How to deal with combat allies, in particular pets?

[greenstone]

A comment in the Mounted Combat, Keep it Stupid Simple (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629947-Mounted-Combat-Keep-it-Stupid-Simple) thread made me stop and think about one part of how I run games - combat allies, animals in particular.

How would you deal with a level 1 or 2 party pooling gold and buying a number of mastiffs, then using them in combat?

For four to six level 1 or 2 PCs, four to six mastiffs would double their combat efficiency. As a GM, how should I deal with this?

I'm always happy when players have a good idea, but I don't know if I should now be making encounteres harder or not. Should I leave encounters alone but give the PCs less experience? Is it even an issue - perhaps I'm overthinking?

In the past, my line has been: If you want an animal fighting next to you in combat, you need a class feature. If I allow anyone to just buy a war dog or train an owlbear then the players of beast master barbarians a shepherd druids are going to be asking, 'So why did we pick this class again?"

Now I'm thinking that I need to change my position.

[JNAProductions]

A comment in the Mounted Combat, Keep it Stupid Simple (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629947-Mounted-Combat-Keep-it-Stupid-Simple) thread made me stop and think about one part of how I run games - combat allies, animals in particular.

How would you deal with a level 1 or 2 party pooling gold and buying a number of mastiffs, then using them in combat?

For four to six level 1 or 2 PCs, four to six mastiffs would double their combat efficiency. As a GM, how should I deal with this?

I'm always happy when players have a good idea, but I don't know if I should now be making encounteres harder or not. Should I leave encounters alone but give the PCs less experience? Is it even an issue - perhaps I'm overthinking?

In the past, my line has been: If you want an animal fighting next to you in combat, you need a class feature. If I allow anyone to just buy a war dog or train an owlbear then the players of beast master barbarians a shepherd druids are going to be asking, 'So why did we pick this class again?"

Now I'm thinking that I need to change my position.

If you track XP, it'd be reasonable to award a share of XP to the animals. They're participating in the fight as basically equals-they deserve XP.

But, I would only consider it an issue if the game is less fun because of it. If the players and you are still having fun... Who cares? Just enjoy the game.

[cookieface]

Beastmasters and Shepherd Druids (and other conjurers) have magical connections to their animals that allow them to perfectly control them and command them.

Bringing mastiffs into a fight with a bunch of ferocious Gnolls is not going to go perfectly, even if they've tried to train the mastiffs. Use Animal Handling checks to confirm they will follow the players' commands. Make them use WIS or CON checks to avoid fleeing after getting attacked, since even a trained animal is going to instinctually flee when it takes a spear to the shoulder.

Good luck trying to sneak up on anything with a group of mastiffs as well. If you have trained them to attack well enough for them to be useful in combat, then they likely won't be able to turn off that training. Even in real life, attack dogs are very difficult to keep trained and require near-constant retraining to ensure they will be safe to be around. Attack dogs are at risk of screwing up commands and attacking their handlers. They're either kept in near-constant stress so that once released, they attack hard, or they are trained to act scary as a defense tactic but only to do damage when really, really provoked.

Mounts are exceptions to these rules, and even those should use some Animal Handling checks to ensure a player can control them on the battlefield (at least the first several combats -- once the animal is conditioned to it, I would drop the checks).

[heavyfuel]

If you track XP, it'd be reasonable to award a share of XP to the animals. They're participating in the fight as basically equals-they deserve XP.

But, I would only consider it an issue if the game is less fun because of it. If the players and you are still having fun... Who cares? Just enjoy the game.

Would the animals eventually level up? If so, fair. If not, I'd feel like I was being punished for thinking outside the box

[Elbeyon]

The nature of the game will change if players spend their money on allies instead of whatever junk they would have bought. They could raise a mercenary band to go fight the goblins and kobolds, and that will be very effective. That makes sense. Bounded accuracy means an archer will almost always a useful addition to the group. Getting allies is not a bad thing, but it does mean the game will be different than a small group of four to five adventurers though. Both the players and the gm should be ready and wanting that type of story.

