-to-no-hp mooks that bunch up together or line up single-file this is a problem?

Dork_Forge

2021-04-26, 11:10 AM

Nope, there are three different versions of each of the Aernal Elves and Valenar elves from Eberron. Depends if you are using the Wayfarer's Guide, Rising from the Last War, or the PHB (I might be mixing in Exploring Eberron, so it might only be two, but the point still stands)

And yet, confusion isn't a big thing with those.

This is wrong for many reasons:

-There's no shared material between WGtE and RftLW that differs in anyway, the former was updated when RftLW was released, having an older download of a digital product that was always going to be updated is not the same as missing an errata for a main book
-No idea about Exploring Eberron, but it's 3rd party so doesn't matter
-Eberron Elves are literally just PHB Elves with regional names

The only confusion that could happen here is 'what's my Wood Elf called in this game again?' Which I can certainly see happening but also doesn't really matter.

And real dragons are much more effective. 60 ft cones dealing 10d6 damage are very different than a 15 ft cone dealing 3d8.

Yes, because they're meant to challenge entire parties

But you still want to be able to utilize it in combat more than once, maybe twice. Again, you have to remember that not everyone runs with 2 short rests per day. Also, losing a full action is a massive detriment to martial characters. These were the considerations, and since it was very possible for a Dragonborn to never use their breath weapon, because it wasn't effective, there was no appearance of them being related to dragons. They might as well have been Lizardfolk, because they didn't do anything draconic.

Not getting in the short rests is only a problem if the number of encounters remains the same, which I doubt would be the case. If you have less uses of an ability, but you also have less encounters, then eh?

The Lizardfolk comparison is very odd to me, they also have resistance and more closely resmeble dragons then Lizardfolk do. Lizardfolk's main things are biting people, crafting things out of creatures and being somewhat amphibious.

But again, as I said, we don't use rolled recharges on player abilities. We tried that, it didn't work. But, at the same time, dragons can use their breath weapons more than once per short rest. They get it back about once every three turns on average. This is a decent compromise.

I didn't say anything about the rolls that time, I was talking about how actual dragons have to choose what the do not mix and match, though on the recharge front whilst it might average out: The fact remains that a Dragonborn in this UA can choose to dump the max number of uses back to back, player certainty aside that is a far cry that wasn't a problem with SR recharge.

And before the prof thing comes up, again making the damage die = prof would satisfy their new craze.

And what you are calling being "vulnerable to additional countermeasures" I see as "bait for weakening the enemies resources."

Then our opinoins greatly differ, since I count shutting out a high damage dealer for an entire round with a reaction a pretty good use of a slot.

I will never understand this insistence that having an at-will option somehow locks you out of other things you could possibly do, when you could just choose not to use the at-will option. And using Dragon Breath also locks you out of other options. You can't attack and cast a spell. You can't attack and dodge. You can't attack and dash. Unless you are a class who can do those things. And take a rogue, you have to give up sneak attack to use dragon breath. That's a big ask.

That's... the point. It's a choice you have to make, you either do BB or regular attack in this instance, the point about the UA is that EA characters (of which there's a lot) no longer have to choose. They can attack (throwing maneuvers, Smites, insert ability of choice here) whilst still breathing. This is worse in specific cases (Gloom Stalker round 1, Bladesinger and so on) but in general I just don't think it's good for the game. Especially with book production ramping up in a major way, powercreep that interacts with it is just inevitible.

Is a dragon breath generally better than a single attack? Sure, maybe. When you have three uses of it are you going to use it every single round of combat? No, you are going to save it for the most effective use. It is only that now you aren't trying to balance that as a martial with giving up everything else.

If you can clip two creatures with it, it's pretty much going to be an upgrade for EA classes, if there's a resistance at play to weapon damage, it's a big boon.

I'm not saying that a player will dump it all in the first combat, but I can certainly see it becoming a new nova tactic.

He had a love-hate with it.

It was clearly the most powerful thing in the party, because we talked and about it, and we acknowledged that without a dedicated healer, a lack of stealth, and running face first into half a dozen encounters between Short Rests it was nearly solely responsible for keeping the party alive.

Which he appreciated, because the game would have been over the second session without it, but he hated it as well, because it was clearly so powerful that if we had had even a slightly different party make-up, we could have been unbeatable (in his opinion.)

Eh, personally I'd have just messed with player positioning or used creatures that don't care about current hp (one of my groups has a Glamour Bard, so I got used to crazy amounts of temp hp pretty quickly).

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-26, 11:29 AM

Dork_Forge

2021-04-26, 11:49 AM

On the bolded (your own bolding) this actually isn't true. Aereni Elves trade weapon proficiencies for expertise in a skill or tool. Valenar also have different weapon proficiency than the PHB counterparts.

...Where? I'm looking at my copy and the entry on them on page 20/21 is nothing but fluff and the Double Bladed Scimitar stuff, I can't even find that googling.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-26, 01:55 PM

...Where? I'm looking at my copy and the entry on them on page 20/21 is nothing but fluff and the Double Bladed Scimitar stuff, I can't even find that googling.

Ah, I see the issue. It's a variant from Wayfinder's guide. DNDBeyond doesn't list it that way, so I assumed it saw print that way.

Dork_Forge

2021-04-26, 02:02 PM

Ah, I see the issue. It's a variant from Wayfinder's guide. DNDBeyond doesn't list it that way, so I assumed it saw print that way.

I'm guessing it's an artifact from earlier Eberron UA in 5e, Eberron content morphed significantly before it finally got realeased (RIP Warforge subraces).

