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Man_Over_Game
2021-04-16, 12:12 PM
So the Artificer is in this really weird mental spot for me: It just has too many options.

And not like "Echo Knight with some Battlemaster Maneuvers" kind of options, but the kind that makes you spend hours on your character sheet trying to min-max the best feat/stat ratio.

It looks exhausting to manage, which just doesn't look all that fun to me. I avoided playing a Moon Druid for the same reason (too much prep just to leverage 1-3 decisions in a fight).

But how far off-course am I? Is the Artificer the most complex class for the sake of character-building, or is the pool a lot more shallow than it looks?

KorvinStarmast
2021-04-16, 12:23 PM
But how far off-course am I? Is the Artificer the most complex class for the sake of character-building, or is the pool a lot more shallow than it looks? As a DM, with one artificer in play I have decided to not allow them in my next campaign.

Too many fiddly bits and they just don't feel right to me.

That said, if I ever get a chance to play in a D&D 5e Eberron campaign, I really want to play an artificer so that I get a feel for how they play in their native setting ... but the odds of that are slim unless the COVID problem for public play goes away.

Renvir
2021-04-16, 12:32 PM
It certainly has a lot of levers to fiddle with. I don't mind it but everyone has their own threshold for that kind of thing. Building one wasn't too bad but I had a clear idea of what I wanted my character to look like. After that it was easy to pin point the options that helped me flesh out my idea. If I were going in totally blind I would be in your boat.

follacchioso
2021-04-16, 12:36 PM
I agree with you. Another class that gave me the same feeling is the Blood Hunter,

At the end of the day, Moon Druids are not so difficult. For the first levels, Brown Bear and Giant Spider are the best forms for combat, plus cats and badger to hide.



That said, if I ever get a chance to play in a D&D 5e Eberron campaign, I really want to play an artificer so that I get a feel for how they play in their native setting ... but the odds of that are slim unless the COVID problem for public play goes away.There is a good number of discord/avrae server with the Eberron setting.

Amnestic
2021-04-16, 12:37 PM
They've got paladin-style spellcasting, a subclass that usually dictates normal playstyle, and infusions (and some tool stuff, I suppose, though how much that affects play is...eh..., not really).

I don't see it as complex myself. Sometimes when you level you'll swap an infusion but for the most part it's a subclass that dictates your normal actions supplemented by some limited spellcasting, with your infusions being dealt with at the end of a long rest and rarely changing day-to-day.

In my head they're about equal to warlocks in complexity. Less complex buildwise than Clerics or Druids (prepared spellcasters who go to 9th level spells that can change daily).

quindraco
2021-04-16, 12:50 PM
I agree with Amnestic, I'm not seeing the huge levels of complexity. Much like a Moon Druid, this is admittedly helped by the fact that most infusions are bad infusions, so you can ignore them (e.g. it's deliberate that most common magic items aren't infusion grade). Most of the time, most artificers will skip most of the infusion list.

E.g. a veteran's cane and an alchemy jug are in the same niche (making money). You're not gonna take both, and you usually won't take either - and those are easily two of the best L2 infusions.

The L2 infusion list will usually boil down to choosing from:
Spellwrought Tattoo
Bag of Holding
Choose exactly 1: Enhanced Arcane Focus OR Repeating Shot OR Returning Weapon OR, if the weapon is neither ranged nor thrown, Enhanced Weapon
Enhanced Defense
Homunculus Servant
Mind Sharpener

That's just not that big a list, and as you level, it doesn't grow that quickly. For example, you are bad at being an Artificer if you spend a precious infusion slot on Boots of Elvenkind.

MoiMagnus
2021-04-16, 12:52 PM
I'm about to try it in a high level campaign.

My first impression is that there is a ton of good options easily accessible. I mean, there are some bad options, but a lot of the most intuitive choices are still quite good.

For example, you can do a ton of crazy stuff with your infusions (like the magic items that set CON or STR to 19), but on the other hand you can just make Armour +1 (and latter +2) to your whole team and everyone will love you.

Similarly, for spells, you have a lot of great support spells, and then you also can use them to heal your teammate between battles if you don't want to bother too much about them.

But yeah, that's the most complex class IMO. Everything has some secondary effect or use, some ways to customise at long rest, etc. It would be a nightmare to play optimally.