[JNAProductions]

Would the animals eventually level up? If so, fair. If not, I'd feel like I was being punished for thinking outside the box

In my games? Not without the players investing some time and effort into it. But I don't track XP-I use milestone leveling.

[Tanarii]

War mastiffs are basically unguided missiles.

Use an action to make an Animal Handling check and release up to 4 of them to attack. DC for the check depends on how big and scary the enemies look, and can skipped for medium or smaller humanoids. Player rolls initiative, DM decides who and what they attack (or if they run off after taking damage), player can roll attacks. Make another check to call them off early / before everything is dead.

Of course, if you want to keep doing that, your character has to be pretty heartless. They're likely to die frequently.

[Samayu]

To me, bringing dogs along, or any other animal or person, is strictly a role playing choice. If I want to play the kind of character who trains hunting dogs for use in adventuring, then yes. Otherwise, why would I bother? I say this because the GM will increase the threat level to accommodate the advantage gained by my damage multiplier. The only reason that wouldn't happen is if my pet is the result of a class feature. But even then, if my group is knocking over difficult encounters like they're easy, my GM will increase the difficult.

[Elbeyon]

To me, bringing dogs along, or any other animal or person, is strictly a role playing choice. If I want to play the kind of character who trains hunting dogs for use in adventuring, then yes. Otherwise, why would I bother? I say this because the GM will increase the threat level to accommodate the advantage gained by my damage multiplier. The only reason that wouldn't happen is if my pet is the result of a class feature. But even then, if my group is knocking over difficult encounters like they're easy, my GM will increase the difficult.Not all players want a hard or difficult game. They may want to make the game easier by bringing around damage dogos. Some dms are happy to let the game be easier too.

[Samayu]

Not all players want a hard or difficult game. They may want to make the game easier by bringing around damage dogos. Some dms are happy to let the game be easier too.

Some people are weirdos.

[Elbeyon]

Some people are weirdos.A scary amount! :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

@OP: As a DM I'll also point out that the math behind 5E seems to assume that monster AoEs will be plentiful. (By which I mean: DMG guidelines for adjusted XP use 3/2 power scaling instead of quadratic scaling. Quadratic scaling is how direct fire like infantry with rifles is modeled; linear scaling is artillery with AoEs is modeled; 3/2 power scaling is how mixed AoE and direct fire is modeled. If you don't have plenty of monster AoEs then the DMG formulas will overestimate the difficulty of small encounters.)

I would suggest using a fair number of monsters with crowd control AoEs like Medusas, Gorgons, Meenlocks, Bodaks, Magma Mephits, Flameskulls, dragons, etc., not to punish minion use per se (i.e. do this even if they aren't using minions yet) but just because it's an important aspect of the game design. You don't have to do this in every encounter, but it shouldn't be rare either.

Ditto terrain bottlenecks like walls or cliffs you need to scale in order to proceed on the adventure. 2d6 falling damage is nothing to a 7th level PC but it's probably significant to a minion, especially a dog that can't climb back up the wall after falling down. (By RAW it can but the RAW on climbing is stupid and I assume most DMs ignore it at least for animals. No tree climbing elephants here!)

These threats don't need to wipe out the dogs, they just need to supply a plausible answer to the question "Why are the PCs risking their own necks on this adventure / in this situation?"

"Because they hate treating dogs like expendable heat seeking missiles" is a valid answer. Maybe they still pull out the dogs for truly big battles but not for everything.

[elyktsorb]

Mastiffs have like.. 5 hp and 12 AC without buying some form of barding for them. (Everything past Hide Armor barding would be hecking expensive for any real benefit)

The biggest impact this would have on random encounters is that you won't run into smaller encounters. Most humanoid enemies in small groups aren't going to want to attack a group of adventurers and their pack of dogs. Likewise, most small groups of animals would likely steer clear of such a large group (5-6 dogs + however many PC's)

Larger groups probably wouldn't care though and these dogs would die pretty quickly, like a single shortbow 1d6+dex(2) at minimum downs a dog in 2 turns, and these things may end up as priority targets because they can knock down enemies.

