Breaking the Tasha's Bladesinger

[Rukelnikov]

So Tasha's Bladesinger lets us cast a spell using the Attack action, I'm pretty sure its the only way of doing so, this enables us to cast Eldritch Blast with the Attack action, and I thought there must be some way to break this.

I found a couple things but they are relatively tame:

Anatoly

Bladesinger 6/Horizon Walker 11/Warlock 2

The idea is that we take the Attack action, thus triggering Distant Strike, which allows us to teleport 10 ft before or after each attack, no requirement of weapon attack, since EB makes attack rolls we can teleport before or after each blast, with Repelling Blast this would mean unparalleled ability to reposition enemies and ourselves on the battlefield.

You only need 1 level of warlock tbh, to be able to take repelling Blast, but couldn't find anything meaningful with which to fill the other 2 levels so w/e. (Trickery Cleric would be an option for extra positioning, but its probably better tu use concentration for something else, like Spike Growth or Watery Sphere)

Baki

Simic Hybrid(grappling appendages)

Bladesinger 6

Get EB somehow, now you can turn each EB attack into a grapple attempt since you took the Attack action, so at high levels you can potentially make 5 grapple attempts with your Attack action then go very high and drop em dead or some other grapple shenannigans. Yes a 20th level ftr could do 4 attempts with an action, but we could do 5 and still have 14 levels free in our build.

Other thing I noticed but seems useless

Sun Soul 3/Bladesinger 6

You can turn each Eldritch Blast into a Radiant Sun Bolt (you took the attack action and can replace any of your attacks with them). This would allow us to... make weaker Eldritch Blasts? No really, what were they thinking when you need to go all the way to lvl 17 as a monk, spend a Ki point AND your BA to be able to do the same amount of damage as a Warlock 2/Anything 15 with Agonizing Blast.

I guess the only interesting part is the ability to turn Eldritch Blast attacks into radiant damage attacks, but I didn't find a way to exploit that, since the damage is not coming from the cantrip

Finally, I looked into Soulknife's Psychic Blades, but RAW it seems they can only replace ONE attack with a Psychic Blade attack per attack action, so yes, we could replace an EB attack with a PB attack, but it seems inconsequential. If PB did work with Extra Attack, we could be doing 5 PB attacks with the Bladesingers Attack action, I didn't try to break that cause it doesn't seem to work RAW, but I guess it shouldn't be that difficult, getting 5 attacks per turn with a psychic damage weapon, and having 11 levels leftover, should be breakable even if it doesn't support SS/GWM.

So, what other things can we do with this?

[MaxWilson]

The best exploit I can think of (in theory, because I don't play with Tasha's) is to stack on EK War Magic so you also get a bonus action attack, and Extra Attack 2 as well so you get a fourth attack, for a grand total of four possibly-Sharpshooter attacks and one Eldritch Blast per turn as an Eldritch Knight 11/Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2. If those warlock levels are Hexblade it's even SAD.

The sad thing is that a bog-standard wizard 17 can do almost the same thing just by True Polymorphing a tree into a Gloomweaver and Magic Jarring into that Gloomweaver, to get two extremely high-damage attacks (2 x d8+4d12+4, 69 damage total, about as much damage as three GWM attacks) plus an Eldritch Blast with three beams, plus whatever his Simulacrum does on top of that.

[Rukelnikov]

The best exploit I can think of (in theory, because I don't play with Tasha's) is to stack on EK War Magic so you also get a bonus action attack, and Extra Attack 2 as well so you get a fourth attack, for a grand total of four possibly-Sharpshooter attacks and one Eldritch Blast per turn as an Eldritch Knight 11/Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2. If those warlock levels are Hexblade it's even SAD.

The sad thing is that a bog-standard wizard 17 can do almost the same thing just by True Polymorphing a tree into a Gloomweaver and Magic Jarring into that Gloomweaver, to get two extremely high-damage attacks (2 x d8+4d12+4, 69 damage total, about as much damage as three GWM attacks) plus an Eldritch Blast with three beams, plus whatever his Simulacrum does on top of that.

Yeah, I don't think it can be broken for damage pourposes, since much simpler stuff like a Sorlock upcasting Spirit Shroud will demolish almost everything from a 10 ft range (8 * 1d10+2d8+5, 156 avg adjusted by accuracy), they can even repell with the last hit and move away if they want to.

My thought was doing certain thing impossible otherwise like the multi grappling attempts with many levels free or the self repositioning while casting EB.

The only way I could see it broken for damage would be if the Psychic Blade trick worked, but it doesn't seem to (and even then... I think I'd be hard pressed to surpass the Sorlock)

[Misery Esquire]

Anatoly
...
You only need 1 level of warlock tbh, to be able to take repelling Blast, but couldn't find anything meaningful with which to fill the other 2 levels so w/e.


Fairly hilarious. Grasp of Hadar would also allow you to choose between pulling and pushing them while you teleport around, for maximum choice.

Isn't Eldritch Invocations unlocked at Level 2? ...Unless there's a feat somewhere that grants you one, I admittedly only have the PHB and XGE to hand.



Other thing I noticed but seems useless

Sun Soul 3/Bladesinger 6

You can turn each Eldritch Blast into a Radiant Sun Bolt (you took the attack action and can replace any of your attacks with them). This would allow us to... make weaker Eldritch Blasts? No really, what were they thinking when you need to go all the way to lvl 17 as a monk, spend a Ki point AND your BA to be able to do the same amount of damage as a Warlock 2/Anything 15 with Agonizing Blast.