In term of complexity, it's pretty much a warlock except that you can (1) somewhat change your invocations/infusion at long rest (2) change your spells at long rest (3) Have more kind of spell slots to track.

Dork_Forge
2021-04-16, 12:59 PM
I've played Artificers a few times and DM'd one before, I'm not seeing what's so complex about them?

-Your normal style of play will be dictated by what subclass you choose

-Your infusions might sound dauting at first, but realistically you'll gravitate towards a few and keep them, maybe struggle at higher levels to pick one (like invocations)

-You're a prepared caster, but a half caster slot total with cantrips, you'll probably have some mainstay spells and a few you change based on the situation

They have less choices to make than a Warlock in some ways, and less resources to manage than a Paladin, in play they aren't hard to keep track of or use.

I just don't get the complexity that seems so overwhelming or fiddly, do you feel this way with anything else in the game?

Imbalance
2021-04-16, 01:57 PM
Sleep isn't on the class' spell list, but I suppose one could craft other means of wearing a creature out.

Waazraath
2021-04-16, 02:06 PM
So the Artificer is in this really weird mental spot for me: It just has too many options.

And not like "Echo Knight with some Battlemaster Maneuvers" kind of options, but the kind that makes you spend hours on your character sheet trying to min-max the best feat/stat ratio.

It looks exhausting to manage, which just doesn't look all that fun to me. I avoided playing a Moon Druid for the same reason (too much prep just to leverage 1-3 decisions in a fight).

But how far off-course am I? Is the Artificer the most complex class for the sake of character-building, or is the pool a lot more shallow than it looks?

I think it really depends on the build. Playing a level 10 Battlesmith atm, with crossbow, SS / CE. Due to party setup, almost all my spells are healing, utility, or self buff (shield/absorb elements/haste). In combat, I have enough choices (yes/know arcane jolt, yes/no flash of inspiration, yes/no -5/+10, use bonus action for a crossbow attack or for an attack with the steel defender, cast 'haste' the first round of combat and on myself or somebody else, where to position myself, where to position my steel defender, who to attack) but not so much it gets too complicated. Outside of combat, I am useful (utility spells, experitise with tools mainly thief tools, very high int skill checks, able to further raise skill checks with Guidance and Flash of inspiration), but again, nothing too complicated. I picked infusions to maximize buffing my party, not myself.

So during play, and for most of the build, no, not exhausting at all. The only part where I do recognize it a bit is in aligning spells and infusions with my party; should I be the one to counter invisible creatures, if so, with an infusion, with see invisibility, with feary fire... should I be the one who can disguise self, buffing my bluffs with enhance ability and flash of inspiration if needed, and should I cast it with a spell or use an infusion. And if I use an infusion, is this worth not having our Sorcerer have advantage on initiative, or being able to cast one extra Fireball/day?

But still: more fun than exhausting.

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-16, 02:43 PM
I think it really depends on the build. Playing a level 10 Battlesmith atm, with crossbow, SS / CE. Due to party setup, almost all my spells are healing, utility, or self buff (shield/absorb elements/haste). In combat, I have enough choices (yes/know arcane jolt, yes/no flash of inspiration, yes/no -5/+10, use bonus action for a crossbow attack or for an attack with the steel defender, cast 'haste' the first round of combat and on myself or somebody else, where to position myself, where to position my steel defender, who to attack) but not so much it gets too complicated. Outside of combat, I am useful (utility spells, experitise with tools mainly thief tools, very high int skill checks, able to further raise skill checks with Guidance and Flash of inspiration), but again, nothing too complicated. I picked infusions to maximize buffing my party, not myself.

So during play, and for most of the build, no, not exhausting at all. The only part where I do recognize it a bit is in aligning spells and infusions with my party; should I be the one to counter invisible creatures, if so, with an infusion, with see invisibility, with feary fire... should I be the one who can disguise self, buffing my bluffs with enhance ability and flash of inspiration if needed, and should I cast it with a spell or use an infusion. And if I use an infusion, is this worth not having our Sorcerer have advantage on initiative, or being able to cast one extra Fireball/day?

But still: more fun than exhausting.

That's one thing I didn't really consider.

