Sorcerer spell choices end up making a list that's too generic?

[Rashagar]

I realise this is almost certainly more a problem with my brain than with anything else, but in saying that;

When picking spells, does anyone else worry that their choices are resulting in a very generic feeling list of spells known, but if you try diversifying/deviating from the generic list you don't have comparably useful alternatives to take instead?

Eg. Fireball, Fly, Misty Step/Dimension Door

Even if you're not specialising in AoE damage dealing, it's good/expected to have it as an option, and Fireball just seems the best all round option to take if you only have room for 1 pick. It's far ahead of an upcast Shatter, I'd only really consider Erupting Earth if I had Empower Spell which I'm unlikely to if not specialising in damage dealing, and Vitriolic Sphere ties you to 4th level slots which seem a good bit more precious than 3rd level.

For Fly, if you don't see the ability to fly as part of your character concept, but you have the clear option to take it, how do you reconcile the choice of leaving it out for concept reasons with the fact that at some point you'll probably kick yourself for that decision? (Even if it's at level 11+) Same with the ability to teleport. I can't really think of any other spell choice options that would provide a comparable level of utility to replace those choices with, but at the same time they don't feel like they fit with the character idea.

So yeah, should I just resign myself to a generically useful list, or risk being useless?

[GeneralVryth]

I highly doubt you will be the first or last person to feel this way. Sorcerer's as a class are badly designed and this is one aspect of it with a lack of free bloodline spells.

[Mastikator]

That's inevitable, you get a limited number of spells, you can only swap out one per level you better optimize for spells that are versatile enough to be used in as many contexts as possible and powerful enough to be worth keeping. The sorcerer encourages not a generic list but a brutal efficiency in spell choices IMO. Picking a spell that you never use is a bit painful for a sorcerer.

[Selion]

I realise this is almost certainly more a problem with my brain than with anything else, but in saying that;

When picking spells, does anyone else worry that their choices are resulting in a very generic feeling list of spells known, but if you try diversifying/deviating from the generic list you don't have comparably useful alternatives to take instead?

Eg. Fireball, Fly, Misty Step/Dimension Door

Even if you're not specialising in AoE damage dealing, it's good/expected to have it as an option, and Fireball just seems the best all round option to take if you only have room for 1 pick. It's far ahead of an upcast Shatter, I'd only really consider Erupting Earth if I had Empower Spell which I'm unlikely to if not specialising in damage dealing, and Vitriolic Sphere ties you to 4th level slots which seem a good bit more precious than 3rd level.

For Fly, if you don't see the ability to fly as part of your character concept, but you have the clear option to take it, how do you reconcile the choice of leaving it out for concept reasons with the fact that at some point you'll probably kick yourself for that decision? (Even if it's at level 11+) Same with the ability to teleport. I can't really think of any other spell choice options that would provide a comparable level of utility to replace those choices with, but at the same time they don't feel like they fit with the character idea.

So yeah, should I just resign myself to a generically useful list, or risk being useless?

I think wizards are just slightly in a better spot, you could theoretically fill your spellbook with every single spell available, but in actual games it's your DM who decides what spells you'll find and you still feel restrained in your choices.
For example, i'm selecting my 3rd level spells for my war wizard:
-Haste is mandatory for my character concept
-Fireball is mandatory for reasons you have already explained, it falls off at higher levels, but clearing minions is expected from an arcanist.
-How do you even skip counterspell?
-just one room left, which i must fill with either tiny hut or fly, which i consider both essential.

BTW, this is true in particular with 3rd level spells, higher levels are less engulfed with mandatory spells and give more room to characterization.

EDIT: memorization, which at least it's not a issue to sorcerers, makes things even worse: number of memorized spells is level +int, at higher levels you want to fill your slots with high level spells, so, are you really giving 4 slots to haste, fly, fireball and counterspell?

[Salmon343]

That's the problem with having so few spells known, and no mechanics that encourage having a themed selection. A possible solution is, you could ask if your DM would allow you to have subclass bonus spells, like the Tasha Sorcerer subclasses. It doesn't need to be as openly swappable as those - could always make a curated list together that creates the character that you want, and that you both agree isn't too crazy.

