Awesome feats people forget about

[Biggus]

I was recently reminded of the feat Steadfast Determination (PHB2). For a creature with high Con and no shortage of feats (it has Endurance as a prerequisite), it's amazing: the Tarrasque for example gets +10 to Will and means it'll effectively never fail a Fortitude save.

We all know about Craven and Fell Drain and Initiate of Mystra, what are your favourite feats that aren't constantly mentioned as must-haves?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Skill Knowledge -- add a skill to your class list. Great for Iaijutsu Focus or occasionally for qualifications. (Disclaimer: it's meant for an alternate skill system, but works fine with the default without any adaption necessary). Similarly, Aereni Focus does the same thing bundled with Skill Focus, if you happen to be a first level Elf in Eberron.

[the_tick_rules]

improved buckler defense, lets you get shield ac if you use your hand that round.

[Temotei]

Dutiful Guardian. Lets you switch places with an ally affected by Constant Guardian (the prerequisite feat) as an immediate action. Both are in Drow of the Underdark, which has a ton of cool feats. Eilservs School is fun, Versatile Combatant is cute, and Aleval School is always nice on a rogue, to name a few.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Proteus‚ from Exemplar of Evils. It allows you to blind an opponent and get 50% concealment to any attack by an immediate action‚ to get a +10 to Bluff that will not be noticed‚ stop an opponent in its track with Illusory Pit‚ set up Improved Invisibility without wasting an action‚ and above all‚ be able to almost counterspell anything without having to ready an action with immediate silence.

[Khedrac]

Close Quarters Fighting - make the uber-grappler regret even thinking about grappling you (it might still win, but it just gave you a free attack).

[Biggus]

Primary Contact retraining cheese for prereqs, no one will ever take this from me.

Is the importance of this that it allows you enter some prestige classes a level earlier, or is there something else?


Dutiful Guardian. Lets you switch places with an ally affected by Constant Guardian (the prerequisite feat) as an immediate action. Both are in Drow of the Underdark, which has a ton of cool feats. Eilservs School is fun, Versatile Combatant is cute, and Aleval School is always nice on a rogue, to name a few.

Eilservs School seems pretty good for a gish. I've never played a staff-based combatant before, I might make one now.


Proteus‚ from Exemplar of Evils. It allows you to blind an opponent and get 50% concealment to any attack by an immediate action‚ to get a +10 to Bluff that will not be noticed‚ stop an opponent in its track with Illusory Pit‚ set up Improved Invisibility without wasting an action‚ and above all‚ be able to almost counterspell anything without having to ready an action with immediate silence.

Oooh that's a nice little feat, I'm going to have to remember that one.

[ShurikVch]

Hulking Brute (Dragonlance Campaign Setting): like Jotunbrud, but isn't setting-specific or [regional], and instead "Damaran or Illuskan human" required "Half-ogre or minotaur". While only Krynnish Minotaurs are small enough to care, "Half-Ogre" is also a template (although, to get the benefits, "base creature" should be Small)

[Saintheart]

Eilservs School seems pretty good for a gish. I've never played a staff-based combatant before, I might make one now.

Two things about Eilservs School:

(1) Ask for clarity from your DM about whether the ability to 'activate' a spell from the magic staff on hitting with both ends actually consumes a charge from the staff. Staffs are a spell-trigger item, meaning normally casting a spell from one is a standard action. Eilservs School changes that rule and allows it as a swift action instead, and since the power of the other aspect of the feat depends on how many charges the staff has, it would obviously be more advantageous to not consume a charge from the staff.

(2) You don't have to have a particular spell worth casting in the staff to pick up the +5 untyped damage bonus. A staff of Light, a 0-level spell, costs 1,500 gp. Not bad for a +1 (masterwork) to attack, +5 to damage (50 charges) weapon which you can add more stuff to. Compare the Collision weapon quality, effectively costing you +6 worth of upgrades since you have to pay for both ends.


EDIT: As for awesome feats: Mindsight from Lords of Madness. Especially good with 1 level of Mindbender. You have instant and perfect intel on the location, type, and INT score of all creatures within 100 feet of you. Sure you still have to pinpoint invisible targets, but this basically means you'll never get jumped on watch again.

[Albanymusicfund]

Ki Blast PHB II page 90.

While lackluster in terms of damage, it gives the Monk a way to do kamehamehas without having to multiclassing. It has a feat tax (fiery ki defense which is another conceptually cool but statistically underwhelming feat). But dang it, I'm going to blast my enemies anyways.

[Godofallu]

Let me throw out a few unusual feats in my feat list that may be useful.

Hyena Tribe Hunter (Human) Gain +2 to trip and do not need combat expertise to take improved trip feat. +2 to hide.

Dire flail smash (improved sunder, power attack, weapon focus (dire flail),str 13)If you hit the same creature with both ends of your dire flail in the same round, it must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or be dazed by the pain for 1 round.

Mercantile Background (Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, or Human. 1st lvl only, regional feat [limit 1 regional feat])- When you sell weapons, magic items, or other adventuring goods, you get 75% of the list price instead of 50%. Once per month, you can buy any single item at 75% of the offered price. You also receive an extra 300 gp to spend as you see fit during character creation.

Ability Enhancer (spell focus- transmutation) Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does. For example, casting animalistic power would give +4 to str, dex and con.

Miser with magic (Dragonlance, CL 7) You can make a Spellcraft roll to retain the use of a spell after you cast it. The spellcraft DC is 10 +twice the spell's level. If you succeed, you managed to conserve enough magical energy, from this and other spells you have cast, that the spell (or spell slots for sorcerors) is not considered spent and may be used again. You may only use this ability on a number of spell levels equal to the ability score modifier appropriate to the type of spells you cast (charisma for sorceror or bard spells for example)
If you fail the roll by 5 or more, you spent insufficient energy to cast the spell at all. You lose the spell or the spell slot, and the spell has no effect.

Shape soulmeld- Chaos Roc's Span (Con 13, requires dragonblood) Gain 2 buffet wing attacks with reach (can't attack adjacent) for shaping. Secondary attacks which deal 1D4M+.5Str NONLETHAL and bludgeoning. +1dmg/essentia.
When bound to shoulders (totemist 9+) wings do lethal dmg and if you hit 1 oppoenent with both attacks Fort save or daze opponent for 1D4 rounds. Shoulders lvl 9+ totemist to bind.

Shape soulmeld- Dragon Tail (Con 13, requires dragonblood) Gain a tail which deals 1D8 damage when shaped. This tail doesn't threaten and therefor can't be sued to make AOO's and can't be used while grappling. Can invest essentia for +1 atk/dmg per point. If bound to totem (totemist 2+) you can take a standard action to do a tail sweep attack which does dmg to all adjacent foes. Ref half. If bound to waist (totemist 14+) the tail has reach and can do a special attack which deals 2D6M+1.5 str.

Shape soulmeld- Claws of the Wyrm (Con 13, requires dragonblood) Gain 2 claw attacks which deal 1D6M. Can invest essentia at +1atk/dmg per point. Can bind to totem at lvl2+ Totemist to gainc limb speed = 1/2 your group speed. Can bind to hands at lvl5+ Totemist to step up claw dmg by 1. Can bind to arms at 9+ Totemist to double threat range. Doesn't stack with other effects. So 19-20/x2

Bonded (Handle Animal 5, trained pet or animal companion) Whenever you and your pet attack the same foe in a round you both gain +1 to attack and dmg. In addition when you attack a foe with a ranged weapon you do not take the normal -4 penalty for firing into a melee if your pet is the only ally currently in combat with it. Cover penalties still apply.

Double Team (Handle animal 8, Bonded, trained pet or animal companion) Once per round, after your pet successfully strikes an opponent, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent. This feat does not allow you to make more attacks of opportunity than you normally oculd in a round.

Enspell Familiar (Cl 1, ability to gain a familiar) You are always considered to be in contact with your familiar for the purposes of sharing spells. Any spell you cast on yourself also affects your familiar as long as it is within 1 mile of you.

Dreadful Wrath (Human, Kua-toa, planetouched)- When you charge, make a full attack, or cast a spell that either targets an enemy or includes an enemy in its area, you gain the frightful presence ability for that round. Each enemy within a 20-foot radius of you must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute. Regardless of its success or failure on the saving throw, any creature exposed to this effect is immune to your frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is an extraordinary morale effect.

Entangling Exhalation (Breath Weapon, Dragonblood Subtype) When you use your breath weapon, you can choose to enmesh all creatures in its area instead of producing its normal effect. Your breath weapon deals only half its normal damage; however, any creature that takes damage from your breath weapon becomes entangled and takes an extra 1d6 points of damage, of the same energy type as normally dealt by your breath weapon, each round at the start of your turn. This effect lasts for 1d4 rounds.

[Remuko]

Ki Blast PHB II page 90.

While lackluster in terms of damage, it gives the Monk a way to do kamehamehas without having to multiclassing. It has a feat tax (fiery ki defense which is another conceptually cool but statistically underwhelming feat). But dang it, I'm going to blast my enemies anyways.

see i see it as just a....ki blast. like the small orbs they shoot that never do any damage lol i felt there needed to be a ki blast feat chain to let you do more DBZ style ki attacks.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

On the subject of cool Monk stuff:

Stonewalker Fist - alter the elemental composition of your fists to phase them through armor. Unfortunately, it requires being a LA +4 race. Fortunately, Changelings exist. Which means it's possible to learn to literally punch through armor, and that's just cool as hell.

[nedz]

Shadow Trickster
+2 DC on Illusion spells, and +2 Sneak.
Perfect for that Gnome Beguiler Swordsage you've always wanted to play.