I guess the only interesting part is the ability to turn Eldritch Blast into radiant damage, but I didn't find a way to exploit that.
So, what other things can we do with this?

Fighter 11/Sun Soul X would allow you to chuck three Sun Bolts per turn... Though I'm not sure what use they would be, since even at Monk 9 (Level 20) they'd only be d6s... Yeah, EB is pretty good in comparison against most anything at being magical ranged attacks.

Hm, Fighter 11/Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2 gives us three attacks to convert, but that's just kind of weird. I guess you could go Eldritch Knight just to confuse the entire build and its spell selection.

[Rukelnikov]

Fairly hilarious. Grasp of Hadar would also allow you to choose between pulling and pushing them while you teleport around, for maximum choice.

Isn't Eldritch Invocations unlocked at Level 2? ...Unless there's a feat somewhere that grants you one, I admittedly only have the PHB and XGE to hand.

Yeah! That was my idea. There is a feat in Tasha's that allows you to take one Invocation, but you need at least 1 level of Warlock if it has any requirements, and Repelling Blast requires EB. Its likely better to just take warlock 2, but tbh its not really a playable build, since your main trick wouldn't come online until level 19 :S


Fighter 11/Sun Soul X would allow you to chuck three Sun Bolts per turn... Though I'm not sure what use they would be, since even at Monk 9 (Level 20) they'd only be d6s... Yeah, EB is pretty good in comparison against most anything at being magical ranged attacks.

Hm, Fighter 11/Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2 gives us three attacks to convert, but that's just kind of weird. I guess you could go Eldritch Knight just to confuse the entire build and its spell selection.

I would rule the interaction between EA(2) and Bladesingers EA that way, but RAW, I'm not sure whether it works that way or not since you cannot gain an ability with the same name twice, Fighters ability is technically named EA(2), so... idk.

[Quietus]

So Tasha's Bladesinger lets us cast a spell using the Attack action, I'm pretty sure its the only way of doing so, this enables us to cast Eldritch Blast with the Attack action, and I thought there must be some way to break this.

I found a couple things but they are relatively tame:

Anatoly

Bladesinger 6/Horizon Walker 11/Warlock 2

The idea is that we take the Attack action, thus triggering Distant Strike, which allows us to teleport 10 ft before or after each attack, no requirement of weapon attack, since EB makes attack rolls we can teleport before or after each blast, with Repelling Blast this would mean unparalleled ability to reposition enemies and ourselves on the battlefield.

You only need 1 level of warlock tbh, to be able to take repelling Blast, but couldn't find anything meaningful with which to fill the other 2 levels so w/e. (Trickery Cleric would be an option for extra positioning, but its probably better tu use concentration for something else, like Spike Growth or Watery Sphere)

Baki

Simic Hybrid(grappling appendages)

Bladesinger 6

Get EB somehow, now you can turn each EB attack into a grapple attempt since you took the Attack action, so at high levels you can potentially make 5 grapple attempts with your Attack action then go very high and drop em dead or some other grapple shenannigans. Yes a 20th level ftr could do 4 attempts with an action, but we could do 5 and still have 14 levels free in our build.

Other thing I noticed but seems useless

Sun Soul 3/Bladesinger 6

You can turn each Eldritch Blast into a Radiant Sun Bolt (you took the attack action and can replace any of your attacks with them). This would allow us to... make weaker Eldritch Blasts? No really, what were they thinking when you need to go all the way to lvl 17 as a monk, spend a Ki point AND your BA to be able to do the same amount of damage as a Warlock 2/Anything 15 with Agonizing Blast.

I guess the only interesting part is the ability to turn Eldritch Blast attacks into radiant damage attacks, but I didn't find a way to exploit that, since the damage is not coming from the cantrip

Finally, I looked into Soulknife's Psychic Blades, but RAW it seems they can only replace ONE attack with a Psychic Blade attack per attack action, so yes, we could replace an EB attack with a PB attack, but it seems inconsequential. If PB did work with Extra Attack, we could be doing 5 PB attacks with the Bladesingers Attack action, I didn't try to break that cause it doesn't seem to work RAW, but I guess it shouldn't be that difficult, getting 5 attacks per turn with a psychic damage weapon, and having 11 levels leftover, should be breakable even if it doesn't support SS/GWM.

So, what other things can we do with this?

The first two technically work, I think - but as we say in AL, "Expect table variance". The Sun Soul thing, however, doesn't allow you to replace attacks with sun bolts, they are an option you can use when using the attack action. I believe the wording will not allow you to replace eldritch blasts with sun bolts.

[Rukelnikov]

The first two technically work, I think - but as we say in AL, "Expect table variance". The Sun Soul thing, however, doesn't allow you to replace attacks with sun bolts, they are an option you can use when using the attack action. I believe the wording will not allow you to replace eldritch blasts with sun bolts.

Of course, no two tables are usually the same, I'm just studying it from a RAW perspective, and not really as builds I intend to play (I usually play fairly non min/maxxed stuff).

About the Sun Bolts, this is the part that led me to believe you could:

"When you gain the Extra Attack feature, this special attack can be used for any of the attacks you make as part of the Attack action."

So I though, if I go Monk 3 first, and then go Bladesinger 6, I will get the EA feature and thus, could be able to change the blasts into bolts. I think it works, its not a good thing to do most of the time though, since you are really just losing damage from every blast.

