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Nerth
2021-04-14, 01:59 PM
First post! I had a couple ideas for filling out the dead levels of a fighter.

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: The Fighter


Fighter Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Character Features
Class Features
Fighting Style


1st
+1
+2
+0
+0
1st feat
Fighter's expertise, fighting style, Weapon Focus
1 feat


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+0

Armored athletics
2 feats


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+1
2nd feat
Grit
2 feats


4th
+4
+4
+1
+1
1st ASI
Weapon specialization +1
3 feats


5th
+5
+4
+1
+1

Fighting style improvisation 1/day (1 feat)
3 feats


6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
+2
3rd feat

4 feats


7th
+7/+2
+5
+2
+2

Improved grit
4 feats


8th
+8/+3
+6
+2
+2
2nd ASI
Weapon specialization +2
5 feats


9th
+9/+4
+6
+3
+3
4th feat

5 feats


10th
+10/+5
+7
+3
+3

Fighting style improvisation 2/day
6 feats


11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+3
+3

Greater grit
6 feats


12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+4
5th feat, 3rd ASI
Weapon specialization +3
7 feats


13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+4

<dead level>
7 feats


14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+4


8 feats


15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+5
+5
6th feat
Fighting style improvisation 3/day
8 feats


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+5
+5
4th ASI
Weapon specialization +4
9 feats


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+5

Fighting style improvisation (2 feats)
9 feats


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+6
7th feat

10 feats


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+6

<dead level>
10 feats


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+6
5th ASI
Fighting style improvisation 4/day, weapon specialization +5
11 feats



Class Features
As a fighter, you get the following class features.

Fighter’s Expertise (Ex): You can choose to treat any of your ability scores as 12 + your fighter level (to a maximum 22 at 10th level) for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of any combat feat. (For example, a 1st-level fighter will qualify for the Dodge feat even if he doesn’t have a Dexterity score of 13.)

Fighting Style (Ex): You can create your own fighting style by learning and preparing fighter bonus feats. To learn or prepare a feat, you must meet its prerequisites.

You can learn any number of feats. Before you begin play, you learn two fighter bonus feats of your choice. Whenever you take a new fighter level, you learn a new fighter bonus feat.

However, you can only prepare a limited number of feats. At 1st level, you can prepare one fighter bonus feat. You can prepare an additional feat at 2nd level and every even fighter level thereafter (4th, 6th, and so on). You’re effectively taking these feats, and you get their benefits.

By training for 1 hour, you can prepare different feats from your list of feats known. You’re effectively replacing the old feat with a new one. You can’t replace a feat you need to meet the prerequisites for your character options, and you can only replace a feat you need to meet the prerequisites for another prepared feat if you replace both of them at the same time. You can prepare a feat at the same time that you prepare its prerequisite. You can train any number of times per day.

Weapon Focus: You get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Armored Athletics (Ex): By 2nd level, you have constantly trained in armor until it begins to feel like a second skin. Reduce the armor check penalty to your Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Tumble checks by an amount equal to your fighter level (to a minimum penalty of 0). Reduce this penalty to your Swim checks by double this amount instead. When you reduce all armor check penalties for a suit of medium or heavy armor to 0, you are no longer slowed while wearing it.

In addition, you can sleep in medium or heavy armor without becoming fatigued the next day.

Grit (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, you can shrug off conditions that would hinder you in combat. If you would become dazzled, fatigued, sickened, or shaken, you can ignore the effects of that condition for a number of rounds equal to ½ your fighter level + your Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). You’re affected by the condition as normal after these rounds, but these rounds count toward the condition’s duration.

You can use this feature only once per spell or effect causing the condition, and only when you would first be affected by that condition. The duration of grit doesn’t stack. (For example, an 8th-level fighter with a Constitution score of 16 can use grit for 7 total rounds. He can’t use it to ignore a permanent dazzled condition. If an enemy is casting the flare spell every round on its turn, the fighter can ignore the first 7 rounds of the dazzled condition, starting from the first Fortitude save he failed.)

Weapon Specialization (Ex): Starting at 4th level, your skill at wielding the weapons you have chosen with the Weapon Focus feat improves.

You also get a +1 bonus on damage rolls with any weapon you have chosen with the Weapon Focus feat, and a +1 bonus on opposed Strength checks to avoid being disarmed. At 8th level and every four fighter levels thereafter (12th, 16th, and so on), your bonuses on attack rolls, damage rolls, and opposed Strength checks to avoid being disarmed all increase by +1. If you have taken the Weapon Focus feat multiple times, you get the benefits of weapon specialization at your current fighter level for all of them, regardless of the level you took that feat.

Designer's Note: This replaces Weapon Specialization (fighter level 4th), Greater Weapon Focus (fighter level 8th), and Greater Weapon Specialization (fighter level 12th) for the purpose of converting pre-existing feats or character options that have one of these feats as a prerequisite.

Fighting Style Improvisation (Ex): As a free action on your turn at 5th level, you can adapt your fighting style on the spot to overcome the challenge in front of you. You get the benefits of a feat you have learned until the end of the combat encounter. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat, but you don’t have to prepare this feat in advance.

