How to make a mailman?

[47948201]

For the unaware, the mailman is a build from a previous edition where the idea was basically "rain or shine, hell or high water, you WILL deliver the mail. And in this case, the 'mail' is damage." It focused on dealing tons of direct damage in spite of whatever AC or save bonuses or resistances the enemy might have. It wasn't the best way to play a caster, but sometimes you just wanna nuke things, and that's good fun.

5e obviously doesn't have ridiculous things that let you reliably deal 300 damage per round. But I do have to wonder if there's a way to deliver a larger quantity of mail or ensure the mail gets delivered more reliably than "14th level evoker wizard overchannels magic missile, then uses metamagic adept, 2 fighter levels, and 2 hexblade levels to cast two sets of agonizing blasts" or "3rd level assassin uses 3 sorcerer levels to go invisible and surprise enemies with its 2 fighter levels and 2 hexblade levels to roll way too many d20s for its advantage agonizing blast criticals" or "literally just an evoker or scribes wizard casting meteor swarm"?

[Kane0]

Unfortunately I think you have it already, i'm not aware of much else in the way of blasting that you didn't already touch on unless you want to dive into UA.

Edit: You could maybe make a case for Assassin rogue getting crits with Attack roll spells? There aren't a lot of attack roll spells though.

[LudicSavant]

But I do have to wonder if there's a way to deliver a larger quantity of mail or ensure the mail gets delivered more reliably than "14th level evoker wizard overchannels magic missile, then uses metamagic adept, 2 fighter levels, and 2 hexblade levels to cast two sets of agonizing blasts" or "3rd level assassin uses 3 sorcerer levels to go invisible and surprise enemies with its 2 fighter levels and 2 hexblade levels to roll way too many d20s for its advantage agonizing blast criticals" or "literally just an evoker or scribes wizard casting meteor swarm"?

There is indeed a way to ensure the mail gets delivered more reliably than those things!

Here is one of the ways: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170

It's basically an improved version of your Evoker 14 / Fighter 2 / Hexblade 2 idea (largely because the 2nd Hexblade level and the agonizing blasts don't actually outpace the benefits of wizard progression + using the correct combo spells).

In addition to being one of the best mail deliverers (both over short and long adventuring days), it's also a bloody good controller (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625274-How-to-optimize-Evokers&p=24881878#post24881878).

[Rukelnikov]

You could maybe switch your actions a bit, but the usual builds are gonna exploit hexvokers sinergy with Magic Missile or maybe Scorching Ray. However those builds are nova builds which means your resources won't last long, you won't be able to pull this off every encounter (if talking about a dungeon crawl), and any build involving assasssin is already dependant on getting surprise so I wouldn't consider it "reliable".

IDK there are other things you can do like be a tabaxi Psionic warrior and do 200 ft suplexes (20d6) with your enemies and stuff like that.

And if going for a caster, the humble Sorlock is amongst the most reliable damage dealers I've seen in play. I played a non min-maxed one doing no shenanigans, and its damage was very consistent.


Unfortunately I think you have it already, i'm not aware of much else in the way of blasting that you didn't already touch on unless you want to dive into UA.

Edit: You could maybe make a case for Assassin rogue getting crits with Attack roll spells? There aren't a lot of attack roll spells though.

I hadn't considered it before but I guess one could do Assassin3/Tempest 6/Scribes11 to make really inneficient use of their high level slots for maximized Steel Wind Strikes... if a group of enemies is surprised that would be 120 damage a hit. Its obviously a theorycraft build since it "comes online" at lvl 18 (for that trick at least).

[LudicSavant]

You could maybe switch your actions a bit, but the usual builds are gonna exploit hexvokers sinergy with Magic Missile or maybe Scorching Ray. However those builds are nova builds which means your resources won't last long

Hexvokers actually have the potential to be very resource efficient, speaking as someone who's played them 1-20 in games that would feature 6+ Deadly encounters a day.

Yes, they cannot do their maximum nova on a regular basis, but their maximum nova is ridiculous overkill capable of hitting quadruple digit damage numbers and killing Tiamat twice over. You can totally spread out those resources and still be comfortably ahead of the game all day.

Basically, instead of having just a few absurd overkill novas, you can just have a large number of still huge novas. And even once those run out, you have boosted output with cantrips and low level slots.

That said, if you really want to just overkill mailman all day every day for an unlimited number of encounters... a bandoleer of Wands of Magic Missile makes that possible, and it's utterly bonkers. There's also the variant Nuclear Wizard build I posted that does Fighter Action Surge-like DPR at will using Spell Mastery.