But the point I made about confusion still stands, the closest I can think of are the Tieflings, but at least they have unique names and different abilities.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-04-26, 02:10 PM

I'm guessing it's an artifact from earlier Eberron UA in 5e, Eberron content morphed significantly before it finally got realeased (RIP Warforge subraces).

But the point I made about confusion still stands, the closest I can think of are the Tieflings, but at least they have unique names and different abilities.

Well, it would fall into the first bullet point of your previous comment. This is a difference between WGtE and RFtLW. The entries are near identical, but this footnote only exists in the former.

It could be a mistake from the DND Beyond team that it was never removed, but every other WGtE race was updated or archived.

Kane0

2021-04-26, 05:41 PM

I guess if the DM has a lot of next-to-no-hp mooks that bunch up together or line up single-file this is a problem?

Eh, more the sheer number of saves you can potentially force during your turn slowing things down. Kinda like that guy playing a fighter/sorcerer that twins fireballs then action surges for twin ag scorchers. Steve.

Or a hasted, action surging fighter 20 using one of those homebrew rules that doubles your number of attacks when TWFing. Won't be doing that again.

Chaosmancer

2021-04-26, 05:52 PM

This is wrong for many reasons:

-There's no shared material between WGtE and RftLW that differs in anyway, the former was updated when RftLW was released, having an older download of a digital product that was always going to be updated is not the same as missing an errata for a main book
-No idea about Exploring Eberron, but it's 3rd party so doesn't matter
-Eberron Elves are literally just PHB Elves with regional names

The only confusion that could happen here is 'what's my Wood Elf called in this game again?' Which I can certainly see happening but also doesn't really matter.

As @ProsecutorGodot points out, there is an actual rule difference between the Aerine Elf from Wayfinders and the one from Rising. It turns out that I was thinking of the EE elf to make up the third, and also also, that was the Wayfinders version.

But, they are different, and have been for years. No real confusion. Now, whether that is because no one bothers with the Wayfinder's version and everyone recognizes EE for being 3rd party? Possible. But both Wayfinders and Rising are official DnD products, and this difference exists between them. With no confusion like what you claim would happen if Chromatic Dragonborn show up next to Dragonbo

Not getting in the short rests is only a problem if the number of encounters remains the same, which I doubt would be the case. If you have less uses of an ability, but you also have less encounters, then eh?

Could be less, could be more. I've seen both happen at the table.

The Lizardfolk comparison is very odd to me, they also have resistance and more closely resmeble dragons then Lizardfolk do. Lizardfolk's main things are biting people, crafting things out of creatures and being somewhat amphibious.

Who cares what they look like? Not really that crazy of a question. Both are scaley, have snouts with fangs, and a tail. Unless you are holding up a picture of your character next to your head every time you talk, those factors are going to be the ones highlighted... and those could apply to either race.

Resistance might come up, but it also might not. And you can't generally force it to come up. And, look at that list of lizardfolk abilities. Two of them are situational and also might not come up. So.. one of the giant lizard people with sharp fanged mouths can bite people and the other can't? That isn't a big difference. Especially if you only have one of them in the party, and the Dragonborn is the one that feels lacking.

I didn't say anything about the rolls that time, I was talking about how actual dragons have to choose what the do not mix and match, though on the recharge front whilst it might average out: The fact remains that a Dragonborn in this UA can choose to dump the max number of uses back to back, player certainty aside that is a far cry that wasn't a problem with SR recharge.

And before the prof thing comes up, again making the damage die = prof would satisfy their new craze.

They have to chose because dragon's only have two options. 1) Breath weapon 2) Full attacks sequence plus fear. Oh, and all their legendary actions. And, as the DM, I'm not terribly sad that I can only have one of those at a time. The Breath Weapon is devastating against a party. If I could Breath weapon and Claw/Claw it would be far too much damage at a party in one round.

But... so what if the Dragonborn player can do this three rounds in a row? Or four? If they are doing that clearly this is a devastatingly hard fight. They are going to feel amazing, the game isn't unbalanced by it clearly, because they didn't win after doing it the second time, and it is going to be an awesome story to tell.

Unless you think they are just going to use them to use them, wasting them when it isn't ideal to do so, like a fighter who action surges the first round of the first fight after every rest.

That's... the point. It's a choice you have to make, you either do BB or regular attack in this instance, the point about the UA is that EA characters (of which there's a lot) no longer have to choose. They can attack (throwing maneuvers, Smites, insert ability of choice here) whilst still breathing. This is worse in specific cases (Gloom Stalker round 1, Bladesinger and so on) but in general I just don't think it's good for the game. Especially with book production ramping up in a major way, powercreep that interacts with it is just inevitible.

And none of them can cast spells. No uses of any action other than attacking. Of which there are a lot. This isn't that big of a boost for half the classes in the game. And the other half are still making a choice. It is an easier choice, sure, if they feel the need to use their breath weapon they can do that and attack. But that isn't a problem. Heck, you have Eldritch Knights who struggle to cast spells because losing out on a full round of attacks is devastating. To the point that they were designed to get a free attack when casting a leveled spell. And their ability to make a bonus action attack when casting a cantrip is generally viewed as... anemic.

Fighter full round attacks are valuable. I have no problem with WoTC recognizing this.

If you can clip two creatures with it, it's pretty much going to be an upgrade for EA classes, if there's a resistance at play to weapon damage, it's a big boon.

I'm not saying that a player will dump it all in the first combat, but I can certainly see it becoming a new nova tactic.

Shouldn't it be an upgrade? I'd rather it be an upgrade than a downgrade. And, while you might not agree, plenty of people felt that the original version was a full downgrade for Extra Attack classes. It was bad damage in a situational basis that simply wasn't worth it to them to use. That has changed, and I'm ecstatic for it.