The difference between Druid/Ranger beasts and regular ones is that most regulars you just find aren't battle trained, and will need to be directed with specific commands, as well as taught those commands in the first place

Buying Mastiff's you can assume they are trained already, but a player would still need to spend an action in combat to tell them to attack. Unlike Rangers/Druids who's animals they summon or befriend often get additional methods of when they can attack without interrupting the PC's turn.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Would the animals eventually level up? If so, fair. If not, I'd feel like I was being punished for thinking outside the box

From a RW perspective, a dog levels up when it can reliably do something most other dogs don't know how to do. Like grab only the leg and pull an unconscious body back towards a handler. Like detect an explosive material in a building. That's next level, and you can't do that with a house pet.

So in game I guess I'd allow leveling without ASI, replacing the ASI with an increases in the proficiency bonus and making tricks attempted get proficiency. Perhaps adding tricks like a battlemaster learns maneuvers. Sorry, HP remain what they are.

A very valuable dog (4th level with +6 proficiency with grappling and tracking for example) dog is not going to be used as minion fodder because it's a waste of a resource.

I'd agree that a party that uses dogs as fodder would not be a very good one, and would rule the dogs quickly become stressed by the losses of their packmates (because they do) and become sullen and depressed, disadvantaging checks to get them to do the trick.

[Elbeyon]

I'd agree that a party that uses dogs as fodder would not be a very good one, and would rule the dogs quickly become stressed by the losses of their packmates (because they do) and become sullen and depressed, disadvantaging checks to get them to do the trick.Careful, that is how you end up with more dead dogs. If a person is using dogs to fight, they may not care about culling a useless pack and getting more dogs. They want the dogs because they are useful for fighting and depressed dogs are not as useful.

[nickl_2000]

One Fireball deals with them very effectively.

I don't see money as any different of a resource as spells, hp, maneuvers, or magic items. Let's say that a PC buys/finds a potion of Giant Strength, would you count their CR as higher for the combats that they enter when they have the potion active? No, someone used a resource you gave them as the DM to do something. That is simply playing their character.

[Lord Torath]

They're either kept in near-constant stress so that once released, they attack hard, or they are trained to act scary as a defense tactic but only to do damage when really, really provoked.Citation needed.

I've met people with dogs that are extraordinarily friendly, but turn ferocious at a word. There was a family I knew that, even though we were friends, I would not enter their home without a family member to open the door and let me in. No "It's open, come on in!" at that house. As soon as their dog witnessed his family bring us inside, he was super friendly and affectionate. But if he thought we were intruders... yeah, bad. He wasn't one of the dogs that went crazy any time someone walked by the house or knocked at the door, either. He knew what was his territory and what was not. All it takes is proper training.

A bit more on-topic, I've never played 5th, but in 2nd I had a house rule where every time the PC leveled up, their pets (including mounts and familiars) gained a hit die (and all that goes with that - hit points, improved attack bonus and saving throws, etc). This keeps the pets somewhat relevant, and increases their durability a bit (although AC doesn't improve unless the PC gets some form of armor or magical protection for the pet). Their damage per attack and attack rate don't change, though.

If someone has a whole pack of dogs, however, I might limit that to once every other level. Also, 5th has bounded accuracy if I understand correctly, so once every other level or couple of levels would probably work better than it would in 2nd.

[quindraco]

A comment in the Mounted Combat, Keep it Stupid Simple (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629947-Mounted-Combat-Keep-it-Stupid-Simple) thread made me stop and think about one part of how I run games - combat allies, animals in particular.

How would you deal with a level 1 or 2 party pooling gold and buying a number of mastiffs, then using them in combat?

For four to six level 1 or 2 PCs, four to six mastiffs would double their combat efficiency. As a GM, how should I deal with this?

I'm always happy when players have a good idea, but I don't know if I should now be making encounteres harder or not. Should I leave encounters alone but give the PCs less experience? Is it even an issue - perhaps I'm overthinking?

In the past, my line has been: If you want an animal fighting next to you in combat, you need a class feature. If I allow anyone to just buy a war dog or train an owlbear then the players of beast master barbarians a shepherd druids are going to be asking, 'So why did we pick this class again?"

Now I'm thinking that I need to change my position.