I'm so used to planning something like a Sorcerer, where every single choice matters in the long run, but they aren't too difficult to build simply due to the limited number of choices you have when building that character. Taking that level of punishment for a mistake with something like an Artificer would be incredibly exhausting...except your decisions aren't permanent. If it turns out that a magic item build isn't working out, I can just...change it. There's no need for perfection. I don't have to build an entirely perfectly optimized Artificer from level 1 to 20 with very specific choices and then backup plans based on what abilities/roles my party has and may-or-may-not get, and...etc.

I can just **** around between each level, or hell, each day, and everything would be fine.

Thanks, that helped a lot.

Silpharon
2021-04-16, 02:54 PM
Yeah I've been doing a lot of build prep for my Armorer, but I don't necessarily have to. Multiclassing is what really makes it complicated (or fun, depending on your perspective). All 4 subclasses do really well when multiclassing, and there are a lot of great options. I've decided to take my Armorer to at least level 13, and I'm only level 3 now, so I've got plenty of time to tinker.

TyGuy
2021-04-16, 03:04 PM
I just get bored every time I attempt to read the class features, and then give up. I find the class very poorly designed to begin with, but the verbose descriptions add fuel to the fire. Pile on uninspired options and half baked flavors and I'm out. I would find running a campaign with one or more artificer PCs very exhausting, especially with my players.

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-16, 03:34 PM
I just get bored every time I attempt to read the class features, and then give up. I find the class very poorly designed to begin with, but the verbose descriptions add fuel to the fire. Pile on uninspired options and half baked flavors and I'm out. I would find running a campaign with one or more artificer PCs very exhausting, especially with my players.

Hmm...I kind agree. I wonder what a summarized version of it would look like..

Medium Armor + shield
1d8 HD
Thee tools, two skills
Saves : Con, Int

Level 1:
You get a weird, object-targeting Prestidigitation cantrip
You get spellcasting w/ 2 cantrips
Your focus must be your artificer tools or a magic item you made.
You change spells equal to Int + 1/2 level at the start of each day.
You get Ritual Casting

Level 2:
You get 4 recipes for magic items, and can change a recipe each time you level.
You can have up to 2 magic items from your recipes at a time, created at the start of each day.

Level 3:
Subclass stuff
You can now make your own Artisan's Tools out of magic.

Level 4 (8, 12, 16, 19): ASI/Feat

Level 6: tool proficiency doubled, 6 recipes, 3 magic items

Level 7: Can add your Int modifier to an ability check or saving throw to an ally Int times per day.

Level 10:
You can attune to up to 4 items now
Common or Uncommon magic items now take less time and money to craft.
8 recipes, 4 magic items

Level 11:
You can create a wand out of...almost anything, with any of your level 1-2 spells (even if it's not prepared). The wand can be used 2xInt times by anyone, and uses your stats and their concentration.

Level 14:
You can attune to 5 items
You ignore virtually all requirements for attunement.
10 recipes, 5 magic items

Level 18: You can attune to 6 items
12 recipes, 6 magic items

Level 20:
+1 to all saves for each attunement
You can break one of your artificer-made items to heal to 1 HP instead of dropping to 0.


As far as infusions go:
Arcane Armor (Level 14): heals missing limbs, increases speed by 5, comes with a ranged throwing 1d8 attack weapon (AKA Megaman!)

Strength Armor: Comes with 6 charges, each charge can:
Add Int to a Strength Check.
Spend a Reaction to avoid going Prone.

Windy Boots (level 6): Teleports you 15 feet to a place you were before in the same turn.

Upgrade Arcane Focus: +1 to spell attack rolls and ignore half cover (+2 at level 10)

Upgrade Armor: +1 AC (+2 at level 10)

Upgrade Weapon: +1 to attack & damage rolls (+2 at level 10)

Perception Helmet: Advantage on Initiative, and you can't be surprised.

Homunculus: Dodges unless you spend a BA. AC 13, HP scales to your Artificer level, can fly, scales to your proficiency, has Expertise on Perception, can attack for 1d4 or can cast one of your Touch spells.

Concentration Upgrade: 4 charges, save a concentration check you would have failed.

Radiant Weapon: +1 to attack/damage rolls, can shed light. Has 4 charges, which can be spent to blind someone after hitting you.

Crossbow Upgrade: +1 to attack/damage rolls, ignores loading, infinite ammo.