But sadly you are right, there are staples that you want to grab if you can - counterspell, dispel magic, fly, haste - especially with the ability to perform metamagic, and not grabbing those is a big nerf for a sorcerer, which goes counter to the whole origin thing they've got going.

[MrStabby]

I realise this is almost certainly more a problem with my brain than with anything else, but in saying that;

When picking spells, does anyone else worry that their choices are resulting in a very generic feeling list of spells known, but if you try diversifying/deviating from the generic list you don't have comparably useful alternatives to take instead?

Eg. Fireball, Fly, Misty Step/Dimension Door

Even if you're not specialising in AoE damage dealing, it's good/expected to have it as an option, and Fireball just seems the best all round option to take if you only have room for 1 pick. It's far ahead of an upcast Shatter, I'd only really consider Erupting Earth if I had Empower Spell which I'm unlikely to if not specialising in damage dealing, and Vitriolic Sphere ties you to 4th level slots which seem a good bit more precious than 3rd level.

For Fly, if you don't see the ability to fly as part of your character concept, but you have the clear option to take it, how do you reconcile the choice of leaving it out for concept reasons with the fact that at some point you'll probably kick yourself for that decision? (Even if it's at level 11+) Same with the ability to teleport. I can't really think of any other spell choice options that would provide a comparable level of utility to replace those choices with, but at the same time they don't feel like they fit with the character idea.

So yeah, should I just resign myself to a generically useful list, or risk being useless?

Yeah, it's a common problem

5th edition has relatively good balance in many ways. We do snipe around the edges but it is so much better than say... 3rd edition.

What 5th edition does do badly is balance spells. For any given class and given spell level there will be clear good spells and bad spells. There will be your shield and your witch bolt, your wish and your wierd.

To be fair there are some in the middle as well - it is not unreasonable to consider it a hard choice between fear and hypnotic pattern, but generally the spells are poorly enough balanced that the effective "good" spell list is pretty narrow... at least for any kind of combat spell.

Choosing between non combat options is sometimes tougher - nystul's aura vs non-detection vs fabricate and so on will be a lot more campaign specific.

I think recent trends exacerbate this a little. Now sorcerers no longer have to chose between the best spells, they just can take a near identical list that covers all of them with a few subclass specials thrown in.

[Houster]

That's true to optimizers, which many here are, including me.

The real way to avoid this, is to just pick whatever you would like that's not utter dirt.
Dnd is not white theory room and every problem in a real game might have a niche solution, that a niche spell might solve. Spells like levitate, spider climb, mind spike, Earthbind, Detect thoughts and so on are wonderful and have the potential to make you very very useful. It's true they will not fit a ton of situations like misty step, but they are underrated. Two of these alone might be a lot of fun.

Sample 6th level sorc:
Shield
Disguise self
Detect thoughts
Levitate
Misty step
Counterspell
Fireball

Lots of staple ones, and a few underrated spells.

A character with only fireball haste misty step and shield might often find themselves useless.

The second option is to center around your metamagic choices. Twin? take single target buffs. Quickened? Spells that can be reactivated using an action. Subtle? social spells like suggestion, invisibility, detect thoughts and so on.

Sample 6th level shadow sorc, subtle spell, creepy themed:

Shield
Chaos bolt
Detect thoughts
Invisibilty
Darkness(subclass bonus)
Suggestion
Counterspell
Hypnotic pattern

No blasts like fireball but full combat usefulness with hypnotic pattern, chaos bolt and the rest too, just not in a straight way .

Non staples in darkness, detect thoughts, and chaos bolt. Rest are staples.
But this has subtle- can't me counterspelled, can influence any non wise npc's or get by them, even with eyes on him.


Important staples usually are found in 3rd level like someone already said.
Great underrated utility+ spells that can define your character are found usually in 2nd level.

2nd level for arcane casters offer the hardest choices by far for me. So many good spells.

[Chaos Jackal]

I think wizards are just slightly in a better spot, you could theoretically fill your spellbook with every single spell available, but in actual games it's your DM who decides what spells you'll find and you still feel restrained in your choices.
For example, i'm selecting my 3rd level spells for my war wizard:
-Haste is mandatory for my character concept
-Fireball is mandatory for reasons you have already explained, it falls off at higher levels, but clearing minions is expected from an arcanist.
-How do you even skip counterspell?
-just one room left, which i must fill with either tiny hut or fly, which i consider both essential.