You can use fighting style improvisation once per encounter, and only once per day. At 9th level and every four fighter levels thereafter, you can use it another time per day. At 13th level, you get the benefits of two feats instead. You can get the benefits of a feat at the same time that you get the benefits of its prerequisite.

Improved Grit (Ex): At 7th level, you can shrug off harsher conditions. If you would become blinded, you can choose to act as if you were dazzled instead. You can also replace exhausted with fatigued, nauseated with sickened, frightened with shaken, or dazed with staggered. You cannot use your grit feature on the new condition. Otherwise, this feature functions as grit.

Greater Grit (Ex): By 11th level, you can shrug off even the most debilitating of conditions. If you would become confused, paralyzed, petrified, or stunned, you can choose to act as if you were staggered instead. If you would become panicked, you can act as if you were frightened instead. You cannot use your grit or improved grit feature on the new condition. Otherwise, this feature functions as grit and improved grit.

Table: Grit Summary



3rd level [1]
7th level [2]
11th level [3]


Ignore condition
Dazzled
Blinded
— [4]


Ignore condition
Fatigued
Exhausted



Ignore condition
Sickened
Nauseated



Ignore condition
Shaken
Frightened
Panicked



Staggered [5]
Dazed





Staggered [5]
Confused




Staggered [5]
Paralyzed




Staggered [5]
Petrified




Staggered [5]
Stunned


[1] Grit reduces these conditions by one step to the left.
[2] Improved grit reduces these conditions by one step to the left.
[3] Greater grit reduces these conditions by one step to the left.
[4] Grit, improved grit, and greater grit have no effect on entries of “—.”
[5] For a higher-powered or -fantasy campaign, consider replacing entries of "Staggered" with "Ignore condition."

Albanymusicfund
2021-04-14, 03:38 PM
I have to say. I very much like this idea. I don't have much feedback besides complimenting you on this. Maybe it might be better if the jump in eleventh was much stronger. I wonder if there was a way to make grit a suitable way to prevent spells like forcecage. Where unless the fighter has a bow (and he might not have made his build around it), he's kind of screwed. Maybe it would be cool if at a certain level he could "break out" of the cage or something like that.

Nerth
2021-04-16, 07:32 AM
I have to say. I very much like this idea. I don't have much feedback besides complimenting you on this. Maybe it might be better if the jump in eleventh was much stronger. I wonder if there was a way to make grit a suitable way to prevent spells like forcecage. Where unless the fighter has a bow (and he might not have made his build around it), he's kind of screwed. Maybe it would be cool if at a certain level he could "break out" of the cage or something like that.
Thank you for the compliment! For 11th level I picked conditions that would otherwise prevent you from taking any actions, but I'm not sure if grit should reduce those conditions to staggered or ignore them outright. I've thought of a couple new ideas for the fighter:


Armored Athletics (Ex): By 2nd level, you have constantly trained in armor until it begins to feel like a second skin. Reduce the armor check penalty to your Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Tumble checks by an amount equal to your fighter level (to a minimum penalty of 0). Reduce this penalty to your Swim checks by double this amount instead.

In addition, you can sleep in medium or heavy armor without becoming fatigued the next day.

Maybe a fighter could have Vancian spellcasting for fighter bonus feats. I imagine the following replacing their normal bonus feats. Fighting style improvisation specifically would let any fighter in a forcecage pull out a bow, grab Point-Blank Shot or Precise Shot, and shoot at the pesky wizard.


Fighting Style (Ex): You can create your own fighting style by learning and preparing fighter bonus feats. To learn or prepare a feat, you must meet its prerequisites.

You can learn any number of feats. Before you begin play, you learn two fighter bonus feats of your choice. Whenever you take a new fighter level, you learn a new fighter bonus feat.

However, you can only prepare a limited number of feats. At 1st level, you can prepare one fighter bonus feat. You can prepare an additional feat at 2nd level and every even fighter level thereafter (4th, 6th, and so on). You’re effectively taking these feats, and you get their benefits.

By training for 1 hour, you can prepare different feats from your list of feats known. You’re effectively replacing the old feat with a new one. You can’t replace a feat you need to meet the prerequisites for your character options, and you can only replace a feat you need to meet the prerequisites for another prepared feat if you replace both of them at the same time. You can prepare a feat at the same time that you prepare its prerequisite. You can train any number of times per day.

Fighting Style Improvisation (Ex): As a free action on your turn at 5th level, you can adapt your fighting style on the spot to overcome the challenge in front of you. You get the benefits of a feat you have learned until the end of the combat encounter. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat, but you don’t have to prepare this feat in advance.

You can use fighting style improvisation once per encounter, and only once per day. At 9th level and every four fighter levels thereafter, you can use it another time per day. At 13th level, you get the benefits of two feats instead. You can get the benefits of a feat at the same time that you get the benefits of its prerequisite.

Nerth
2021-04-16, 11:16 AM
Maybe a more direct approach for a fighter to take versus spells? I've been skimming through Complete Warrior and the tactical feats look really cool.


Spellbreaker (Tactical)
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 1 rank, fighter level 8th; either Magical Aptitude or Skill Focus (Spellcraft).

Benefit: The Spellbreaker feat enables the use of two tactical maneuvers.