[MaxWilson]

So I though, if I go Monk 3 first, and then go Bladesinger 6, I will get the EA feature and thus, could be able to change the blasts into bolts. I think it works, its not a good thing to do most of the time though, since you are really just losing damage from every blast.

Gaining more opportunities to stun though, if the DM agrees that this is legal.

[BerzerkerUnit]

This is a white room build I would never encourage someone to play at a table. You can get most of this effect at level 5 with Warlock 3/Sorc 2 or Level 8 with Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2 and the Metamagic Adept feat.
V. Human
Metamagic Adept Subtle Spell/Quicken Spell
Crossbow Master (allowing us to go ranged or melee with surprise attacks)
Sharp Shooter (decent boost if we know target AC is low)

Hexblade Warlock 2/Gloomstalker Ranger 4/Bladesinger 6/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2/Assassin Rogue 4

Required Item: Tome of Charisma +2 or Dark Gift Charisma +4. Only for the Level 17+ nonsense described below.
Key Features:
Hand Crossbow Proficiency
Agonizing Blast
Spells: Hex/Nondetection/Invisibility (at level 7 when you get 3rd level wizard spells) Every other slot probably gets converted to Sorcery Points
Expertise in Stealth

Round 1: Convert a level 1 slot to 1 sorcery points. Let allies cast Bless, and Bardic Inspiration, Cast Invisibility or Disguise Self to move into position.
Round 2: Sneak into position and hide, ending invisibility by casting Hex, but use subtle spell to remain hidden.
Round 3: Hexblade curse and remain hidden.
Round 4: Pop out and declare attack action: This should be surprise since you had nondetection and Invis to get into position.
Step 1. make 6 attacks (Bladesinger 6(2) and Gloomstalker 3(1) for 3, convert 1 attack into Eldritch Blast(4))
If all hit deal 12d6 H. Crossbow and sneak attack+12d6 hex+8d10 (dice and hex dice doubled for assassin)+77 (Cha+Proficiency each hit).
Step 2. Spend 2 Sorcery Points to Quicken Eldritch Blast 8d6+8d10+44.
Step 3. Action Surge- make 6 attacks (Bladesinger 6(2) and Gloomstalker 3(1) for 3, convert 1 attack into Eldritch Blast) If all hit deal 4d6 H. Crossbow+12d6 hex+8d10 (dice and hex dice doubled for assassin)+77 (Cha+Proficiency each hit).

If every attack hits, you'll average 440 damage. Throwing 28d20+11 to hit for each, and rolling 44d6+24d10+154.
You can add 40 with Crossbow master if you want to risk the misses, though if you have bless up it might be worth it.

Halfway through your first surprise round I'm sure the DM will probably tell you not to bother rolling and just declare the bad guy you targeted a Simulacrum.

[Hael]

The best I could come up with was the hexsinger using the pretty standard nuclear wizard template. Eg 1hex,2 fighter,17 wizard (bladesinger) at 20.

Using CBE or PAM and eldritch blast, you can generate 6 attacks per turn with upcast spiritshroud at 4d8 per attack on top of the usual dmg . A simalcrum can add haste (for potentially 4 more attacks via a second EB depending on DM ruling) or simply double the damage. Foresight for permanent advantage.. etc

Regardless, you’re resourceless dpr is something getting close to 200 and will likely make all the martials sad.

[quindraco]

I think there's a lot of potential in mixing Bladesinger with Artificer, due to the staggeringly high AC you can hit on top of everything else, but I'm still tinkering with builds to come up with something worth talking about. Bladesinger/Artillerists and Bladesinger/Battlesmiths can be rendered very good. Alchemist is just a garbage subclass, though, and Armorer usually ends up being Battlesmith but worse every time I try to make something with it, due to its poor design.

[Theodoxus]

Bladesinger's extra attack doesn't turn the cantrip cast into an attack action, it turns one of the attack actions into a 'cast a spell' action.

You can't just willy-nilly swap out EB casts and use them as attack actions.


I think there's a lot of potential in mixing Bladesinger with Artificer, due to the staggeringly high AC you can hit on top of everything else, but I'm still tinkering with builds to come up with something worth talking about. Bladesinger/Artillerists and Bladesinger/Battlesmiths can be rendered very good. Alchemist is just a garbage subclass, though, and Armorer usually ends up being Battlesmith but worse every time I try to make something with it, due to its poor design.

Armorer is just fine with any pure artificer or MC with any wizard other than Bladesinger. The armor synergy just doesn't exist.

There was a post a while back with a Battlesinger 3/17 build to replicate a Force user. Worked really well. My own eventual build will go that route for AL play. A micro-minionmancer with Familiar, Homunculus and Steel Defender all in play.

[Rukelnikov]

Bladesinger's extra attack doesn't turn the cantrip cast into an attack action, it turns one of the attack actions into a 'cast a spell' action.

You can't just willy-nilly swap out EB casts and use them as attack actions.

Well, as a Bladesinger you can take the Attack action, and cast a spell with it, thus fulfilling the requirements for all the features/thingies that require you to take the Attack action in order to use them. For example Grapple, Shove, Radiant Sun Bolt, etc. And if they say you can turn one of your attacks, the Eldritch Blasts count since they are attacks (you are making an attack roll).