There aren't any real rules for handling this, so in terms of the real world to use as inspiration for rules, it's literally impossible to just go buy a dog that comes pretrained to listen to you. That is fundamentally not how dogs work. I don't see any reason to let the PCs buy mastiffs that are wholly and totally dissimilar to real-world dogs like that.

It should take a bare minimum of several months working closely with the dogs to get to even a halfway reasonably trained level, and even then you should be calling for Animal Handling checks. Further, under no circumstances let the PCs control the dogs - there's no dog on Earth that well trained, so why let it happen in your world? The dogs should be friendly NPCs the PCs hope act as desired, not PC-controlled minions like a familiar is.

[Quietus]

More importantly, there is not an unlimited supply of trained dogs out there. Your PCs are going to have to be getting these dogs from breeders/trainers. At some point, even if we're talking dogs bred for hunting/guardian, that person is going to go "But where are the other twelve dogs you bought? WHAT DO YOU MEAN GOBLINS ATE THEM?", and refuse to sell to you, as you are mistreating the animals.

[Elbeyon]

More importantly, there is not an unlimited supply of trained dogs out there. Your PCs are going to have to be getting these dogs from breeders/trainers. At some point, even if we're talking dogs bred for hunting/guardian, that person is going to go "But where are the other twelve dogs you bought? WHAT DO YOU MEAN GOBLINS ATE THEM?", and refuse to sell to you, as you are mistreating the animals.Are we talking about the goblins that are killing people and raiding this person's homeland? The person might have an interest in helping adventurers fend off monsters and magical creatures. Wardogs are bread for combat. And, it's not like we're talking about bad adventurers here. Bad adventurers die and don't come back to buy more dogs. It's not like the dogs dying is unexpected and totally something that is not suppose to happen. That is the reason the dog breeder sold them. They are often there to take the hit for humans. And, it's not like wardogs are a rare thing. Armies have trained up thousands of dogs to serve them in battle. They are that useful.

[MaxWilson]

It should take a bare minimum of several months working closely with the dogs to get to even a halfway reasonably trained level, and even then you should be calling for Animal Handling checks. Further, under no circumstances let the PCs control the dogs - there's no dog on Earth that well trained, so why let it happen in your world? The dogs should be friendly NPCs the PCs hope act as desired, not PC-controlled minions like a familiar is.

I agree from a roleplaying perspective, but in practice IMO it's better to let players control many NPCs during combat (subject to DM veto if they're being asked to act unreasonably) simply because watching the DM roll dice against himself is the most boring thing, even for the DM.


More importantly, there is not an unlimited supply of trained dogs out there. Your PCs are going to have to be getting these dogs from breeders/trainers. At some point, even if we're talking dogs bred for hunting/guardian, that person is going to go "But where are the other twelve dogs you bought? WHAT DO YOU MEAN GOBLINS ATE THEM?", and refuse to sell to you, as you are mistreating the animals.

I imagine fantasy militaries have this same recruiting problem.

Irate mother of two (formerly mother of six): "WHAT DO YOU MEAN GOBLINS ATE THEM?"

[quindraco]

Why the hell is a guy selling war dogs surprised that his customers are using his dogs in war and they're dying? What was he expecting to happen?

Meanwhile, an untrained mastiff costs 25 gp, let alone one that's had at a bare minimum the training a police dog gets, and 25 gp is about a month's rent plus food and water. There's no way he'll refuse to sell.

[Xervous]

Combat ally NPCs are great because there’s no participation hiccup for the players when one eats a oneshot or save or die.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Better (and waaaay less expensive at around 2gp) would be a herd of billie goats perhaps. Trained? No. Herdable/stampedeable? Yes. DPR on a charge > dogs, worse AC, HP pretty much the same, and much, much funnier.

[MaxWilson]

Better (and waaaay less expensive at around 2gp) would be a herd of billie goats perhaps. Trained? No. Herdable/stampedeable? Yes. DPR on a charge > dogs, worse AC, HP pretty much the same, and much, much funnier.

This is fantastic. I love it.

[cookieface]

Citation needed.