Cleanse Self: To use this maneuver, you must designate a non-harmless magical spell affecting you have identified with a successful Spellcraft check. You can attempt a Fortitude saving throw against a DC equal to 11 + the spell’s caster level.

If you succeed, that spell is dispelled as if you had cast a successful targeted dispel magic spell on yourself. At fighter level 14th, this feat functions as the greater dispel magic spell instead. If you fail, nothing happens. You can only use this feat once per spell.

Spell Sunder: To use this maneuver, you must designate a magical spell that isn’t affecting you, which you have identified with a successful Spellcraft check. As a standard action, you can attempt a melee attack roll against the spell’s AC, which is equal to 11 + the spell’s caster level.

If you succeed, that spell is dispelled as if you had cast a successful targeted dispel magic spell on it. At fighter level 14th, this feat functions as the greater dispel magic spell instead. If you fail, nothing happens. You can only use this feat once per spell.

Special: A fighter may take Spellbreaker as one of his fighter bonus feats. The fighter must succeed on the Spellcraft check himself; he can receive aid from allies, but he can't use his wizard ally's Spellcraft check result as if it were his own.

Albanymusicfund
2021-04-16, 11:34 AM
Maybe a fighter could have Vancian spellcasting for fighter bonus feats. I imagine the following replacing their normal bonus feats. Fighting style improvisation specifically would let any fighter in a forcecage pull out a bow, grab Point-Blank Shot or Precise Shot, and shoot at the pesky wizard.

WOW! This is definitely the way to go! I'd think I'd argue for a little more leniency than only changing the feats once a day. WOTC described that the Fighter should be adaptable/combat-ready in every situation. Maybe making the feat swap a sort of full-round action/standard action to really allow Fighters to do this on the fly. Maybe we should make that a later ability when you level. The time required for the style to be swapped levels up as you level up. From full round to standard action to move action and then maybe at level 17 it's a free action.

Albanymusicfund
2021-04-16, 11:36 AM
Maybe a more direct approach for a fighter to take versus spells? I've been skimming through Complete Warrior and the tactical feats look really cool.

This seems awesome! My only concern is that fighters don't get spellcraft as a class skill. So maybe you'd have to ask your DM to make it one so you don't dump 16 points to finally accomplish this feat.

Nerth
2021-04-17, 08:26 AM
WOW! This is definitely the way to go! I'd think I'd argue for a little more leniency than only changing the feats once a day. WOTC described that the Fighter should be adaptable/combat-ready in every situation. Maybe making the feat swap a sort of full-round action/standard action to really allow Fighters to do this on the fly. Maybe we should make that a later ability when you level. The time required for the style to be swapped levels up as you level up. From full round to standard action to move action and then maybe at level 17 it's a free action.

Thanks for your feedback! So I intended for the fighting style feature to let you change up your feats any number of times per day by spending 1 hour, and at later levels you can add feats on the fly as a free action using the fighting style improvisation feature. It sounds like I have some work to do in making my homebrew clearer to read.


This seems awesome! My only concern is that fighters don't get spellcraft as a class skill. So maybe you'd have to ask your DM to make it one so you don't dump 16 points to finally accomplish this feat.

You're right that the requirement feels a little harsh. I might change it to "Prerequisites: Spellcraft 1 rank, fighter level 8th; either Skill Focus (Spellcraft) or Magical Aptitude." That way, as long as you have one of those skill feats (which you'll need to hit that Spellcraft check to identify the spell you want to dispel!), you should be able to get this feat.

JNAProductions
2021-04-17, 09:23 AM
Imma just leave this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!) here...

Grod did what is, in my opinion, a really cool Fighter remake. I'd recommend giving it a look, and see what inspires you from it!

Albanymusicfund
2021-04-17, 01:53 PM
You're right that the requirement feels a little harsh. I might change it to "Prerequisites: Spellcraft 1 rank, fighter level 8th; either Skill Focus (Spellcraft) or Magical Aptitude." That way, as long as you have one of those skill feats (which you'll need to hit that Spellcraft check to identify the spell you want to dispel!), you should be able to get this feat.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable fix for it. I'm looking forward to seeing if this goes any further because I am really enjoying it!

Morphic tide
2021-04-17, 06:51 PM
Imma just leave this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!) here...

Grod did what is, in my opinion, a really cool Fighter remake. I'd recommend giving it a look, and see what inspires you from it!
It's a cool concept, I'll admit, but it absolutely annihilates the premise of the Fighter as being the simplest and most direct front-line combatant. You end up needing to fill out seven different sets of ten feats, choose an actual permanent subclass with each having a different key attribute, go over another option list based on but not actually entirely tied to the subclasses, track a dicepool, and use the handful of locked-in features. It also explicitly devours the Barbarian and is practically designed to outmode the default Ranger.

Personally, I like the Fighting Style used here over how Grod did it, as the granularity enables a newbie to experiment with their feat selections to figure out what are the important core functions versus the niche utilities or trap options, because they get enough to throw at the wall they're unlikely to actually miss out on must-have options. It's the same Fighter Bonus Feat list, they just get to use more of it, and that it's virtually all combat output makes it clear the point is to have a variety of specialized combat routines.