This is a white room build I would never encourage someone to play at a table. You can get most of this effect at level 5 with Warlock 3/Sorc 2 or Level 8 with Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2 and the Metamagic Adept feat.
V. Human
Metamagic Adept Subtle Spell/Quicken Spell
Crossbow Master (allowing us to go ranged or melee with surprise attacks)
Sharp Shooter (decent boost if we know target AC is low)

Hexblade Warlock 2/Gloomstalker Ranger 4/Bladesinger 6/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2/Assassin Rogue 4

Required Item: Tome of Charisma +2 or Dark Gift Charisma +4. Only for the Level 17+ nonsense described below.
Key Features:
Hand Crossbow Proficiency
Agonizing Blast
Spells: Hex/Nondetection/Invisibility (at level 7 when you get 3rd level wizard spells) Every other slot probably gets converted to Sorcery Points
Expertise in Stealth

Round 1: Convert a level 1 slot to 1 sorcery points. Let allies cast Bless, and Bardic Inspiration, Cast Invisibility or Disguise Self to move into position.
Round 2: Sneak into position and hide, ending invisibility by casting Hex, but use subtle spell to remain hidden.
Round 3: Hexblade curse and remain hidden.
Round 4: Pop out and declare attack action: This should be surprise since you had nondetection and Invis to get into position.
Step 1. make 6 attacks (Bladesinger 6(2) and Gloomstalker 3(1) for 3, convert 1 attack into Eldritch Blast(4))
If all hit deal 12d6 H. Crossbow and sneak attack+12d6 hex+8d10 (dice and hex dice doubled for assassin)+77 (Cha+Proficiency each hit).
Step 2. Spend 2 Sorcery Points to Quicken Eldritch Blast 8d6+8d10+44.
Step 3. Action Surge- make 6 attacks (Bladesinger 6(2) and Gloomstalker 3(1) for 3, convert 1 attack into Eldritch Blast) If all hit deal 4d6 H. Crossbow+12d6 hex+8d10 (dice and hex dice doubled for assassin)+77 (Cha+Proficiency each hit).

If every attack hits, you'll average 440 damage. Throwing 28d20+11 to hit for each, and rolling 44d6+24d10+154.
You can add 40 with Crossbow master if you want to risk the misses, though if you have bless up it might be worth it.

Halfway through your first surprise round I'm sure the DM will probably tell you not to bother rolling and just declare the bad guy you targeted a Simulacrum.

I like it, though I'm pretty sure a lot of people will say you won't be able to do that due to surprise mechanics and whatnot.

[Quietus]

Bladesinger's extra attack doesn't turn the cantrip cast into an attack action, it turns one of the attack actions into a 'cast a spell' action.

You can't just willy-nilly swap out EB casts and use them as attack actions.

I know it's silly, but a bladesinger does not use the cast a spell action. It is, in fact, the attack action, that happens to be generating a cantrip. Which means that features that trigger from the attack action go off, but features that trigger from the cast a spell action do not... except that most features don't call out the Cast A Spell action, they call out "when you cast a spell". Which has happened here, though it's done in a nonstandard way. Definitely makes for fun white room theorycraft nonsense.

[Theodoxus]

I'm sure there's DMs that agree with you, just given the fact that there's nothing stopping munchkins from running games too.

However, the ability specifically says "...you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks." Casting is a specific action that isn't an attack. In fact, it's laid out in the core rules as "Cast a spell". You can't use this specific wording to then say "well, I'm gonna swap an attack for a cantrip, but the cantrip I'm using makes attack rolls, so I'm going to swap those rolls out for non-attacks."

But I guess it does fulfill the thread title, because it literally does break the bladesinger into doing something that in no way is supported by RAW. See my first sentence.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm sure there's DMs that agree with you, just given the fact that there's nothing stopping munchkins from running games too.

However, the ability specifically says "...you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks." Casting is a specific action that isn't an attack. In fact, it's laid out in the core rules as "Cast a spell". You can't use this specific wording to then say "well, I'm gonna swap an attack for a cantrip, but the cantrip I'm using makes attack rolls, so I'm going to swap those rolls out for non-attacks."

But I guess it does fulfill the thread title, because it literally does break the bladesinger into doing something that in no way is supported by RAW. See my first sentence.

But the thing is that your action has been spent on taking the Attack action, yes, you are casting a spell, but you ALSO have taken the Attack action (since Bladesinger's Extra Attack doesn't grant an extra action, and they only have one), and thus fulfill said requirement.

[Greywander]

But the thing is that your action has been spent on taking the Attack action, yes, you are casting a spell, but you ALSO have taken the Attack action (since Bladesinger's Extra Attack doesn't grant an extra action, and they only have one), and thus fulfill said requirement.
I think what's being argued here is that your attacks for EB don't count as Attack action attacks, and thus cannot be replaced with grapples or sun bolts or psychic blades or whatever. The Bladesinger basically replaces one of their attacks with a self-contained cantrip casting. You've still taken the Attack action for the purposes of stuff like Shield Master, and you can replace any Extra Attacks with grapples or sun bolts or whatever, just not the ones from the cantrip.

[Rukelnikov]

I think what's being argued here is that your attacks for EB don't count as Attack action attacks, and thus cannot be replaced with grapples or sun bolts or psychic blades or whatever. The Bladesinger basically replaces one of their attacks with a self-contained cantrip casting. You've still taken the Attack action for the purposes of stuff like Shield Master, and you can replace any Extra Attacks with grapples or sun bolts or whatever, just not the ones from the cantrip.