[bean illus]

Hyena Tribe Hunter (Human) Gain +2 to trip and do not need combat expertise to take improved trip feat. +2 to hide.


Well, that's a straight up improvement.

Facto 3? With Improved trip and an enlarge potion, for a total bonus of ... +16?



Miser with magic (Dragonlance, CL 7) You can make a Spellcraft roll to retain the use of a spell after you cast it. The spellcraft DC is 10 +twice the spell's level. If you succeed, you managed to conserve enough magical energy, from this and other spells you have cast, that the spell (or spell slots for sorcerors) is not considered spent and may be used again. You may only use this ability on a number of spell levels equal to the ability score modifier appropriate to the type of spells you cast (charisma for sorceror or bard spells for example)
If you fail the roll by 5 or more, you spent insufficient energy to cast the spell at all. You lose the spell or the spell slot, and the spell has no effect.


Considering that a CL 9 caster could easily have 13 ranks, a +6 mod, and a +2 buff, I'd say that that's a good deal.

I assume that "number of spell levels equal to the ability score modifier" means daily? A munchkin reading could claim 'per casting' (a limited reading could mean total ever).



Enspell Familiar (Cl 1, ability to gain a familiar) You are always considered to be in contact with your familiar for the purposes of sharing spells. Any spell you cast on yourself also affects your familiar as long as it is within 1 mile of you.


Yeah, that's super nice.



Dreadful Wrath (Human, Kua-toa, planetouched)- When you charge, make a full attack, or cast a spell that either targets an enemy or includes an enemy in its area, you gain the frightful presence ability for that round. Each enemy within a 20-foot radius of you must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute. Regardless of its success or failure on the saving throw, any creature exposed to this effect is immune to your frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is an extraordinary morale effect.


A minute is forever in combat. And fear effects stack. The mooks are finished, ... and you're AoE is still effecting ... hopefully everyone.



EDIT: As for awesome feats: Mindsight from Lords of Madness. Especially good with 1 level of Mindbender. You have instant and perfect intel on the location, type, and INT score of all creatures within 100 feet of you. Sure you still have to pinpoint invisible targets, but this basically means you'll never get jumped on watch again.

It's a great feat, on a full caster in 9th+ level game.

I like Quick Reconnoiter on a scout. Though nobody has enough feats, i think free listen and spot every round (added to the reactivate check) is underrated, and gives a lot of security. The +2 initiative doesn't synergizes well.

Maybe pick it up with H-E paragon bonus feat, and have a +2 racial listen and spot. Follow with ruathar 2, for +2 unnamed listen and spot (and search). Maybe top it with SotMI 5, for another +5 racial listen, spot, search, and 1 more free check of either.
The build loses 2 caster levels, but that's not rare on a scout.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Fell Conspiracy (EoE) is a party-buffing feat that starts out so-so and gets much better as you level. First, the party can use Message at will with each other - not bad. Then, you all get 100' telepathy with each other and an untyped bonus to spot/listen equal to 2*[number of other participants], which can be very high. Eventually you all get immunity to flanking and the flat-footed condition.

The latter benefits do cost expensive material components, so it's more of an "adventuring day" feat.

[Jowgen]

I was recently reminded of the feat Steadfast Determination (PHB2). For a creature with high Con and no shortage of feats (it has Endurance as a prerequisite), it's amazing: the Tarrasque for example gets +10 to Will and means it'll effectively never fail a Fortitude save.

I feel you still under-estimate it's cool-ness by, like, at least 20%.

With sufficiently boosted Con saves, it is literally the only way in game to become flat out immune to a number of things. For example, ever heard of Voidstone (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone)™?

As for my own contribution, I submit Channel Charge.

At the cost of a feat, some UMD optimisation, and some spell-slots, you get to uses Wands, Staffs, and Scepters without expending charges.

This means unlimited access to otherwise prohibitively GP/exp expensive spells after one initial investment. Because why yes, I would like to use my 8th level spells slots to cast free Limited Wishes from my Scepter.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I feel you still under-estimate it's cool-ness by, like, at least 20%.

With sufficiently boosted Con saves, it is literally the only way in game to become flat out immune to a number of things. For example, ever heard of Voidstone (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone)™?

As for my own contribution, I submit Channel Charge.

At the cost of a feat, some UMD optimisation, and some spell-slots, you get to uses Wands, Staffs, and Scepters without expending charges.

This means unlimited access to otherwise prohibitively GP/exp expensive spells after one initial investment. Because why yes, I would like to use my 8th level spells slots to cast free Limited Wishes from my Scepter.


Indeed, with Void Stone, Steadfast Determination may become 20% cooler. That reminds me of that one Donald Duck comics where Arsin Lupène soaks his armor in an universal solvent (in everything but name the equivalent of a liquid annihilation sphere) and proceeds to destroy everything in his path until somebody trips him and he starts to fall through the ground without being able to stop.


For another feat that I like, there is Lady's Gambit (https://realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Lady~s_Gambit). For a martial, for which HP is little more than a number (you will get SoL'd before you are downed from HP loss), this is a very nice bonus, even stackable with Power Attack. If you need Iron Will for something else, you should consider this feat.

[H_H_F_F]

Elusive target (CW, req. Dodge, mobility) is probably my favorite tactical feat. Grants cool action economy (which gives you a reason to utilize mobility), a fun flavourful maneuver, and no-selling melee damage. The prereqs are tough, but I love it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Landlord, from the Stronghold Builder's Guide. I almost never hear about it, probably because everyone thinks, "Why spend a feat on a castle somewhere while I'm off adventuring elsewhere?" Except you have to choose a "stronghold" to apply the ridiculous amounts of money towards, and there's nothing about a stronghold that needs to be stationary; it just needs to qualify as a building or other livable space at one point or another. Take, for instance, a psychoactive skin of proteus. It allows the wearer to turn into objects if he so chooses, and buildings qualify. So spend that 800,000 gp upgrading that psychoactive skin! Or you could have a hollowed-out +1 sizing/morphing weapon (such as a hypodermic weapon, or something), and occasionally use it as a sleeping place when it's Colossal sized. +800,000 gp is a lot of money when applied to a weapon. Note that nothing about Landlord mentions that you have to use the money for fountains or outhouses or whatever, so feel free to use that money on a "stronghold" magic item to give it additional magic item properties, as per the MIC.

Combines well with Ancestral Relic from the BoED, which is another feat that not many people bring up. If you're Good, it's quite literally free money. Note that you don't have to use the party's loot to sacrifice to it; carry a portable altar with you, sit on top of an enemy's stronghold at night, and sacrifice it for the greater good of yourself. Buildings, fountains, outhouses, et al are stupidly expensive, after all.

[illyahr]

A feat from the Rokugan d20 books

Versatile: pick two skills. They are now class skills

[bean illus]

I was just looking at Power Critical. It grants a +4 to your critical confirmation ... and ... it stacks with itself. It cost weapon focus and BAB +4. Feats are valuable, but nothing sucks any worse than a crit that doesn't confirm. Double up on it.


It's cheap cost (many melee need weapon focus) hands it to a Fighter 4. Maybe power attack falchion (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, EWP kaorti, Cleave, Power Critical).

You know the deal. Double up on power critical at 6th, and a keen weapon at 8th. Maybe Iion totem, and 3 levels of warblade for a bit more crit confirmation, etc. You're criting at 30%ish, and confiming at 80%.

Maybe a level o Arcane Hunter ranger ACF, and favored critical, for stacking with keen, and doubling the crit range again.


Weapon Aptitude tosses most of it onto another weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was just looking at Power Critical. It grants a +4 to your critical confirmation ... and ... it stacks with itself. It cost weapon focus and BAB +4. Feats are valuable, but nothing sucks any worse than a crit that doesn't confirm. Double up on it.


It's cheap cost (many melee need weapon focus) hands it to a Fighter 4. Maybe power attack falchion (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, EWP kaorti, Cleave, Power Critical).

You know the deal. Double up on power critical at 6th, and a keen weapon at 8th. Maybe Iion totem, and 3 levels of warblade for a bit more crit confirmation, etc. You're criting at 30%ish, and confiming at 80%.

Maybe a level o Arcane Hunter ranger ACF, and favored critical, for stacking with keen, and doubling the crit range again.


Weapon Aptitude tosses most of it onto another weapon.Yes, but feats are valuable. You could be taking something absolutely fantastic, but spending multiple feats on confirming criticals (when you could stop at "just enough to be getting away with" and spending the rest of your feats on getting crits more often and adding tons of damage onto those crits) is a waste.

It's like how armor class gets less valuable the more you pump into it after a certain point. There's only so high it can get before further investment becomes massive expenditure for very little benefit.

[Saintheart]

Yes, but feats are valuable. You could be taking something absolutely fantastic, but spending multiple feats on confirming criticals (when you could stop at "just enough to be getting away with" and spending the rest of your feats on getting crits more often and adding tons of damage onto those crits) is a waste.

It's like how armor class gets less valuable the more you pump into it after a certain point. There's only so high it can get before further investment becomes massive expenditure for very little benefit.

Another alternative to losing the feat slot is wait for a Fighter dead level, take a level in Paladin (or suck up UMD), and buy wands of Bless Weapon, which outright automatically confirm all your critical threats. It even stacks with kaorti resin and Improved Critical, since neither of these are magical effects increasing the threat range of a weapon, but are feats and the natural weapon qualities of the item.

[bean illus]

Yes, but feats are valuable. You could be taking something absolutely fantastic, but spending multiple feats on confirming criticals (when you could stop at "just enough to be getting away with" and spending the rest of your feats on getting crits more often and adding tons of damage onto those crits) is a waste.

