Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

[Merudo]

Wizards can cast the following summoning spells with a level 4 slot:

Level 3:
- Summon Fey
- Summon Shadow-spawn
- Summon Undead
- Summon Lesser Demons (pre-tasha)

Level 4:
- Summon Aberration
- Summon Construct
- Summon Elemental
- Summon Greater Demon (pre-tasha)
- Conjure Minor Elemental (pre-tasha)

If I had to pick one of these, which one would you recommend?

Treantmonk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g78VhqdYAs) recommends Summon Shadow-spawn & Summon Undead.

Meanwhile, Bilbron (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwev08g61M8&list=PLE826u3cKWr4tYLTTqiQOdMyA61P9219Q) favors Summon Aberration as the best of the new Tasha summoning spells.

I tend to agree with Bilbron - Summon Aberration wins due to the ranged attack & fly speed of the Beholderkin, and the regeneration of the Slaad. On the other, Summon Shadow-spawn is real good in a fear-based party, and Summon Undead makes for a spectacular Ghost scout.

[diplomancer]

Aberrations are all about damage, and, in my opinion at least, less interesting, while Shadow-Spawn and Undead inflict conditions; both Summon Shadow-Spawn and Summon Undead can synergize better with other capabilities of the party.

So, I agree with Treantmonk.

[Eldariel]

Summon Greater Demon and it's not particularly close. Its advantages are numerous:
- It gets you the hardest hitting things. Barlgura in particular has 3 attacks at +7 with advantage for 31 DPR.
- Barlgura also has Blindsight which is great in conjunction with e.g. Darkness-users in the party, your own Pyrotechnics or anything of the sort. And also in environments that are naturally sight-limited, of course.
- It gets you spellcasting things. Both Babau (at-will Dispel Magic, Heat Metal, Darkness, Fear, Levitate - a potent spell list even for a spellcaster, essentially a Wizard buddy) and Barlgura (Phantasmal Force, Entangle & Invisibility with surprisingly decent save DC) bring good spells to bear.
- It gets you the most durability. Nothing compares to the Babau far as durability goes: resistance to non-magical weapons + 84 HP means it's basically just not going down to anything your enemies can throw at it unless the same attack would kill PCs of the level in one shot. This is Polymorph-levels of extra HP to the fight.
- It gets you non-Concentration utility too. Due to the clause that the monster randomly attacks targets when not controlled and lasts for 1d6, even if you drop or lose Concentration during combat you generally get to have the monster hit things until the end of combat.
- The only drawback is the creature trying to break free. But it's trivial to get the truename (literally just summon the thing once, Charm it and get it to tell it to you) and with truename, Barlgura with its -1 Cha is looking at (assuming you have 16 Int (+3) on level 7) over 10 rolls before it has any relevant chance of breaking free (expected value is a bit over 11 turns - up to 16ish turns for DC15, 25 turns for DC16, 44 turns for DC17 [level 9 with 20 Int], 100 turns for DC18 [given any sort of buff], 400 turns for DC19, infinite turns for DC20). Obviously Babau shifts all these numbers up by two (but it's still got an EV of 6 rounds at 16 Int, 8 rounds at 18 Int, so plenty for a combat). So basically it's a spell for a single combat, not an hour until you get to DC18 (at which point you can expect 10 minutes of control over Cha -1 creatures rather easily).

- There are also other great creatures, though ones where you can't expect a long control time. Dybbyk and Shadow Demon have their obvious place (Shadow Demon is great when needing to hurt things that are resistant to physical attacks, Dybbyk's possession and spell-likes can make it worth as a "nova spell" even if you can't control it) and having access to all of this off that single spell and slot makes it even better IMHO.

Overall, yeah, it's not long duration minionmancy but it's damn good single combat minionmancy. Honorary mention to Conjure Minor Elementals; any spell that can summon 8 things that can force saves off enemies is useful but it's restricted by its long casting time and comparatively short duration, which is why I default to Summon Greater Demon (Summon Lesser Demons manages to be weak in spite of summoning a horde due to a plethora of restrictions and the fact that weak demons are way worse than beasts to this end). Otherwise it'd be almost Conjure Woodland Beings-level of bull****.

[Wraith]

The usual caveat "it depends what sort of things are in your campaign" applies.

Overall, I think Undead and Constructs are the best all-rounders in the group. Good stats and lots of immunities for 'tanking', and a few useful abilities that *very* narrowly put them above Elementals, who are pretty close but just lose out on in-combat effectiveness.

I specifically like Aberrations the most, however. I like their variety, and that they generally cause Psychic damage is just about uncommon enough that it fills a useful niche should you encounter enemies with common Resistances. Avoid them if your campaign is heavy with Construct enemies and they're probably the best, but if it is then their usefulness is severely curtailed.

Demons are worst, by a significant margin. That the GM decides what gets summoned can be bad enough, but having no control over them is just a tragedy waiting to happen. Even if they disappear when you end concentration, they're still cluttering up the battlefield and offering things like Attacks of Opportunity or wayward AoE spells against your allies - why take the risk, unless you specifically want to play as a Chaotic Insane nuisance to the party?

[Eldariel]

Demons are worst, by a significant margin. That the GM decides what gets summoned can be bad enough, but having no control over them is just a tragedy waiting to happen. Even if they disappear when you end concentration, they're still cluttering up the battlefield and offering things like Attacks of Opportunity or wayward AoE spells against your allies - why take the risk, unless you specifically want to play as a Chaotic Insane nuisance to the party?

It's worth noting that neither applies to Summon Greater Demon (and both apply to Lesser Demons).
"You choose the demon's type, which must be one of challenge rating 5 or lower, such as a shadow demon or a barlgura."

Uncontrolled greater demon acts completely predictably: "...your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability."

[Chaos Jackal]

If you wanna stick strictly to TCE summons, then shadowspawn and undead are probably your best bets. Shadowspawns are overall well-rounded, with a good mix of (scaling) hp, damage and additional effects like the fear. Undead can be both melee and ranged, have decent damage and are extremely strong against enemies that aren't immune to poison.

If you're going all books then, like Eldariel said, summon greater demon has no competition, at least over the course of one fight. Action to summon, the selection probably includes the strongest and toughest creatures available for summoning, it gets you everything from direct damage to tanking to debuffs, you get to choose what you summon (that doesn't happen with most conjurations) and it can even stay after you lose concentration. Its drawbacks are that it has no horde option (so no woodland beings levels of ridiculousness) and that it can break free more easily than other summons with a similar condition. Breaking free is of little concern to you if you threw it in the middle of an enemy bunch, since it will just go berserk on them, but it does give it a distinctive disadvantage over other conjurations in the longevity department, since even if you bring something that can't make the save easily (like a barlgura) and use its name, it will realistically manage to escape long before an hour has passed, possibly even before the next fight happens. But otherwise, in a single combat, a demon is the most damaging, durable and versatile thing you can summon.

Oh, and it scales too. Quite well to boot. On top of the already good basic stuff like babau and barlgura you can get a chasme or a vrock with a 5th-level slot, both of which are extremely disruptive to enemy groups and, in the vrock's case, tough as nails. If you wanna go higher you can get some seriously heavy hitters like the armanite, the draegloth or the hezrou and if you wanna break the bank you can even bring out a glabrezu. Sure, as you go higher the slots begin to feel less worth it, but the possibility is there.

So yeah. Summon greater demon all the way.

[Merudo]

But it's trivial to get the truename (literally just summon the thing once, Charm it and get it to tell it to you)

How do you plan on charming the demon? It's not an humanoid so most approaches will fail...