Thats clearly the intent, but not what the RAW rules require. If they say "Whenever you take the Attack action you can turn one of your attacks into X", you are fulfilling the requirement and are still within your action, and can thus benefit from said features/rules.

I think I said it in the OP, but I reiterate, this is more of an excerise than anything else, its not something intended to see play.

[Theodoxus]

Ok, for us in the back, can you state the RAW you think supports this supposition? Because your OP makes the claim with no backup, and the replies likewise go along with your claim like you're all in on some inside joke - and I'm not seeing it, and you keep claiming it's RAW, but that isn't moving the discussion forward...

[Rukelnikov]

Ok, for us in the back, can you state the RAW you think supports this supposition? Because your OP makes the claim with no backup, and the replies likewise go along with your claim like you're all in on some inside joke - and I'm not seeing it, and you keep claiming it's RAW, but that isn't moving the discussion forward...

Its simple

During your turn, you get an action, from those listed in PHB combat section as the actions you can take.

When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise. Many monsters have action options of their own in their stat blocks.
When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the roles, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.
We are gonna take the Attack action.

The most common action to take in combat is the Attackaction, whether you are swinging a sword, Iiring an arrow fram a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.
Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the Iighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.
This action references the "Making an Attack" section, the part we care for the most is this:

"If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."

Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon aI range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.


Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, ar a location.
Determine modifiers. The DMdetermines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage ar disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.

If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack rol1,you're making an attack.
Now, this is something every creature can do.

Since we are a Bladesinger 6, and we have taken the Attack action, we are allowed to cast a cantrip with it.

Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Finally, lets read the rules for grapple

When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Atlack action, this atlack replaces one of them.
We have taken the Attack action, and since per the "Making an Attack" section each blast from EB is an attack, we are capable of making multiple attacks, and thus we can replace an attack (in this case one of our blasts) with a grappling attempt.

The part that lends itself to shennaningans in the Bladesinger is that it can cast a spell WHILE having taken the Attack action, which is a somewhat common requirement for a lot of things. Its for that same reason you can turn your EB attacks into Radiant Sun Bolts since it says "this special attack can be used for any of the attacks you make as part of the Attack action"

Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can hurl searing bolts of magical radiance.

You gain a new attack option that you can use with the Attack action. This special attack is a ranged spell attack with a range of 30 feet. You are proficient with it, and you add your Dexterity modifier to its attack and damage rolls. Its damage is radiant, and its damage die is a d4. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.

When you take the Attack action on your turn and use this special attack as part of it, you can spend 1 ki point to make the special attack twice as a bonus action.

When you gain the Extra Attack feature, this special attack can be used for any of the attacks you make as part of the Attack action.
And the Horizon Walker's Distant Strike has similar wording, as do a couple features more that allow you to turn attacks into something else whenever you take the Attack action.

[Unoriginal]

My interpretation:

The Bladesinger feature lets you replace one (and only one) of the attacks from the Attack action with the casting of a spell. The basic rules let you replace one of the attacks you get from the Attack action with a grapple/shove attempt.

Ergo, using the Bladesinger feature to replace one of the attacks from the Attack action with the casting of a spell means you have *less* attacks you can replace with a grapple.


Also, general rule of thumb: trying to exact-words one's way into more power and "break" X, Y or Z is not really constructive.

[Rukelnikov]

My interpretation:

The Bladesinger feature lets you replace one (and only one) of the attacks from the Attack action with the casting of a spell. The basic rules let you replace one of the attacks you get from the Attack action with a grapple/shove attempt.

Ergo, using the Bladesinger feature to replace one of the attacks from the Attack action with the casting of a spell means you have *less* attacks you can replace with a grapple.


Also, general rule of thumb: trying to exact-words one's way into more power and "break" X, Y or Z is not really constructive.

But, what's your basis for that? The Spell gives you 4 attacks, if you make an attack roll you are making an attack.

The argument could be made that only one attack can be replaced by a grapple, but it would be source agnostic. It has been clarified though, that if you have multiple attacks like from EA you can make multiple grapple attempts.

[BerzerkerUnit]

But, what's your basis for that? The Spell gives you 4 attacks, if you make an attack roll you are making an attack.

The argument could be made that only one attack can be replaced by a grapple, but it would be source agnostic. It has been clarified though, that if you have multiple attacks like from EA you can make multiple grapple attempts.

The duration of EBlast is instant, therefore, the duration of the grapples created by the blast would be instant. Even assuming you're replacing the beams with grabs with hands, you're limited by anatomy and common sense.

[Quietus]

My interpretation:

The Bladesinger feature lets you replace one (and only one) of the attacks from the Attack action with the casting of a spell. The basic rules let you replace one of the attacks you get from the Attack action with a grapple/shove attempt.

Ergo, using the Bladesinger feature to replace one of the attacks from the Attack action with the casting of a spell means you have *less* attacks you can replace with a grapple.


Also, general rule of thumb: trying to exact-words one's way into more power and "break" X, Y or Z is not really constructive.

I think this will be a common ruling from DMs, because we've gone fully into the realm of silly RAW here. However, the correct reading of the RAW is that you can, in fact, replace Eldritch Blast beams with attack-alternates, as long as it is cast via the medium of Bladesinger's Extra Attack.

Of course if any player shows up to my table with something like this, they will get a quite firm "Please no" from me, if they're doing anything terribly egregious. I'd probably be okay with Bladesinger 6/Horizon Walker 11, for instance, as sure, you're a tier 4 character using a non-modified cantrip to teleport ten feet five times. That's a neat trick and was real expensive and MAD to obtain.

