[3.5] Party Question

[Thurbane]

Say you had a 4 person party as follows (races any standard LA +0 race, preferbaly those from PHB. No templates.):


Binder 8
Factotum 8
Bard 5/Master of Masks 3
Rogue 5/Chameleon 3

Would that party be able to tackle most of the standard challenges that an ECL 8 party would face, without having any full casters or a dedicated melee type?

Assume class levels are set, standard WBL, no TO/cheese (i.e. no kobold shenanigans, leadership/cohort exploits etc.).

Cheers - T

[Aracor]

What point buy or stat generation are you talking?

The best way to figure it out is to generate the characters and then compare them to a level 8 adventure or two.

[Thurbane]

What point buy or stat generation are you talking?

The best way to figure it out is to generate the characters and then compare them to a level 8 adventure or two.

I would assume standard point buy, elite array, or possibly a custom rolling system...

[Kayblis]

It's a squishy party. All characters can fight in melee but none excel at it. As long as you don't run melee brute types often, they'll perform well. Don't force them into a 'number check' kind of fight, and they'll be fine. Do notice they'll have many unique tools, so they'll probably want to solve encounters without combat or with stealth and surprise attacks often.

Now, that assumes a baseline competence. If the Factotum is running a surprise Iaijutsu throwing build, it's leagues stronger than the same Factotum hitting with a longsword and facetanking. A melee Binder performs differently from a DC-centric Binder. A Chameleon Rogue shifting item creation feats to make items is very different from one that picks martial focus and spends the feat in Power Attack. This is all we can say without actual builds, because the class is just the first layer of any character's mechanics.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

All four characters have Wild Cohort for a Warbeast Riding Dog with trip. They all have some kind of light barding as well. This should mostly solve the issue of having such as squishy party. (Since none of the characters have Druid or Ranger levels, you could even make those Magebred, but many will disagree so I'll not push it.)

The Bard is a Silverbrow Human with Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, a Badge of Valor, and the spell Inspirational Boost. So he adds 4d6 fire damage to everyone's attacks, including the dogs' bites and his own shortbow attacks. Since that's a noninstantaneous magical fire effect, every time a flammable opponent is damaged by it they need to make a reflex save or catch fire.

Binder probably binds Paimon and whichever 4th level vestige would be most beneficial. I'm not impressed with the 5th level vestiges, so I'd let Improved Binding wait until 9th so you can get Zceryll at 10th.

The Rogue probably wouldn't have Int or Wis 16, so just 2nd level spells if he goes either of those routes. I'd probably go TWF and pick the combat focus most days, wear Gloves of the Balanced Hand for ITWF.

Factotum is probably a Gnome of some kind with the weapon familiarity substitution for a quickrazor and maxed out Iaijutsu Focus. Have a few of a handful of ball bearings or marbles in a folded cloth on your belt, readied as a weaponlike object. You can quick-draw one and drop it in an adjacent square all as free actions, an opponent standing in that square will be flat-footed if they have fewer than 5 ranks in Balance.

That's honestly a whole lot of melee but it should be fine, a medium creature has eight squares around it and the dogs are fast.

Edit: To answer your original question, I think they'll be fine if they play smart/safe.

[Fizban]

The Factotum has one 3rd and two 2nd level sor/wiz spells.
The Chameleon has say one 3rd, two 2nd, and four 1st level cleric spells, or sor/wiz spells that they have in whatever spellbook they've acquired.
The Bard has has one or two 2nd and probably four 1st level spells.

They have no Cleric, or even an attempted substitute, so no. Multiple sources of hit point restoration, likely expecting the Binder to be in Buer mode all the time (wow, fun), do not solve this. One encounter with a monster that has a status effect that doesn't happen to be on the narrow list of Binder effects, or within the Chameleon's significantly delayed spell range, and they could be toast. They can't seriously spam Resist or Protection from Energy, Magic Circle, or Death Ward- they can't even cast Death Ward at all.

Buer gives everyone within 30' delay poison and disease, until the moment they set foot out of that range. Except it's not even a proper delay, it's just a delay of the effects of failure, so you don't get to heal skill your way out of it. Curses, paralysis, negative levels, ability damage, drain, negative levels, instant death all available at CR 8. As is petrification, though there isn't a proper cure at this level on the core list. Various esoteric effects can require Remove Disease specifically without actually being diseases, and anything that calls for a Heal spell is right out until they're ECL 14.