BTW, this is true in particular with 3rd level spells, higher levels are less engulfed with mandatory spells and give more room to characterization.

EDIT: memorization, which at least it's not a issue to sorcerers, makes things even worse: number of memorized spells is level +int, at higher levels you want to fill your slots with high level spells, so, are you really giving 4 slots to haste, fly, fireball and counterspell?

If you feel the wizard, who by levelling alone ends up knowing three times as many spells as a sorcerer and can memorize between 1.5 and 2 times as many spells as a sorcerer can learn, is restraining in spell selection, then we're gonna need a new word for the kind of restraining a sorcerer goes through.

Yes, non-TCE sorcerers can very easily end up feeling generic in spell choices. Learning only fifteen spells over their entire career means that, if optimizing, you'll often end up choosing between a number of staples with little variation, since you can't afford to pick niche options. To make matters worse, sorcerers generally aren't encouraged to pick particular spells from their subclasses, because half of the non-TCE subclasses don't have synergy with particular spells, and the remaining ones only see (limited) synergy with damage types, and frankly, how many blasts with the same damage type are you ever gonna know if you're optimizing?

Divine Soul is an exception here. They can still feel samey, after all they only get an expanded list, not expanded spells known (well, they get one), but at least the expanded list means you can see spell selections that no other sorcerer can emulate.

Essentially, since outside of TCE they have no additional spell list and their subclasses don't really give them incentive to focus on particular spells, it's not hard for someone making numerous sorcerer characters to end up having a significant number of the same spells.

[MrStabby]

If you feel the wizard, who by levelling alone ends up knowing three times as many spells as a sorcerer and can memorize between 1.5 and 2 times as many spells as a sorcerer can learn, is restraining in spell selection, then we're gonna need a new word for the kind of restraining a sorcerer goes through.

Yes, non-TCE sorcerers can very easily end up feeling generic in spell choices. Learning only fifteen spells over their entire career means that, if optimizing, you'll often end up choosing between a number of staples with little variation, since you can't afford to pick niche options. To make matters worse, sorcerers generally aren't encouraged to pick particular spells from their subclasses, because half of the non-TCE subclasses don't have synergy with particular spells, and the remaining ones only see (limited) synergy with damage types, and frankly, how many blasts with the same damage type are ever gonna know if you're optimizing?

Divine Soul is an exception here. They can still feel samey, after all they only get an expanded list, not expanded spells known (well, they get one), but at least the expanded list means you can see spell selections that no other sorcerer can emulate.

Essentially, since outside of TCE they have no additional spell list and their subclasses don't really give them incentive to focus on particular spells, it's not hard for someone making numerous sorcerer characters to end up having a significant number of the same spells.

The TCE sorcerers feel just as generic, they just feel like generic wizards rather than generic sorcerers.

Sorcerers dont need more spells known, they need cool sorcerer specific spells.

[Chronic]

The sooner you realize that sorcerers (and even wizard) aren't supposed to do everything by themselves, the sooner you'll be free to try things. Most of the situations can be solved in a multitude of way. You cannot fly? Let someone else do it. They cannot fly? Well guess what the campaign won't end because of it. Haste? It's a nice buff, but if you don't have it, you will find something else to do.

[Chaos Jackal]

The TCE sorcerers feel just as generic, they just feel like generic wizards rather than generic sorcerers.

Sorcerers dont need more spells known, they need cool sorcerer specific spells.

Simply by knowing more spells you can afford to pick certain niche choices that you normally wouldn't have felt were worth selecting. Two sorcerers with 15 total spells built by the same person might end up having at least half their spells in common, possibly more. Two sorcerers with 25 total spells will probably have a smaller percentage, which still makes them largely the same, sure, but not just as generic.

Of course, the difference isn't that big, which is why spells known alone aren't enough, as you said. But more spells known are still needed, and they're still of some help on the matter.