[quindraco]

Hmmmmm.

Yortle the Tortle
Bladesinger 20
Starting statline: INT 17, STR 16, CON 14, WIS 10, DEX 8, CHA 8
ASIs/Feats: Magic Initiate (Warlock: Eldritch Blast, Hex, pick something), Skill Expert (+1 Int, Athletics Expertise), +2 INT, +2 STR, +2 STR (INT 20/STR 20 when done modifying)
--If you have access to gauntlets of ogre strength, get the grappler feat.
AC: 17, 22 while bladesinging
Equipment: spears, whip (for reach shoves) (note: I don't know how your GMs roll, but every 5E GM I've ever had has overridden the RAW reach rules. RAW, a weapon only adds to your reach during an attack with that weapon, so you don't have reach when determining e.g. if you can make an AoO - RAW, AoOs are always based only on your native reach. If you're using the override that weapons add to reach at all times, you can also shove a grappled target away to 10 feet, and they'll remain grappled - you may be able to sell your GM on having this work by letting you switch to the grapple occupying your whip, not your free hand. You can technically also just grapple at 10 feet out, but since we're in house rule territory anyway, the same GM will probably ban this, as the grapple rules explicitly mention your hand. YMMV.)

Basic Premise:

You want Hex up as soon as possible, but since we're not assuming a party member is around with Hex, you'll need to apply it yourself. Target Strength with the debuff part of it - you're after being better at opposed Strength checks way more than the damage part. If you can get Enhance Ability (Strength) on yourself going into the fight, do so. Enlarge/Reduce is also tremendously helpful, and depending on your GM, Haste.

Run up to the enemy and do this (you have 5 attacks available, one of which can be a spear stab or whip lash):

Grapple
Shove (Prone)
Option: Grapple+Prone second enemy (costs two attacks)
Option: Depending on your GM, shove one grappled/prone target away to be 10 feet from you; target is still within reach, so the target remains grappled.
Option: If you have the grappler feat and ranged attackers in your party, you may want to grapple-restrain.


Pretty entertaining.

[Unoriginal]

But, what's your basis for that? The Spell gives you 4 attacks

Precisely. The spell gives you those attacks.

As the "Casting a Spell" section in the combat rules clearly state, casting a spell does not necessarily require an action. The Bladesinger's Extra Attacks allows you to replace one of your Attack action attacks with the casting of a cantrip, it does not mean the resulting attacks are part of the Attack action.


Also, no, one grappling per Attack isn't source agnostic: the Grappling section of the combat rules quite clearly states "if you are able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, [the grappling special attack] replaces one of them."

It's one of the most ignored rules in the game.

But more importantly, the basis for this is that RAW doesn't matter/doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned, everyone interpretes each rule as they read it is , not how the rule is written, and that layer of interpretation always impact how you play the game. Therefore it is my interpretation that you can't Eldritch Grapple.

[Theodoxus]

Its simple

"If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."

Based on just this, can't you argue for the same attack roll / attack shenanigans with just EB? What does the extra attack have to do with it?

If it doesn't work for just EB, it doesn't work for EA. If it works for EA, it works for just EB - and yet, I've never once heard any reasoning for letting you split off an EB attack for a shove or grapple...


As the "Casting a Spell" section in the combat rules clearly state, casting a spell does not necessarily require an action. The Bladesinger's Extra Attacks allows you to replace one of your Attack action attacks with the casting of a cantrip, it does not mean the resulting attacks are part of the Attack action.

One interesting aspect of this is casting Guidance and then using your other extra attack to make an Athletics (Str) check to grapple a fool. 6 levels of BS is a bit niche to add onto a grappler build, but, really, it only takes a level of Rogue to grab expertise to make it sizzle... and grabbing Guidance somewhere... (Probably MI).

[Unoriginal]

One interesting aspect of this is casting Guidance and then using your other extra attack to make an Athletics (Str) check to grapple a fool. 6 levels of BS is a bit niche to add onto a grappler build, but, really, it only takes a level of Rogue to grab expertise to make it sizzle... and grabbing Guidance somewhere... (Probably MI).

"While you were wasting your time, I studied the blade. And magic. And trickery. And dabbled in a different kind of magic. And now, I will show you the result of my training."

*Try to wrestle one enemy.*


I think we found what Nale would be if The Order of the Stick was a 5e webcomic.

[Theodoxus]

I think we found what Nale would be if The Order of the Stick was a 5e webcomic.

Bravo!

It does feel a bit Nale-ish. And then Thog shows off by easily grappling two fools by the throat and lifting them off their feet.

[bid]

As the "Casting a Spell" section in the combat rules clearly state, casting a spell does not necessarily require an action.
Such as mending (10 minutes) or reincarnation (1 hour). You could add reaction and BA spells to that list.
I don't think this extends to BS Attack action spell.

I believe everything in combat has to fit in a valid box. When you insert in your BS Attack action the 4 attack rolls of the EB, it doesn't eat your BA or your reaction. Can't be movement. That leaves them to either be part of the Attack action, or be an "other activity on your turn".

I'm curious how this fits into your image of RAW. Is your take that there is a limbo outside those choices or is it similar to a flourish?