It's like how armor class gets less valuable the more you pump into it after a certain point. There's only so high it can get before further investment becomes massive expenditure for very little benefit.


Another alternative to losing the feat slot is wait for a Fighter dead level, take a level in Paladin (or suck up UMD), and buy wands of Bless Weapon, which outright automatically confirm all your critical threats. It even stacks with kaorti resin and Improved Critical, since neither of these are magical effects increasing the threat range of a weapon, but are feats and the natural weapon qualities of the item.

I almost pointed out in my post, that not every build is a good aligned character, and that the feat is for a low level campaign. I felt it would be redundant to say so, but apparently i should have.

I'm not going to claim that my sword is a castle.

But I'm sure that there are plenty of better feats out there somewhere.

[Biggus]

Hyena Tribe Hunter (Human) Gain +2 to trip and do not need combat expertise to take improved trip feat. +2 to hide.


Ooh, this lets you make a tripper build without needing Int 13, I'll be making a note of this one.


Fell Conspiracy (EoE) is a party-buffing feat that starts out so-so and gets much better as you level. First, the party can use Message at will with each other - not bad. Then, you all get 100' telepathy with each other and an untyped bonus to spot/listen equal to 2*[number of other participants], which can be very high. Eventually you all get immunity to flanking and the flat-footed condition.

The latter benefits do cost expensive material components, so it's more of an "adventuring day" feat.

That is a very nice feat for high-level characters, especially when they reach the level where 200GP is a fairly trivial amount of money.



As for my own contribution, I submit Channel Charge.

At the cost of a feat, some UMD optimisation, and some spell-slots, you get to uses Wands, Staffs, and Scepters without expending charges.

This means unlimited access to otherwise prohibitively GP/exp expensive spells after one initial investment. Because why yes, I would like to use my 8th level spells slots to cast free Limited Wishes from my Scepter.

So you're interpreting not using a charge as meaning you don't have to pay XP or GP costs? Can't see many DMs letting that one fly...

[bean illus]

So you're interpreting not using a charge as meaning you don't have to pay XP or GP costs? Can't see many DMs letting that one fly...

That's exactly what i thought.


Ooh, this lets you make a tripper build without needing Int 13, I'll be making a note of this one.

Not every tripper is a facto, but Int AND Str to trip is hard to pass up. The Int to initiative is really nice too.

But i love trippers. I'd be eager to see what you come up with, or collaborate.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So you're interpreting not using a charge as meaning you don't have to pay XP or GP costs? Can't see many DMs letting that one fly...

You have already paid XP and gp when creating the staff. You just do not use the charges, so these 50x exp investment become effectively infinite. I wouldn't see much problem with this, except when really abused. It is already pretty rare to use up all 50 charges of your staves.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not going to claim that my sword is a castle.If your sword really is your stronghold, because it does everything a stronghold does, how is treating it as what it is wrong?

Imagine it: A rounded riverine fantasy tower 50' tall, with crenellations at the top and windows strung around the outsides, with a spiral staircase winding around the outer edges next to the walls, with a new floor every 8' or so. To either side of the main tower, it has sweeping wings that are also hollowed out, allowing for barracks for soldiers, with a sealable entrance at ground level and windows with arrow slits that can be used to fire out of during an attack. Belowground, the riverine tower extends several additional hundred feet, and it flattens out, becoming a stacked set of 30' x 10' living spaces for anyone not stationed up in the barracks, all the way down to the bottom.

Sounds like a stronghold, doesn't it? And yet, it's a riverine +1 sizing weapon; the tower is the hilt, the crenelations are the pommel, the wide, sweeping wings are the crossguard (with a sealable entranceway embedded therein), and the hollowed-out, flattened area underground is the blade, stabbed into the earth prior to sizing it up.

I don't see why you can't have that as both a stronghold and a weapon. Giving it magic weapon enhancements can give it considerable utility and protection as a stronghold. Enhancement bonuses give it additional hit points and save bonuses, making it intelligent would give it resistances to attacks (such as disintegrate) and some spell-like abilities; imagine an intelligent tower that can cast prestidigitation at will to keep itself clean, heroes' feast 1/day to feed everyone who spends the night in it, invisibility to make the tower itself invisible, arcane lock on its own doors or on any other door it touches, or greater magic weapon to boost its saves against being targeted as both a weapon and as a building (along with the normal benefits of being a strong magical weapon) as examples.

Honestly? It sounds really, really awesome, to me.

[edit] Started a thread about it here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630153-3-P-Sizing-Sword-as-a-Stronghold-for-the-Landlord-Feat&p=25010351#post25010351

[The Viscount]

Staggering Strike from Complete Adventurer.

It requires sneak attack, but limiting your enemies to single actions is a big deal. Yes it only lasts 1 round, but sneak attacking an enemy every round to keep the debuff on is pretty straightforward.

[Jowgen]

So you're interpreting not using a charge as meaning you don't have to pay XP or GP costs? Can't see many DMs letting that one fly...

As Beni-Kujaku says:


You have already paid XP and gp when creating the staff. You just do not use the charges, so these 50x exp investment become effectively infinite. I wouldn't see much problem with this, except when really abused. It is already pretty rare to use up all 50 charges of your staves.

It's quite water-tight RAW/RAI wise. You don't pay component costs when using Spell-trigger items, those were already expended at item creation, and the feat lets you avoid expending those investments.

Now the biggest abuse potential lies in custom staffs, which are legal to create, but definitely an area where a DM may wish to place limits to prevent shenanigans. Aside from any spell being fair game (though shenanigans are needed to Channel Charge 9th level spells), it is possible to get a channel-chargeable Staff at laughably low cost.

While we could look for partially charged spell-trigger items of any variety to save a lot of money, Staffs come with this function built in (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041221a):


When a spell requires two or more charges, divide the base price by the number of charges required.

A staff of True Creation capable of generating x gp worth of stuff, crafted so that a single use takes 50 charges, costs a measily 1200 + x gp and 96 exp, according to math I did a while back.

Still, even with the above somehow banned, there is lots of fun things to do when spells cost you nothing after a 1 time investment.

[nedz]

I was just looking at Power Critical. It grants a +4 to your critical confirmation ... and ... it stacks with itself. It cost weapon focus and BAB +4. Feats are valuable, but nothing sucks any worse than a crit that doesn't confirm. Double up on it.


It's cheap cost (many melee need weapon focus) hands it to a Fighter 4. Maybe power attack falchion (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, EWP kaorti, Cleave, Power Critical).

You know the deal. Double up on power critical at 6th, and a keen weapon at 8th. Maybe Iion totem, and 3 levels of warblade for a bit more crit confirmation, etc. You're criting at 30%ish, and confiming at 80%.

Maybe a level o Arcane Hunter ranger ACF, and favored critical, for stacking with keen, and doubling the crit range again.


Weapon Aptitude tosses most of it onto another weapon.

But there's a spell for that:
Critical Strike (SpC p56) [Assassin 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer 1, Wizard 1]
A swift action gets you, when flanking, double critical range, +4 (insight) confirm and +1d6 damage.

[Biggus]

It's quite water-tight RAW/RAI wise. You don't pay component costs when using Spell-trigger items, those were already expended at item creation, and the feat lets you avoid expending those investments.

Now the biggest abuse potential lies in custom staffs, which are legal to create, but definitely an area where a DM may wish to place limits to prevent shenanigans. Aside from any spell being fair game (though shenanigans are needed to Channel Charge 9th level spells), it is possible to get a channel-chargeable Staff at laughably low cost.

While we could look for partially charged spell-trigger items of any variety to save a lot of money, Staffs come with this function built in (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041221a):



A staff of True Creation capable of generating x gp worth of stuff, crafted so that a single use takes 50 charges, costs a measily 1200 + x gp and 96 exp, according to math I did a while back.

Still, even with the above somehow banned, there is lots of fun things to do when spells cost you nothing after a 1 time investment.

I think "water-tight" is something of an exaggeration. The feat doesn't specify one way or the other whether you have to pay GP/XP costs when you do this, and the default assumption would be that you do, as you do in all other circumstances when you cast a spell which has those costs. Even if you can claim it's RAW (which is dubious) I'm almost 100% certain it's not RAI.

Example of why: you could buy a staff with Wish on its spell list and one charge remaining, and a few weeks later your entire party has a +5 inherent bonus to all stats for no cost. The potential for abuse is huge.


But there's a spell for that:
Critical Strike (SpC p56) [Assassin 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer 1, Wizard 1]
A swift action gets you, when flanking, double critical range, +4 (insight) confirm and +1d6 damage.

A well as this and the already mentioned Bless Weapon, there's also Dolorous Blow (SpC).

Still, Power Critical is worth taking if none of those are easily available to you, the Barbarian in the group I currently DM for has had good use out of it.

[Troacctid]

Mobile Spellcasting from CAd lets you take a full move as part of the standard action used to cast a spell, in addition to your normal move action. It's like Spring Attack, except for spells, and instead of moving up to your speed, you move twice your speed.

Silver Tongue from D318 lets you use Diplomacy checks to make people fall in love with you and/or cast single-target variants of good hope, crushing despair, and lesser confusion at will. That's just nonsense right there. As a combo, Practiced Binder lets you take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks and make rushed Diplomacy checks as a standard action with no penalty, in exchange for just one prequisite feat tax.

Spellstrike from DC Vol. 1 lets you add an extra material component to a spell to cause creatures damaged by it to fall prone. If blasters weren't already embarrassing the weapon users enough for you, how about handing them reliable mass tripping abilities with no spell slot adjustment?