Opportunistic Piety is worth maybe 90-114 hit points per day depending on Wis, at 18-19 per round, with their single-round burst heal of Buer+Piety being around 30 points. Inspiration can provide up to 5*Int in magical damage per encounter by applying it to dice from spells, though its per round efficiency depends on the spell.

On the arcane side, well they have very little magical offense, by they could maybe, barely squeak by? They have a few 2nd level spells on the Bard and Chameleon, and the Master of Masks levels can provide a few more basically 2nd level or lower effects with the Dragon or Archmage masks, if chosen. At most, they have one 3rd level spell, but EL 8 has a ton of room for multi-foe and even multi-swarm-foe encounters for which they simply will not have the AoEs. The best I can say is that Opportunistic Piety for heal/damage is more reliable against incorporeal undead, assuming they aren't killed while they're digging through the hit points.

Furthermore, they're all squishy, except maybe the Binder if they're also bringing the heavy armor vestige. Such a multi-foe encounter could easily overwhelm them, or force them to chain-heal at a choke point, by simple force of arms. If they have to fight anything with DR, well I sure hope they all have a big bag of perfectly selected anti-DR weapons. They don't even really have any more physical attackers: the Rogue's 3d6 sneak attack is around normal, but the Factotum can only make a couple sneak attacks per combat, the Binder isn't any better at hitting things than a Cleric. Unless, or even if the Bard is pushing some serious buff power, the party is still pretty much a pile of basic attacks from not-combat-specialized characters. They deal what, maybe 10 damage per attack? 40 per round is not nothing, assuming each of them hits at least once. But that also assumes they all attack rather than having to take some other action, and all bypass DR, and being non-specialists AC and miss chance will be worse, cash sunk into weapons will probably be lower, etc.

Battlefield Control? They have zero wall creation unless the Chameleon brings Stone Shape for the earliest (and flimsiest) wall or they find the obscure Wall of Chains (still flimsy). Any success they have will be predicated almost entirely on the outsized power of the worst offenders: Grease, Glitterdust, and Web. They have just enough 2nd level spells to cast reliably cast one 2nd and one 1st per combat, if they don't use those spells for anything else. If, heavens forbid, those spells were nerfed to more reasonable effects based on actual full caster use? Ha.


But yeah. No serious status removal, no serious arcane offense, no serious tank. A party of generalists lacks the specialized power the game expects, by definiton. A series of "standard" encounters can certainly chosen for them to beat, but if "standard" encounters means being able to succeed against most published monsters and module encounters without DM adjustment, then no. Even modules optimizers complain about being too easy, can still easily have individual encounters that this team simply has no answer for, and I wouldn't run them into those known for being dangerous or against MM3 stuff at all. Could they perfect WBL their way through? Maybe, but that's not the party's abilities. This is a party where most encounters go from "expend some resources with little risk or easy if handled properly," to "possible if handled properly," in my estimation.

They have just enough that if they leverage everything to the fullest, always know the full stats of what they're up against, and are never surprised (particularly by a magical stalker used to full extent of the DM), then they could probably pull it off. In this way, they are kindof a perfect example of the char-op/forum attitude when applied to intentionally "sub-optimal" characters: it is possible to win, there is always a line, if the players know exactly what they're doing and are in charge of what happens. But that's not how the game is expected to go, anything not expected or accounted for, like oh say random encounters means they need to turn tail, and if the DM actually met their level of tactics with the same they would be screwed.


Consider: this party could be put against a Nycaloth (my favorite MM3 example) as a "standard" boss encounter of "only" +2 above their level. It has 161 hit points, flight 90' Good, AC 23, main attacks at around +15 for 25 damage, DR 10, broad resistances, SR 24, and Deeper Darkness, Fear, Invisibility, Mirror Image, See Invisibility, and of course Greater Teleport at-will. There is at least one published module that uses this monster, the reason I noticed it's bustedness, where the party could see it as early as the starting 9th level (as the adventure completely fails to indicate where the party should *actually* go first), where the Nycaloth is also encountered with a Cleric. How does the given party even fight this thing?

But that's not really fair- the whole module is busted, starting with an EL 12 and having few if any encounters of EL 9, despite supposedly starting at 9th. What about something more reasonable?