On principal, I feel that any Fighter fix should primarily be a fix of the feat system to result in the Fighter becoming a perfectly functional generic class, and completely axe all the Paladin-level subsystem access classes as feat fodder. Purge the traps, shorten the chains, widen the trees. Make it so that you're "taxed" two or three feats to buy into a competency, then each feat after is a qualitative shift in one way or another rather than just more raw power.

eunwoler
2021-04-18, 12:43 AM
That fix doesn't appeal to me IMO JNAProductions. The point of the Fighter is to have the simplest customisable chassis

Any class that has a laundry list of obligatory feats feels very homebrew, not 3.5e.

The naming conventions are also a little inconsistent. A feat called 'The Bigger they are...' and 'The Harder they fall' it's poetic and all but jarringly out of place.

The OP's rewrite looks alot cleaner I think. But the fix you posted is probably well balanced, I just dislike the design choice of it.

Nerth
2021-04-18, 04:26 AM
Imma just leave this here...

Grod did what is, in my opinion, a really cool Fighter remake. I'd recommend giving it a look, and see what inspires you from it!

I think eunwoler and Morphic tide are right that there are aspects to Grod's rewrite that don't sit right with me (pardon the pun). But still, there's a lot for me to learn there. Thank you for the link.


Class Skills: Increasing the skill points from 2 to 4 keeps the fighter in pace with the barbarian and monk at the very least, and is an excellent change. I'll check the skill list to see which skills make most sense for me to include in an expanded list of fighter class skills.
Armor Mastery (Ex): Removing the reduction to movement speed from medium and heavy armor fits well into my version of armored athletics.

Grod's fighter's features also highlight a couple in-game challenges that my fighter build will need to address.


Size bonuses on grapple checks etc. mean that the fighter is outclassed at some point, or simply can't make checks.
Each martial class has at least a set of immunities and/or a way to improve two out of three saves (barbarians get a +2/3/4 rage bonus to Will saves, monks get full saves outright, paladins get Cha to saves, rangers get good Ref saves outright, and rogues get nothing because they probably need their own rewrite). You can think of my version of grit as a fighter's immunities, but he still probably needs a way to roll better Ref or Will saves.
A fighter doesn't have a way of overcoming DR or treating his weapons as magical (then again, neither does the barbarian or rogue, I think). This is especially grievous against incorporeal enemies if the fighter doesn't have a magic weapon. I don't know if this is in the scope of a fighter fix that keeps it as a mundane class, though.
At some point a fighter's most interesting action is, "I take a full-attack action." Fighters should get a choice of actions to take in combat, but I think this is closer to the realm of feats.
A fighter's numbers don't go up the same way barbarians (rage), paladins (smite), and rangers (favored enemy) do. Well, fighters have access to Weapon Specialization et al., but that's a choice that a fighter player can choose not to take, and eats up their bonus feats.

I think the last big thing I've learned from Grod's rewrite is how to format tables better. It's shown me that my fighter still gets nothing from regular character advancement AND nothing from his class features EXCEPT maybe another bonus feat at 10th, 14th, and 19th level. A fighter should also probably have a proper 20th-level capstone. It looks like I have some more work to do!


It's a cool concept, I'll admit, but it absolutely annihilates the premise of the Fighter as being the simplest and most direct front-line combatant. You end up needing to fill out seven different sets of ten feats, choose an actual permanent subclass with each having a different key attribute, go over another option list based on but not actually entirely tied to the subclasses, track a dicepool, and use the handful of locked-in features. It also explicitly devours the Barbarian and is practically designed to outmode the default Ranger.

Personally, I like the Fighting Style used here over how Grod did it, as the granularity enables a newbie to experiment with their feat selections to figure out what are the important core functions versus the niche utilities or trap options, because they get enough to throw at the wall they're unlikely to actually miss out on must-have options. It's the same Fighter Bonus Feat list, they just get to use more of it, and that it's virtually all combat output makes it clear the point is to have a variety of specialized combat routines.

On principal, I feel that any Fighter fix should primarily be a fix of the feat system to result in the Fighter becoming a perfectly functional generic class, and completely axe all the Paladin-level subsystem access classes as feat fodder. Purge the traps, shorten the chains, widen the trees. Make it so that you're "taxed" two or three feats to buy into a competency, then each feat after is a qualitative shift in one way or another rather than just more raw power.


That fix doesn't appeal to me IMO JNAProductions. The point of the Fighter is to have the simplest customisable chassis

Any class that has a laundry list of obligatory feats feels very homebrew, not 3.5e.

The naming conventions are also a little inconsistent. A feat called 'The Bigger they are...' and 'The Harder they fall' it's poetic and all but jarringly out of place.

The OP's rewrite looks alot cleaner I think. But the fix you posted is probably well balanced, I just dislike the design choice of it.
This started out as just grit as a way to fill in a couple dead levels, but now that it's a fighter rewrite I need some design goals written out.

I imagine the fighter being a simple class chassis whose core customizable class feature is the fighter bonus feats. To that end, a choice of subclasses and subclass-specific options is beyond the scope of my fighter class, which I think you're right on the money. Morphic tide, I'm not familiar with the "paladin-level subsystem access classes" you're talking about. Could you give me some examples? I think you're also right that a fighter class rewrite isn't complete without looking at the fighter bonus feats themselves.