[Eldariel]

How do you plan on charming the demon? It's not an humanoid so most approaches will fail...

Through Charm Monster, another 4th level spell.

[Merudo]

Through Charm Monster, another 4th level spell.

Good point, I don't hear much about the spell so I forgot it existed.

I don't quite think a Demon would give away its true name just from the effect of the spell though.

Charm Monster just means the demon is friendly, not that it under mind control.

[Eldariel]

Good point, I don't hear much about the spell so I forgot it existed.

I don't quite think a Demon would give away its true name just from the effect of the spell though.

Charm Monster just means the demon is friendly, not that it under mind control.

Monster Manual explicitly says "A demon can be forced to disclose its true name if charmed..." (page 53 sidebar: Demon True Names).

[kingcheesepants]

I love summon greater demon once you have planar binding and can make the demon do what you want without worrying about it going crazy. But before picking up binding I'd stick with one of the summon spirits. I actually like construct, though apparently I'm in the minority with that. I think that the stone lethargy is a nice ability, half speed and no reaction if anything within 10 feet of the spirit fails a Wis save against your spell DC. And the spirit doesn't even have to use an action for that it just happens automatically. Not as flashy as some of the stuff the other summons do but it's generally reliable.

[Merudo]

Monster Manual explicitly says "A demon can be forced to disclose its true name if charmed..." (page 53 sidebar: Demon True Names).

Cool, I never knew that.

Also, is it even necessary to charm the demon? Can't we just order it to give us its name as soon as it gets summoned?


When you summon [the demon] and on each of your turns thereafter, you can issue a verbal command to it (requiring no action on your part), telling it what it must do on its next turn.

[MaxWilson]

Wizards can cast the following summoning spells with a level 4 slot:

Level 3:
- Summon Fey
- Summon Shadow-spawn
- Summon Undead
- Summon Lesser Demons (pre-tasha)

Level 4:
- Summon Aberration
- Summon Construct
- Summon Elemental
- Summon Greater Demon (pre-tasha)
- Conjure Minor Elemental (pre-tasha)

If I had to pick one of these, which one would you recommend?

Treantmonk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g78VhqdYAs) recommends Summon Shadow-spawn & Summon Undead.

Meanwhile, Bilbron (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwev08g61M8&list=PLE826u3cKWr4tYLTTqiQOdMyA61P9219Q) favors Summon Aberration as the best of the new Tasha summoning spells.

I tend to agree with Bilbron - Summon Aberration wins due to the ranged attack & fly speed of the Beholderkin, and the regeneration of the Slaad. On the other, Summon Shadow-spawn is real good in a fear-based party, and Summon Undead makes for a spectacular Ghost scout.

Eldariel already said it, but Summon Greater Demon is far and away the best. It helps enormously that the demon, ironically, is utterly predictable when uncontrolled.

Conveniently, it also upcasts well all the way up to 8th level (Glabrezu) AND gets you Planar Binding fodder including some (Armanites) with magic weapons (essential at high levels). You'll need a Magic Circle or an enchanter for the binding but that extra expense is minor, and better than not getting anything to bind at all, per Summon Shadowspawn/Aberration/etc. (And technically you don't need a magic circle if you give the demon something to attack the whole time you're casting the spell, e.g. a Troll that keeps coming back to positive HP every round. I would just use the circle though.)

Fringe benefit: when the DM isn't giving you enough excitement, including during downtime, you can summon demons to kill for fun and XP. Some DMs might deny you XP on metagame grounds even though demon-slaying practice is a realistic idea, but even then, trash talking and then killing various kinds of demons is still fun. And you never have to feel guilty about hurting them.


Cool, I never knew that.

Also, is it even necessary to charm the demon? Can't we just order it to give us its name as soon as it gets summoned?

Unclear. Ask your DM. For me, no, demons can't be forced by the magic of Summon Greater Demon to disclose their truenames, or else it would be pointless to write the part of the spell text that assumes you'd ever NOT know their truename. Detect Thoughts could work though. Personally I don't love the Charmed thing from the MM and wouldn't use it (I have a more TS Eliot take on truenames, they are kept secret), and wouldn't feel bad about that because it's not a player-facing rule. But if a player was in love with some kind of lore about how truenames work for demons, and that lore implied that they give out those truenames freely to their friendly acquaintances, I'd be open to letting the Charmed thing work as written for that player's sake.

[Eldariel]

Cool, I never knew that.

Also, is it even necessary to charm the Demon? Can't we just order it to give us its name as soon as it gets summoned?

Maybe. That's something the rules are silent on. FWIW I like having to put a little trouble into getting it and going through the presummoning and charming with the risk that entails (basically it means you need to get Charm Monster, SGD and Magic Circle which feels kinda cool, doing actual in-character on-screen research on creature truename).


Conveniently, it also upcasts well all the way up to 8th level (Glabrezu) AND gets you Planar Binding fodder including some (Armanites) with magic weapons (essential at high levels).

Also worth noting, many of the summons do other types of damage which bypasses these resistances. Shadow Demon does Psychic (tho hard to control), Chasme has a massive Necrotic rider, etc. And of course, the ones that fight with spells (mostly Babau and Dybbyk, but few of the higher level ones too) don't care about resistances that much.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe. That's something the rules are silent on. FWIW I like having to put a little trouble into getting it and going through the presummoning and charming with the risk that entails (basically it means you need to get Charm Monster, SGD and Magic Circle which feels kinda cool, doing actual in-character on-screen research on creature truename).

Agreed. I happen to like it better if the research needed involves Detect Thoughts instead of Charm Monster (so the truename feels more secret) but either way I like it better than if it's just built into Summon Greater Demon itself.

[Merudo]

Maybe. That's something the rules are silent on. FWIW I like having to put a little trouble into getting it and going through the presummoning and charming with the risk that entails (basically it means you need to get Charm Monster, SGD and Magic Circle which feels kinda cool, doing actual in-character on-screen research on creature truename).


That's a lot of work, that you need to repeat every time you cast Summon Greater Demon.

Remember with Summon Greater Demon, you don't get to summon a specific demon. You only get to pick its type.

[Merudo]

Eldariel already said it, but Summon Greater Demon is far and away the best.

Summon Greater Demon really takes off at level 11+, when it becomes possible to Planar Bind it for 10 days or more. Until then, I'm not convinced it is better than other summoning spells.

My main concern with Summon Greater Demon is that it will realistically last for a single combat - if that. Meanwhile, other summons last for a full hour, and can often be used for utility as well (flying scout, incorporeal ghost, etc).

It doesn't help that the demon could potentially end up attacking your own front liners, although with clever positioning the risk of that happening is low.

[Chaos Jackal]

Like I said, the fact that it will realistically last for one combat, maybe two if you're quick about it, is the biggest issue of summon greater demon. It kinda makes up for that by ensuring that it stays around for a bit even if you lose concentration, though I'll admit it's probably not equal to potentially having a summon for an hour.

But again, the options are really strong. The babau and barlgura blow every other single summon out of the water, and they're just the baseline. Summon greater demon might not last more than a fight, but it's gonna win that fight.

[MaxWilson]

Summon Greater Demon really takes off at level 11+, when it becomes possible to Planar Bind it for 10 days or more. Until then, I'm not convinced it is better than other summoning spells.

My main concern with Summon Greater Demon is that it will realistically last for a single combat - if that. Meanwhile, other summons last for a full hour, and can often be used for utility as well (flying scout, incorporeal ghost, etc).

It doesn't help that the demon could potentially end up attacking your own front liners, although with clever positioning the risk of that happening is low.