I've met people with dogs that are extraordinarily friendly, but turn ferocious at a word. There was a family I knew that, even though we were friends, I would not enter their home without a family member to open the door and let me in. No "It's open, come on in!" at that house. As soon as their dog witnessed his family bring us inside, he was super friendly and affectionate. But if he thought we were intruders... yeah, bad. He wasn't one of the dogs that went crazy any time someone walked by the house or knocked at the door, either. He knew what was his territory and what was not. All it takes is proper training.

A bit more on-topic, I've never played 5th, but in 2nd I had a house rule where every time the PC leveled up, their pets (including mounts and familiars) gained a hit die (and all that goes with that - hit points, improved attack bonus and saving throws, etc). This keeps the pets somewhat relevant, and increases their durability a bit (although AC doesn't improve unless the PC gets some form of armor or magical protection for the pet). Their damage per attack and attack rate don't change, though.

If someone has a whole pack of dogs, however, I might limit that to once every other level. Also, 5th has bounded accuracy if I understand correctly, so once every other level or couple of levels would probably work better than it would in 2nd.

Anecdotal evidence like that doesn't mean anything. Also, you told a story of a dog defending its own territory, which is a completely different thing. I've done research on how to train dogs, as I work with them for a living.

Attack dogs -- I'm talking things like police dogs -- are not pets. They are kept in a state of constant stress so that if they were to be released, they attack and do not stop. Training attack dogs is generally considered very unethical among dog trainers because dogs, believe it or not, don't really enjoy attacking people. They don't bite-bite-bite-bite multiple times by nature, so training dogs to hurt someone by biting them multiple times is only possible through making the dog feel as though they need to fight for their life (hence keeping them in constant stress). They've evolved to trust humans and work in coordination with them. Getting them to attack humans outright goes against their instincts. (It makes sense -- wolves hunt by grasping larger prey in their mouths and taking it down. If they bit, let go, bit again, their prey would get away.)

There are ethical, safe ways to train dogs to be great guard dogs while still being safe to keep around your family. Generally, that means they sound very mean, and they follow simple commands very well. If they are trained to bite, they are usually trained to grab and hold the assailant so that they cannot move, or basically to tackle them.

Dogs can be protective, dogs can be aggressive, dogs can be scary, dogs can be dangerous. None of that means that it is easy to train a dog to fight other animals. It is very difficult to train a dog to attack and attempt to kill another creature. It is unethical to do to the dog, and it goes against millennia of evolution.

[MaxWilson]

They don't bite-bite-bite-bite multiple times by nature, so training dogs to hurt someone by biting them multiple times is only possible through making the dog feel as though they need to fight for their life (hence keeping them in constant stress). They've evolved to trust humans and work in coordination with them. Getting them to attack humans outright goes against their instincts. (It makes sense -- wolves hunt by grasping larger prey in their mouths and taking it down. If they bit, let go, bit again, their prey would get away.)

Is there any particular reason why we don't train police dogs to bite and hold on, like wolves do? That seems ideal for police scenarios like arresting a fleeing criminal.

[Tanarii]

Don't wolves bite on the run when hunting larger prey as a pack, especially hamstringing?

Watched four videos (yay BBC!) and it looks like they will do it if they're in danger, but they're first preference is to bite and hang on.

[Kane0]

How would you deal with a level 1 or 2 party pooling gold and buying a number of mastiffs, then using them in combat?

Let 'em. They're pooling resources into something they see value in, like a pack mule or suit of plate. You could have some interesting in-world ramifications if they buy up all the dogs in the area, send them into badguy-of-the-week meatgrinders and word gets out about it.



For four to six level 1 or 2 PCs, four to six mastiffs would double their combat efficiency. As a GM, how should I deal with this?

I'm always happy when players have a good idea, but I don't know if I should now be making encounteres harder or not. Should I leave encounters alone but give the PCs less experience? Is it even an issue - perhaps I'm overthinking?

You can adjust difficulty depending on the kind of game you want to run (insert Combat-as-Sport vs Combat-as-War reference here), but I'd just print out a statblock (https://tetra-cube.com/dnd/dnd-statblock.html) for each doggo that the PCs can use like sidekicks acting after their own turn (max one 'sidekick' per player to avoid analysis paralysis and turns taking forever).
If you have a problem with perfect tactical decisionmaking just insert an animal handling check to get the dogs to do what the PCs command them to do, but i'd personally not really bother doing this unless you're going heavier into simulationist territory with the same for horses, NPC morale, etc.