[Waazraath]

For reference: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?447435-quot-The-Mailman-A-Direct-Damage-Sorcerer-quot-(from-Wizards-forums)

It was a sorcerer that casted every turn a lot of spells that targeted 1 opponent (due to metamagic and other tricks), with very high chance of hitting, and high damage.

I don't think i's too hard to be honest, due to edition differences. In 3.5, where it's from, direct damage was over all less optimal than buffing, debuffing, battlefield controll and save or die/suck spells. In 5e, direct damage already is stronger compared to 3.5, and the others are less strong (due to the concentration mechanic, the virtually removal of everything resembling save or die, most 'save or suck' effects' getting another saving throw each round, and legendary resistances).

I don't think much more is required than:
- picking sorcerer (to stick with the original and for metamagic);
- pick metamagics that enhance blasting, and try to fit in spells with twin/quicken to stay close to the original concept of 'casting lots of targeted spells'
- optionally pick an elemental affinity feat;
- optionally pick 2 levels of fighter for action surge, again, cause the original builds casted a lot of targeted spells and you can stay in the theme.

Do stuff like twin disintegrate, cast another one for good measure with action surge, and quicken a cantrip. Something like this.

[47948201]

Oh, wow! I honestly didn't even consider just using 8th-9th level slots for cursed empowered magic missiles. That's exactly the kind of overkill I'm looking for, and in a much simpler build!

[Rukelnikov]

Speaking as someone who's played them 1-20 in games that would feature 6+ Deadly encounters a day, Hexvokers have the potential to be very resource efficient.

Yes, they cannot do their maximum nova on a regular basis, but their maximum nova is ridiculous overkill capable of hitting quadruple digit damage numbers and killing Tiamat twice over. You can totally spread out those resources and still be comfortably ahead of the game.

That said, if you really want to just overkill mailman all day every day for an unlimited number of encounters... a bandoleer of Wands of Magic Missile makes that possible.

Yeah, the Hexvoker can still be really good while managing its resources, I was just thinking about the full 9th level + curse "combo", but you don't really need to do that.

Though about the bandoleer of Wands of Magic Missiles, that would turn anyone with minions into a nuclear wizard too, so IDK if I'd count it.


That said, if you really want to just overkill mailman all day every day for an unlimited number of encounters... a bandoleer of Wands of Magic Missile makes that possible, and it's utterly bonkers. There's also the variant Nuclear Wizard build I posted that does Fighter Action Surge-like DPR at will using Spell Mastery.

Oh I never read that one, at a glance 3d4+33 doesn't sound like that much, though I guess you are considering simulacrum for 6d4+66, you probably do weirder stuff I guess :smalltongue: Would you link it here?

[LudicSavant]

Oh, wow! I honestly didn't even consider just using 8th-9th level slots for cursed empowered magic missiles. That's exactly the kind of overkill I'm looking for, and in a much simpler build!

https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png


Yeah, the Hexvoker can still be really good while managing its resources, I was just thinking about the full 9th level + curse "combo", but you don't really need to do that.

Though about the bandoleer of Wands of Magic Missiles, that would turn anyone with minions into a nuclear wizard too, so IDK if I'd count it.

*Nod*

Yeah, exactly! Even if you average all its resources out over 6+ encounters, the numbers you can get are still staggering.

Edit

Oh I never read that one, at a glance 3d4+33 doesn't sound like that much, though I guess you are considering simulacrum for 6d4+66, you probably do weirder stuff I guess :smalltongue: Would you link it here?

It should be mentioned in the "multiclassing variants" section of the Eclectic Builds post on the Nuclear Wizard, here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170).




*snip*

What's good for Spell Mastery? Here's some ideas:
Big Sustained DPR: 3 vanilla GWM attacks (+6 to hit, 2d6+15 damage) against AC 19 is worth just 27.45 DPR. A single level 1 Magic Missile with Empowered Evocation is worth 25.5 DPR. Magic Missile + Dragon's Breath, shared by you and your Simulacrum, means 51 guaranteed MM damage plus 21/save for half AoE damage from your two familiars. That's a lot of at-will damage, and it still leaves your bonus action open for something like Crown of Stars or Hexblade's Curse, too.

*snip*


So for perspective, a level 19 Action Surging GWM Champion does around 70 DPR vs AC 19 (including accuracy, crit chance, chance of getting a bonus action attack from GWM, etc). Non-GWM champions usually do less. A Champion with some of the new Tasha's tools can do more.