MAKE A MAGIC ITEM OF YOUR CHOICE (there's like 40 to pick from, not to mention any common item in Xanathar's).

Upgrade Shield: +1 to AC, 4 charges that can be spent to knock an enemy back 15 feet when they hit you.

Elemental Armor: Resistance to an elemental damage type

Upgrade Thrown Weapon: +1 to attack/damage rolls, it returns when you throw it.

Spell Slot ring: gain back any spell slot of level 1-3 once a day.




Yeah, okay, that's a bit exhausting. Haven't even started looking through the premade magic items yet.

quindraco
2021-04-16, 03:54 PM
The only exhausting parts for me are when it insists on doing the Tasha's thing of being written as if the writer had no idea how the rules work (iirc every class gets hit with this in Tasha's at least once, and several spells absolutely do).

Some examples:

1: The only absolutely credible reading of Spell Storing Item is that the action you use to produce the spell's effects (note that you neither produce the spell, so cast a spell makes no sense, nor actually use the item for anything - it's an action you can legally take while holding the item that doesn't actually interact with the item in any way - so use item is out, and use magic item is impossible, as ssis aren't magic items) is, RAW, a new, unique action, just like the one granted by the Dragon's Breath spell, so it falls under none of the standard action economy - a Thief can't use an SSI as a bonus action, the SSI's output can't be Counterspelled and can't be combined with an Artillerist's L5 ability, and so on. Why?

2: Artificers can't make scrolls but can make spellwrought tattoos, which seems a curious oversight given the tattoos are literally introduced in the same sourcebook Artificers are. In fact, they're just not banned in general from making consumable magic items, like veteran's canes or pots of awakening.

3: Artificers can take Replicate Magic Item multiple times and no rule was given stopping them picking the same item multiple times. Are they really intended to be able to 1/day take out almost any threat with a pair of bags of holding at level 2, level 3 if they need a steel defender to combine the two without losing anything of real value?

4: Armorers weren't written with an understanding of how armor works. Their L9 ability does half of what it thinks it does, since everyone playing DnD 5E is already combining magic boots and helmets with magic armor. Meanwhile, armor doesn't incorporate an actual number of gauntlets and isn't part of AC. Defender suit Thunder Gauntlets don't work with two weapon fighting at all while held, but also you can take them off and slap people with them, and now they 100% do, since they count as weapons so long as the gauntlets aren't holding anything. Double meanwhile, since, again, gauntlets aren't a game item, there's no way to know how they interact with Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade (which has more to do with how poorly written those spells are now than anything wrong with Armorer, to be fair). What even happens if you infuse Arcane Propulsion Armor into a Defender suit? The whole thing's a hot mess.

5: Artillerist cannons were not written with an understanding of how objects work as opposed to creatures. No sane artillerist will put their cannon on the ground for fear an enemy will literally just walk up and take it - immediately giving the GM a potential headache, as the object has a defined volume and no defined weight.


I don't understand why so much of Tasha's is so.... low-effort. Something like half the book feels like it was never playtested, and it's a major rules source now, not a location book or anything - it has all the weight of Xanathar's. You'd think WotC would put the effort in.

OldTrees1
2021-04-16, 03:58 PM
Huh, so it sounds like Artificer has even more levers than Warlock? A simple trick to reduce complexity is to have a more restrictive theme that you are trying to represent. There are too many Wizard spells, but I have not problem sorting through the spells a Necromancer might have.

stoutstien
2021-04-16, 04:52 PM
I think it is fiddly but not overly so. It's designed for those who don't want just a single tool(s) to address challenges like smite or even full casting. It's not perfect by any means but it has the right fill for taking a a bunch of simple ideas and making them work in ways that are much greater than the value of the whole.

Quietus
2021-04-16, 05:02 PM
I find it no more exhausting than the warlock. Infusions and Invocations are roughly equivalent, aside from the abuses possible with spellwrought tattoo. You've got standard half casting with some cantrips, instead of pact magic. You've got some day to day flexibility in the infusions and spells you have prepared, but aside from that? I have no problem parsing what the artificer does.

Rashagar
2021-04-16, 05:15 PM
I'd probably find it a bit much if I had to make a high level artificer right off the bat, because when I make a high level character I can't help feeling like they need to have a trick or niche that they make the best use of, and I would find it exhausting trying to understand the class enough to find one. But outside of that, if starting low-ish level and just playing to a character concept, it seems fine.