In the past, my line has been: If you want an animal fighting next to you in combat, you need a class feature. If I allow anyone to just buy a war dog or train an owlbear then the players of beast master barbarians a shepherd druids are going to be asking, 'So why did we pick this class again?"

Now I'm thinking that I need to change my position.
Simple, NPCs you hire/train don't level up or otherwise scale if you as DM don't want them to. They will drop off in usefulness compared to scaling PC pets/summons and naturally fall to the wayside as a more niche item on the list of tools available to PCs.
But just take note and talk to your players about how you might want to handle actual sidekicks, like if they rescue an NPC that ends up joining them or whatever.

[cookieface]

Yes but not how you'd expect. They tend to be patient hunters, letting prey panic itself and exhaust itself rather than attempting to win a race or an assault against generally faster, stronger prey. When they finally make the move to finish the hunt it's to take down an elk/deer/bison by grabbing legs, neck, and/or nose to take it down and kill it. And that's multiple in the pack doing so, not one attempting to bite all those things.

Regarding police dog training: Depends on the force and the trainer, I suppose. Dogs aren't often used in rundowns, more often to disarm and incapacitate. Making someone feel a lot of pain is an effective way to make them drop a weapon, so several thrashing bites is what does that. Sending a dog to grab a criminal by the leg and not let go is a good way to get a dog shot or stabbed.

[Kurt Kurageous]

They tend to be patient hunters, letting prey panic itself and exhaust itself rather than attempting to win a race or an assault against generally faster, stronger prey. When they finally make the move to finish the hunt it's to take down an elk/deer/bison by grabbing legs, neck, and/or nose to take it down and kill it. And that's multiple in the pack doing so, not one attempting to bite all those things.

Most people don't understand wolves but think they get dogs. Dogs are much more servile than wolves, and look to you to solve problems they cannot. A domesticated wolf (oxymoron) will try to figure it out itself rather than looking to it's human pack leader. Assuming it accepts a pack leader. Yes, this is a generality and your dog may be different.

Wolves/dogs have a phenomenal ability to jog/run for hours when the air is cool. They will follow a herd, cut out the old, sick, and weak, and run them to exhaustion. There just isn't a DnD mechanic to reflect this. This tactic is very similar to hyenas (by extension, gnolls) who run prey to exhaustion, harry them with nips and bites, and wait for the prey to hit (I suppose level 2 or 3) exhaustion.

I've found nature films to be a good source of tactics for my monsters. Lioness hunting party is among my favorite ambush tactic because it looks so good in my mind.

[KorvinStarmast]

There just isnt a DnD mechanic to reflect this. This tactic is very similar to hyenas (by extension, gnolls) who run prey to exhaustion, harry them with nips and bites, and wait for the prey to hit (I suppose level 2 or 3) exhaustion. As the local gnoll chieftan told one of the PCs: you can run, but you'll only die tired. (Granted, he didn't realize that the party wizard, invisible, school of evocation, was about 100 feet away and was about to cast fireball)

[MaxWilson]

Regarding police dog training: Depends on the force and the trainer, I suppose. Dogs aren't often used in rundowns, more often to disarm and incapacitate. Making someone feel a lot of pain is an effective way to make them drop a weapon, so several thrashing bites is what does that. Sending a dog to grab a criminal by the leg and not let go is a good way to get a dog shot or stabbed.

Interesting, thanks!


As the local gnoll chieftan told one of the PCs: you can run, but you'll only die tired. (Granted, he didn't realize that the party wizard, invisible, school of evocation, was about 100 feet away and was about to cast fireball)

(Laughs.)

[Thunderous Mojo]

Is there any particular reason why we don't train police dogs to bite and hold on, like wolves do? That seems ideal for police scenarios like arresting a fleeing criminal.

Grabbing and holding onto an appendage was the Standard Practice for Police Dogs.