I think that's a perfectly reasonable fix for it. I'm looking forward to seeing if this goes any further because I am really enjoying it!

Thanks! I think the next few things that I need to think about are:


Expand the list of fighter class skills.
Design class features for fighter level 10th, 14th, and 19th. If the level ranges need to be expanded, one option is "At 6th level and every four levels thereafter (10th, 14th, 18th)."
Design a capstone for 20th! I'm pretty excited about this.
Start looking at the Player's Handbook fighter bonus feats to remove or improve options and give fighters something to do except "I roll to hit."

Please, comment if you have any ideas towards any of these design goals.

Nerth
2021-04-19, 08:18 AM
The first three of the fighter bonus feats in the Player's Handbook. I'd like to talk about these first, especially to discuss the ideas of feat taxes and feats that scale at base attack bonus +1/+6/+11/+16. Changes I have made are in orange.

Blind-Fight [Fighter Bonus]
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Listen 1 rank.

Benefit: You get the following benefits against enemies you can’t see, either because you are blinded or they are invisible.


If you would miss a melee attack because of normal or total concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll once to see if you actually hit.
An enemy you can’t see gets no advantages on their melee attacks against you. You don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to AC or take the normal -2 penalty to AC because of the blinded condition, and an invisible enemy can’t ignore your Dexterity bonus to AC or get the normal +2 bonus on attack rolls against you. This benefit doesn’t apply to ranged attacks.
If you succeed on a Listen check to locate an enemy you can’t see, you can pinpoint their square instead of learning their general direction. The enemy still has total concealment against you.
You are less restricted in your movement while blinded. You can move at your normal speed, but you still can’t run or charge.

Normal (WIP): See the invisible and blinded condition. See also the Darkness section in Surroundings, Weather, and Environment.

Special: You lose the benefits of the Blind-Fight feat against ethereal characters, such as one under the effects of a blink spell.

The first fighter bonus feat in the Player's Handbook has a lot of text. I'm going to borrow from 5e's formatting for feats here, but not for feats with a single large benefit.

A fighter bypasses the Wis 13 prerequisite at 1st level. The Listen skill prerequisite is important, because I've added the option to pinpoint an enemy without having to succeed at Listen DC + 20. I'm thinking each fighter bonus feat shouldn't just remove penalties, but add something for the player to do. "I want to spend my free actions to make Listen checks against unseen enemies because there's a good chance I'll succeed" is something I'd like to promote.

Instead of three-quarters movement speed, I've given full speed without running or charging. Figuring out difficult terrain + half movement is easy. Difficult terrain + 3/4 movement is annoying.
Combat Expertise [Fighter Bonus]
Prerequisites: Int 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full-attack action in melee, you can take up to a -5 penalty on your attack roll and add the same amount as a dodge bonus to AC. This number can’t exceed your base attack bonus. These modifiers to attack rolls and AC last until the start of your next turn.

While you’re taking at least a -1 penalty on your attack rolls because of the Combat Expertise feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an enemy and when you attempt to sunder their weapon or object they're carrying or wearing.

What does this have to do with the fighting defensively option in its Normal section? I have no idea.

A fighter bypasses the Int 13 prerequisite at 1st level. The new BAB prerequisite is so that a character who has the feat can actually use it.

"Until your next action" was somewhat unclear to me, so I changed that to "until the start of your next turn."

The second fighter bonus feat is a great point to talk about feat taxes. I think a part of what makes feat taxes so egregious is that they don't actually interact with the feat further down the feat chain. I want to split the feat chains for special attacks along these lines:


Bull rush and overrun both require you to make a Strength check. It makes sense that they still interact with Power Attack, the Str 13 feat, in some way.
Grapple and unarmed trip both require you to make an unarmed attack. It makes sense to slot them in with Improved Unarmed Strike.
Disarm and sunder both require you to make a melee weapon attack roll. Since Power Attack already has two special attacks, game-wise it might be nicer for sunder to be slotted with Combat Expertise.
Feint is really the odd one out, since requires you to make a Bluff check AND it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

One final way to think about it is that you could be doing any one of these special attacks because you're thinking tactically (Combat Expertise) or because you're a sheer ball of muscle (Power Attack). In that case, using either feat should stop you from provoking attacks of opportunity, and you should be able to use either feat to qualify for the "Improved" line of special attack feats. This is the most lenient option in my opinion, and something I'd like some feedback on.
Combat Reflexes [Fighter Bonus]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to 1 + your Dexterity bonus. At base attack bonus +6 and every five points thereafter (+11, +16, and so on), you can make an additional attack of opportunity.

In addition, you can also make attacks of opportunity while you’re flat-footed.

Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

New prerequisite so that someone who takes the feat will have the benefit of that feat.

A fighter bypasses the Dex 13 prerequisite at 1st level. The new line of text is meant to allow a fighter who qualified for this feat with a Dex of 11 or less to still earn extra attacks of opportunity by levelling up. It's also a good point to talk about scaling feats, especially looking at regular/Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Base attack bonus +6/+11/+16 seem like good breaking points for a scaling feat, and doing so would mean that those levels are a little less dead for the fighter.

