camcoyote
2021-04-16, 04:37 AM
I am working on a Mastermind Rogue x / Battlemaster Fighter multiclass, but I have a few questions. The concept is a young upstart noble who is simultaneously a brilliant battlefield tactician and an avowed coward, hiding behind his "bodyguards" (i.e. the party) while throwing darts/daggers. I want to make good use of the Master of Tactics feature (bonus action ranged Help), and with Sharpshooter letting me throw darts at their long range, I would have an effective range of 30 to 60 feet. I don't want to multiclass outside of those two classes or choose different archetypes. I'm also not interested in cheesy, exploitative, broken, or otherwise subjectively rules-legal builds.
What I need help with is:
What feats, fighting styles, and maneuvers should I choose, and in what order?
Should I primarily be throwing daggers or darts?
How much of a fighter dip I should take?
When should I take fighter levels if I'm starting rogue?
Any ideas for maneuvers that combo with features, spells, etc.
I'm going to start with feats first, because they come with the option of additional fighting styles and maneuvers.
FEATS
Crossbow Expert: Would need this if only using darts to throw at any enemy if there's one in melee range. Still wouldn't be able to make melee attacks with a dart without Tavern Brawler.
Fighting Initiate: Several fighting styles work well with thrown weapons. How valuable is spending a feat on a second one?
Martial Adept: I don't think I'm going to take more than 6 levels of Fighter at the most, limiting my Superiority Dice and maneuvers known.
Piercer: Not very impactful with the dart/dagger's d4. Can it be used to reroll Sneak Attack damage?
Sharpshooter: Pretty much mandatory. 10 flat damage isn't that spectacular for Rogues, but negating disadvantage at long range is necessary for darts. Does this also work with daggers?
Skulker: Not so sure about this one, it seems like it could be hit or miss. I don't see the character as a stealthy fighter.
Tavern Brawler: Would allow me to make a melee attack with a dart as an improvised weapon (using DEX as it's finesse). Doesn't seem like I'd get much out of it, but still worth considering.
Magic Initiate OR Spell Sniper and/or Warcaster: Either can be used to grab Booming Blade, and Warcaster would allow that to be used as an Opportunity Attack. How useful is this as opposed to, say, going High Elf? Does BB work with Spell Sniper, and if so, can you make a ranged attack with it using a thrown dagger? If you had Thrown Weapon Fighting, would that then allow you to draw a dagger for that attack if your hands were empty after throwing one or more darts on your turn?
FIGHTING STYLES
Archery: Seems mandatory if primarily using darts, and combos with Sharpshooter
Dueling: Works if I'm throwing daggers, but I get that and more with Thrown Weapon Fighting. I assume they stack?
Superior Technique: Like Martial Adept above, I'm not sure how valuable this is, or if it would be wasting a fighting style if I took this. One or the other, both, or neither?\
Thrown Weapon Fighting: Mandatory if throwing more than one dart/dagger per turn. If I go less than 5 levels Fighter, is this still worth it?
Two-Weapon Fighting: Only useful when throwing daggers and would require Thrown Weapon Fighting or Dual Wielder feat to get the full benefit.
MANEUVERS
Bait and Switch: Not a good pick overall, but I have a combo with Mastermind's Misdirection feature below.
Commander's Strike: Notably doesn't combo with bonus action Help. Value goes up with Extra Attack, and can combo with Distracting Strike.
Distracting Strike: For turns when I need my bonus action for Cunning Action, I can still dole out advantage to an ally, or combine with Help for advantage on two enemies. Is this that useful when I already have Help nearly every round?
Feinting Attack: Can't use this and bonus action Help in the same turn, but gives me sneak attack when my target isn't engaged with an ally. Also helps with Sharpshooter.
Goading Attack: Can this combine with Mastermind's Misdirection? Would be useful even when directing an attack at an adjacent ally.
Menacing Attack: Generally seems good. Sort of combos with Steady Aim.