I was born into a family of AKC dog trainers, have shown dogs myself since I qualified to be a Junior Handler, (read minor), and one of my family's great friends was Fon Johnson...whom professionally trained Police Dogs for California Police Departments.

A Police Working dog should release the suspect, ideally, at the first command. (Though in practice, a second command is often needed).

Now many Police Agencies in the United States now use Working Animals trained in Germany, so perhaps the procedure has changed. Some of what cookieace has stated, does not seem entirely accurate to me, but this may be a misunderstanding on my part or a change in training methodology and goals in general.



Regarding police dog training: Depends on the force and the trainer, I suppose. Dogs aren't often used in rundowns, more often to disarm and incapacitate. Making someone feel a lot of pain is an effective way to make them drop a weapon, so several thrashing bites is what does that. Sending a dog to grab a criminal by the leg and not let go is a good way to get a dog shot or stabbed.

I agree with this. I do wish to state, that I highly suspect that Frontline Military Unit 'War Dogs' are actually trained to flush out, engage, and disable in a more aggressive manner than Police Dogs were trained to do in the 1980-1990s.

My 9 1/2 year old German Shepherd is my ,(deceased), little cousin's retired 'war dog' and while the dog has the best tracking nose of any dog I have owned....the dog doesn't follow typical American Kennel Club tracking commands.

She does release squirrels on command though, when she catches them.
Are there any military trained Dog Handlers on the board?

(My cousin, when alive and on active duty was very reticent to discuss operational aspects of training for his units dogs...which I understood)

[Lord Torath]

Citation needed.

<snip>That's a pretty decent citation, and while still anecdotal, is much more ... respectable? trustworthy? expansive? informed?... let's go with 'informed' than mine.

I should add that the dog in my anecdote was also protective in public. He knew who his people were, and would defend their infant and toddler against others, unless one of 'his' people vouched for them. His owners were serious about his training, though.

Still just a single anecdote, though, compared to your direct experience with dogs.

[Terebin]

I generally prefer to let player strategies work. As long as there isn't a ranger or druid in the party, I am not very worried about bought hirelings overshadowing dedicated pet class features. If there is a dedicated minionmancer, I would want to make sure that player is feeling some kind of pay off for their choice. But, I think buying allies is one of the better uses of gold. Trained dogs are really good at some applications (tracking, searching, alerting) and less effective at others (surviving ranged attacks).

PS no one should use any of the claims about animal behavior in this thread in real life, it borders on dangerously incorrect

[cookieface]

PS no one should use any of the claims about animal behavior in this thread in real life, it borders on dangerously incorrect

For sure. I would not advise anyone to use my non-expert advice regarding dogs, and rather consult the many dedicated websites and books to that subject rather than a TTRPG forum. I've generally only learned that training dogs to attack is generally unhealthy for both dog and trainer and was making a point about that.

My greater point is that training an animal to do things that are not natural behaviors is hard. It requires hours, weeks, even months worth of attention, and constant reinforcement. Thinking "I can buy a mastiff in-game and tell it to attack in that fight later today" is not at all realistic. Using animal companions like that is reserved for summoning spells and beastmasters; if a player attempted to do so outside of those options I would make it pretty difficult, but achievable through a lot of downtime dedication.

ETA: Additionally, letting everyone know that, despite wolves and bears and other predators being scary and capable of inflicting huge amounts of damage to another animal, their actual hunting techniques are very different from "combat" as it works in DND. I can't think of many wild animals IRL that would stick around for round two if life-threatening danger was apparent to them after round one. Wild animals are survivalists and would usually rather run than fight to the death.

[Elbeyon]

If the players are wanting better allies, it is 2 gold a day for an expert hireling! A CR 5 gladiator has 112 hp! Fourteen gold for a weeks worth of help on a quest isn't a bad deal.

[Tanarii]

If the players are wanting better allies, it is 2 gold a day for an expert hireling! A CR 5 gladiator has 112 hp! Fourteen gold for a weeks worth of help on a quest isn't a bad deal.
Pretty sure an Expert Hireling is more like a CR 1/8 Guard.