Jungle Veteran from SoX makes you functionally immune to surprise.

[Malphegor]

Mercantile Background, purely as a character creation thing. So +300gp and then you get an interesting 1/month discount that there’s no obvious reason you didn’t have when buying your starting equipment.

So extra starting gold and a 25% off on all your starting equipment.

I used to just ignore that but it ultimately works out to being able to buy a lot of oil bombs at level 1 >:D

If your DM allows Mulhorandi Royal background too, you can mooch off your royal ancestry for another 200gp.

You’ve just about got enough to maybe make a solid headway on starting a DMG2 Business working out of a horse and cart. Which due to Mercantile Background your 25% extra money on sales (can sell stuff for 75% of its value rather than 50% probably affects your profit checks if you have a shop (I haven’t figured out how that works maths wise though, presumably going off the modifiers I doubt it’s more than +2 though), ultimately resulting in early on setting up relatively stable profit if you can make the profit checks (always make the party business partners).

Similarly Wanderer’s Diplomacy is interesting conceptually as it kinda depends on one’s DM’s approach to shops. Essentially it means that if you can’t find a item you want in a shop, you will find out where that item can be found. Essentially it forces a game to if it doesn’t have a Magic Mart that has all possible items Schrodinger’d into existence, it ultimately kinda does. Plus it lets you use your bluff skill instead of diplomacy for diplomacy checks from now on at the cost of the target being one step more hostile to you afterwards after ten minutes, handy for combat diplomancy if you find you put more points in bluff for feinting.

[Kalkra]

Hardened Criminal from City of Stormreach lets you take 10 on any one skill, and gives you immunity to Intimidate. In a similar vein, Arcane Mastery from Complete Arcane lets you take 10 on caster level checks.

[Crake]

Silver Tongue from D318 lets you use Diplomacy checks to make people fall in love with you and/or cast single-target variants of good hope, crushing despair, and lesser confusion at will. That's just nonsense right there. As a combo, Practiced Binder lets you take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks and make rushed Diplomacy checks as a standard action with no penalty, in exchange for just one prequisite feat tax.

Funnily enough, the ability naberious gives you is also called silver tongue.

[bean illus]

But there's a spell for that:
Critical Strike (SpC p56) [Assassin 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer 1, Wizard 1]
A swift action gets you, when flanking, double critical range, +4 (insight) confirm and +1d6 damage.



A well as this and the already mentioned Bless Weapon, there's also Dolorous Blow (SpC).

Still, Power Critical is worth taking if none of those are easily available to you, the Barbarian in the group I currently DM for has had good use out of it.

Do those spells stack? No?

Those are all good spells. If you have spells available, that's nice. But who has time to buff the melee every round?

Power Critical stacks. And it stacks with some other confirmation bonuses. And it's available early.

And it's available every swing. All damn day long.

It can theoretically make every threat crit.
Facto 1/ Warblade 3
Make up the difference with potions of fox's cunning, til you get there.

With Arcane Hunter and favored critical threatens 'all' spellcasters/etc at ... 12-20? 45%? Once you're swinging 2-3 times that's a lot of threats.

I'm still not convinced that there is no use for this feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm still not convinced that there is no use for this feat.There's not NO use for it, although I wouldn't suggest taking it more than once, or maybe twice if you're out of good feats to take at some point (which shouldn't happen outside of a Core-only game, and it's not available then, either).

It's not a good feat.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe some of the spell touched feats? Live my nightmare is one way to get diviners off your back.

[Troacctid]

Maybe some of the spell touched feats? Live my nightmare is one way to get diviners off your back.
How often do you have diviners on your back, though? That's the real question.

[bean illus]

There's not NO use for it, although I wouldn't suggest taking it more than once, or maybe twice if you're out of good feats to take at some point (which shouldn't happen outside of a Core-only game, and it's not available then, either).

It's not a good feat.

Well i know you like to live inside your castle sword, and cast 9th level spells, but some of us occasionally play melee characters at 6th level.

I know you're a better optimizer than i.
Do you know another way at 6th to get a bab +6, with a crit range of 12-20, a multiplier x4 or x5, and a confirmation of either 12, 16, or 22, on every swing?

I know that you're a better optimizer than i (did i already say that?), but if i wait to be a better optimizer than you, I'll never post anything.

DnD is a game. It's supposed to be fun. I thought this site was also supposed to be fun. It would be more fun for me, if i was allowed to have an opinion on what i like.

I spent hours today researching a build, but now I'm afraid to even show it, or ask for help.


Still, Power Critical is worth taking if none of those are easily available to you, the Barbarian in the group I currently DM for has had good use out of it.

Thank you, Biggus, for being nice to me.

[H_H_F_F]

Well i know you like to live inside your castle sword, and cast 9th level spells, but some of us occasionally play melee characters at 6th level.

I know you're a better optimizer than i.
Do you know another way at 6th to get a bab +6, with a crit range of 12-20, a multiplier x4 or x8, and a confirmation of either 12, 16, or 22, on every swing?

I know that you're a better optimizer than i (did i already say that?), but if i wait to be a better optimizer than you, I'll never post anything.

DnD is a game. It's supposed to be fun. I thought this site was also supposed to be fun. It would be more fun for me, if i was allowed to have an opinion on what i like.

I spent hours today researching a build, but now I'm afraid to even show it, or ask for help.



Thank you, Biggus, for being nice to me.

Oh, man. This seems like a tone issue. I don't think anyone was trying to put you down. I also think in low-op games with Core + 3-4 completes (and these games happen!), power critical is a fine feat. One of my players just took it a level ago.

I think Max was simply arguing against the effectiveness of the feat in a higher op environment, because there are other options doing similar things more effectively. I can't speak for him, but to me it didn't read like he was trying to silence you or put you down.

Tone is hard to read on the internet, and I think you both read each other wrong. Max read you as talking about the best options for crit-fishers, and responded purely on the factual level, while you were actually talking about your likes and dislikes, and therefore read him as responding on the emotional level.

You should share your build, for sure. In my opinion, you should also take some time to breathe and let go. I appreciate you, and I think so does everyone else.

[Saintheart]

Well i know you like to live inside your castle sword, and cast 9th level spells, but some of us occasionally play melee characters at 6th level.

I know you're a better optimizer than i.
Do you know another way at 6th to get a bab +6, with a crit range of 12-20, a multiplier x4 or x8, and a confirmation of either 12, 16, or 22, on every swing?

I know that you're a better optimizer than i (did i already say that?), but if i wait to be a better optimizer than you, I'll never post anything.

DnD is a game. It's supposed to be fun. I thought this site was also supposed to be fun. It would be more fun for me, if i was allowed to have an opinion on what i like.

I spent hours today researching a build, but now I'm afraid to even show it, or ask for help.


Number one: nobody's saying you can't have an opinion. On what you like, or what you don't like. The one thing to bear in mind when posting out here is that sometimes people don't stop to think how a particular post might be taken by the person receiving it (not pointing at anyone here, I might add). People accidentally annoy other people all the time. There are lots of suggestions one can make to solve this problem, but the simplest and the only effective solution I've ever had is this: when you reach a field full of nettles, you can either spend all day long cutting the nettles out, or you can make yourself a pair of sandals and proceed on. That, and take up offence with a person by PM, and failing that, with a mod.

Number two: there's a certain reflex reaction whenever one suggests spending a feat on something that doesn't scale and provides a one-time bonus to a situational roll, i.e. a critical confirmation roll. That's only born out of the fact that feats are limited, but gold and spells are not. Hence why there's a certain reluctance to agree that something like Power Critical is necessarily a good choice. That said, if you've got the space, and the character works for you, then go ahead, have fun! It would be a tragedy if anyone ever wound up thinking that there's only one way to build a character. There's a myriad of tables, a myriad of balance options, and a myriad of ways to do this stuff, and it doesn't all have to be optimised to the point that the levels squeak when you cast a spell.

Number three: let's see the build!

All of that being said:

- Critical Strike and Warblade 3's bonuses to critical confirmation rolls don't stack; they're both insight bonuses.

- 3.0's Favored Critical was revised into Favored Power Attack (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x), and now has nothing to do with critical hits, according to WOTC itself, so that engine's dead. No increases to threat range available there.

- A sneaky alternative available up at BAB +9 is to pick up Murderous Intent from Elder Evils - automatic critical confirmation against a favored enemy. Also smashes it with a sort of slow effect if it fails a Will save.

- Getting a 12-20 range isn't quite as simple as it looks without magical assistance, particularly down at BAB +6. Pretty well as far as default WOTC weapons get you is the 18-20 threat range, which keen gets down to 15-20, but which you need 3.0 rules if you're going to try and stack Improved Critical with it.

- Not sure how you're doubling the critical threat multiplier, because critical threat range is not the same concept. I don't know of any means by which the multiplier is doubled under 3.5, and I've had a bit of a look. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ex0HMTfZFb8Ra8-Js-sTioUACEx1rGr3HvUXJI_MYpM/edit#heading=h.h17fdxii8gtu)

- Alternative feats: Mark of Avernus (Fiendish Codex 2), which gives you automatic confirmation on critical threats and a +4 to attack and damage, so long as it's a readied action.

- Alternative magic items: make your weapon out of Abyssal Bloodiron (Planar Handbook) for 10,000 gp extra and a +4 on critical confirmation. For bonus points, it synergises perfectly with being a Pitspawned weapon (DMG 2) which gives you another +2 to critical confirmations.

[St Fan]

I see Staggering Strike was already mentioned...

But I feel the need to mention Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike from Drow of the Underdark.