BTW, I'm somewhat ambivalent on the whole thing. I love allowing spell + 2 attacks for a fighter 11 / BS 6, it's neat. But I hate the idea of turning an EB into 4 grapple rolls.

[JNAProductions]

Such as mending (10 minutes) or reincarnation (1 hour). You could add reaction and BA spells to that list.
I don't think this extends to BS Attack action spell.

I believe everything in combat has to fit in a valid box. When you insert in your BS Attack action the 4 attack rolls of the EB, it doesn't eat your BA or your reaction. Can't be movement. That leaves them to either be part of the Attack action, or be an "other activity on your turn".

I'm curious how this fits into your image of RAW. Is your take that there is a limbo outside those choices or is it similar to a flourish?


BTW, I'm somewhat ambivalent on the whole thing. I love allowing spell + 2 attacks for a fighter 11 / BS 6, it's neat. But I hate the idea of turning an EB into 4 grapple rolls.

It's a spell. It does what it says it does, not more.

[DarknessEternal]

Run up to the enemy and do this (you have 5 attacks available, one of which can be a spear stab or whip lash):

Grapple
Shove (Prone)
Option: Grapple+Prone second enemy (costs two attacks)
Option: Depending on your GM, shove one grappled/prone target away to be 10 feet from you; target is still within reach, so the target remains grappled.
Option: If you have the grappler feat and ranged attackers in your party, you may want to grapple-restrain.



Are you really taking the stance that you can use every attack of Eldritch Blast to not actually attack with Eldritch Blast at all? Did you really cast a spell if you never use the spell?

[Theodoxus]

I love allowing spell + 2 attacks for a fighter 11 / BS 6, it's neat. But I hate the idea of turning an EB into 4 grapple rolls.

Wut? EA specifically states they don't stack. I might, maybe, allow you to pick which EA you're using on a turn by turn basis - either 3 attacks as a Fighter or 2 attacks as a Bladesinger, but no way is there any way can you justify squishing the BS's cantrip attack into the Fighters 3 attacks.

This thread has jumped the shark.

[Rukelnikov]

Based on just this, can't you argue for the same attack roll / attack shenanigans with just EB? What does the extra attack have to do with it?

If it doesn't work for just EB, it doesn't work for EA. If it works for EA, it works for just EB - and yet, I've never once heard any reasoning for letting you split off an EB attack for a shove or grapple...
It doesn't work with a "standard" EB because you are taking the Cast a Spell action, and Grappling says you need to use the Attack action.

[Unoriginal]

It doesn't work with a "standard" EB because you are taking the Cast a Spell action, and Grappling says you need to use the Attack action.

There is no "cast a spell" action, though. Casting a spell is an option in combat, and some of them take an action to do so, but there is no Cast a Spell action the way there is an Attack action.

[Rukelnikov]

There is no "cast a spell" action, though. Casting a spell is an option in combat, and some of them take an action to do so, but there is no Cast a Spell action the way there is an Attack action.

What? Its literally the second action described, right after the Attack action, PHB pg 192

[Valmark]

I don't think EB would work with the grapple rules (it would with the DS though).

A grappling attempt replaces one of the attacks that the Attack action gives you just like casting a cantrip does, so if you substitute a cantrip to an attack I wouldn't consider those usable. Imo, of course.

Would probably allow it though since it's awfully niche- how often would you even need five grappling attempts (or grapple+shove, whatever). Especially since for Bladesingers basically everything is more important then Strenght.

Another potential exploit (that depends on the DM's reading) is Haste on yourself to turn the one attack from the Attack action into a second cantrip.
Depends on the DM's reading because some say that 'one weapon attack only' means you can't use a cantrip to substitute it if you're a Bladesinger.

[quindraco]

I don't think EB would work with the grapple rules (it would with the DS though).

A grappling attempt replaces one of the attacks that the Attack action gives you just like casting a cantrip does, so if you substitute a cantrip to an attack I wouldn't consider those usable. Imo, of course.

Would probably allow it though since it's awfully niche- how often would you even need five grappling attempts (or grapple+shove, whatever). Especially since for Bladesingers basically everything is more important then Strenght.

Another potential exploit (that depends on the DM's reading) is Haste on yourself to turn the one attack from the Attack action into a second cantrip.
Depends on the DM's reading because some say that 'one weapon attack only' means you can't use a cantrip to substitute it if you're a Bladesinger.

What gets me is when people claim Haste won't allow Bladesinger cantrips but will allow grapples. That's very strained. Either Haste's mandate of weapon attack is binding because specific beats general, or it isn't. Grapples aren't weapon attacks.

[Unoriginal]

What? Its literally the second action described, right after the Attack action, PHB pg 192


Each spell has a Casting Time, which specifies whether the caster must use an action, a Reaction, minutes, or even hours to cast the spell. Casting a Spell is, therefore, not necessarily an action. Most Spells do have a Casting Time of 1 action, so a Spellcaster often uses his or her action in combat to cast such a spell.

"Cast a Spell" is not inherently an action. Casting a specific spell can be an action if the casting time is 1 action.

If you prefer, by RAW it is not "I use the Cast a Spell action to cast Eldritch Blast", it's "I use the Cast Eldritch Blast action".

[Rukelnikov]

"Cast a Spell" is not inherently an action. Casting a specific spell can be an action if the casting time is 1 action.

If you prefer, by RAW it is not "I use the Cast a Spell action to cast Eldritch Blast", it's "I use the Cast Eldritch Blast action".