A standard Dread Wraith, CR 11, again within range for a boss fight. AC 25, incorporeal, 104 hit points, DC 25 for 1d8 Con drain.. Their best weapon is Opportunistic Piety for say 24 points per attack, followed by Magic Missiles for 10 points per attack. I don't see them taking it down any faster than 3 rounds, with luck, assuming it doesn't even use wall hiding and Spring Attack to maximum effect. That's 3d8 Con. It's a fight you need Death Ward for, and they flat out don't have it.

Even just a pair of Wraiths at EL 7, with 64 hit points between them and up to 2d6 Con per round (with much lower attack and Fort save), still quite capable of killing someone in two rounds, and that's supposed to be an easy fight.

A pair of Mummies, EL 7: DR 5/-, double save vs paralyze. Mummy Rot doesn't go away until magically cured, and requires a DC 20 caster level check. The Chameleon has CL 6 for a 35% chance per roll, and can cast Remove Disease once per day. Even a single affected party member could take days to cure.

A single Huge Earth Elemental, EL 7: 152hp, DR 5/-, 20 damage per hit up to two hits. DPR exceeds even their 1/5 round maximum, likely kills any party member in two rounds, and they can't beat this DR. How much damage can they put out with 1st level spells as readied actions when it pops out?

A single Aboleth, EL7: if Enslave lands, it requires Remove Curse to remove if the party is unable to kill the Aboleth, which they almost certainly do not have the magic ready to pursue, in its home environment, even ignoring the illusion spam. The Slime transformation requires immediate Remove Disease to stop or it becomes permanent until they can bring a Heal spell.

A single Chaos Beast, EL7: a lethal transformation that if it lands requires immediate Restoration to stop- not particularly fair when an ECL 7 party is just now expected to have the spell at all (Remove Disease on the Aboloeth is two levels ago, better), but this party couldn't prepare it even if they knew to.

A single Succubus, EL7: at-will DC 22 Charm, Ethereal Jaunt, and can apply negative levels (DR, resistances, etc). This party cannot remove negative levels or restore lost levels, and with their limited spells are unlikely to have Magic Circle readied, nor would I expect a pile of Protection from Alignments. The party also has little or no ability to See Invisibility, even once they are aware of a stalking danger to be on guard. Yet again, it's a monster than depends mostly on the DM's use of it, but if anything lands, this party hurts.

A single Tyrannosaurus, EL8: 180 hit points, swallow whole. How many hit points do each of these characters have? 50 or so? 23 points on the first hit, another 17 per round if swallowed. I guess they hope it swallows the Rogue so they can get multiple auto-sneaks from the inside? Remember that a fight is not actually a challenge worth xp if there is no risk, so if the party is capable of just flying and shooting it to death, that's not actually an encounter. But this party lacks sufficient slots to actually do that, and with no ranged specialist they would probably need quite a bit of encounter distance to whittle it down on the way in.

Four Dire Wolves, EL 7: 45 hit points each, equal number to the party and nearly equal hit points. I wouldn't expect a death here, but having an encounter below their level which is a set of nearly even duels smells waaay off.

Juvenile Blue Dragon, EL 8: 142 hit points, breath weapon DC 20 for 36 with no metabreath. Fails to one-shot, as it well should, but where a normal party could have brought a spare Mass Resist on principle and force a prolonged fight, this party has to specifically be ready for it. With Opportunistic Piety kicking around they can certainly heal through the breath, until it runs out- will they trade well enough at range to win while burning all their burst heals?


Is that enough examples?

[gijoemike]

The Factotum has one 3rd and two 2nd level sor/wiz spells.

snip

Is that enough examples?

Dang. This is one of the best responses I have ever seen calculating CR and party possibilities. Very well done.



I have nothing that can be added. This party can do HP damage, and heal HP. The moment any sort of status or ability damage they cannot fix it. They are going to lose by attrition over the course of a few battles. The moment magical defense/offense is required they lack it. They have a lot of skill options, feat options, and melee/archery.

This is playing D&D on hard mode.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the feedback. So the responses so far vary between "might be OK if they are well built", and "this is a walking TPK waiting to happen". :smalleek:

I've had to deal with suboptimal parties before, and throw in a bunch of loot to assist with status effects etc. The above party was more of a thought exercise than anything...

[Fizban]

Dang. This is one of the best responses I have ever seen calculating CR and party possibilities. Very well done.
Thank you.