Ambush feats are generally underwhelming, but those two are quite nice, especially used in tandem. Unless the opponent is immune to pain and fear, on a successful sneak attack you can have it both sickened and shaken for 1 round. Sure it reduces a bit your sneak attack damage, but there is no saving throw!

Needless to say, on any round with multiple attacks this is going to be included the the first strike, using whatever trick possible to get a sneak attack. Then, sickened and shaken stacking, the opponent has a -4 to saving throws and to ability checks, greatly increasing the chance of a follow-up trip attack and/or Stunning Fist.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I actually agree that it's not reasonable to compare Power Critical to, we'll say, an interesting reading of the Landlord feat. But for a feat to be "awesome," it should compare favorably to some baseline increase in effectiveness.

So let's compare Power Critical to a feat that provides +1 to hit (basically, imagine you could take Weapon Focus again). For this exercise we'll assume a reasonable level of investment in crits: Someone wielding a falchion or scimitar with Keen or Imp Crit. This provides a threat range of 15-20 X2. Call our base chance of hitting a (assume 0.25<a<0.95 to give power critical a chance of being useful - outside of this range either your improved threat range is wasted on a miss, or you don't need bonuses to hit), our average baseline damage b (assume no bonus damage dice), and our chance of attacking a crit-vulnerable creature c. I'll judge the two by average damage per attack, which (again charitably for power critical) ignores the possibility of overkill damage.

Base damage per attack is a*b+0.3*a*c*b; the first term is the average non-critical damage, and the second term is the expected additional damage from crits.
With power critical, damage per attack is a*b+0.3*(a+0.2)*c*b.
With another +1 to hit, damage per attack is (a+0.05)*b+0.3*(a+0.05)*c*b.

The difference between average damage with power critical and average damage with +1 to hit is
0.3*0.15*c*b - 0.05*b = 0.05*b*(0.9*c-1) < 0

With those assumptions, the expected value of taking power critical instead of something that provides +1 to hit is 0.05*b*(0.9*c-1) < 0, meaning it doesn't matter what the base damage is, or what your baseline chance of hitting is. Even if you never encounter crit-immune things (c=1), the baseline of +1 to hit offers more damage, which makes Power Critical not so great of a feat.

"But," you say, "I already took Weapon Focus to qualify for Power Critical. I can't take it again." Well, you could take Knowledge Devotion and invest a single rank in each creature identifying skill. That gets you at least +1 to hit and +1 damage with any weapon, possibly more (up to +5/+5 with investment). Or you could take a number of other feats that add at least +1 to hit (such as Shape Soulmeld: Lucky Dice). Or you could choose some feat that does something better; after all, I chose +1 to hit because it is a low benchmark. If anything I'd be tempted to just merge weapon focus and power critical to make it slightly more competitive with the top-end attack-focused feats.

The other main objection is, "What if I'm playing a dedicated crit fisher?" Yeah, you might play a Disciple of Dispater with Lightning Mace TWFing keen aptitude (mace) scimitars with Kaorti resin and getting 12-20 X4 crits. In that very specific case, Power Critical could be a decent cherry on top... if you can fit it in after other prerequisites. But (a) Lightning Maces makes you care a bit less about actually landing the crit, and (b) we're now in high-op land, so it's probably still better to spend that feat on some combination of defense, initiative, detection, and actually getting a roll of 12 to hit most enemies.

[Saintheart]

I actually agree that it's not reasonable to compare Power Critical to, we'll say, an interesting reading of the Landlord feat. But for a feat to be "awesome," it should compare favorably to some baseline increase in effectiveness.

So let's compare Power Critical to a feat that provides +1 to hit (basically, imagine you could take Weapon Focus again). For this exercise we'll assume a reasonable level of investment in crits: Someone wielding a falchion or scimitar with Keen or Imp Crit. This provides a threat range of 15-20 X2. Call our base chance of hitting a (assume 0.25<a<0.95 to give power critical a chance of being useful - outside of this range either your improved threat range is wasted on a miss, or you don't need bonuses to hit), our average baseline damage b (assume no bonus damage dice), and our chance of attacking a crit-vulnerable creature c. I'll judge the two by average damage per attack, which (again charitably for power critical) ignores the possibility of overkill damage.

Base damage per attack is a*b+0.3*a*c*b; the first term is the average non-critical damage, and the second term is the expected additional damage from crits.
With power critical, damage per attack is a*b+0.3*(a+0.2)*c*b.
With another +1 to hit, damage per attack is (a+0.05)*b+0.3*(a+0.05)*c*b.

The difference between average damage with power critical and average damage with +1 to hit is
0.3*0.15*c*b - 0.05*b = 0.05*b*(0.9*c-1) < 0

With those assumptions, the expected value of taking power critical instead of something that provides +1 to hit is 0.05*b*(0.9*c-1) < 0, meaning it doesn't matter what the base damage is, or what your baseline chance of hitting is. Even if you never encounter crit-immune things (c=1), the baseline of +1 to hit offers more damage, which makes Power Critical not so great of a feat.

"But," you say, "I already took Weapon Focus to qualify for Power Critical. I can't take it again." Well, you could take Knowledge Devotion and invest a single rank in each creature identifying skill. That gets you at least +1 to hit and +1 damage with any weapon, possibly more (up to +5/+5 with investment). Or you could take a number of other feats that add at least +1 to hit (such as Shape Soulmeld: Lucky Dice). Or you could choose some feat that does something better; after all, I chose +1 to hit because it is a low benchmark. If anything I'd be tempted to just merge weapon focus and power critical to make it slightly more competitive with the top-end attack-focused feats.

The other main objection is, "What if I'm playing a dedicated crit fisher?" Yeah, you might play a Disciple of Dispater with Lightning Mace TWFing keen aptitude (mace) scimitars with Kaorti resin and getting 12-20 X4 crits. In that very specific case, Power Critical could be a decent cherry on top... if you can fit it in after other prerequisites. But (a) Lightning Maces makes you care a bit less about actually landing the crit, and (b) we're now in high-op land, so it's probably still better to spend that feat on some combination of defense, initiative, detection, and actually getting a roll of 12 to hit most enemies.

Worth noting here that on a quick pass Disciple of Dispater won't work with kaorti resin, since the DoD requires that you use iron or steel weapons.

However, assuming a goliath greathammer, you could pull a 9-20 threat range with a x4 modifier and Improved Critical. Nothing required but the EWP for the Greathammer, DoD's prereqs of Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Disciple of Darkness, and finally Improved Critical. That assumes:
19-20 - Greathammer
17-20 - Iron Power 1
15-20 - Iron Power 2
13-20 - Improved Critical (if Improved Critical doesn't just double the lot. If it does, it's a 9-20 x4.)

Which leads me to my next question. Let's assume a 15-20 x4 threat range, which is doable pretty easily with kaorti resin and a keen falchion. Presumably your expected damage from a critical hit is at least twice what it was under a 15-20 x2 critical threat range. How does the math work then?

Also, thinking aloud here, the value of critical confirmation becomes greater whenever the critical multiplier increases above x2, because without a critical confirmation, you're not getting the "something for nothing" which is the difference between a x2 multiplier and a x4 multiplier.

Let's recall that a critical hit requires two attack rolls: the critical threat, and the critical confirmation. These are usually at the same modifier, per the rules.
A critical threat being scored, by definition, is a hit. No matter whether the confirmation roll succeeds or fails you do one iteration of expected damage - the normal weapon damage outside a critical hit.

When you have a x2 multiplier, you are actually just making another attack roll to see if you add another iteration of damage. You've got one already from the critical threat - which, if scored, is a hit, and one iteration of expected damage is done - and one for the confirmation roll, which, if scored, provides a second iteration of expected damage, because you roll your damage a second time. In that sense, a critical confirmation roll, where the multiplier is x2, is not that much different to just another attack roll in normal combat. Either way, you're still rolling the d20 again for an iteration of expected weapon damage.

However: the moment your multiplier goes above x2, the confirmation roll assumes more importance. If your multiplier is x3, then with a successful critical confirmation roll you pick up two iterations of expected damage for the one attack roll that the critical confirmation represents. On a critical multiplier of x3, you roll your damage three times: one for the hit from scoring a critical threat, and then twice for the additional critical damage. You only need to succeed on one attack roll for those two extra iterations of weapon damage, it's quite literally double or nothing.

It's even more significant on a critical multiplier of x4. If your critical confirmation roll succeeds, you pick up three additional iterations of expected damage for one attack roll. Since your potential "loss" of damage is much higher should that confirmation roll fail - it's triple or nothing - it would appear to make sense to raise the odds of a successful critical confirmation roll. Because in a x3 or x4 weapon you're picking up iterations of free damage which don't require additional submissions to the will of the d20, and accordingly you want to raise the odds of success on that sort of attack roll. With a x2 weapon, it's much less significant to have bonuses to the critical confirmation roll because your potential loss out of missing the critical confirmation is much less.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Once you get into higher multipliers it's time to worry about overkill. But ignoring that, if you threatened at 15-20 X4 then I believe power critical would be better than +1 to hit for a reasonable range of c (% of enemies vulnerable to crits), even if it would still lag behind the truly awesome attack-modifying feats.

[Particle_Man]

I like stackable feats from a DM perspective because then you can do a quick NPC by taking a feat multiple times and done. So I am liking Power Critical from that perspective. I was using Toughness before!