Before we even talk about Hexblade dips or the like, a level 18 Evoker with Spell Mastery: Magic Missile and Dragon's Breath at-will can double up with their Simulacrum and familiar for (3d4+18)*2 + (3d6/save for half)*2 damage. So that's 51 auto-hitting damage, and 21 "save for half" damage (meaning part of it is guaranteed). That's without Hexblade's Curse or anything.

If you opt not to take Spell Mastery at all, you're still looking at being able to double up Potent Toll the Dead for 8d12 (52)/save for half. Oh, and the Deathvoker (e.g. Death-Cleric-dipping Evoker) can twin that at-will.

And of course, you can still dramatically augment all of this with resources, spread efficiently throughout the day. As such, your damage potential even over long adventuring days is aces.

So yeah. Basically Evokers have a lot of potential for efficiency between stuff like Potent Toll the Dead, Spell Mastery, Bonfire combos, and (most importantly) just spreading out their overkill nova resources across the day.

[Rukelnikov]

https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png



*Nod*

Yeah, exactly! Even if you average all its resources out over 6+ encounters, the numbers you can get are still staggering.

Edit


It should be mentioned in the "multiclassing variants" section of the Eclectic Builds post on the Nuclear Wizard, here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170).

(snip)

Thanks :smallsmile:

[JackPhoenix]

Do stuff like twin disintegrate, cast another one for good measure with action surge, and quicken a cantrip. Something like this.

Then get told "no", because if you quicken anything, you can't cast anything other than a cantrip. No twin Disintegrate.

[Waazraath]

Then get told "no", because if you quicken anything, you can't cast anything other than a cantrip. No twin Disintegrate.

Ah yeah, crap, that stuff where you can cast a quickened spell of any level and a cantrip with a normal action, but where you can can't cast a leveled spell as a normal action and a quickenend cantrip with a bonus action. Sigh. Stick with the three* disintegrates in that case, and use the quickened's when you're not twinning stuff.

Or bugger it, 4, if you also twin the one you cast with action surge. A bonus action cantrip is at that point just gravy anyway. Maybe just add a level of hexblade (even though a bit cheesy) for hexblade curse, warlock of the depths for a tentacle attack, or just rogue for a reliable movement or disengage as a bonus action.

[follacchioso]

Heat metal is a good spell for a "mailman" build, against any enemy wearing heavy armour. It's such a pleasant spell, delivering damage and disadvantage with no real save, and for the full duration.

[Aett_Thorn]

So I don't think that it's as open to cheese and weird rules interactions like magic missile, but the new UA has the Flame Stride spell, which allows you to do 1d6 fire damage to anything you come within 5 feet of. Upcasting that might be a decent AoE option for this kind of build if you come across a huge amount of enemies forming a double-line.

[Willie the Duck]

I don't think i's too hard to be honest, due to edition differences. In 3.5, where it's from, direct damage was over all less optimal than buffing, debuffing, battlefield controll and save or die/suck spells. In 5e, direct damage already is stronger compared to 3.5, and the others are less strong (due to the concentration mechanic, the virtually removal of everything resembling save or die, most 'save or suck' effects' getting another saving throw each round, and legendary resistances).

In general, I agree. The mailman is edition specific because it was removing a weakness a much-loved-thing had in a specific edition (people like direct-damage casters, and 3e was bad for them). While you can have a highest-regular-damage type build in 5e, it won't have the same feel as a 3e mailman. It'd be more like a 3e Hulking Hurler or Uber-charger build (things to which the general response was kinda 'yeah... doing lots of damage against things vulnerable to physical attack was never the problem for 3e martials. Impressive effort though.')

As to actual build suggestions, I think the best concepts are mostly already mentioned. Nuclear Wizards, Hexvokers, or action surging Hexvokers are pretty top tier, limited only by prevalence of groups who don't use magic missile btb. Assassin casters make really good nova rounds. There's probably some combination of Sorcerer/Cleric or the like who can use an upcast Spirit Guardians to win at sustained damage (although radiant or necrotic probably is not reliable enough to count, actually this rules out lots of things now that I think of it).

[Dalinar]

So what happens if our mailman hits *really* bad weather?

Magic Missile is typically highly reliable, but there is one way to counter its damage: Shield. So let's say our target has that. Let's also say our target isn't wearing metal armor (no Heat Metal shenanigans) and has arbitrarily high AC and saves. We'll also say it has arbitrarily high skill checks and doesn't feel the need particularly to chase us through hazardous terrain (so Spike Growth etc. doesn't matter much). I'm not going to say it has resistance/immunity to all damage types because then we're looking at ways to ignore immunity to damage, which I'm not familiar with, but if any of y'all can think of something there let me know!