Those are valid concerns, but you said you can only choose one, so thinking forward to level 11+ seems worthwhile given the intense pressure wizards face in spellbook picks.

Even just at level 7 I would still highly recommend Summon Greater Demon, but you're right that there are cases where you'd want to reuse a summon for multiple easy combats in a row (and Summon Aberration would be an obvious pick there). But personally I would just use Polymorph for that multiple-easy-combat scenario instead. You'll get more HP, and Polymorph has multiple other uses (flying, single target debuff) so you get more mileage out of the pick.

I guess I was assuming that you only get one summons pick partly because you've already got Polymorph and two other 4th level picks in mind, and can't afford to pick two summoning spells. I think that makes Summon Greater Demon the clear winner.

[JackPhoenix]

Monster Manual explicitly says "A demon can be forced to disclose its true name if charmed..." (page 53 sidebar: Demon True Names).

That's not the same thing as "the demon automatically tells you its true name if you apply any charm effect to it".

[Merudo]

Those are valid concerns, but you said you can only choose one, so thinking forward to level 11+ seems worthwhile given the intense pressure wizards face in spellbook picks.

True, but realistically most campaigns end around the level 10-12 range. I agree that for campaigns going deep into tier 3 & 4, Summon Greater Demon is a must.



But personally I would just use Polymorph for that multiple-easy-combat scenario instead. You'll get more HP, and Polymorph has multiple other uses (flying, single target debuff) so you get more mileage out of the pick.


I like Polymorph too - it's great as utility and to save someone from death. But casting it on yourself is too risky: if you are attacked a few times, you are almost guaranteed to lose the concentration.

Casting it on someone else who isn't dying, means you no longer benefit from that person's normal PC - plus your concentration is occupied. It might not be worth it, and many players find it very frustrating to play as a polymorphed creature for long periods of time - they signed off to be a Fighter, Rogue or whatever, not a Giant Ape or a T-Rex.



I guess I was assuming that you only get one summons pick partly because you've already got Polymorph and two other 4th level picks in mind, and can't afford to pick two summoning spells. I think that makes Summon Greater Demon the clear winner.

There are sufficient differences between Summon Greater Demon (1 combat nuke for a though fight) and other summoning spells (prolonged combat help & some utility) that I would consider picking up both Summon Greater Demon and another summoning spell.

Level 4 spells aren't that good either, and you essentially get 4 of them for free unless you get a level 3 spell instead.


Polymorph: life saver and has good utility too.
Greater Invisibility: decent enough buff, but works better when twinned by a Sorcerer.
Arcane Eye: excellent at recon, although Summon Undead (Ghost) can do much of the same with some combat utility.
Banishment: only good upcasted, and at the point you might as well just drop a Wall of Force
Divination: surprisingly good and doesn't require preparation
Black Tentacles: I'd rather cast Web
Fire Shield: amazing if fire/cold damage is expected
Sickening Radiance: great for Evokers

[Mitchellnotes]

This is a bit of a niche concern, but summon undead is a necromancy spell. May make it less appealing for a conjuror, and more appealing for necromancer.

[Eldariel]

That's a lot of work, that you need to repeat every time you cast Summon Greater Demon.

Remember with Summon Greater Demon, you don't get to summon a specific demon. You only get to pick its type.

The same true name paragraph does suggest that if you know the true name of a demon, you can summon that true name. Admittedly it was made before SGD and therefore doesn't reference the spell nor does the spell reference it explicitly but still, that seems reasonable enough to me.


Of long duration summons:
- Conjure Minor Elementals shouldn't be overlooked. While the 1 min/1 hour deal is tough, if you specifically summon something when you know you'll fight a lot of things within an hour, it can get the job done. It also does a good job of reconing. Mud Mephits get to spam 8xDC11 Dex-or-restrains and more on death (single target), Smoke Mephits get to spam 8x15' cones for DC 10 Dex-or-blinds (1 min) plus Dancing Lights (potentially relevant for vision or diversion). Of the 4x options, Dust Mephit has blinding breath weapon and gets to cast Sleep, and Magma Mephits have Heat Metal and a minor damage breath weapon (they add up to a DC11 Fireball except in 15' Cone).

Mephits are notable in that they have a surprisingly large amount of HP for CR1/4 creatures: Mud has 27 and Smoke 22 (contra e.g. Wolves with 11). They also have some decent stealth abilities. Their physical offense is completely anemic, but if you get 8 things, they at least do something (definitely no Wolves though). Smoke Mephit is physically the best of the bunch, at +4 for 1d4+2. Definitely no Wolves or Velicraptors: you're obviously bringing these along primarily for the breath weapon (6 round expected value to recharge so 1/encounter), flight and durability. I think these do beat out the Tasha's options far as use goes after you've gotten the summoning-part done.

So if you're entering a dungeon and you want expendable bodies that do something for 1 hour, CME is a good call, simply because quantity > quality in this game most of the time (and those mephits do surprisingly decent job at various tasks).


- Tasha's summons tread the middle ground. Combat castable and last multiple combats. Quick glance through:

Aberration is basically just Beholderkin eye ray, which is admittedly nice in that it does decent reliable damage. For when you need an archer. Slaad is good for many weak encounters where it's unlikely to go down, but at 40 HP and 15 AC you have to be a bit careful to keep it alive.
Construct has Stony Lethargy and is kinda tanky. The fact that Stony Lethargy is contingent on a failed save makes it less amazing (otherwise it'd basically be Spirit Guardians) but even then it's good. Decently tanky (55 HP and 17 AC) with a laundry list of condition immunities (but curiously no damage resistances other than poison), almost comparable to the offensive options on the Summon Greater Demon list.
Elemental is pretty weak. Or it does nothing interesting, at any rate. You can get burrow speed, I guess? It can be tanky but not really more so than Construct or Aberration. Next.
Fey is pretty dull. And weak. Only melee and its only noteworthy ability is Misty Step.
Fiend is pretty weak (and way too high a level!). Basic damage dealing options. I'd rather have a Beholder than flame-hurling Devil due to damage types in spite of Devil having higher dice.
Shadowspawn has the Dreadful Scream which alone places it a tier above most of the options (admittedly only works vs. enemies vulnerable to fear). Despair also has a no-save version of Stony Lethargy (admittedly only 5' though). Hard to bypass though not all that tanky (Construct is tankier: this gets 50 HP and 15 AC on level 4 slot).
Undead has the most utility. Ghost being incorporeal makes it almost as good as elemental for their element and Putrid has some CC (admittedly poisoned sucks as a condition since so many things are immune). Skeletal is a solid archer, comparable to Beholder and Devil though admittedly with less HP. Necrotic is a fine damage type and 2d4+7 x2 isn't bad, though only 150' range like the other wizard options (Celestial can go up to 600'). Overall, Undead has the best options but the durability is left seriously wanting.



Considering this is the spell I want for multiple fights, tankiness is sadly relevant. Which means Construct, Aberration (Slaad) and Elemental (Earth has piercing/bludgeoning DR) actually have something going on for it, with their high durability and laundry list of immunities. Ultimately I'd lean towards Shadowspawn or Undead though. Generally the best defense is a good offense: if enemies are CCd they aren't killing you. Putrid is nice if it works (and you can pick it if it works) and Shadowspawn has that 1 encounter nuke (though if you want 1 encounter nuke, you can always just SGD). Ultimately, if I had to pick one it'd be Summon Undead since it brings scouting, CC and damage all in decent packages even if it doesn't bring as much HP on the board as the alternatives. It also has the best immunity list.