[Zarvistic]

Not sure if this feat has ever been reprinted different than in Dragon 315, but Adventurous Explorer always felt super busted to me. Especially considering it's just a single regional feat with no further build investment: It lets you take your readied action whenever you want. :eek:

[PanosIs]

Not sure if this feat has ever been reprinted different than in Dragon 315, but Adventurous Explorer always felt super busted to me. Especially considering it's just a single regional feat with no further build investment: It lets you take your readied action whenever you want. :eek:

I have it in my list of fun stuff, but you're still losing initiative each time you ready an action, eventually you'll have lost an entire turn and that sucks. You can alleviate that with Expert Timing from Kingdoms of Kalamar which says you don't lose initiative when you ready, but you've still given up two feats for the ability to be reactive.

[Zarvistic]

I have it in my list of fun stuff, but you're still losing initiative each time you ready an action, eventually you'll have lost an entire turn and that sucks. You can alleviate that with Expert Timing from Kingdoms of Kalamar which says you don't lose initiative when you ready, but you've still given up two feats for the ability to be reactive.
I suppose so, but it's not like you'll have to ready every turn. I find it to do a lot for one feat, or at least the idea of it cause I never had a chance to use it. Your suggestion makes it even crazier in my mind, I'd definitely take both those two feats if I had the chance to in a game.

[PanosIs]

I suppose so, but it's not like you'll have to ready every turn. I find it to do a lot for one feat, or at least the idea of it cause I never had a chance to use it. Your suggestion makes it even crazier in my mind, I'd definitely take both those two feats if I had the chance to in a game.

I think it's quite good design honestly, although, at least each feat on its own - the combination might end up being too strong.

Personally I really like feats like these that change the way a character is played in a substantial fashion.

[PanosIs]

I guess I might as well throw in a couple from my list of stuff.


Heretic of the FaithPower of Faerun: The mechanical effect of exchanging one of your domains for any domain that exists regardless of your deity is quite useful, and the feat is overflowing with flavor and opportunities for cool roleplaying.
Insightful DivinationComplete Mage: If you get some of the more decent Divination spells this often constitutes a very substantial bonus to initiative. The bonus on saves is just icing on the cake.
Magic of the LandRaces of the Wild: Adds a minor healing rider to all spells cast in a natural setting. At 2 points per spell level it's not much, but it's for the entire party, available to arcane casters and has minimal prerequisites. In a party of four, getting a free 24 hit points every time you cast Haste isn't bad.
Scorpion's GraspSandstorm: Pretty much a must for grapple builds in my opinion. Getting improved grab never was so easy.
Spirit SenseHeroes of Horror: You get to talk to the recently deceased, which means you can negotiate with them, I find that people are more willing to barter when their life is already forfeit.


A couple of my favorites from Dragon Magazine are:


Divine SorceryDragon 343: One feat nets you a domain power, which is often useful, and one spell from that domains spell list as a spell known. Get your Divine Power on a gish, your Dismissal to qualify for Sacred Exorcist early or any number of other things.
Initiate of Obad-HaiDragon 342: Meant for clerics, getting spontaneous casting of all SNA spells is quite good. My favorite combination however is to go Conjurer Wizard with Southern Magician and this feat to get the best of both worlds.
Supremely ConfidentDragon 335: You get a free demoralize whenever you successfully critically strike, very nice.

[Kalkra]

Worth noting here that on a quick pass Disciple of Dispater won't work with kaorti resin, since the DoD requires that you use iron or steel weapons.

I think an item only need to have a little bit of kaorti resin to get the x4, but I could be wrong about that.

[bean illus]

This seems like a tone issue.

Tone is hard to read on the internet, and I think you both read each other wrong.


Tone IS hard to read on the internet, and it seems as if some folk may have colored my comments as darker than i intended.

So first, i want to openly apologize for not being more careful. I find it important to be polite on the internet, and in the playground.


That, and take up offence with a person by PM
I would prefer to de-escalate asap, but i want to mention that I'm not sure i agree with this advice. People who are sarcastic or abusive often see nothing wrong with their behavior, and those who do so in public will only continue to do so in private.

Hopefully that's the end of that, and it won't be magnified any more than it is.




Number two: there's a certain reflex reaction whenever one suggests spending a feat on something that doesn't scale and provides a one-time bonus to a situational roll, i.e. a critical confirmation roll.

Well it does sorta scale. Sorta.
On a crit focused build, every aspect that increases the crit runs through the confirmation. So increasing the range kinda scales up the power of the confirmation. (Oh, i see you mentioned that below)



- 3.0's Favored Critical was revised into Favored Power Attack (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x), and now has nothing to do with critical hits, according to WOTC itself, so that engine's dead. No increases to threat range available there.


Well, that's the end of that idea (at least officially, and at most tables). Thanks




- A sneaky alternative available up at BAB +9 is to pick up Murderous Intent from Elder Evils - automatic critical confirmation against a favored enemy. Also smashes it with a sort of slow effect if it fails a Will save.

Nice.



- Getting a 12-20 range isn't quite as simple as it looks without magical assistance, particularly down at BAB +6. Pretty well as far as default WOTC weapons get you is the 18-20 threat range, which keen gets down to 15-20, but which you need 3.0 rules if you're going to try and stack Improved Critical with it.

- Not sure how you're doubling the critical threat multiplier, because critical threat range is not the same concept. I don't know of any means by which the multiplier is doubled under 3.5, and I've had a bit of a look. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ex0HMTfZFb8Ra8-Js-sTioUACEx1rGr3HvUXJI_MYpM/edit#heading=h.h17fdxii8gtu)

Those difficulties are why i find the combo interesting in a low level campaign.

How's RUBY NIGHTMARE BLADE work?
I was reading it as "double melee damage", AND "If your strike is a critical hit, you stack the multipliers as normal". Are you reading it as 'but/or' if you crit?

[QUOTE=Saintheart;25011991]
- Alternative magic items: make your weapon out of Abyssal Bloodiron (Planar Handbook) for 10,000 gp extra and a +4 on critical confirmation. For bonus points, it synergises perfectly with being a Pitspawned weapon (DMG 2) which gives you another +2 to critical confirmations.

I've thought about those, and was researching whether one need be evil. But that combinations not available at E6.



The other main objection is, "What if I'm playing a dedicated crit fisher?" Yeah, you might play a Disciple of Dispater with Lightning Mace TWFing keen aptitude (mace) scimitars with Kaorti resin and getting 12-20 X4 crits.

I've admitted many times that Power Critical was a better feat at an E6-9 campaign. DoD build is E10-14, and already needs 3 feats.
So, yeah, if that's what you want to do, but the comparison isn't one i was making.


Once you get into higher multipliers it's time to worry about overkill.
But ignoring that, if you threatened at 15-20 X4 then I believe power critical would be better than +1 to hit for a reasonable range of c (% of enemies vulnerable to crits), even if it would still lag behind the truly awesome attack-modifying feats.

Overkill is a valid point, and one i hadn't considered.


I think an item only need to have a little bit of kaorti resin to get the x4, but I could be wrong about that.

I wouldn't allow DoD and kaorti. That seems to invalidate the point of both rules. Just my opinion.

[Debatra]

I think "water-tight" is something of an exaggeration. The feat doesn't specify one way or the other whether you have to pay GP/XP costs when you do this, and the default assumption would be that you do, as you do in all other circumstances when you cast a spell which has those costs. Even if you can claim it's RAW (which is dubious) I'm almost 100% certain it's not RAI.

Example of why: you could buy a staff with Wish on its spell list and one charge remaining, and a few weeks later your entire party has a +5 inherent bonus to all stats for no cost. The potential for abuse is huge.

How is it not water-tight RAW? As mentioned, you only spend GP/XP when creating the item, not when using it. If you make a staff of Wish, you've already spent 250,000 XP (in addition to the normal cost of creating a staff with a 9th-level spell). You then proceed to spend zero XP when using it.

Yes, the potential for abuse is huge, but that doesn't make something not RAW. Pun-Pun is RAW-legal.


Do those spells stack? No?

Bless Weapon and Dolorous Blow don't need to stack with anything. They make threats auto-confirm (only against Evil creatures for Bless Weapon, but still). DB also doubles the weapon's threat range.


Those are all good spells. If you have spells available, that's nice. But who has time to buff the melee every round?

Critical Strike may only last one round, but Bless Weapon lasts one minute per level, and Dolorous Blow lasts ten per level.


Power Critical stacks. And it stacks with some other confirmation bonuses. And it's available early.

Power Critical requires 4 BAB, meaning it's the same level as Bless Weapon and only one level ahead of Dolorous Blow.


And it's available every swing. All damn day long.

It can theoretically make every threat crit.
Facto 1/ Warblade 3
Make up the difference with potions of fox's cunning, til you get there.

With Arcane Hunter and favored critical threatens 'all' spellcasters/etc at ... 12-20? 45%? Once you're swinging 2-3 times that's a lot of threats.

I'm still not convinced that there is no use for this feat.

"No" use? Absolutely not. There's plenty of use for it.

[Thunder999]

I guess I might as well throw in a couple from my list of stuff.


Heretic of the FaithPower of Faerun: The mechanical effect of exchanging one of your domains for any domain that exists regardless of your deity is quite useful, and the feat is overflowing with flavor and opportunities for cool roleplaying.
Insightful DivinationComplete Mage: If you get some of the more decent Divination spells this often constitutes a very substantial bonus to initiative. The bonus on saves is just icing on the cake.
Magic of the LandRaces of the Wild: Adds a minor healing rider to all spells cast in a natural setting. At 2 points per spell level it's not much, but it's for the entire party, available to arcane casters and has minimal prerequisites. In a party of four, getting a free 24 hit points every time you cast Haste isn't bad.
Scorpion's GraspSandstorm: Pretty much a must for grapple builds in my opinion. Getting improved grab never was so easy.
Spirit SenseHeroes of Horror: You get to talk to the recently deceased, which means you can negotiate with them, I find that people are more willing to barter when their life is already forfeit.