"Cool sorcerer-specific spells" won't do much after all if there's no room to learn them. Is a Divine Soul, who has access to dozens of spells no other sorcerer can learn, so much different in spell selection from a Shadow, compared to how different a Shadow and a Wild Magic one are? Maybe so, but not by much, unless you really want to lean into the clerical aspect.

Like extra spells known, getting unique spells doesn't do it alone. You need both.

[fbelanger]

Devs produce weird class concept for arcane caster,
On one side they emphasis specialist through school of magic, blood line, pact magic, but ultimately the game is design for a versatile caster using different aspect of magic, utility, defense, offense, area.

Don’t be shy to use different style for your spell the game need just push you that way.

[Amnestic]

To me a satisfying sorcerer is one that embodies their bloodline. More than perhaps any other class, they should be defined by their subclass. As it stands there's just not enough interaction between subclass and gameplay (spellcasting) to really make it work. Except maybe a constantly surging wild magic sorc - but surges are decided by the DM as written, so that falls down too.

Feels like they need a rewrite to me. Maybe of just subclasses. Maybe of the full class. Maybe a lot of sorc and/or bloodline specific spells (as in, only sorcerers of that bloodline can cast that spell). Maybe all of the above.

[MrStabby]

Simply by knowing more spells you can afford to pick certain niche choices that you normally wouldn't have felt were worth selecting. Two sorcerers with 15 total spells built by the same person might end up having 10-12 spells in common. Two sorcerers with 25 total spells might have 15 in common, which still makes them largely the same, sure, but not just as generic.

Of course, the difference isn't that big, which is why spells known alone aren't enough, as you said. But more spells known are still needed, and they're still of some help on the matter.

"Cool sorcerer-specific spells" won't do much after all if there's no room to learn them. Is a Divine Soul, who has access to dozens of spells no other sorcerer can learn, so much different in spell selection from a Shadow, compared to how different a Shadow and a Wild Magic one are? Maybe so, but not by much, unless you really want to lean into the clerical aspect.

Like extra spells known, getting unique spells doesn't do it alone. You need both.

I think there is a risk of using the spells known metric rather than the spells used to differentiate characters.

It doesnt really matter that much what fraction of your spells you know you might share with another caster, what matters more (in my opinion) is the fraction of spells you actually cast that could be cast by a different character and vice versa.

Niche spells do not differentiate characters in the way that spells that are actually cast frequently do.

[sophontteks]

I realise this is almost certainly more a problem with my brain than with anything else, but in saying that;

When picking spells, does anyone else worry that their choices are resulting in a very generic feeling list of spells known, but if you try diversifying/deviating from the generic list you don't have comparably useful alternatives to take instead?

Eg. Fireball, Fly, Misty Step/Dimension Door

Even if you're not specialising in AoE damage dealing, it's good/expected to have it as an option, and Fireball just seems the best all round option to take if you only have room for 1 pick. It's far ahead of an upcast Shatter, I'd only really consider Erupting Earth if I had Empower Spell which I'm unlikely to if not specialising in damage dealing, and Vitriolic Sphere ties you to 4th level slots which seem a good bit more precious than 3rd level.

For Fly, if you don't see the ability to fly as part of your character concept, but you have the clear option to take it, how do you reconcile the choice of leaving it out for concept reasons with the fact that at some point you'll probably kick yourself for that decision? (Even if it's at level 11+) Same with the ability to teleport. I can't really think of any other spell choice options that would provide a comparable level of utility to replace those choices with, but at the same time they don't feel like they fit with the character idea.

So yeah, should I just resign myself to a generically useful list, or risk being useless?
These are not the must-have spells. The real must-have spells are shield, and counterspell. Probably dispel magic too.

Fireball is overtuned. Anyone going for AOE damage takes fireball. This is how it is for just about everyone that can access it. For 4th level AOE shadow sorcerers take sickening radiance for their hounds into exhaustion combo.

Fly is nice, but hardly a must-have. Twinned sorcerers especially have a harder time justifying it. They are better off with twinned enlarge, haste, greater invisibility, or polymorph. Shadow sorcerers can't justify fly over their improved darkness.

Sorcerer's tend to pick similar spells that work with their metamagic choices, because many spells are overtuned. But the spell selection changes depending on their metamagic and subclasses.