Aberration is nice for if you're going through lots of weak encounters: Slaad can tank up and regenerate between encounters so for the proposed scenario here it might actually be the option that saves the party the most resources.


In short, if I had to pick one of the Tasha's summons I'd lean towards Summon Undead in spite of it being the squishiest of the bunch (40 HP vs. 50 for most options or 55 for Construct - Aberration is 40 too tho). All 3 options are useful and it broadly covers all the jobs you want out of a summon. Being able to cast it out of 3rd level slot as Ghostly for scouting purposes is nice too; as you noted it has some similarities to arcane eye (though it's obviously not as unkillable or invisible). Though Shadowspawn does have tankiness and no-save CC and a decent (if often immunitised) AOE save-or-lose going on for it. A really tough choice between the two.

[MaxWilson]

I like Polymorph too - it's great as utility and to save someone from death. But casting it on yourself is too risky: if you are attacked a few times, you are almost guaranteed to lose the concentration.

Casting it on someone else who isn't dying, means you no longer benefit from that person's normal PC - plus your concentration is occupied. It might not be worth it, and many players find it very frustrating to play as a polymorphed creature for long periods of time - they signed off to be a Fighter, Rogue or whatever, not a Giant Ape or a T-Rex.

Depends on the party though. I see wizards get good mileage out of Polymorphing Bards, Druids, Clerics, or other wizards--anyone without a good at-will attack. Polymorphing a Fighter into a Giant Ape isn't terrible (it's still free HP) but it's not ideal, and very possibly overkill if the enemy wasn't that tough in the first place.

Note also that self-casting is only very risky if you try to tank. If you turn yourself into a Giant Ape to kite with thrown boulders and reach attacks and pre-cast Mage Armor and a fast climb speed, concentration is less of an issue. (Bardic Inspiration and Paladin auras may also affect this decision calculus.)

What is the party composition you're considering, if there is one? Also anything you can say about encounter pacing and composition.

[Chaos Jackal]

Fiend is pretty weak (and way too high a level!). Basic damage dealing options. I'd rather have a Beholder than flame-hurling Devil due to damage types in spite of Devil having higher dice.

Should be mentioned that the fiend is also large, meaning that the devil option can be used as a flying mount. The devil also has Devil's Sight (and Magic Resistance). It's extremely squishy (40hp from a 6th-level spell are a real bummer, even if the AC is decent) but it's quite strong offensively. I agree it's not the best option and initially I had labelled it weak as well, but over time it has grown on me a bit. Still average (a 6th-level slot is a lot for that), but not as bad as I thought when I first saw it. Kinda irrelevant to the thread however.

To expand on what I said initially and what Eldariel mentions above, the shadowspawn's and undead's added utility and CC is what pushes them up a notch. If you're fighting a lot of fear-immune enemies, shadowspawn does get noticeably weaker, but undead stays decent even if you're fighting a lot of poison-immune enemies (which is quite likely, to be honest), since the ghost is actually remarkably good as well.

As for construct and elemental, they are arguably the toughest of the bunch, with the former sporting good AC and hp (is there a typo in my source? Does construct really say "above 3rd" for its hp even though it's 4th-level?) and the latter sporting physical resistance options, but the golems are rather weak offensively and the elementals don't really have anything extra they can do in combat other than hit an enemy for nonmagical bludgeoning or fire, which is both weak and not flexible, while most of their out of combat utility can be accomplished just as easily, if not better, by a ghost.

My issue with the "tanky" options and what pushes them lower than stuff like shadowspawn and undead is that none of the TCE summons are actually that tanky. None of the options actually have all that many hit points and physical resistances are very hard to come by, making their AC the only (potentially) good number on the defensive side. None of the options have good saves either, with no proficiency on anything and a lot of middling or even bad stats.

That's why I ultimately consider the archer options the best. Firing from up to 150ft behind does a lot to mitigate the low hp and saves, while even the toughest options can go down really quickly in melee. If you actually want to exploit the longevity the TCE summons have over summon greater demon you might find out, depending on how your DM creates encounters too, that melee can really cut into that longevity. Outside of options with heavy debuffing, melee just doesn't feel very sustainable if you wanna maintain your low-hp summon for more than a fight or two.

[Eldariel]

Should be mentioned that the fiend is also large, meaning that the devil option can be used as a flying mount. The devil also has Devil's Sight (and Magic Resistance). It's extremely squishy (40hp from a 6th-level spell are a real bummer, even if the AC is decent) but it's quite strong offensively. I agree it's not the best option and initially I had labelled it weak as well, but over time it has grown on me a bit. Still average (a 6th-level slot is a lot for that), but not as bad as I thought when I first saw it. Kinda irrelevant to the thread however.

To expand on what I said initially and what Eldariel mentions above, the shadowspawn's and undead's added utility and CC is what pushes them up a notch. If you're fighting a lot of fear-immune enemies, shadowspawn does get noticeably weaker, but undead stays decent even if you're fighting a lot of poison-immune enemies (which is quite likely, to be honest), since the ghost is actually remarkably good as well.

As for construct and elemental, they are arguably the toughest of the bunch, with the former sporting good AC and hp (is there a typo in my source? Does construct really say "above 3rd" for its hp even though it's 4th-level?) and the latter sporting physical resistance options, but the golems are rather weak offensively and the elementals don't really have anything extra they can do in combat other than hit an enemy for nonmagical bludgeoning or fire, which is both weak and unflexible, while most of their out of combat utility can be accomplished just as easily, if not better, by a ghost.

My issue with the "tanky" options and what pushes them lower than stuff like shadowspawn and undead is that none of the TCE summons are actually that tanky. None of the options actually have all that many hit points and physical resistances are very hard to come by, making their AC the only (potentially) good number on the defensive side. None of the options have good saves either, with no proficiency on anything and a lot of middling or even bad stats.

That's why I ultimately consider the archer options the best. Firing from up to 150ft behind does a lot to mitigate the low hp and saves, while even the toughest options can go down really quickly in melee. If you actually want to exploit the longevity the TCE summons have over summon greater demon you might find out, depending on how your DM creates encounters too, that melee can really cut into that longevity. Outside of options with heavy debuffing, melee just doesn't feel very sustainable if you wanna maintain your low-hp summon for more than a fight or two.

Shadowspawn's big weakness is the 1/day limitation on the Scream. It's really good but this basically means it's really good in that one encounter and then you're left with a body - and if you want 1-encounter awesome, you already have Summon Greater Demon. Admittedly having a 50 HP 15 AC thing leftover is far from nothing, especially since Despair is also annoyingly sticky but as you say they do die kinda quick (nothing compared to Babau for instance at any rate; Earth Elemental though can be decent due to its resistances).

This is incidentally why I so like Celestial too: great damage, large flying mount potentially, superb ranged damage, good at keeping its distance, and able to engage at 600' (albeit at disadvantage though vision-based advantage fixes that). Fiend is kinda discount version but I guess it's not entirely worthless since you don't get Celestial anyways - Fire isn't always the worst damage type. But yeah, the fact that Undead has 3 good options is what pushes it above the rest for me: it comes with the default solid ranged choice and a good CC form and a good scout that doubles as another CC form. Scouting is something where the duration can come in handy and the lack of durability isn't necessarily a death sentence.

[Christian]

As for construct and elemental, they are arguably the toughest of the bunch, with the former sporting good AC and hp (is there a typo in my source? Does construct really say "above 3rd" for its hp even though it's 4th-level?)

Huh. I hadn't noticed that, but that is in fact what it says in my printing of Tasha's. Editing fail--probably this was initially set as a 3rd-level spell, and the wording wasn't fixed after they changed it to 4th.