Insightful Divination seems pretty cool, pity about the horrible prerequisites though, spell focus (Divination) is pretty much only helping your scrying and being a diviner just doesn't seem worth it when spontaneous divination exists.

[loky1109]

Twist the Knife.
When you want create enemy NPC with scythe or axe and not to be afraid of suddenly double natural 20.

[Kitsuneymg]

I think an item only need to have a little bit of kaorti resin to get the x4, but I could be wrong about that.

If you play at one of those “everything from 3.0 that isn’t expressly overwritten or banned is allowed” tables, a mercurial greatsword is it’s own exotic weapon that has a x4 multiplier. I can’t remember if it had the same threat range, but hey, it might help make your crit dreams come true

[Saintheart]

How's RUBY NIGHTMARE BLADE work?
I was reading it as "double melee damage", AND "If your strike is a critical hit, you stack the multipliers as normal". Are you reading it as 'but/or' if you crit?

And there's one I haven't looked at, so I can at least go and document it!

I think what's going on here is the same debate as what happens you get a critical hit on a mounted charge attack.

One reading is that you double your damage first and then apply a critical hit to it.

Another - which I guess is the one you're thinking about - is that you roll up the critical damage and then double that.

The third, which is the UnFun one and sadly I think it's the one they were referring to here given the references to stacking the multipliers normally, is that because a critical hit with Ruby Nightmare Blade is doubling doubled damage, it's covered by the same general rule in 3.5 that a double of a double is a triple. That is, if you make a critical hit with Ruby Nightmare Blade, in effect the multiplier on the critical hit is increased by one - a x2 becomes a x3, and so on. That is, you roll one more iteration of weapon damage. But it's still an increase in critical multiplier in effect, so, still worth a mention.

[bean illus]

Bless Weapon and Dolorous Blow don't need to stack with anything. They make threats auto-confirm (only against Evil creatures for Bless Weapon, but still). DB also doubles the weapon's threat range.

Critical Strike may only last one round, but Bless Weapon lasts one minute per level, and Dolorous Blow lasts ten per level.

Power Critical requires 4 BAB, meaning it's the same level as Bless Weapon and only one level ahead of Dolorous Blow.


I love Bless Weapon, and use it on clerics. But it's only available to cleric 3 with glory domain, paladin 6, and a few prcs, most who get it later. Most who must be good. Many who have their own tax.

In most all cases, it's only available 2 times a day, at first. Later it becomes fairly available to clerics of glory (and chameleons), but unless you're also casting divine power, then you lose BAB.

It's a great spell, but you have to build around it, to use it all day. And it isn't easily available to most builds.

I'm seeing Dolorous Blow as 1 min/level? And 5 levels of wiz/sorc. It's cetainly a great spell. But unless you have a caster who want's to spend all their 3rd level slots buffing you ... , or your a wiz/sorc yourself ... . Anyway it has its own build tax.

As I've said, what intrigues me is, power critical's availability to create a crit build at low levels.



"No" use? Absolutely not. There's plenty of use for it.

Several folk have opined so.

I may still ask for help using it in a build.

[Particle_Man]

Multiple copies of Oil of Bless Weapon aren’t too expensive at high levels.

[Troacctid]

A sacred scabbard is the usual way to bless your weapon. Only 4400 gp to bless weapon 3/day as a swift action.

If your game doesn't use MIC, then that's even better, because it means you can get a blessed weapon from BoED, which sports a continual bless weapon effect.

[Particle_Man]

Another feat I like that is fairly obscure: Midnight Metamagic. Nice for giving a use of metamagic without increasing spell level. Nicer for being the only incarnum feat that releases its essentia back into a character’s pool after the spell is cast, instead of keeping it locked away for 24 hours.

Shape Soulmeld is great but I think it is fairly well-known.

[bean illus]

A sacred scabbard is the usual way to bless your weapon. Only 4400 gp to bless weapon 3/day as a swift action.

If your game doesn't use MIC, then that's even better, because it means you can get a blessed weapon from BoED, which sports a continual bless weapon effect.

3 times a day for one swing?
4,400 is super cheap at higher levels, but below 6th it's alot. Above a certain point, one could carry several.

Is the one in BoED overwritten by MIC?
If not what's the cost?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Oh, here're two I forgot.

Mercurial Strike - This feat is an absolute gem for people using Iaijutsu Focus, and still quite good if you're just using Sneak Attack. Whenever someone provokes an AoO (and you're unarmed), draw a weapon and make an opportunity attack against which they are flatfooted. Best paired with Robilar's Gambit or perhaps Karmic Strike.

Shorten Grip - Not to be confused with the similar-but-usually-worse Shorten Haft, this lets you use a reach weapon as if it didn't have reach. No action cost (unlike Shorten Haft), but you have a -2 on the attack roll. Already nice if you don't want to shell out for enchanted Spiked Gauntlets in addition to your enchanted reach weapon, but my favorite use is actually with Eldritch Glaive. (Admittedly slightly questionable, but I think it fits well within the Eldritch Glaive's rules).

[Troacctid]

3 times a day for one swing?
For one minute!


Is the one in BoED overwritten by MIC?
If not what's the cost?
Can't be overridden by MIC if your campaign doesn't use MIC! :smallbiggrin:

It's a +1.

[Anthrowhale]

On the subject of critical hits, the spell "Sense Weakness" is nice because there is no limit on critical hit riders as per Bless Weapon or Dolorous Blow and the long duration implies it will be useful.

Wrt feats,

Serenity (Dragon Compendium) (use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Divine Grace, Smite, Turn Undead) on an Archivist/Prestige Paladin who has learned Owl's Insight (wisdom bonus scaling with caster level) is ... yikes. Combine with a Monk's Belt and Intuitive Attack for even more yikes.

Double Team (Dragon Compendium) makes flanking for Sneak Attack easy with a buddy and the prereq (Combat Reflexes) is useful anyways.

Adaptable Flanker (PHB II) with reach allows you to self-flank for one additional feat.

Allied Defense (Shining South) can give a dodge AC bonus of +20 to the entire party in combination with Improved Combat Expertise.

Power Throw combines well with the Weak Spot and Palm Throw class features of a Master Thrower while leaving melee attack rolls (from opportunity attacks for example) unaffected.

[bean illus]

For one minute!

Can't be overridden by MIC if your campaign doesn't use MIC! :smallbiggrin:

It's a +1.

Wow. 3 times per day for 1 min, for 4,400 gp ... . You really only need one of them, or 2 if random encounters etc. The only downside i see is dispells, and AMF.

No alignment restrictions?

The BoED version would feel like cheating, at least here. But the MIC version is so good (and doesn't affect limits on the weapon), that one doesn't need the BoED version.


On the subject of critical hits, the spell "Sense Weakness" is nice because there is no limit on critical hit riders as per Bless Weapon or Dolorous Blow and the long duration implies it will be useful.

Another nice point is it's lack of exclusionary requirements, like particular domains/etc, and early availability to spamming.



Serenity (Dragon Compendium) (use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Divine Grace, Smite, Turn Undead) on an Archivist/Prestige Paladin who has learned Owl's Insight (wisdom bonus scaling with caster level) is ... yikes. Combine with a Monk's Belt and Intuitive Attack for even more yikes.

Nice. It also allows any cleric/prestige paladin gish to dump Cha. The ordained champion smite is Cha times per day, and no alignment restriction.



Allied Defense (Shining South) can give a dodge AC bonus of +20 to the entire party in combination with Improved Combat Expertise.


... i guess the whole party takes both feats? It seems I've heard that before.

[Anthrowhale]

... i guess the whole party takes both feats? It seems I've heard that before.
That would be overkill---you don't need AC 100.

Typically, just one high-BAB character can take Combat Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise/Allied Defense to put a party into a 'win' state for melee AC with monsters. Think of it as party members doing whatever they normally do for AC, but then adding 20 to it, which is almost always enough to shut down melee monster attacks. (If you design for it, the high BAB character dumping BAB for Allied Defense can still contribute in combat as well through touch attacks.)

[Zarvistic]

Re Allied Defense: There is also the golden cup paladin sub which I think would allow you to add it once more to a single ally in this same action.
The feat Defensive Opportunist seems like it should work to offset the attack penalty on aoos. Not too sure tho.

[Zombulian]

Speaking of awesome feats people forget about, I’ve forgotten one. Isn’t there a feat that allows you to substitute your own caster level for a magic item when you use it?

[St Fan]

Has Truebond (from Dungeon Master's Guide II) been mentioned?

Besides giving you a special ability depending on the ritual (and there are a variety of them, so you'll certainly find one useful for your build), there is also the fact it gives you locate object at will on the bonded item.

Besides making it much harder for you to lose your most prized possession, you can also uses this as a kind of "tracking device", slipping a small item inside the possessions of creature or a vehicle you want to keep track off.

I'm thinking about using it on a dagger with the magic property that it get stuck in the creature it scores a hit against, (can't remember the name now), so it can also works on a monster you're tracking.

[bean illus]

That would be overkill---you don't need AC 100.

Typically, just one high-BAB character can take Combat Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise/Allied Defense to put a party into a 'win' state for melee AC with monsters.

I had missed the "Improved" part of your combat expertise comment.

[H_H_F_F]

That would be overkill---you don't need AC 100.