Waazraath
2021-04-17, 08:43 AM
That's one thing I didn't really consider.

I'm so used to planning something like a Sorcerer, where every single choice matters in the long run, but they aren't too difficult to build simply due to the limited number of choices you have when building that character. Taking that level of punishment for a mistake with something like an Artificer would be incredibly exhausting...except your decisions aren't permanent. If it turns out that a magic item build isn't working out, I can just...change it. There's no need for perfection. I don't have to build an entirely perfectly optimized Artificer from level 1 to 20 with very specific choices and then backup plans based on what abilities/roles my party has and may-or-may-not get, and...etc.

I can just **** around between each level, or hell, each day, and everything would be fine.

Thanks, that helped a lot.

Your welcome, and yes, this is a correct assessment: you can mess around between levels and long rests, switch stuff, etc. There are a lot of good options, and the challange is finding the one that best complements the current adventure and your party. (I did some threads some time ago when I build this character - originally I made it based on the last adventure before the current one, making the classing mistake of fighting the last war over instead of preparing for the next. Where the old dungeon had a lot of obstacels and traps, and for example flying was almost a must, in the current one flying is hardly interesting but it has other requirements. Fine, als soon as I saw that, I switched spells and when gaining a level also infusions.)

Pex
2021-04-17, 11:01 AM
The only thing I don't like about it is you know way more Infusions than the number you may have. You give yourself too many options. Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I soon find there are some infusions I eventually hardly ever use. I still want them. They have equal value to me, but that equality is the problem. I don't want to give up what I already have. That is good balance, to have all equal choices. The problem is having to make the choice every game day. That indecision isn't a good feeling. Let me have that hard choice once, on level up, not during game play. I'd rather have 3 infusions available to use and know only 3 infusions than have only 2 infusions available but know 4.

stoutstien
2021-04-17, 11:24 AM
The only thing I don't like about it is you know way more Infusions than the number you may have. You give yourself too many options. Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I soon find there are some infusions I eventually hardly ever use. I still want them. They have equal value to me, but that equality is the problem. I don't want to give up what I already have. That is good balance, to have all equal choices. The problem is having to make the choice every game day. That indecision isn't a good feeling. Let me have that hard choice once, on level up, not during game play. I'd rather have 3 infusions available to use and know only 3 infusions than have only 2 infusions available but know 4.

I on the other end in that I love having some really important decisions to make every day with infusions and later on the SSI factor. When you get it wrong it is annoying but when you get it right it has a real feeling of accomplishment because you make a real choice with real obvious effects. The joys of a proactive style class rather than a retroactive one. It also promotes real creative solutions like using the cap of water breathing as a reverse deep dive helmet to bypass a deadly cloud of toxic gas from a volcano or using an unbreakable arrow to sabotage a ships anchor so it can be raised when you make off with the pirate's cargo. I do wish they had a subclass that focused on infusions as a feature. I want more ways to create havoc without relying on spells. bag of holding bombs or slapping a headband of int on the barbarian so you finally have someone who understands your master play to stop the skeleton horde with box kites and fishing nets arewhat I want more of.


Spell casting has a little bit of this but honestly spell casting in 5e is so generic and broad you have a hard time messing it up.

MoiMagnus
2021-04-17, 11:56 AM
The joys of a proactive style class rather than a retroactive one.

While I cannot talk for Pex, I am personally part of the peoples who usually find proactivity much more exhausting mentally than rewarding. It's not just a question of being annoying when you get it wrong, it the action of having to anticipate in the first place.

I don't think I ever changed my prepared spell outside of when I level up, whatever the edition or class used.

I still end up playing wizard or similar classes, because "high Int" classes are thematically one of my favourite, and as such quite frustrated by Int classes being usually focussed on preparation rather than improvisation.
[Though I'm kind of exaggerating my frustration here, the artificer also have a strong improvisation theme with abilities like "Flash of Genius", so that playstyle is far from absent from D&D]

stoutstien
2021-04-17, 03:39 PM
While I cannot talk for Pex, I am personally part of the peoples who usually find proactivity much more exhausting mentally than rewarding. It's not just a question of being annoying when you get it wrong, it the action of having to anticipate in the first place.