[Merudo]

Depends on the party though. I see wizards get good mileage out of Polymorphing Bards, Druids, Clerics, or other wizards--anyone without a good at-will attack. Polymorphing a Fighter into a Giant Ape isn't terrible (it's still free HP) but it's not ideal, and very possibly overkill if the enemy wasn't that tough in the first place.

Note also that self-casting is only very risky if you try to tank. If you turn yourself into a Giant Ape to kite with thrown boulders and reach attacks and pre-cast Mage Armor and a fast climb speed, concentration is less of an issue. (Bardic Inspiration and Paladin auras may also affect this decision calculus.)

What is the party composition you're considering, if there is one? Also anything you can say about encounter pacing and composition.

We are in Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, and our party is the following:

- Paladin (Dragonborn)
- Druid, Spores (Loxodon)
- Barbarian, Beast (Gnome)
- Cleric, Tempest (Human)
- Wizard, Bladesinger (Goblin) <-- That's me!

[Eldariel]

We are in Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, and our party is the following:

- Paladin (Dragonborn)
- Druid, Spores (Loxodon)
- Barbarian, Beast (Gnome)
- Cleric, Tempest (Human)
- Wizard, Bladesinger (Goblin) <-- That's me!

Hmm, well, if given only one and provided I didn't want SGD (which I do like from level 7 on in spite of the single encounter duration), I'd get Summon Undead. It just hits the largest amount of points at once, being versatile and fairly powerful. CME is limited by not being combat usable.

[MaxWilson]

We are in Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, and our party is the following:

- Paladin (Dragonborn)
- Druid, Spores (Loxodon)
- Barbarian, Beast (Gnome)
- Cleric, Tempest (Human)
- Wizard, Bladesinger (Goblin) <-- That's me!

Off-the-cuff observation: that actually looks like a party where Polymorph would be very valuable, since the Tempest Cleric, the Paladin, and possibly the spores druid rely on resource expenditure to get good damage (so Polymorph can let the Paladin save smites for later, for example), while the Beast Barbarian is not only thematically compatible with Polymorph--its Rage doubles the effective HP of a Giant Ape while simultaneously increasing its damage! He'll be trading at most 3 attacks at +8ish for d6+7/d6+7/2d6+7 (35) for two reach attacks at +9 for 3d10+8/3d10+8 (49) and 157 HP. He should be BEGGING you to Polymorph him.

I've only run parts of Rime of the Frostmaiden but I remember it as surprisingly deadly for a WotC adventure especially at level 1, but not particularly an endurance grind (more "one deadly fight" than "6-8 easy fights") so Summon Greater Demon is probably perfectly fine there. But I'd learn definitely ask the Beastbarian if they're interested in the occasional Beast Mode collaboration, and learn Polymorph if so. Under some circumstances, in tough fights, you can even potentially use SGD and Polymorph at the same time (after the demon breaks control).

[diplomancer]

Off-the-cuff observation: that actually looks like a party where Polymorph would be very valuable, since the Tempest Cleric, the Paladin, and possibly the spores druid rely on resource expenditure to get good damage (so Polymorph can let the Paladin save smites for later, for example), while the Beast Barbarian is not only thematically compatible with Polymorph--its Rage doubles the effective HP of a Giant Ape while simultaneously increasing its damage! He'll be trading at most 3 attacks at +8ish for d6+7/d6+7/2d6+7 (35) for two reach attacks at +9 for 3d10+8/3d10+8 (49) and 157 HP. He should be BEGGING you to Polymorph him.

I've only run parts of Rime of the Frostmaiden but I remember it as surprisingly deadly for a WotC adventure especially at level 1, but not particularly an endurance grind (more "one deadly fight" than "6-8 easy fights") so Summon Greater Demon is probably perfectly fine there. But I'd learn definitely ask the Beastbarian if they're interested in the occasional Beast Mode collaboration, and learn Polymorph if so. Under some circumstances, in tough fights, you can even potentially use SGD and Polymorph at the same time (after the demon breaks control).

Rage and Polymorph don't work together, I believe (unfortunately; it would be AWESOME if they did).

Reasoning is that Raging is not a condition, but a class feature, and you don't benefit from your class features when you're polymorphed.

[MaxWilson]

Rage and Polymorph don't work together, I believe (unfortunately; it would be AWESOME if they did).

Reasoning is that Raging is not a condition, but a class feature, and you don't benefit from your class features when you're polymorphed.

Spellcasting is also a class feature, including casting Polymorph. If Rage ends early while Polymorphed because it's a class feature, Polymorph and other spells would also cease to work while Polymorphed, and self-Polymorphing would be impossible.

Keeping Rage for its full duration even while Polymorphed is as valid as keeping Polymorph for its full duration while Polymorphed, QED.

Ultimately it's a DM call but I would fully expect a reasonable DM to be sympathetic to this argument, especially because what's more thematic for a King Kong, getting really angry and powerful or maintaining wizard spells? Banning both would be a ruling I could live with (you'd have to rewrite PHB Transmuters though), but if a DM made Rage end early but let self-Polymorph work I would have the right to be dissatisfied.

[diplomancer]

Spellcasting is also a class feature, including casting Polymorph. If Rage ends early while Polymorphed because it's a class feature, Polymorph and other spells would also cease to work while Polymorphed, and self-Polymorphing would be impossible.

Keeping Rage for its full duration even while Polymorphed is as valid as keeping Polymorph for its full duration while Polymorphed, QED.

Ultimately it's a DM call but I would fully expect a reasonable DM to be sympathetic to this argument, especially because what's more thematic for a King Kong, getting really angry and powerful or maintaining wizard spells? Banning both would be a ruling I could live with (you'd have to rewrite PHB Transmuters though), but if a DM made Rage end early but let self-Polymorph work I would have the right to be dissatisfied.

I sympathize with the argument, I really do. If I were the DM, I might probably houserule it anyway, since it's so thematic (but on the other hand, it is VERY powerful, on an already OP spell, at least at the level you get it). But "concentration" is not a class feature, it's a game mechanic, and it's what actually keeps the spell going. Furthermore, despite its name, maintaining it has nothing to do with mental abilities, but with Constitution. King Kong can't cast new spells, obviously, but there isn't anywhere, in all of the ruleset, the indication that "concentrating on a spell" is something some creatures can do and others can't, as weird as it is at first glance to have a "concentrating T-Rex".

Being angry is not a class feature either. Anyone can get angry. An angry wizard is terrifying. Just ask Bilbo, Sam, Butterbur, Pippin, etc... Barbarian's Rage (and its associated game benefits), however, IS a class feature; only Barbarians get specific bonuses from being angry, and then only if they decide to use a rage (consider that... Barbarians can get angry and choose NOT to rage; they're not the Hulk). Why does Rage work but, say, Unarmoured Defense or Reckless Attack doesn't? Isn't recklessly attacking thematic for the angry King Kong?

[MaxWilson]

I sympathize with the argument, I really do. If I were the DM, I might probably houserule it anyway, since it's so thematic (but on the other hand, it is VERY powerful, on an already OP spell, at least at the level you get it). But "concentration" is not a class feature, it's a game mechanic, and it's what actually keeps the spell going. Furthermore, despite its name, maintaining it has nothing to do with mental abilities, but with Constitution. King Kong can't cast new spells, obviously, but there isn't anywhere, in all of the ruleset, the indication that "concentrating on a spell" is something some creatures can do and others can't, as weird as it is at first glance to have a "concentrating T-Rex".