[Selion]

If you feel the wizard, who by levelling alone ends up knowing three times as many spells as a sorcerer and can memorize between 1.5 and 2 times as many spells as a sorcerer can learn, is restraining in spell selection, then we're gonna need a new word for the kind of restraining a sorcerer goes through.

Yes, non-TCE sorcerers can very easily end up feeling generic in spell choices. Learning only fifteen spells over their entire career means that, if optimizing, you'll often end up choosing between a number of staples with little variation, since you can't afford to pick niche options. To make matters worse, sorcerers generally aren't encouraged to pick particular spells from their subclasses, because half of the non-TCE subclasses don't have synergy with particular spells, and the remaining ones only see (limited) synergy with damage types, and frankly, how many blasts with the same damage type are you ever gonna know if you're optimizing?

Divine Soul is an exception here. They can still feel samey, after all they only get an expanded list, not expanded spells known (well, they get one), but at least the expanded list means you can see spell selections that no other sorcerer can emulate.

Essentially, since outside of TCE they have no additional spell list and their subclasses don't really give them incentive to focus on particular spells, it's not hard for someone making numerous sorcerer characters to end up having a significant number of the same spells.

Yes, you're right, when you put it this way sorcerers sound really restrained in their selection, i was thinking about tier 1-2, in which the difference is not that severe and it's compensated by memorization, but at tier 3-4 it's huge, for example even with a single 9th level slot, having two-three 9th level spell at disposal is a big difference.

Btw, as it has been said by Chronic, no one should do everything in a party, playing a spellcaster usually put you in the false idea that everything uncommon is on your shoulders, it's not actually true. The enemy is flying? Let your comrade come up with a solution, be it find cover, lure the foes in restrained space, using range options. The enemy is invisible? maybe... flour? Your DM likes scry and die? Well... you should really call a wizard/sorc in that case :P
This is especially valid in the sorcerer's case, thematically they're the charismatic imbued with magic mysterious entity, they're not problem solvers.

[Unoriginal]

If you make a list of spells that are considered "the best" for a generic, context-less hypothetical adventure, then you'll end up with a generic, context-less list that is "the best" only in an hypothetical situation.

To the point the claim was made on this subforum that you could succeed every encounter in the game if you selected 5 specific spells (never mind that said claim is incredibly easy to debunk).


Point is, the difference in power between "the best spell" and "other spell that gets picked less often" is generally far less major than the impression you'd get reading online guides/optimisation threads. There are of course outliers at both ends of the power scale.

Now it's true that most Sorcerers have less choices than most other casters, leading to more similar spell selections, but I don't think it's as dire as presented. Metamagic adds versatility, too.

[Chaos Jackal]

I think there is a risk of using the spells known metric rather than the spells used to differentiate characters.

It doesnt really matter that much what fraction of your spells you know you might share with another caster, what matters more (in my opinion) is the fraction of spells you actually cast that could be cast by a different character and vice versa.

Niche spells do not differentiate characters in the way that spells that are actually cast frequently do.

Yes, but with so few spells known, it doesn't change the fact that a lot of your spells are gonna be the same as those of other sorcerers. You could make an entirely new list of spells unique to sorcerers, and sorcerers would still be generic because, being unable to branch out into whatever niches their new spell list gave them, they'd end up picking largely the same general use spells with a few outliers as a cherry on top. You'd still build nearly every sorcerer in a largely similar way, half your spells likely shared between all your builds. Sure, no other caster might have access to them, but still, odds are that every other sorcerer, including every other sorcerer you might've made instead, would still end up with the same spell selection.

Unless all spells available are niche, or all spells available are general use and of similar power, the number of spells known is gonna play a part in differentiating characters. There are better options and worse options, wider options and narrower options, and if you're limited in number of spells known you'll naturally gravitate towards the same few spells as all other characters of the same class, because there's not enough room for you to branch out into specific niches and utilities without losing out on the general use spells that cover multiple scenarios and situations.

[Waazraath]

I realise this is almost certainly more a problem with my brain than with anything else, but in saying that;

When picking spells, does anyone else worry that their choices are resulting in a very generic feeling list of spells known, but if you try diversifying/deviating from the generic list you don't have comparably useful alternatives to take instead?