I don't think I ever changed my prepared spell outside of when I level up, whatever the edition or class used.

I still end up playing wizard or similar classes, because "high Int" classes are thematically one of my favourite, and as such quite frustrated by Int classes being usually focussed on preparation rather than improvisation.
[Though I'm kind of exaggerating my frustration here, the artificer also have a strong improvisation theme with abilities like "Flash of Genius", so that playstyle is far from absent from D&D]

I can definitely see where people are coming from with being frustrated with the artificer. It doesn't help that so many other features are unique so you can't fall back on system knowledge either. Funny you mentioned the other intelligence focus classes/subclasses because I was actually pondering over the fact that they don't really have that much of a proactive mindset. Even the wizard is pretty turnkey with their spell preparation and combining it with their subclass features.
The artificer call look downright daunting for players and DMS alike looking to include them in their game. How much of that it can be attributed to being the first new class is something that I can only guess about.

I'm playing one now as I'm taking a break from dming other than two groups and the best I could describe them is the exact opposite of DMing. I know longer have an infinitely deep pool of things that I can just use because I have that control instead I have a fairly weak but broad toolbox that I can use which impact is determined solely on my ability to adapt.

It's funny what we all find relaxing isn't it.

MrStabby
2021-04-17, 04:20 PM
I love the more complex classes with all their knobs and levers and buttons to press. I don't like the artificer because of the fluff to it and some of the specifics of the mechanics (also I lean towards specialist over generalist). That has meant I share some experiences. The class is exhausting to understand.

Firstly are all the lists. Infusions, spells and the option for feats that might be good for casters or for martials. Then your tools matter. And you need them in hand for spellcasting which is just a bit more restrictive than it might be in practice for other spellcasters... so revisit the spell list to see conflicts. Then you have subclass choices - which totally change the way of playing again.

Then you get class features like magic item adept... and who knows what that is worth, it varies so much from game to game.

And spell storing item which just opens up the lists again.



Trying to get a sense of what might be good on a character, what makes sense in play, how it will actually play is a real headache.


That said, once you actually understand how all the moving pieces work they are not so bad in play. It takes a while to get your head round everything but once you do, they are relatively simple.

Kane0
2021-04-17, 04:36 PM
*Taking notes for personal Artificer homebrew tweaks*

Dont mind me.

CMCC
2021-04-17, 05:18 PM
Playing one now with my Force User build. I’m not getting the complexity issues.

Pick spells and infusions that you like or work well.

HPisBS
2021-04-17, 09:17 PM
I really don't see how they'd be any more complex than Warlocks.



Artificers
Warlocks


Subclass
Subclass


Spells (prepared)
Spells (known)


Infusions
Invocations


Tools
Boon




The only relatively confounding part that I can see is trying to balance which Infusions you'd use for yourself personally vs which you'd apply to your allies' gear.

Mercurias
2021-04-17, 10:33 PM
I’ve had friends play them to good effect. They seem pretty balanced overall.

One friend played a Battlemaster with a companion and a mechanical familiar. He was kind of like if a Pally traded burst damage for utility and consistent support.

Another went as an Armorer and specialized super-hard into upgrading their iron man dream armor. It was a pretty effective tank type.

Third friend went Artillerist. The burst damage wasn’t the most amazing at first, but it was consistently GOOD damage, and the player spent a lot of time crafting additional wands and consumable magic items in order to stretch out their limited spell slots. Apparently the dm directly asked them to stop making wands of magic missiles because it was getting hard to balance around (she said she had six of them and liked them for high-AC enemies or enemies resistant to non-magical weapons).

I’d say the important thing is to avoid obsessing overmuch on optimizing your artificer at first and focus on the things that will be fun. Once you get more time playing it with your party, you’ll be able to find the sweet spot.

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-18, 12:56 AM
I really don't see how they'd be any more complex than Warlocks.



Artificers
Warlocks


Subclass
Subclass


Spells (prepared)
Spells (known)


Infusions
Invocations


Tools
Boon




The only relatively confounding part that I can see is trying to balance which Infusions you'd use for yourself personally vs which you'd apply to your allies' gear.

There's also the fact that you can swap them out, and you can change what's spells you know each day.