Being angry is not a class feature either. Anyone can get angry. An angry wizard is terrifying. Just ask Bilbo, Sam, Butterbur, Pippin, etc... Barbarian's Rage (and its associated game benefits), however, IS a class feature; only Barbarians get specific bonuses from being angry, and then only if they decide to use a rage (consider that... Barbarians can get angry and choose NOT to rage; they're not the Hulk). Why does Rage work but, say, Unarmoured Defense or Reckless Attack doesn't? Isn't recklessly attacking thematic for the angry King Kong?

As a corner case, if someone readied a Polymorph to happen after you'd already activated Reckless Attack by making your first attack, Reckless Attack would theoretically work to its full duration (end of the current turn, so pretty much just your second attack and a possible bonus action attack). But you lose the class feature when you become an Ape, so if you haven't activated Reckless Attack by then it's too late. (Same would apply to Rage if you hadn't started Raging yet.)

Unarmored Defense doesn't work because Polymorph overwrites your AC with a new AC.

Temporarily losing class features like spellcasting doesn't negate what you've already done with those class features, such as activating Polymorph or Rage.

In practical terms I wouldn't expect a Beastbarian to be deterred even if the DM did rule that Rage bonuses weren't available while Polymorphed--either way it's still more HP on top of his Beast HP, as long as he somehow gets Rage bonuses back once Polymorph ends. Free HP, better to-hit, more damage, and is still excellent for him, and it's not like they're actually going to use up all 150+ HP in a typical Rime of the Frost Maiden fight anyway, even without Ragesistance. What bugs me about a DM allowing self-Polymorph but not Rage is the inconsistency and its impact on my suspension of disbelief, not the impact on the actual adventure outcomes.

[diplomancer]

Unarmored Defense doesn't work because Polymorph overwrites your AC with a new AC.

That's not why; after all:
"When the game gives you more than one way to calculate your Armor Class, you can use only one of them. You choose the one to use. "

It's because, like Rage, you've lost the Class feature, and so can't have its benefits: the difference is between an "always on" class feature and a feature you activate, but the spell makes no such distinction. You simply don't have the features anymore. That's why I said earlier that "raging" is not a condition.




Temporarily losing class features like spellcasting doesn't negate what you've already done with those class features, such as activating Polymorph or Rage.

I'm not saying Rage ends (as long as the requirements for it not to end are fulfilled, which they probably will); I'm saying you don't get its benefits while you are Polymorphed, because these benefits are specific class features of the Barbarian; I wouldn't let a Vengeance Paladin to keep his advantage from Vow of Enmity either, or a Bladesinger to keep his Bladesong abilities after he's activated them. Would you? ¹ If you stop being Polymorphed and the Rage still hasn't finished, now that you are, again, a Barbarian, you get the benefits from it.

It's entirely different from benefits you get from a spell, as those are independent of even having a class, so they are not part of your game's statistics; except, perhaps, spells which can only target yourself (but even those don't require being able to normally cast spells; see Ring of Spell Storing, or many other items that allow casting self-spells without requiring the spellcasting or pact magic feature).


In practical terms I wouldn't expect a Beastbarian to be deterred even if the DM did rule that Rage bonuses weren't available while Polymorphed--either way it's still more HP on top of his Beast HP, as long as he somehow gets Rage bonuses back once Polymorph ends. Free HP, better to-hit, more damage, and is still excellent for him, and it's not like they're actually going to use up all 150+ HP in a typical Rime of the Frost Maiden fight anyway, even without Ragesistance.

Agreed.

Endnote:

¹- "Many who have observed a bladesinger at work remember the display as one of the more beautiful experiences in their life, a glorious dance accompanied by a singing blade."
Now imagine that, on a T-REX!!!! :D

[Valmark]

Personally I'd go for Summon Greater Demon. I honestly don't really care about the sheer combat potential (though it's still good) so much as the utility it offers through demons like the Dybbuk (or homewever it's written) or the Shadow Demon.

The long duration of the summons is kind of... Meh, to me. This is obviously biased by my experience but tipically if a summon is an actual threat it either gets focused down (thus not surviving for more then an encounter unless the enemies are too weak or the party is sinking resources into keeping the summon alive) or the caster gets focused down which is tipically a problem, though depending on their defenses and the Concentration save (and the rest of the party) it can be mitigated.

The Slaad summon is a bit of an exception, but it's also awfully boring. It's basically just a brute.

Notable exception if the DM rules that a necromancer wizard boosts the Summon Undead spell- if they do, it becomes both much better then the Tasha competitors and also pretty flavorful.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not saying Rage ends (as long as the requirements for it not to end are fulfilled, which they probably will); I'm saying you don't get its benefits while you are Polymorphed, because these benefits are specific class features of the Barbarian; I wouldn't let a Vengeance Paladin to keep his advantage from Vow of Enmity either, or a Bladesinger to keep his Bladesong abilities after he's activated them. Would you? ¹ If you stop being Polymorphed and the Rage still hasn't finished, now that you are, again, a Barbarian, you get the benefits from it.

It's entirely different from benefits you get from a spell, as those are independent of even having a class, so they are not part of your game's statistics; except, perhaps, spells which can only target yourself (but even those don't require being able to normally cast spells; see Ring of Spell Storing, or many other items that allow casting self-spells without requiring the spellcasting or pact magic feature).

Ah, I see your argument now. I was misled by the fact that you said that "raging is not a condition," but it appears that the actual point you're trying to make is the opposite of what I thought: you're saying that Raging is a condition, but that only Barbarians get special benefits from it, whereas spells affect anyone who fits their target profile. This same logic would imply that e.g. a human who had been Dominated by Dominate Person but was temporarily Polymorphed into a chicken would cease to be dominated while Polymorphed.

That's not the ruling I would make, but I could live with that logic/ruling as a player, because at least it's consistent. (It does raise interesting questions about what happens when you Polymorph someone possessed via Magic Jar, but that's a different subject.)


Personally I'd go for Summon Greater Demon. I honestly don't really care about the sheer combat potential (though it's still good) so much as the utility it offers through demons like the Dybbuk (or homewever it's written) or the Shadow Demon.

The long duration of the summons is kind of... Meh, to me. This is obviously biased by my experience but tipically if a summon is an actual threat it either gets focused down (thus not surviving for more then an encounter unless the enemies are too weak or the party is sinking resources into keeping the summon alive) or the caster gets focused down which is tipically a problem, though depending on their defenses and the Concentration save (and the rest of the party) it can be mitigated.

The Slaad summon is a bit of an exception, but it's also awfully boring. It's basically just a brute.

Notable exception if the DM rules that a necromancer wizard boosts the Summon Undead spell- if they do, it becomes both much better then the Tasha competitors and also pretty flavorful.

IMO the primary value of long duration summons is being able to pre-cast them, so that you don't need to spend round 1 of a fight summoning them (and dealing with the weirdness of PHB initiative, whereby it's apparently better at least by RAW for summoned creatures to roll low on initiative than high, to reduce the chances of not getting to act on round 1 if they roll higher than you did). It also lets you do things like give them Inspiring Leader temp HP and/or pre-buff them or exclude them from the friendly fire of e.g. pre-cast Spirit Guardians. Summon Greater Demon tends to miss out on all of that stuff (but it's still a great spell).

Having a pre-cast spell is also good for denying the enemy knowledge of who the caster even is, so the enemy can't focus them down, as you put it.

RE: Necromancers, also be sure to ask the DM if killing someone via Summon Undead triggers Grim Harvest. If it does that's a ton of healing you can get during and after combat, by asking all the other PCs to use nonlethal damage whenever they reduce a monster to 0 HP, so you can finish off all the enemies via your spell and get 9-15 HP per creature killed that way.