Eg. Fireball, Fly, Misty Step/Dimension Door

Even if you're not specialising in AoE damage dealing, it's good/expected to have it as an option, and Fireball just seems the best all round option to take if you only have room for 1 pick. It's far ahead of an upcast Shatter, I'd only really consider Erupting Earth if I had Empower Spell which I'm unlikely to if not specialising in damage dealing, and Vitriolic Sphere ties you to 4th level slots which seem a good bit more precious than 3rd level.

For Fly, if you don't see the ability to fly as part of your character concept, but you have the clear option to take it, how do you reconcile the choice of leaving it out for concept reasons with the fact that at some point you'll probably kick yourself for that decision? (Even if it's at level 11+) Same with the ability to teleport. I can't really think of any other spell choice options that would provide a comparable level of utility to replace those choices with, but at the same time they don't feel like they fit with the character idea.

So yeah, should I just resign myself to a generically useful list, or risk being useless?

Yes and no. Yes, it is a bit of an issue in 5e. No, it does not have to be, but it takes effort. For inspiration, see some specialist caster builds (lots of sorcerers) that stick to a theme while keeping options open for other stuff: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611092-Specialist-casters-%96-build-challenge

[sophontteks]

Yes, but with so few spells known, it doesn't change the fact that a lot of your spells are gonna be the same as those of other sorcerers. You could make an entirely new list of spells unique to sorcerers, and sorcerers would still be generic because, being unable to branch out into whatever niches their new spell list gave them, they'd end up picking largely the same general use spells with a few outliers as a cherry on top. You'd still build nearly every sorcerer in a largely similar way, 10-12 spells likely shared between all your builds. Sure, no other caster might have access to them, but still, odds are that every other sorcerer, including every other sorcerer you might've made instead, would still end up with the same spell selection.

Unless all spells available are niche, or all spells available are general use and of similar power, the number of spells known is gonna play a part in differentiating characters. There are better options and worse options, wider options and narrower options, and if you're limited in number of spells known you'll naturally gravitate towards the same few spells as all other characters of the same class, because there's not enough room for you to branch out into specific niches and utilities without losing out on the general use spells that cover multiple scenarios and situations.
But this is dismissing the fact that wizards also primarily use core spells. Sure they have more nitch spells while the other modifies core spells with metamagic, but the core spells are the core spells. Obviously if you are looking for more spells, pick a wizard, but the list isn't changing. We're basically just pointing out the obvious fact that sorcerers have less spells then wizards.

And sorcerers pick their spells based on metamagic. You can not say all sorcerers pick the same core spells. They don't. A twinned sorcerer will be taking spells similar to other twinned sorcerers. Subtle sorcerers all pick similar spells. Each meta-magic basically has it's own list of optimal spells.

[Chaos Jackal]

But this is dismissing the fact that wizards also primarily use core spells. Sure they have more nitch spells while the other modifies core spells with metamagic, but the core spells are the core spells. Obviously if you are looking for more spells, pick a wizard, but the list isn't changing. We're basically just pointing out the obvious fact that sorcerers have less spells then wizards.
I'm not dismissing that fact; the problem obviously exists with other spellcasters too. But we're discussing the sorcerer here. I'm not even making direct comparisons; the lists aren't the same, a wizard's list is way bigger, by far the biggest in the game and with numerous strong and unique spells (which in part helps alleviate the feeling of sameness between two wizards and very much alleviates the feeling of sameness between the wizard and any other caster). I'm also not disagreeing with what MrStabby is saying. I'm not pointing out the obvious fact that sorcerers have less spells than wizards, I'm pointing out that sorcerers have very few spells, period, and that limit is also something that contributes a lot to them feeling generic and samey.

Think of it like this. Let's say you have ten spells that are likely to be used every day. You'll probably cast, say, seven or eight of those spells any given day. Now, you also have a number of spells that see usage much more rarely, each with its specific, narrow set of niches. Each of these spells might end up being used once every five days, or once a week, or even once every ten days. But if you have three or five of those spells only, you won't even be casting at least one of them every day or two. If you have ten of them? You might just be able to use a couple of them every day. Different couple each time, but they add some spice to your day-to-day routine at least.