Typically, just one high-BAB character can take Combat Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise/Allied Defense to put a party into a 'win' state for melee AC with monsters. Think of it as party members doing whatever they normally do for AC, but then adding 20 to it, which is almost always enough to shut down melee monster attacks. (If you design for it, the high BAB character dumping BAB for Allied Defense can still contribute in combat as well through touch attacks.)

They would all have to be adjacent, though. You usually don't want your wizard in that range. Is there an obvious way to get over that issue?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

They would all have to be adjacent, though. You usually don't want your wizard in that range. Is there an obvious way to get over that issue?

If the person granting AC is large enough, just keep the enemies on one side and the squishies on the other side and it'll still be quite a distance.

[Anthrowhale]

They would all have to be adjacent, though. You usually don't want your wizard in that range. Is there an obvious way to get over that issue?

Well...

1) The instinct to keep the wizard out of range is mostly based on low AC+low hit points. If the wizard has AC 30ish on their own (which is relatively easy), then when adjacent to the allied defender their AC goes up to 50ish which means they reduce the odds of almost all CR-appropriate enemies hitting to 5%. Once you are in the 5% range melee attacks are not a dominant concern---you start worrying about special attacks which ignore AC. Many of those (fireball, breath weapon, etc..) work at range anyways.

2) Allied Defense is an option that's useful in many situations. There are certainly situations where it is not useful. If the tactical situation calls for a Divine Power Cleric to Allied Defense for a Rogue (benefiting from Double Team as well) and the Fleshraker AC (using Venomfire) while the Druid and the Wizard hang back, then do that. The Cleric can still play face-eater with touch attacks like Holy Star, Darkfire, Sun Scepter, or Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune + Vorpal Weapon.

[Biggus]

Thanks for all the responses everyone, lots of great feats I didn't know about, keep them coming :smallsmile:


How is it not water-tight RAW? As mentioned, you only spend GP/XP when creating the item, not when using it. If you make a staff of Wish, you've already spent 250,000 XP (in addition to the normal cost of creating a staff with a 9th-level spell). You then proceed to spend zero XP when using it.

Yes, the potential for abuse is huge, but that doesn't make something not RAW. Pun-Pun is RAW-legal.

<snip>


I'm guessing you weren't having a good day when you wrote this post, because you made several mistakes. You attributed three quotes to me, none of which I said, and if you reread my post I'm clearly saying that I'm sure it's not RAI because the potential for abuse is huge, not that it isn't RAW because of that.

As for why it's not water-tight RAW: abilities tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. Channel Charge does not tell you that it allows you ignore XP and GP costs of spells.

Also, AFAIK in all other circumstances when you cast a spell as a spell (as opposed to a spell-like or supernatural ability) you always have to pay the XP or GP cost. When feats, class features etc allow you to break otherwise-universal rules, they say so, and this doesn't.


Speaking of awesome feats people forget about, I’ve forgotten one. Isn’t there a feat that allows you to substitute your own caster level for a magic item when you use it?

There is something somewhere which allows you to do that, not sure if it's a feat or a class feature though.

[Zombulian]

There is something somewhere which allows you to do that, not sure if it's a feat or a class feature though.

I think I was thinking of Residual Magic, which also has the benefit of letting you use the same metamagic twice in a row, the second time with no change to spell level.

[Jowgen]

As for why it's not water-tight RAW: abilities tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. Channel Charge does not tell you that it allows you ignore XP and GP costs of spells.

You seem to be conflating casting a spell and activating a spell trigger item?

One requires components -the material/XP ones being the ones we care about-, the other does not:


Spell Trigger: This is the activation method for wands and staffs. Activating a spell trigger item requires no gestures or spell finishing, but you must speak a single word, and you must hold the item in your hand (or what passes for your hand).

For context, what "spell finishing" means:


Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The item user must complete the spell's verbal and somatic components (if it has any), but does not need any material, focus, or XP components the spell might have. (The character who scribed the scroll provided those.)

You one simply does not deal in any sort of componenets -material or otherwise- when activating Wands, Scepters, or Staffs. One simply expends charges:


Charge: A discrete unit of an item's power that is used up when someone activates the item. For example, a newly created wand has 50 charges. An item becomes nonmagical when all its charges are used up.

[Kalkra]

Speaking of awesome feats people forget about, I’ve forgotten one. Isn’t there a feat that allows you to substitute your own caster level for a magic item when you use it?

Truename from Dragon #317 lets you use all of your relevant statistics for any spell completion item you make, including CL, bonuses from Spell Focus, etc. The feat is very versatile, and slightly risky. The wand option is particularly good for Artificers, and it can also increase the DC and spell penetration of spells that you cast, and a few other things.

Also, with regards to Allied Defense, a level-20 Warrior costs 6 gp per day. That's pretty cheap for a temporary +20 bonus to AC. If you can't find one that's a high enough level, just hire more of them.

[Lapak]

You one simply does not deal in any sort of componenets -material or otherwise- when activating Wands, Scepters, or Staffs. One simply expends charges:
I'm pretty convinced you're correct RAW after checking the feat, but RAI (which you also claimed) is pretty shaky. I'd argue that clearly the expended components are providing some metaphysical value that gets burned down as you use the staff by RAI; you're banking that during creation just as you're banking the magical charges. RAW it probably flies, but if you tried it in my campaign I'd probably rule that you're only supplying the 'charge' half of the fuel mixture, and you'd find that after you had used it as many times as the charges you paid for in components it would stop functioning.

Like trying to operate a mixed-fuel rocket engine by forcing oxygen into the mixture from the atmosphere rather than your liquid O2 tank; once you've burned the fuel you have an engine with a full tank of oxygen that nevertheless fails to work.

[One Step Two]

I'm pretty convinced you're correct RAW after checking the feat, but RAI (which you also claimed) is pretty shaky. I'd argue that clearly the expended components are providing some metaphysical value that gets burned down as you use the staff by RAI; you're banking that during creation just as you're banking the magical charges. RAW it probably flies, but if you tried it in my campaign I'd probably rule that you're only supplying the 'charge' half of the fuel mixture, and you'd find that after you had used it as many times as the charges you paid for in components it would stop functioning.

Like trying to operate a mixed-fuel rocket engine by forcing oxygen into the mixture from the atmosphere rather than your liquid O2 tank; once you've burned the fuel you have an engine with a full tank of oxygen that nevertheless fails to work.

I think the biggest area of "abuse" comes from buying or finding partially charged wands and staffs because the players aren't making the necessary investments for those spells, but that's down to the DM making them available. If a player decides to craft a wand or staff with say, Alter Fortune (the lowest level spell with an exp component I could find), and wants to burn 4th level slots and their immediate actions to do so.... I don't really see the problem? Yes, we're talking about a NI use of the spell over the length of the campaign, but there's still an upper limit to how many times per day they can use it. Higher level spells break the game even when you find other loopholes to dodge material and Exp components. It's a nice return on investment given the rarity of feats in a build.

I really like the feat for sorcerers, it's not a super efficient way to expend spell-slots, but it ups versatility, if for example said sorcerer can get his hands on a CL 7 Wand of scorching ray with 5 Charges left, it gives them tactical flexibility.

[ShurikVch]

I feel you still under-estimate it's cool-ness by, like, at least 20%.

With sufficiently boosted Con saves, it is literally the only way in game to become flat out immune to a number of things. For example, ever heard of Voidstone (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone)™?
Note: Master of Many Forms capstone makes you immune to Voidstone (unless if, by some reason, you really want to be affected)

[Jowgen]

Note: Master of Many Forms capstone makes you immune to Voidstone (unless if, by some reason, you really want to be affected)

That one depends on whether the effect is ruled to be equivalent to disintegrate and thusly Transmutation. Sources conflict on the precise mechanical nature of Voidstone's annihilation effect. If it is ruled to work, then Proof Against Transmutation also works, and arugably the Amulet of Inviolate Form.

[Biggus]

You seem to be conflating casting a spell and activating a spell trigger item?

One requires components -the material/XP ones being the ones we care about-, the other does not:

For context, what "spell finishing" means:

You one simply does not deal in any sort of componenets -material or otherwise- when activating Wands, Scepters, or Staffs. One simply expends charges:

I know all that.

What I am saying is that in all circumstances, whether you cast the spell yourself or cast it using a magic item (spell trigger, spell completion or whatever), the XP or GP has to be paid at some point, whether it's at the time of casting or when the magic item is created.

Channel Charge does not call itself out as a specific exception to that otherwise universal rule, which it would do if it were intended to do something so remarkable. Therefore, it is almost certain is it not RAI that it can do.

It is arguably RAW, but it's not watertight because CC doesn't say one way or the other what happens when you use it to cast a spell which has an XP or GP component, so you have to default to other rules. You are preferring to default to the rules about how spell trigger items work, I am preferring to default to the rule that XP and GP always have to be paid.

[icefractal]

I am preferring to default to the rule that XP and GP always have to be paid.
There is no such rule. There probably should be, and I've seen "conservation of XP" as a houserule, but there are many places in 3E where you can slip around the expected cost which are unambiguously RAW-legal.

So if it's a "rule", it's more like "You can't ride the train without a ticket" (but you can forge a ticket, or trick the inspector, or stay out of sight, or ...) than it is like "the train won't go anywhere without some energy being used".

[Debatra]

It is arguably RAW, but it's not watertight because CC doesn't say one way or the other what happens when you use it to cast a spell which has an XP or GP component, so you have to default to other rules. You are preferring to default to the rules about how spell trigger items work, I am preferring to default to the rule that XP and GP always have to be paid.

Except those costs have already been paid to create the item in question. You use the rules for activating a spell-trigger item because that's exactly what you're doing. You are never casting a spell when you use Channel Charge.