And dungeon delving or questing probably merits danger pay or a share of the loot ... :smallamused:

[Terebin]

For sure. I would not advise anyone to use my non-expert advice regarding dogs, and rather consult the many dedicated websites and books to that subject rather than a TTRPG forum. I've generally only learned that training dogs to attack is generally unhealthy for both dog and trainer and was making a point about that.

This, specifically, is not true. No one wastes times and money training a dog that doesn't want to bite.

[Elbeyon]

Pretty sure an Expert Hireling is more like a CR 1/8 Guard.

And dungeon delving or questing probably merits danger pay or a share of the loot ... :smallamused:A guard is probably closer to an untrained hireling. A person could get ten guards for two gold a day! Expert hirelings are, well, experts with specialized skills, such as adventuring. A veteran (CR 3) would be an expert!

An hireling gets paid a fixed amount. Two gold per day. Anything aside from that is homebrew. Besides, the books gives hirelings that are willing to fight as an example, so danger pay is definitely not a thing.

[quindraco]

Is there any particular reason why we don't train police dogs to bite and hold on, like wolves do? That seems ideal for police scenarios like arresting a fleeing criminal.

Police dogs do exactly this. It's generally impossible to get them to release on command, in fact - they have to be physically taken off their target, since they're too excited at that point to listen.

It gets harder and harder to get a dog to obey the more stimulated it is.

[quindraco]

If the players are wanting better allies, it is 2 gold a day for an expert hireling! A CR 5 gladiator has 112 hp! Fourteen gold for a weeks worth of help on a quest isn't a bad deal.

I would spend the entire time demanding the gladiator tell me about his life, because his statline is so good it costs seven ASIs, and that's assuming he has a 2/1 racial mod, which is unclear. On top of that he's got a proficiency bonus of only +3 despite 15 hit dice, he has a weird copy of Extra Attack that lets him melee like an L11 fighter but ranged like an L5, and then he has Defensive Duelist only better because he doesn't need a finesse weapon for it, Brutal Critical, the halfling racial against being frightened while not a halfling, and then.... and then we get to his weapons.

His shield is an improvised weapon he's proficient with that does double dice damage and also inflicts a Strength save or prone against creatures his size or smaller. His spear has the same double dice damage effect, meaning it's a one-handed greatsword or he can two-hand it to outperform any weapon that actually exists, and since both the spear and shield are mundane equipment, that's pure, raw talent.

Oh, and I forgot to mention he has a third saving throw proficiency, and expertise in Athletics.

I mean, god damn. Give that man the longsword and half plate you know damn well he's proficient in and watch your enemies evaporate like butter exposed to a hot chainsaw. If 5E actually let you give up your proficiency bonus for more feats, this dude is the sort of thing that would become actually legal.

If his going rate is 2 gold a day I'd just put him on permanent retainer for 3. That's insanely cheap for a man or woman capable of this sheer level of murder.

[Tanarii]

A guard is probably closer to an untrained hireling. A person could get ten guards for two gold a day! Expert hirelings are, well, experts with specialized skills, such as adventuring. A veteran (CR 3) would be an expert!I found why I thought a guard, it's because the DMG has this for Garrisons. But you're right on a Veteran.

Garrisons.
Castles and keeps employ soldiers (use the veteran and guard statistics in the Monster Manual) to defend them. Roadside inns, outposts and forts, palaces, and temples rely on less-experienced defenders (use the guard statistics in the Monster Manual). These armed warriors make up the bulk of a property's skilled hirelings.
DMG 127

(Also see the PHB quote below, anyone with a weapon proficiency is considered skilled.)


An hireling gets paid a fixed amount. Two gold per day. Anything aside from that is homebrew. Besides, the books gives hirelings that are willing to fight as an example, so danger pay is definitely not a thing.Expert Hirelings might get paid more than 2 gp, per the PHB. That gladiator or mercenary willing to come into a dungeon with you might cost a lot more than 2 gp per day.

Skilled hirelings include anyone hired to perform a service that involves a proficiency (including weapon, tool, or skill): a mercenary, artisan, scribe, and so on. The pay shown is a minimum; some expert hirelings require more pay. Untrained hirelings are hired for menial work that requires no particular skill and can include laborers, porters, maids, and similar workers.
PHB 159