You might have different criteria, but I see the character that has ten of the niche spells as less generic. It's still a generic character to an extent, and there are still other issues that have to be addressed (like what MrStabby said), but the spells the character can know are an issue as well.


And sorcerers pick their spells based on metamagic. You can not say all sorcerers pick the same core spells. They don't. A twinned sorcerer will be taking spells similar to other twinned sorcerers. Subtle sorcerers all pick similar spells. Each meta-magic basically has it's own list of optimal spells.
Quite often it's the other way around; you end up picking your metamagic options based on your spells. Also, there are many metamagic options which are either not worth their cost and thus very rarely picked, or that don't really alter your spell selection.

Picking Empowered won't really increase the number of blasts you learn, because a so-called "blaster" doesn't actually need a lot of blast spells; you might add an extra one, but odds are you'll still be working around the same single target and aoe blasts you'd have picked without Empowered. Picking polymorph isn't because of Twinned, it's a general use spell with many applications and a lot of power; twinning it is on top of that. Picking fly and a teleportation spell isn't because of having or not having some metamagic options, it's because you (and your party, in the case of fly or dimension door) are gonna need the mobility and the flight, because such things become very important as the game progresses, both in and out of combat. Picking counterspell isn't because Subtle Spell makes it impossible for someone to counter you in turn, it's because counterspell is an indispensable tool for any game expected to feature spellcasters. Picking Quickened is both common and strong, yet has little to no impact on your spell selection.

In the end, metamagic does affect your spell selection, but it ends up affecting the latter half/third of your picks. A lot of your choices are still just as likely to stay the same throughout your builds. That's without mentioning that there are very few metamagic options overall, limited further by how weak or niche things like Distant are and how strong things like Quickened and Subtle are, meaning that there will often be significant overlap of metamagic choices and consequently the spells picked for their sake.

So yes, metamagic influences your spell selection, but nowhere near enough. At least that's how I see it; I'm not gonna claim everyone builds sorcerers with the same mindset. But at least for me, every time I build a sorcerer (and I've built a few), the first thing that comes to mind are the necessary bases I have to cover (shield, counterspell, an aoe debuff, a buff/steroid, teleportation, flight, an aoe blast, possibly a summon, maybe invisibility) and by the time I'm done with that I've already filled half the spells my sorcerer knows with the same ones my previous three used.

[JonBeowulf]

From the thread on Does the Sorcerer Have a Reason to Exist? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626192-Does-the-Sorcerer-Have-a-Reason-to-Exist&highlight=sorcerer)...

I completely redesigned the Sorcerer in my world to make them not just a different flavor of Wizard.


Spells became abilities that could be used the appropriate times a day based on spell slots for that level.
Players chose a source or type of magic at level 1 (Fire Sorcerer, Transmuter Sorcerer, etc.).
Abilities (spells) were limited to only things that applied to the level 1 choice (fire spells, transmutation spells, etc.). This obviously made some choices better than others, but it allowed for some interesting NPCs.
Expanded the available abilities (spells) by adding from other lists or re-skinning current ones.
Dropped all verbal and material components so abilities look like abilities (no more "I am infused with innate magic... watch me cast a spell exactly as Wizards do!").
Metamagic remained as-is.

We had concerns about it being too restrictive, but the players ended up really enjoying the freedom to do magic like Carrie or Pinhead or Elsa or Dobby or whoever. It also made Wizards seem more like Wizards, so double win!
Sorcerers are now far from generic, no longer look like wizards, and are very customizable to fit desired concepts. They're more fiddly during creation and I put a ton of work into reskinning spells, but my table is happy with the results.

Sure, even low-level Evoker and Elemental sorcerers are powerful in combat and the Divination sorcerer is pretty useless as a PC, but the flavor of the class was vastly improved (in our opinion).

[Mercurias]

When I play a sorcerer, I usually just try to pick spells that I think would have really cool synergy with my metamagic.

I have an idea for an extremely fun-looking Divine Soul Sorc with a Bard dip. The entire point of his setup is to use Subtle Spell with spells like Suggestion to go buck wild in social settings, then use Twin Spell in Combat to buff my team. The entire concept is for him to be a Shadow Elf with a powerful Fey Bloodline, so the whole “Glamour” thing works for him pretty well even if he isn’t chucking fireballs.