But simply the fact that infusions can impact multiple things and still function for someone else differently than they do for you, makes them much more difficult than invocations. Outside of Eldritch Blast upgrades, invocations generally don't interact and are self-contained enough that you don't have to think much about synergies or circumstance when getting them (it's not like talking with animals is inherently worse than changing your disguise)

MustaKrakish
2021-04-18, 02:22 AM
In my opinion, the class design is mostly lazy. It feels like spells are the band-aid for everything in 5e. And it leads to the fact that everyone is kinda using the same options but calls it different names. I really think that Artificers and Warlocks should've been spell-less classes. Artificers should have special options, like invocations, instead, they just choose from options that are already in the game, which makes them feel generic and half-baked. Saying that I don't think that they are that complicated. They are just in a very weird spot role-wise I think.

HPisBS
2021-04-18, 02:30 PM
But simply the fact that infusions can impact multiple things and still function for someone else differently than they do for you, makes them much more difficult than invocations.

I mean, in white room theory-crafting, sure.

But in actual play, you should expect the better options to be fairly self-evident.

Got a tank who wants even moar AC? Enhanced Defense on his full plate or shield if he doesn't have an actual +X version yet. And/or Repelling Shield for even better defenses. Maybe keep Resistant Armor in your back pocket as a known-but-not-generally-used Infusion for when you know you'll be up against users of a particular element ahead of time.

Got a melee Rogue? He'll probably appreciate a Radiant Weapon to blind enemies.

Ranged martial? He'll likely appreciate Repeating Shot (until he gets a genuine magic weapon).

Monk who wants to prioritize Wis over Dex, or a Barb who'd like to focus on Unarmored Defense? Gauntlets of Ogre Power could have him covered (at lvl 10).

Some caster in the party often struggles to keep concentration up on his buff / control spells? Mind Sharpener.


You won't have enough slots to cover everything you really want, but you should be able to get a sense for what the party needs the most after playing through a few different situations. And once you reach lvl 10, you can just craft permanent versions for much of it.

kore
2021-04-19, 06:57 PM
I'm loving the Artificer but will agree that it was initially difficult building it in a way that felt cohesive. There was definitely a sense of choice paralysis but I also think that came from the fact that the current adventure of the campaign started at level 11 with the option to continue my original character, which I played from level 5, or start a new character. So I didn't have the benefit of easing my way into all the options that get layered on.

Some of my expectations didn't match reality. For instance, my plan was to run a Repeating Shot Musket at range while my Steel Defender tanked and cast Faerie Fire via SSI. Instead, everyone came to the table with ranged characters, including another artificer who works better mid-range or from the back. For the first dozen or so sessions I found myself being front line (because of my AC) while my SD and I tried to create a bulwark. But the SD's AC isn't that good and it's attack didn't really make it a threat; in hindsight I failed to realize I could have been using it to create advantage through Help. This also meant I wasn't firing my weapon and was just poking away with a bayonet.

When we hit level 12 and had in-game downtime my artificer considered its experience and moved a few things around. Now it carries a shield and a repeating shot hand crossbow with CE and SS feats. The SD has the SSI which has Warding Bond (no concentration, 1 hour duration, 8 times a day) and hangs out in the back line dodging while being a force-field generator and damage sink while I'm in the front line with a riot shield and "pistol" (h. xbow with Repeating Shot) firing off 3 shots a turn.

Other notes:
- Flash of Genius becomes second nature, like Cutting Words with a bard.
- Lots of tools-related features (Magical Tinkers, "Right Tool", Expertise, etc.) so use those for RP and exploration.
- Arcane Jolt is just like a Paladin Smite, when you crit use it. Or heal someone, usually it's me because I'm front line.
- Spells picked are primarily utility and support (cure wounds, revivify, lesser restoration, dispel magic, identify, detect magic, etc.).
- Delaying class features because of multiclass is a huge negative in my opinion.

I've seen a lot of threads about collecting multiple minions (SD, with homunculus servant, etc.) and that is just one big headache in my opinion. While the artificer could run a zoo of mechanical pets I don't think that's where it shines, at least not for a Battle Smith.

Something I have yet to try is generating my own advantage by shoving prone with my Attack and firing two shots (Extra Attack and CE bonus attack) at point blank with SS, I just need to swap an active infusion for my inactive gauntlets of ogre power. Throw in Haste and now I shove prone then fire 3 SS shots with advantage by the second turn.