Precision Attack: Combos with Sharpshooter. Can notably use in the same turn with Commander's Strike and Extra Attack, but I'm not sure when I would use this over Feinting Attack and vice-versa.
Quick Toss: At first this seems perfect for this build, but it uses my bonus action. This is the only option that allows me to throw a dart as a bonus action, but I wouldn't know when to use it over any other maneuver + Help. This also opens up the option of throwing a dart, dealing Sneak Attack Damage, then using your reaction to ready another attack, giving you a somewhat reliable second Sneak Attack in a round.
Trip Attack: Similar to Distracting Strike but with greater potential benefits and detriments depending on how many melee/ranged in your party.
DAGGERS OR DARTS?
Daggers would allow me to attack twice per turn without Extra Attack, and benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting and the Dueling fighting styles (which are mutually exclusive). Dueling does stack with Thrown Weapon Fighting, for an additional +8 per turn with Extra Attack. Doesn't work with the -5/+10 benefit of Sharpshooter, but might from the benefit that removes disadvantage at long range? Not sure. They can be used with maneuvers as both melee and ranged attacks. Much more expensive than fighting with darts.
Darts benefit from both Archery and Thrown Weapon Fighting, and require the latter or Dual Wielder in addition to Extra Attack from Battlemaster 5 to throw more than one per turn (aside from Quick Toss, which is a limited resource). Sharpshooter increases the effective range to 60, which might not be the case for daggers. Could possibly take Crossbow Expert to throw at melee or ranged targets alike with an enemy in melee, although Disengage helps that. They can't be used to make melee attacks except as improvised weapons. Much less expensive than daggers.
ROGUE LEVELS VS FIGHTER LEVELS
My initial thought was to go Rogue 17/Fighter 3, which would give me maneuvers in addition to the Mastermind Capstone. One more level of fighter gives me an additional ASI at the cost of 1d6 Sneak Attack. A fifth fighter level loses an ASI but gives me Extra Attack. 6th level gets me that ASI back for 1d6 Sneak Attack, and 7th gives me Know Your Enemy, the physical counterpart to Mastermind's Insightful Manipulator.
So how deep into fighter should I go? I definitely want to start with Rogue, so when should I multiclass and for how long?
MANEUVER COMBOS
Booming Blade + Disengage (or Pushing Attack): Since I primarily want to fight at range, this seems like a good option for when I need to get out of melee range of an enemy.
Distracting Strike + Commander's Strike: Requires Extra Attack or Action Surge. Would allow a second Rogue to get a Sneak Attack outside their turn.
Bait and Switch + Misdirection: You get a free Disengage and swap places with an ally, and either you or your ally get an AC bonus. If the enemy attacks you, you can direct the attack to your ally, who has increased AC. Usable against ranged attacks as well. Also, the Disengage frees up your bonus action to Help or Hide (if you're a Lightfoot Halfling).
Any other combos you can think of or recommend? Anything else you can think of regarding this build that I haven't mentioned is welcomed. I'd love to hear what ideas you have about making this build work. Thanks!
Edit: I watched Treantmonk's throwing build and realized that with a dart build, my attacks will almost never be magical. With that in mind, I'm considering a 2-level dip into Artificer as well for the Repeating Shot infusion. This has made it much more difficult to decide the cutoff points for each class. If I go Rogue 15/Fighter 3, I lose an ASI and Extra Attack. If I go Rogue 13, Fighter 5, my sneak attack will only ever be 7d6. That's not too bad, is it?
For 2 darts, that's: 2d4 + 10 (DEX) +4 (Thrown Weapon) +2 (Returning Weapon) +1d8 (or 2d8, maneuvers) +7d6 and a potential +20 (Sharpshooter) = Average 50 (70 with Sharpshooter)
Alternatively, I can use Quick Toss to throw a dart, then ready an Attack action to throw another during the enemy's turn, giving me a second Sneak Attack that round for an average of 74.5 (104.5). Still seems low, and not sustainable.