JNAProductions
2021-04-19, 08:25 AM
Combat Reflexes [Fighter Bonus]
Prerequisites: Dex 13.

Benefit: You can make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. At base attack bonus +1 and every five points thereafter (+6, +11, and so on), you can make an additional attack of opportunity (to a maximum of 4 + your Dexterity bonus at base attack bonus +16).

In addition, you can also make attacks of opportunity while you’re flat-footed.

Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

New prerequisite so that someone who takes the feat will have the benefit of that feat.

A fighter bypasses the Dex 13 prerequisite at 1st level. The new line of text is meant to allow a fighter who qualified for this feat with a Dex of 11 or less to still earn extra attacks of opportunity by levelling up. It's also a good point to talk about scaling feats, especially looking at regular/Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Base attack bonus +6/+11/+16 seem like good breaking points for a scaling feat, and doing so would mean that those levels are a little less dead for the fighter.

Make it 4+Dex bonus, with a minimum of 1 (or 0) on the Dexterity bonus. No need to punish low Dex Fighters any more than they already deal with.

eunwoler
2021-04-19, 04:07 PM
Cleaner scaling BAB feats with the +1/+6/+11/+16 progression.. wtf I was literally working on making my own little sheet full of this **** a week ago. The Fighter rebalance hive mind is a linked global consciousness


On topic: this type of scaling is what I much prefer to the tome bull**** of having more lines than a DMV per feat, with entire new abilities crammed in at +1,+6,+11,+16 that by level 20 you're book keeping a good 60 or so different functionalities if you choose to subject yourself to that pain

Morphic tide
2021-04-19, 05:34 PM
Feats scaling at iterative breakpoints is a wonderful idea, but has a slight issue in only being the stand-out at level 11, as you still get Bonus Feats at 6th and 16th. Also, since I'd forgotten it earlier:


Morphic tide, I'm not familiar with the "paladin-level subsystem access classes" you're talking about. Could you give me some examples? I think you're also right that a fighter class rewrite isn't complete without looking at the fighter bonus feats themselves.

Obviously Paladin itself, and by extension Ranger and Hexblade, but you also have the Soulborn possessing the same access-at-4th-level functionality, and at a slightly greater stretch there's a lot of the space with PRCs like Shadowsmith and War Mind with their 6th-level entry to reduced progressions. Of particular note is the Soulborn, as its current version has basically no sensible flavor of its own, being rather singularly "Paladin, but Incarnum", while the idea of a predominantly mundane Incarnum-fueled combatant has wonderful thematic resonance with the feat-switching here in calling up the souls of departed warriors to borrow the skills of.

Given the scope of this level of access and the risks involved in having subsystem access in the 22 known feats, I'd have the added chains build on top of the likes of Bind Vestige, so entry into the subsystem takes one of your "proper" feats, but that one feat gives you most of, if not all, of the bottom of the subsystem to take whatever piece of you feel needed, and then you can follow that up with Fighter Bonus Feat advancement that requires that hard-bought feat to move forward with. With Binding, the discussions I've seen have frequently revolved around applying the sigil to equipment and interacting with what's drawn on the ground, though the latter has logistical issues from the one-minute setup time.

Nerth
2021-04-19, 11:18 PM
Make it 4+Dex bonus, with a minimum of 1 (or 0) on the Dexterity bonus. No need to punish low Dex Fighters any more than they already deal with.

I've edited it to 1 + Dex bonus, scaling by +1 at base attack +6/+11/+16 (max. 4 + Dex bonus). It does what I think you're asking for (gives low-Dex fighters a benefit even if they don't have a Dex bonus), but I think keeping it as a scaling number would be better than giving high-Dex characters a massive front-loaded benefit.


Cleaner scaling BAB feats with the +1/+6/+11/+16 progression.. wtf I was literally working on making my own little sheet full of this **** a week ago. The Fighter rebalance hive mind is a linked global consciousness

On topic: this type of scaling is what I much prefer to the tome bull**** of having more lines than a DMV per feat, with entire new abilities crammed in at +1,+6,+11,+16 that by level 20 you're book keeping a good 60 or so different functionalities if you choose to subject yourself to that pain
Now I really want to see your little sheet and compare notes! The hive mind demands it. Here are a few more ideas I came up with today:

Improved Unarmed Strike: Damage die increases to 1d6 (1d4) at BAB +1, 1d8 (1d6) at BAB +6, 1d10 (1d8) at BAB +11, and 2d6 (1d10) at BAB +16. (Slower than a monk's progression, but still more than something.)

Stunning Fist: One extra use per day at BAB +11/+16. (Slower than a monk again, but still more than something.)

Two-Weapon Defense:
Tired: +1 shield bonus to AC when wielding double weapons. BAB +6/+11/+16, increase bonus by +1.
Wired: +1/+2 shield bonus to AC when wielding double weapons. Decrease penalty for fighting defensively by 1/2/3/4 at BAB +1/+6/+11/+16.

Two-Weapon Fighting: Fold in Improved and Greater. BAB +6/+11/+16, you also get an iterative attack with your off-hand weapon.