Ok, the point is that they are not using the Attack action, and thus, don't meet the requirements for Grappling for instance.

[Unoriginal]

Ok, the point is that they are not using the Attack action, and thus, don't meet the requirements for Grappling for instance.

Indeed. So do we agree that casting Eldritch Blast is not part of the Attack action?

[Rukelnikov]

Indeed. So do we agree that casting Eldritch Blast is not part of the Attack action?

Normally no, in the case of the Bladesinger it is done in the same action.

[Valmark]

What gets me is when people claim Haste won't allow Bladesinger cantrips but will allow grapples. That's very strained. Either Haste's mandate of weapon attack is binding because specific beats general, or it isn't. Grapples aren't weapon attacks.

Yeah, I didn't come upon that argument but if I had I would've called BS (and it doesn't mean Bladesinger). It's fine if one simply finds something too strong and doesn't want to allow it but if you're putting a rule it needs to be consistent.


Indeed. So do we agree that casting Eldritch Blast is not part of the Attack action?


Normally no, in the case of the Bladesinger it is done in the same action.

Casting Eldritch Blast is undoubtly part of the Attack action if used with the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, or at least I don't see another reading.

Homewever I'd like to point out that both the EA cantrip and the Grapple replace the attacks you make- seems to me that the attacks from the Eldritch Blast aren't the attacks given by the Attack action, and wouldn't get substituted (it'd be the same for, say, Firebolt. The point is that you're already replacing the Attack's attack with something else).

[Quietus]

What gets me is when people claim Haste won't allow Bladesinger cantrips but will allow grapples. That's very strained. Either Haste's mandate of weapon attack is binding because specific beats general, or it isn't. Grapples aren't weapon attacks.

Yeah, that's fairly disingenuous. Either the attack can be replaced, or it can't. As a DM, my rule of thumb on things like this really comes down to, "how abusive is this?" - if someone is trying to use bladesinger + haste to get two eldritch blasts and replacing all of those attack rolls with something else as this thread is describing? I will ask them to stop. But if someone came to me and wanted to, as an example, use a Bladesinger/Sun Soul monk to do multiple sun blasts? That's not actually going to break anything, and it makes sun soul actually viable. Most likely, as long as that fits into the optimization level of the team, I'll allow it.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, that's fairly disingenuous. Either the attack can be replaced, or it can't. As a DM, my rule of thumb on things like this really comes down to, "how abusive is this?" - if someone is trying to use bladesinger + haste to get two eldritch blasts and replacing all of those attack rolls with something else as this thread is describing? I will ask them to stop. But if someone came to me and wanted to, as an example, use a Bladesinger/Sun Soul monk to do multiple sun blasts? That's not actually going to break anything, and it makes sun soul actually viable. Most likely, as long as that fits into the optimization level of the team, I'll allow it.

Which would actually be a reason to allow a Grapple from Haste and not a cantrip.

Attack and 2X Eldritch Blast, with a Warlock dip, is (at, say, level 11), doing the following:

6d10+24 (Eldritch Blast, 18 Charisma)

This assumes you spent one ASI bumping Charisma, and one on Intelligence. And it averages to 57 damage, compared to a Fighter's 36. The Fighter is slightly more accurate (20 Strength instead of 18 Charisma) but they'd have to have an increase of more than 50% to match the BladesingerLock. And the caster can do this seven encounters per day, before Arcane Recovery. With Arcane Recovery, you're looking at being able to do it four encounters per day off their third level slots alone.

Whereas a Grapple attempt... Not such a big deal.

[Quietus]

Which would actually be a reason to allow a Grapple from Haste and not a cantrip.

Attack and 2X Eldritch Blast, with a Warlock dip, is (at, say, level 11), doing the following:

6d10+24 (Eldritch Blast, 18 Charisma)

This assumes you spent one ASI bumping Charisma, and one on Intelligence. And it averages to 57 damage, compared to a Fighter's 36. The Fighter is slightly more accurate (20 Strength instead of 18 Charisma) but they'd have to have an increase of more than 50% to match the BladesingerLock. And the caster can do this seven encounters per day, before Arcane Recovery. With Arcane Recovery, you're looking at being able to do it four encounters per day off their third level slots alone.

Whereas a Grapple attempt... Not such a big deal.

And as I said, it has to pass the "How abusive is this?" test. The above only passes that test is a super high optimization game where simulacrum abuse and sorcadins are the norm.

I'd also note, everyone is hung up on grapple, but this doesn't allow you to maintain a grapple at range. Unless you have some feature that allows you to maintain the grapple, it breaks the moment someone isn't adjacent to you. And if they're adjacent, you're either taking disadvantage on the rest of your EB's, or you've paid a feat tax to enable all of this.

[Witty Username]

I think BladeS is good enough without trying to get eldritch blast oddness (and I question its effectiveness as that means you are investing in Cha for a two level dip in warlock). But you could replace an eldritch blast attack with a grapple I think but you would need it to be within 5ft and make an athletics check. So if you were planning on ever using EB for damage, you would need at least 16 cha, along with 16 str and proficiency in athletics, and 16+ in int(because you are primarily a wizard still).

But 5 grapple checks says timmy?:smalleek: In all honesty BladeS is probably better using a booming blade or playing a ranger with expertise in athletics.

Also, the attack action is not the same thing as attacks. BladeS works with some things by making attacks part of an attack action, but Opportunity and bonus action attacks aren't attack actions and neither are spells normally.