[Valmark]

IMO the primary value of long duration summons is being able to pre-cast them, so that you don't need to spend round 1 of a fight summoning them (and dealing with the weirdness of PHB initiative, whereby it's apparently better at least by RAW for summoned creatures to roll low on initiative than high, to reduce the chances of not getting to act on round 1 if they roll higher than you did). It also lets you do things like give them Inspiring Leader temp HP and/or pre-buff them or exclude them from the friendly fire of e.g. pre-cast Spirit Guardians. Summon Greater Demon tends to miss out on all of that stuff (but it's still a great spell).

Having a pre-cast spell is also good for denying the enemy knowledge of who the caster even is, so the enemy can't focus them down, as you put it.

RE: Necromancers, also be sure to ask the DM if killing someone via Summon Undead triggers Grim Harvest.

While true, from what I've seen (and from what I personally think) pre-casting them isn't a great idea. Reason being that they take Concentration, which risks you needing to drop it because you needed some other spell.

I don't even cast Conjure Animals ahead of time with my Sheperd because of this.

(Of course this extends to more then just summoning spells, but that's what we are talking about).

[MaxWilson]

While true, from what I've seen (and from what I personally think) pre-casting them isn't a great idea. Reason being that they take Concentration, which risks you needing to drop it because you needed some other spell.

I don't even cast Conjure Animals ahead of time with my Sheperd because of this.

(Of course this extends to more then just summoning spells, but that's what we are talking about).

It depends. I'm just saying it's nice to have the option. I agree that sometimes you want to avoid committing too early. Other times, letting the enemy know that targeting the druid will get rid of all the snakes is a bad idea, especially if the enemy is smart enough to recognize the spell and has access to ranged attacks--druids tend to be squishy.

Yet another reason to love Lyrandar warlocks (see my .sig) is that having to drop concentration on Conjure Elemental or Minor Elementals isn't as painful if you can get that spell slot back anyway with 60 minutes of rest. (If the DM rules that hostile elementals are hostile enough to attack you like an uncontrolled demon, you may have to kill it instead of dropping concentration but my point is about the resource cost, not the disposal method.)

[Merudo]

Off-the-cuff observation: that actually looks like a party where Polymorph would be very valuable, since the Tempest Cleric, the Paladin, and possibly the spores druid rely on resource expenditure to get good damage (so Polymorph can let the Paladin save smites for later, for example), while the Beast Barbarian is not only thematically compatible with Polymorph--its Rage doubles the effective HP of a Giant Ape while simultaneously increasing its damage! He'll be trading at most 3 attacks at +8ish for d6+7/d6+7/2d6+7 (35) for two reach attacks at +9 for 3d10+8/3d10+8 (49) and 157 HP. He should be BEGGING you to Polymorph him.

Keep in mind the opportunity cost of concentrating on the Giant Ape - concentrating on Summon Aberration (Beholderkin) or Summon Undead (Skeletal) would add 23-24 DPR over what the Barbarian is doing by herself.

Sure, you do get the benefit of a stack of HP, but you lose a lot of flexibility of being to use the Barbarian's class features at will.

I also don't think the rage interpretation is supported by the rules. My understanding is that holding concentration is not a class feature, while the benefits of the barbarian's rage are.



I've only run parts of Rime of the Frostmaiden but I remember it as surprisingly deadly for a WotC adventure especially at level 1, but not particularly an endurance grind (more "one deadly fight" than "6-8 easy fights") so Summon Greater Demon is probably perfectly fine there. But I'd learn definitely ask the Beastbarian if they're interested in the occasional Beast Mode collaboration, and learn Polymorph if so. Under some circumstances, in tough fights, you can even potentially use SGD and Polymorph at the same time (after the demon breaks control).

Yes, I might just end up with Summon Greater Demon after all. I'm thinking I could take the following spells at level 7-8:

- Polymorph
- Conjure Greater Demon
- Fire Shield (for resistance to cold damage)
- Divination (as a ritual)

[MaxWilson]

Yes, I might just end up with Summon Greater Demon after all. I'm thinking I could take the following spells at level 7-8:

- Polymorph
- Conjure Greater Demon
- Fire Shield (for resistance to cold damage)
- Divination (as a ritual)

Looks reasonable, if Divination is allowed as a wizard spell for you. I don't love Fire Shield but at least you're taking it for the right reason (resistance) and not as a retaliation spell (doesn't pay off).

Personally I'd probably wind up with Polymorph, Summon Greater Demon, and two of Dimension Door / Fabricate / Arcane Eye / Evard's Black Tentacles / Sickening Radiance / Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound / Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum. Don't ask me which two or I'll start crying about all the ones I can't pick. :-P

N.b. the Mordenkainen ones at least are forward-looking spells, not for use at level 7ish, and so is Dimension Door (it's too expensive at level 7).

[Merudo]

Looks reasonable, if Divination is allowed as a wizard spell for you. I don't love Fire Shield but at least you're taking it for the right reason (resistance) and not as a retaliation spell (doesn't pay off).


Yeah I'm usually not a big fan of Fire Shield either, but I'm under the impression that there is considerable cold damage to be expected in the adventure (including the final boss). I wouldn't get it otherwise.



Personally I'd probably wind up with Polymorph, Summon Greater Demon, and two of Dimension Door / Fabricate / Arcane Eye / Evard's Black Tentacles / Sickening Radiance / Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound / Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum. Don't ask me which two or I'll start crying about all the ones I can't pick. :-P

N.b. the Mordenkainen ones at least are forward-looking spells, not for use at level 7ish, and so is Dimension Door (it's too expensive at level 7).

Thanks for the suggestions!

I'm not sure if Dimension Door would work well with the party - as a goblin I'm small sized, so the only person I'd be able to teleport is the barbarian.

Fabricate - I like the creativity in theory, but I struggle to come up with useful items to create. Also, getting the raw material might be difficult in Icewind Dale - although making snowmen and ice sculpture sounds fun!

I think it's the first time I see Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound getting recommended. I already took Alarm as a ritual, so I'm not sure what the Hound brings to the table beside a mediocre bite attack that is even less relevant at higher levels.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I'm not sure if Dimension Door would work well with the party - as a goblin I'm small sized, so the only person I'd be able to teleport is the barbarian.

Fabricate - I like the creativity in theory, but I struggle to come up with useful items to create. Also, getting the raw material might be difficult in Icewind Dale - although making snowmen and ice sculpture sounds fun!

I think it's the first time I see Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound getting recommended. I already took Alarm as a ritual, so I'm not sure what the Hound brings to the table beside a mediocre bit attack that is even less relevant at higher levels.

I'm not exactly recommending Fabricate/etc., I'm just saying what I personally would take/be tempted by. I enjoy being able to make stuff to solve problems that don't involve violence, especially for other people. I love being able to go, "here, let me knit your whole tribe fur coats for the winter from the fur of these yetis that were attacking you, and then I'll build new front doors for everyone too out of these trees!" (Note: possible RAW controversy over whether Fabricate is allowed to produce more than one object.) It doesn't accomplish any additional adventuring goals per se, but it's one of the things I love about playing D&D. I get a kick out of it. I wouldn't recommend Fabricate per se to someone unless I knew they had similar emotional drives RE: noblesse oblige and the use of power.