Thanks for the feedback. So the responses so far vary between "might be OK if they are well built", and "this is a walking TPK waiting to happen". :smalleek:

I've had to deal with suboptimal parties before, and throw in a bunch of loot to assist with status effects etc. The above party was more of a thought exercise than anything...
Well, that is focusing on monsters they're bad against. As I said, as long as you're picking the encounters with the party in mind, it should be possible to avoid any that give them big trouble and only present those that require preparation where they can be prepared.

Or they could just add a Cleric, replacement or 5th wheel. At that point they're only missing their magical offense, and it's lot easier to shore up one missing role with magic items than two, or to prepare specifically for something when they can survive the first time and recover for a second go.

[Taffimai]

A lot of their shortcomings could be remedied with potions and wands. If these were my players, I'd probably houserule in a proper Restoration potion and see how they get on. You're supposed to give a certain percentage of all loot as consumables anyway, which I usually forget about, but for this party that might be the easiest answer.

[Thurbane]

A lot of their shortcomings could be remedied with potions and wands. If these were my players, I'd probably houserule in a proper Restoration potion and see how they get on. You're supposed to give a certain percentage of all loot as consumables anyway, which I usually forget about, but for this party that might be the easiest answer.

I stumbled across a Potion Of Restoration as loot in a 3rd party module I DMd once, and was like "Huh, how can that be. Potions only go up to 3rd level (aside from PrCs like Master Alchemist)"?

Then I realized: a Healer could make it! I'm 100% it was just an oversight by the writers, but it became a regular feature in my games. :smallsmile:

[Glimbur]

It also depends on the kind of game you want to run . Such a skilled and varied party could cut through some court intrigue, even with the occasional assassin. I am convinced by the list of monsters by CR that they will have a bad time on a standard dungeon crawl.

[Fouredged Sword]

Thank you.


Well, that is focusing on monsters they're bad against. As I said, as long as you're picking the encounters with the party in mind, it should be possible to avoid any that give them big trouble and only present those that require preparation where they can be prepared.

Or they could just add a Cleric, replacement or 5th wheel. At that point they're only missing their magical offense, and it's lot easier to shore up one missing role with magic items than two, or to prepare specifically for something when they can survive the first time and recover for a second go.

I keep a pocket DMPC for exactly this sort of party.

Fitzgerald is a very brave nice but panicky coward of a healer who freaks out at the idea of hitting anything or actually, you know, fighting anything. He wants to help really, he's just not all that bright and his response to getting attacked by a chicken will be to run behind the nearest party member and scream like a little girl despite having whatever character level the party is at, doesn't matter if it's 1 or 20.

A good DMPC is flavorful, funny, and absolutely useless outside the specific niche that they are filling.

[WhamBamSam]

The Chameleon can potentially have discounts on most of the spells mentioned by plundering lists other than Cleric or Sor/Wiz (many of the status healing spells are lower level on the Healer list, for example). It's still stretching a pretty small number of spell slots very thin though.

[Fizban]

I keep a pocket DMPC for exactly this sort of party.
I provided a Cleric when I ran RHoD as well, but then you get to pick between two problems: either you run the Cleric yourself, and the players don't get the experience/respect/etc for the importance of the role, or one of the players ends up playing two characters (probably the one whose main character was already a spellcaster, for double the pressure).

Even so, I was having a think about solutions for the two easily missable roles more recently, and came to a concept I kindof like even if I don't actually want to use it. It goes: so if the party doesn't have a Cleric, they need that- and further, lots of people making "Rogues" and "scoundrel"-type characters don't actually care about Trapfinding and may in fact build their character without it. Any body can be buffed into a tank, and everyone likes boomsticks, but those two are a problem. How to solve both problems with one character? Well, turns out the rogue/caster PrCs don't really cover it well. But, the Kobold domain gives you a Cleric that just has Trapfinding and the required skills.

But kobolds suck, and I don't really want to jam one in the party when I'd rather not have them around. Yet, with the extra dex and size and natural armor, a kobold cleric makes an even better backup tank. And as one prospective player expressed interest in Bloodborne stuff- what if this kobold cleric, trapfinder and status remover, was a wretch? An annoying, sniveling, bad-tempered ball of rags and muck. That could help the party as required, but for their own ends, and if they don't treat them well. . .

But having the NPC healer+trapfinder the party relies on backstab them is waaaay outside of my style. But would also be just so effective.