Feats scaling at iterative breakpoints is a wonderful idea, but has a slight issue in only being the stand-out at level 11, as you still get Bonus Feats at 6th and 16th.

If it helps, my version also gets greater grit at 11th. Since making feats scale also inadvertently buffs all other full-BAB classes, I don't know if I would rate it so highly that it should replace a class feature at that level altogether vs. spellcasters, who I don't think need another class feature at a level they unlock a new spell level.


Also, since I'd forgotten it earlier:

Obviously Paladin itself, and by extension Ranger and Hexblade, but you also have the Soulborn possessing the same access-at-4th-level functionality, and at a slightly greater stretch there's a lot of the space with PRCs like Shadowsmith and War Mind with their 6th-level entry to reduced progressions. Of particular note is the Soulborn, as its current version has basically no sensible flavor of its own, being rather singularly "Paladin, but Incarnum", while the idea of a predominantly mundane Incarnum-fueled combatant has wonderful thematic resonance with the feat-switching here in calling up the souls of departed warriors to borrow the skills of.

Given the scope of this level of access and the risks involved in having subsystem access in the 22 known feats, I'd have the added chains build on top of the likes of Bind Vestige, so entry into the subsystem takes one of your "proper" feats, but that one feat gives you most of, if not all, of the bottom of the subsystem to take whatever piece of you feel needed, and then you can follow that up with Fighter Bonus Feat advancement that requires that hard-bought feat to move forward with. With Binding, the discussions I've seen have frequently revolved around applying the sigil to equipment and interacting with what's drawn on the ground, though the latter has logistical issues from the one-minute setup time.

I've read through this comment multiple times, but I just don't understand what a paladin or ranger is accessing at 4th level because I'm not super familiar with Tome of Magic or incarnum things. Are you talking about specific fighter bonus feats that grant access to something psionic, soulmeld-y, paladin-y, or whatever? If that becomes an issue I think the best change keeping this version of the fighter in mind would be as you wrote, to turn them into general feats instead that the fighter has to spend his "proper" feats to take.

Nerth
2021-04-19, 11:41 PM
Some additional thoughts I had today.


Armored Athletics (Ex): By 2nd level, you have constantly trained in armor until it begins to feel like a second skin. Reduce the armor check penalty to your Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Tumble checks by an amount equal to your fighter level (to a minimum penalty of 0). Reduce this penalty to your Swim checks by double this amount instead. When you reduce all armor check penalties for a suit of medium or heavy armor to 0, you are no longer slowed while wearing it.

In addition, you can sleep in medium or heavy armor without becoming fatigued the next day.
Also, let's talk about the only feats in the Player's Handbook that actually require fighter levels: (Greater) Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus.

Table: Comparing Pure Numbers


Character Level
Barbarian
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger


1st
+2 attack/+2 or 3 damage (rage)
+1 attack (Weapon Focus)
+Cha attack/+1 damage (smite)
+2 damage (1st favored enemy)


4th

+1 attack/+2 damage (Weapon Specialization)
+Cha attack/+4 damage (smite con't.)



5th


+Cha attack/+5 damage (smite con't.)
+4 damage (2nd favored enemy)


8th

+2 attack/+2 damage (Greater Weapon Focus)
+Cha attack/+8 damage (smite con't.)



10th


+Cha attack/+10 damage (smite con't.)
+6 damage (3rd favored enemy)


11th
+3 attack/+3 or 4 damage (greater rage)

+Cha attack/+11 damage (smite con't.)



12th

+2 attack/+4 damage (Greater Weapon Spec.)
+Cha attack/+12 damage (smite con't.)



15th


+Cha attack/+15 damage (smite con't.)
+8 damage (4th favored enemy)


20th
+4 attack/+4 or 6 damage (mighty rage)

+Cha attack/+20 damage (smite con't.)
+10 damage (5th favored enemy)



There might be some false equivalencies or bad math here, but this is where I'm coming from:


A fighter's total numbers are actually +1 attack, +4 damage, since everyone here has access to Weapon Focus.
It makes sense for a fighter's bonuses to be less than everyone else's because it's not as situational or limited-use, but then again...
...since each feat chain (Weapon Focus, Greater WF, Weapon Spec, Greater WS) is 4 feats out of the 18 a fighter normally gets, it's at considerable opportunity cost ("You're specialized in greatswords, but you can't make two-handed attacks against grappling enemies. Or that flying enemy, etc.")
...and other classes get some rider benefits anyways. Barbarians get Con and Will saves; rangers get a whole host of minor bonuses per favored enemy. If a fighter wants to keep up, they have to spend their one class feature at that level on a feat that only increases their numbers a little bit.

This isn't taking into consideration Ranged/Melee Weapon Mastery (although I think another +2 attack/damage would round out the fighter's numbers really well), or Weapon Supremacy.

A possible solution is to just build these scaling numbers into the class. That way, a fighter can spend his fighter bonus feat on something he finds interesting and still try to tread water with the numbers. Maybe his Weapon Focus feat could scale at fighter levels 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th; it would play nicer if it were 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th. I'll revisit this idea tomorrow when I'm more awake.