Dimension Door is something I want for Contingency at level 11, for combinations with Feather Fall (e.g. concentration spell like Wall of Force + Contingency: Dimension Door 500' straight up when I say the words "up my lad" while touching my nose + Feather Fall to drift back down, as a way of protecting that combination in a tough situation). Also for teleporting out of a monster's stomach if eaten by e.g. a Purple Worm. Again, not something that's worthwhile at level 7ish but worthwhile once level 4 slots become sort of cheap. I agree that being a goblin makes it less worthwhile--for those scenarios I'd rely on a Dybukk with Dimension Door instead (it is Medium).

Mordenkainens's Faithful Hound is an auto-kill spell if combined with a Wall of Force, but again, not applicable until level 9 at the earliest. It's important that the Hound doesn't require concentration so you can combo it with yourself even if you're the only wizard in the party, like you are. (The way I'd use it would be e.g. drop a Faithful Hound near myself and stand next to it; if a monster approaches and starts munching on me I can now Wall of Force it for an auto-kill, provided I can keep concentration long enough and it can't teleport, otherwise at least monsters are staying away from me!) IMO the bite isn't mediocre either, since it's 4d8 (18) magical piercing damage with a large to-hit bonus and advantage for unseen attacker--even if you're not using Wall of Force, it combos well with grappling, druid wildshape constriction, Repelling Blast, etc. It's not fantastic but I'm going to claim it's "solid" for a non-concentration spell, not "mediocre." It's just a bit tricky to control enemy movement to such an extent that you can claim that solid damage.

I think you know your playstyle better than I do, and it looks like you're also using Tasha's rules, so trust your instincts and go with that Divination/Fire Shield combo! BTW Fire Shield retaliation is pretty unimpressive because it requires spending HP to do damage, but it's better than usual when combined with Polymorph, FWIW, so that's a good synergy. And it's nice that Divination is a ritual so you won't have that spells-known pressure.

I won't say anything about the specific adventure except "enjoy!"

[Eldariel]

Polymorph and SGD is an incredibly solid combo and I fully endorse it. For the two other spells you'll get on 8, I'll mention two favourites of mine that haven't actually been mentioned to my surprise:

- Watery Sphere: It's a highly efficient combat spell, enabling repeated save-or-loses (Str-based, which is a tricky save to target in an AOE as a Wizard) against Large- targets for a whole minute. You can just toss it at the enemy every single round with a bonus action and they'll keep having to roll saves. It does allow repeat saves but if someone gets out you can simply ram it into them again (they get put prone and away so they might not be able to reach you next round) and unlike with most spells, its wording says "Anyone in the spell's space must make a saving throw" - no waiting until their turn (so reaction movement and such doesn't matter) and no limitation of one roll per round. And even on successful save it pushes people around: they get ejected if they make their save. The Large- limitation is a bit annoying but OTOH it's Str-save targeting so against Huge+ things that's generally not what you want to be doing anyways.

- Banishment: Future-looking spell, this is the only Charisma-targeting multitarget spell on the Wizard list. Annoyingly expensive to multitarget (takes 5th level slot for two, 6th for three targets) but it's the only real choice for hitting Charisma (obviously you don't cast this as a 4th level spell very often: single target save-or-lose has the problem of the spell being wasted if the save is made so unless you're a Diviner/Chronurgist and can thus mitigate saves or the enemy is just really bad at Cha-saves, I'd be leery of casting this with only one target). And Charisma is often a bad save especially for brutish things (obviously not Outsiders though, which makes this spell a bit of a funny case where its "intended" use is one you're less likely to hit except as a Diviner).

[Merudo]

Polymorph and SGD is an incredibly solid combo and I fully endorse it. For the two other spells you'll get on 8, I'll mention two favourites of mine that haven't actually been mentioned to my surprise:

- Watery Sphere: It's a highly efficient combat spell, enabling repeated save-or-loses (Str-based, which is a tricky save to target in an AOE as a Wizard) against Large- targets for a whole minute. You can just toss it at the enemy every single round with a bonus action and they'll keep having to roll saves.


Sadly, moving the Watery Sphere requires a full action, not just a bonus action. The opportunity cost of spending my action turn after turn on the Watery Sphere is very high and in my opinion dramatically reduces the usefulness of the spell.



- Banishment: Future-looking spell, this is the only Charisma-targeting multitarget spell on the Wizard list. Annoyingly expensive to multitarget (takes 5th level slot for two, 6th for three targets) but it's the only real choice for hitting Charisma (obviously you don't cast this as a 4th level spell very often: single target save-or-lose has the problem of the spell being wasted if the save is made so unless you're a Diviner/Chronurgist and can thus mitigate saves or the enemy is just really bad at Cha-saves, I'd be leery of casting this with only one target). And Charisma is often a bad save especially for brutish things (obviously not Outsiders though, which makes this spell a bit of a funny case where its "intended" use is one you're less likely to hit except as a Diviner).

You mention that Banishment is a good spell to upcast. However at that point, why not avoid the saving throw entirely and just cast Wall of Force?

[MaxWilson]

You mention that Banishment is a good spell to upcast. However at that point, why not avoid the saving throw entirely and just cast Wall of Force?

I'm in this camp too, of preferring Wall of Force and Polymorph to Banishment.

Now to be fair, there's also a fair number of things (e.g. Nycaloths) that can just bypass a Wall of Force via teleportation or something like it. However, there are other ways to disable them and I have generally already picked those other ways (e.g. Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or Polymorph). For me I just don't love the effect of Banishment enough to prioritize it over the other spells I want, and I'm not that excited about targeting Cha saves either, since they tend to be around the same strength as Wisdom saves anyway, better than Int or Dex saves.

And with Polymorph/Tasha's, you can grapple/prone/restrain/etc. them before releasing concentration, unlike Banishment.

On a side note, Banishment also runs into issues that I'd rather not to have deal with, needing customized material components for every target, which may or may not be Arcane Focus-eligible. But I think it wouldn't make my list even without that.

Side note: Planar Binding also targets Charisma, and the only reason it matters is because Planar Binding is super expensive to cast AND elementals have unusually weak Cha saves (and even then the biggest gap between Wis and Cha saves is +/-3, for Earth Elementals), so you get more mileage than you would if it targeted Wis. But not that much more mileage.

[Eldariel]

Sadly, moving the Watery Sphere requires a full action, not just a bonus action. The opportunity cost of spending my action turn after turn on the Watery Sphere is very high and in my opinion dramatically reduces the usefulness of the spell.

Ah yes, true; I haven't used it in a while, had it in the wrong box. Even so, once you're Concentrating, it's not that bad: your action isn't necessarily all that tied up unless the fight is really rough and you can use it to run someone across Spike Growth or similar hazards even if he keeps making his saves (admittedly he has some control over where he goes). And even without the movement clause it'd be a reasonably good spell, though a bit small. Repeat saves are the biggest selling point. It's rather slot efficient, basically covering your slot expenditure for one fight with a single casting.

EDIT: The big point is, the action to move it is almost as powerful as the action to cast it because of how it procs saves (as long as there are enemies within 30' of it, which should hopefully be the case when you're casting the spell).


You mention that Banishment is a good spell to upcast. However at that point, why not avoid the saving throw entirely and just cast Wall of Force?

Well, sometimes you want to hit multiple targets apart from one another (you can hit any targets within 60' of you) and sometimes targets can Misty Step/Teleport/similar. Sometimes enemy might also be dangerous if at all present and sometimes you want them to drop a spell (Banishment incapacitates). You're right though, often you'll just cast WoF, but I've found Banishment useful fairly often (though admittedly that character was a Diviner, which does enhance the spell a lot; he could cast it pretty reliably out of a 4th level slot on basically anything without legendary resistance, including magic resistant high Cha Outsiders).