That's at level 20, so I'm not sure the damage is high enough for what a rogue should be putting out at that level. Can anyone tell me if that's low? I don't necessarily want to focus only on dealing damage, but want to create a character that offers a lot of utility and support capabilities. Considering that, is it a good tradeoff for higher DPR?
What I need help with is:
What feats, fighting styles, and maneuvers should I choose, and in what order?
Should I primarily be throwing daggers or darts?
How much of a fighter dip I should take?
When should I take fighter levels if I'm starting rogue?
Any ideas for maneuvers that combo with features, spells, etc.
I'm going to start with feats first, because they come with the option of additional fighting styles and maneuvers.
FEATS
Crossbow Expert: Would need this if only using darts to throw at any enemy if there's one in melee range. Still wouldn't be able to make melee attacks with a dart without Tavern Brawler.
Fighting Initiate: Several fighting styles work well with thrown weapons. How valuable is spending a feat on a second one?
Martial Adept: I don't think I'm going to take more than 6 levels of Fighter at the most, limiting my Superiority Dice and maneuvers known.
Piercer: Not very impactful with the dart/dagger's d4. Can it be used to reroll Sneak Attack damage?
Sharpshooter: Pretty much mandatory. 10 flat damage isn't that spectacular for Rogues, but negating disadvantage at long range is necessary for darts. Does this also work with daggers?
Skulker: Not so sure about this one, it seems like it could be hit or miss. I don't see the character as a stealthy fighter.
Tavern Brawler: Would allow me to make a melee attack with a dart as an improvised weapon (using DEX as it's finesse). Doesn't seem like I'd get much out of it, but still worth considering.
Magic Initiate OR Spell Sniper and/or Warcaster: Either can be used to grab Booming Blade, and Warcaster would allow that to be used as an Opportunity Attack. How useful is this as opposed to, say, going High Elf? Does BB work with Spell Sniper, and if so, can you make a ranged attack with it using a thrown dagger? If you had Thrown Weapon Fighting, would that then allow you to draw a dagger for that attack if your hands were empty after throwing one or more darts on your turn?
FIGHTING STYLES
Archery: Seems mandatory if primarily using darts, and combos with Sharpshooter
Dueling: Works if I'm throwing daggers, but I get that and more with Thrown Weapon Fighting. I assume they stack?
Superior Technique: Like Martial Adept above, I'm not sure how valuable this is, or if it would be wasting a fighting style if I took this. One or the other, both, or neither?\
Thrown Weapon Fighting: Mandatory if throwing more than one dart/dagger per turn. If I go less than 5 levels Fighter, is this still worth it?
Two-Weapon Fighting: Only useful when throwing daggers and would require Thrown Weapon Fighting or Dual Wielder feat to get the full benefit.
MANEUVERS
Bait and Switch: Not a good pick overall, but I have a combo with Mastermind's Misdirection feature below.
Commander's Strike: Notably doesn't combo with bonus action Help. Value goes up with Extra Attack, and can combo with Distracting Strike.
Distracting Strike: For turns when I need my bonus action for Cunning Action, I can still dole out advantage to an ally, or combine with Help for advantage on two enemies. Is this that useful when I already have Help nearly every round?
Feinting Attack: Can't use this and bonus action Help in the same turn, but gives me sneak attack when my target isn't engaged with an ally. Also helps with Sharpshooter.
Goading Attack: Can this combine with Mastermind's Misdirection? Would be useful even when directing an attack at an adjacent ally.
Menacing Attack: Generally seems good. Sort of combos with Steady Aim.
Precision Attack: Combos with Sharpshooter. Can notably use in the same turn with Commander's Strike and Extra Attack, but I'm not sure when I would use this over Feinting Attack and vice-versa.