Morphic tide
2021-04-20, 01:17 AM
I've read through this comment multiple times, but I just don't understand what a paladin or ranger is accessing at 4th level because I'm not super familiar with Tome of Magic or incarnum things.
...Look at the Spells Per Day table of the Paladin and Ranger. The unifying feature of the classes mentioned is that they all access their subsystems after 1st level. The same goes for Soulborn only getting an actual Soulmeld at 4th level. It's at the most obvious with the Ranger, as a lot of their "theme" rests on them having Bonus Feats,


Are you talking about specific fighter bonus feats that grant access to something psionic, soulmeld-y, paladin-y, or whatever? If that becomes an issue I think the best change keeping this version of the fighter in mind would be as you wrote, to turn them into general feats instead that the fighter has to spend his "proper" feats to take.
Making additional Fighter feats to improve upon Psionics, Soulmelds, Spellcasting, and such as actual progression (which is to say, getting real spell slots at some rate instead of just CL bonuses), but having General Feats to access the mechanics because the large pool of learned feats would otherwise allow a truly absurd level of versatility and thematic incoherence.

Nerth
2021-04-20, 09:07 AM
...Look at the Spells Per Day table of the Paladin and Ranger. The unifying feature of the classes mentioned is that they all access their subsystems after 1st level. The same goes for Soulborn only getting an actual Soulmeld at 4th level. It's at the most obvious with the Ranger, as a lot of their "theme" rests on them having Bonus Feats,

Making additional Fighter feats to improve upon Psionics, Soulmelds, Spellcasting, and such as actual progression (which is to say, getting real spell slots at some rate instead of just CL bonuses), but having General Feats to access the mechanics because the large pool of learned feats would otherwise allow a truly absurd level of versatility and thematic incoherence.

Okay, that made a lot more sense to me. I didn't mean to sound thick.

I would rather think of "I get access to spellcasting/soulmelds/channels/etc." as an alternate class feature that replaces some but not all of the fighter bonus feats, with the end result being a more flexible and mundane-martial paladin, ranger, etc. out of the fighter chassis. Spontaneous switching within a subsystem (a fighter bonus feat in exchange for a fighter bonus feat) makes sense to me, but I don't know if "I'm going to switch my access to 2nd-level paladin spells for a fighter bonus feat in the middle of combat" is reasonable either in terms of power or complexity.

Morphic tide
2021-04-20, 02:59 PM
=I would rather think of "I get access to spellcasting/soulmelds/channels/etc." as an alternate class feature that replaces some but not all of the fighter bonus feats, with the end result being a more flexible and mundane-martial paladin, ranger, etc. out of the fighter chassis. Spontaneous switching within a subsystem (a fighter bonus feat in exchange for a fighter bonus feat) makes sense to me, but I don't know if "I'm going to switch my access to 2nd-level paladin spells for a fighter bonus feat in the middle of combat" is reasonable either in terms of power or complexity.
Oh, right, bookkeeping. Rarely think about that. I'll direct you to Psychic Warrior (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) for an existing case of this, though its Psionics progression is more akin to the Bard and it loses BAB as part of this. If you have Player's Handbook II, the Duskblade is well-regarded for immediate access to a "low" progression and smoothing out the conflicts of being a melee caster. Supremely obvious feat-fodder because it's entirely blunt quality-of-life needs for all the catches of Arcane spellcasting in melee.

Nerth
2021-04-20, 10:16 PM
Oh, right, bookkeeping. Rarely think about that. I'll direct you to Psychic Warrior (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) for an existing case of this, though its Psionics progression is more akin to the Bard and it loses BAB as part of this. If you have Player's Handbook II, the Duskblade is well-regarded for immediate access to a "low" progression and smoothing out the conflicts of being a melee caster. Supremely obvious feat-fodder because it's entirely blunt quality-of-life needs for all the catches of Arcane spellcasting in melee.

I like the duskblade's spell progression way better than the paladin or ranger's "wait until fourth level." I feel like these are all prime candidates for an alternate class feature that says, "sacrifice X feats from your fighting style: get access to this subsystem."

My thoughts about the fighter's numbers and some more dead levels have coalesced into the following:


Weapon Focus: You get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Weapon Specialization (Ex): Starting at 4th level, your skill at wielding the weapons you have chosen with the Weapon Focus feat improves.

You also get a +1 bonus on damage rolls with any weapon you have chosen with the Weapon Focus feat, and a +1 bonus on opposed Strength checks to avoid being disarmed. At 8th level and every four fighter levels thereafter (12th, 16th, and so on), your bonuses on attack rolls, damage rolls, and opposed Strength checks to avoid being disarmed all increase by +1. If you have taken the Weapon Focus feat multiple times, you get the benefits of weapon specialization at your current fighter level for all of them, regardless of the level you took that feat.

Designer's Note: This replaces Weapon Specialization (fighter level 4th), Greater Weapon Focus (fighter level 8th), and Greater Weapon Specialization (fighter level 12th) for the purpose of converting pre-existing feats or character options that have one of these feats as a prerequisite.
And thus the "you don't unlock any new options or avoid penalties, but your numbers go up a little bit" feats are subsumed into the class itself, and a 4th-level fighter can take an actually interesting fighter bonus feat on top of getting a scaling number.