What's left? Critical strikes and save-for-half effects. The latter is mostly going to cover things with limited uses per rest, so I'll go with a crit chance build.

Let's try Champion 20. Let's assume we have a consistent source of advantage (maybe it lacks darkvision and can't see us) as well as GWM, PAM, and Elven Accuracy. (While a non-PAM build is probably typically more DPR, we want to maximize the number of chances we have to roll a critical strike.)

We attack four times per round, plus a BA attack from PAM. Given max STR, we do 1d10+15 on a regular hit (no reason not to take the -5/+10 every time), but we only hit on crits anyway so it's really 2d10+15. Our chance of hitting at least once is actually about 91%, and we're doing a whopping 50.7 DPR according to Ludic's calculator. On a target that lacks resistances/immunities but is otherwise near-impenetrable. And that's without spending Action Surge, Lucky, or other rest-based resources. Not too shabby! If we lose the advantage, we're still at 19.7 DPR.

Now there are still ways to completely negate the damage from this character (i.e. flying out of reach), but versus the absurdly tanky target dummy I described we're doing alright.

Now to figure out how to reliably damage this person from another plane...

[LudicSavant]

So what happens if our mailman hits *really* bad weather?

Magic Missile is typically highly reliable, but there is one way to counter its damage: Shield.

When the mailman hits a Shield, they... just deliver the mail anyways, rain or shine! :smallsmile:

Here are some of the ways I have used to bypass Shield playing Hexvokers:
Counterspelling it (and since they just cast Shield, they don't have a reaction to Counterspell you).
Disabling their reactions (such as with Summon Construct, which is also a good source of damage in its own right).
Baiting out their Reaction, such as intentionally provoking their OA.
Disabling their ability to use Somatic or Verbal components (ex: my Lore Bard teammate sometimes casts Silence).

And then here's the biggest, best way to bypass Shield that I use the most frequently of all:
Using one of the Hexvoker's numerous high damage options that don't even use Magic Missile.
For example, you could be Concentrating on an 8th level Tasha's summon that lasts an hour and can outdamage some entire martial characters, and your Simulacrum could do that too, and you could cast Meteor Swarm, and your Simulacrum could cast Meteor Swarm, and you could cast an Overchanneled L5 spell, and your Simulacrum could cast an Overchanneled L5 spell, and you could use Crown of Stars, and your Simulacrum could use Crown of Stars, and this stuff could be activating Hexblade's Curse procs, and you could toss in some extra minionmancy if you wanted.

You get the idea. The strength of the NW isn't that it has one good trick, it's that it has an entire Batman toolbelt of them.

Edit:

So let's say our target has that. Let's also say our target isn't wearing metal armor (no Heat Metal shenanigans) and has arbitrarily high AC and saves. We'll also say it has arbitrarily high skill checks and doesn't feel the need particularly to chase us through hazardous terrain (so Spike Growth etc. doesn't matter much). I'm not going to say it has resistance/immunity to all damage types because then we're looking at ways to ignore immunity to damage, which I'm not familiar with, but if any of y'all can think of something there let me know!

What's left? Critical strikes and save-for-half effects.

Well, Magic Missile could actually still work for reasons above. But let's say instead of merely casting Shield, they have a Brooch of Shielding (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Brooch%20of%20Shielding#content), which is harder to counter.

In which case, you can stack up a whole lot of damage just from save-for-half effects + the kind of action economy shenanigans that a Fighter/Wizard can bring to the table.

You could then...
- Concentrate on something that offers a save for half.
- Overchannel something that has a save for half.
- Action Surge and cast something else that has a save for half (like Meteor Swarm).
- Double all of the above with Simulacrum.
- If you have prep time before kicking down the door / scry and die / whatever, you can add in stuff like Freezing Spheres.

You could also deliver your mail with your cantrips, thanks to the Potent Cantrip feature making those deal half damage on a successful save, too. Spell Mastery spells will work, too. So you could deal decent resourceless DPR against this guy, too!

[KorvinStarmast]

Here is one of the ways: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170

It's basically an improved version of your Evoker 14 / Fighter 2 / Hexblade 2 idea (largely because the 2nd Hexblade level and the agonizing blasts don't actually outpace the benefits of wizard progression + using the correct combo spells). Heh, if I ever get to play in a level 20 One Shot, I am tempted to play that build, and to name him Carlmalone.
Yes, that's a reference to an NBA great who used to play for the Utah Jazz NBA team

[DwarfFighter]

I initially thought this would be a pretty lame topic, but at "by 'mail' I mean 'damage'" I changed my mind.

Please build the best mailman 5e has to offer!

-DF