Quick Toss: At first this seems perfect for this build, but it uses my bonus action. This is the only option that allows me to throw a dart as a bonus action, but I wouldn't know when to use it over any other maneuver + Help. This also opens up the option of throwing a dart, dealing Sneak Attack Damage, then using your reaction to ready another attack, giving you a somewhat reliable second Sneak Attack in a round.
Trip Attack: Similar to Distracting Strike but with greater potential benefits and detriments depending on how many melee/ranged in your party.
DAGGERS OR DARTS?
Daggers would allow me to attack twice per turn without Extra Attack, and benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting and the Dueling fighting styles (which are mutually exclusive). Dueling does stack with Thrown Weapon Fighting, for an additional +8 per turn with Extra Attack. Doesn't work with the -5/+10 benefit of Sharpshooter, but might from the benefit that removes disadvantage at long range? Not sure. They can be used with maneuvers as both melee and ranged attacks. Much more expensive than fighting with darts.
Darts benefit from both Archery and Thrown Weapon Fighting, and require the latter or Dual Wielder in addition to Extra Attack from Battlemaster 5 to throw more than one per turn (aside from Quick Toss, which is a limited resource). Sharpshooter increases the effective range to 60, which might not be the case for daggers. Could possibly take Crossbow Expert to throw at melee or ranged targets alike with an enemy in melee, although Disengage helps that. They can't be used to make melee attacks except as improvised weapons. Much less expensive than daggers.
ROGUE LEVELS VS FIGHTER LEVELS
My initial thought was to go Rogue 17/Fighter 3, which would give me maneuvers in addition to the Mastermind Capstone. One more level of fighter gives me an additional ASI at the cost of 1d6 Sneak Attack. A fifth fighter level loses an ASI but gives me Extra Attack. 6th level gets me that ASI back for 1d6 Sneak Attack, and 7th gives me Know Your Enemy, the physical counterpart to Mastermind's Insightful Manipulator.
So how deep into fighter should I go? I definitely want to start with Rogue, so when should I multiclass and for how long?
MANEUVER COMBOS
Booming Blade + Disengage (or Pushing Attack): Since I primarily want to fight at range, this seems like a good option for when I need to get out of melee range of an enemy.
Distracting Strike + Commander's Strike: Requires Extra Attack or Action Surge. Would allow a second Rogue to get a Sneak Attack outside their turn.
Bait and Switch + Misdirection: You get a free Disengage and swap places with an ally, and either you or your ally get an AC bonus. If the enemy attacks you, you can direct the attack to your ally, who has increased AC. Usable against ranged attacks as well. Also, the Disengage frees up your bonus action to Help or Hide (if you're a Lightfoot Halfling).
Any other combos you can think of or recommend? Anything else you can think of regarding this build that I haven't mentioned is welcomed. I'd love to hear what ideas you have about making this build work. Thanks!
Edit: I watched Treantmonk's throwing build and realized that with a dart build, my attacks will almost never be magical. With that in mind, I'm considering a 2-level dip into Artificer as well for the Repeating Shot infusion. This has made it much more difficult to decide the cutoff points for each class. If I go Rogue 15/Fighter 3, I lose an ASI and Extra Attack. If I go Rogue 13, Fighter 5, my sneak attack will only ever be 7d6. That's not too bad, is it?
For 2 darts, that's: 2d4 + 10 (DEX) +4 (Thrown Weapon) +2 (Returning Weapon) +1d8 (or 2d8, maneuvers) +7d6 and a potential +20 (Sharpshooter) = Average 50 (70 with Sharpshooter)
Alternatively, I can use Quick Toss to throw a dart, then ready an Attack action to throw another during the enemy's turn, giving me a second Sneak Attack that round for an average of 74.5 (104.5). Still seems low, and not sustainable.
That's at level 20, so I'm not sure the damage is high enough for what a rogue should be putting out at that level. Can anyone tell me if that's low? I don't necessarily want to focus only on dealing damage, but want to create a character that offers a lot of utility and support capabilities. Considering that, is it a good tradeoff for higher DPR?