A Draconic Sorc would be the type who uses metamagic to violently amplify its offensive spells. You could absolutely wreck stuff and play as a self-contained, aggressive caster rather that focuses on heightened control and elemental damage.

A Paladin/Clockwork Soul Sorc would do well to focus on abjuration spells while using Quick Cast to let them Smite and Buff on a single turn. Or even get use out of Blade Ward.

[sophontteks]

I'm not dismissing that fact; the problem obviously exists with other spellcasters too. But we're discussing the sorcerer here. I'm not even making direct comparisons; the lists aren't the same, a wizard's list is way bigger, by far the biggest in the game and with numerous strong and unique spells (which in part helps alleviate the feeling of sameness between two wizards and very much alleviates the feeling of sameness between the wizard and any other caster). I'm also not disagreeing with what MrStabby is saying. I'm not pointing out the obvious fact that sorcerers have less spells than wizards, I'm pointing out that sorcerers have very few spells, period, and that limit is also something that contributes a lot to them feeling generic and samey.

Ok, it will be hard to talk about a sorcerer's limited spells without comparing it to a wizard's larger selection. I disagree that this in any way alleviates the "sameness" either. Wizards tend to know a lot of spells, which makes them all pretty generic. What is distinguishing one wizard from the other here?

Sorcerers have a lot of power in their subclasses. Each plays very differently. Each changes their spell selection. Same with metamagic decisions. All sorcerers do not have the same spell list. It's really the opposite. With access to so many spells, nothing really distinguishes wizards from one another.



Think of it like this. Let's say you have ten spells that are likely to be used every day. You'll probably cast, say, seven or eight of those spells any given day. Now, you also have a number of spells that see usage much more rarely, each with its specific, narrow set of niches. Each of these spells might end up being used once every five days, or once a week, or even once every ten days. But if you have three or five of those spells only, you won't even be casting at least one of them every day or two. If you have ten of them? You might just be able to use a couple of them every day. Different couple each time, but they add some spice to your day-to-day routine at least.


This is a direct comparison between a sorcerer and a wizard. Can you see why it's fair for me to just make the comparison bluntly? No need to beat around the bush. Wizards have more spells. Sorcerers do not. We are comparing the two directly.



You might have different criteria, but I see the character that has ten of the niche spells as less generic. It's still a generic character to an extent, and there are still other issues that have to be addressed (like what MrStabby said), but the spells the character can know are an issue as well.

If everyone has the same spells, its just as generic. Having more isn't distinguishing one character from another. Furthermore, spells along aren't the only thing distinguishing characters at all. The subclasses alone distinguish sorcerers more then wizards.



Quite often it's the other way around; you end up picking your metamagic options based on your spells. Also, there are many metamagic options which are either not worth their cost and thus very rarely picked, or that don't really alter your spell selection.

No. It is never the other way around. It's literally impossible. You get your 2 metamagics at level 3 and from then on you pick spells based on those choices. Your metamagic choices define your sorcerers role. Some metamagics aren't very good. Just don't pick those. Below are some ways the metamagics define your spell selections and role. They completely distinguish one sorcerer from another.

Subtle for a social role with PF, illusions, charms, suggestion.
Empowered and transmuted for DPS with damage spells
Twinned for support role with enlarge, greater invisibility, polymorph, and haste.
Quicken for action utility and works great with crown of madness and sunbeam
Empowered for CC (better used with hounds as a shadow sorcerer) with hold person and sickening radience.

You can see where sorcerers are very distinguished from one another just in their metamagic choices alone. My shadow sorcerer uses subtle and empowered along with the free heighten with hounds. His spell selection is a mix of social, damage, and CC spells. Phantasmal force, scorching ray, hold person, blindness/deafness, and sickening radiance are must-have spells for this subclass and metamagic combo. They aren't even good spells for other metamagic combos, so they aren't generic choices at all.



Picking Empowered won't really increase the number of blasts you learn, because a so-called "blaster" doesn't actually need a lot of blast spells; you might add an extra one, but odds are you'll still be working around the same single target and aoe blasts you'd have picked without Empowered. Picking polymorph isn't because of Twinned, it's a general use spell with many applications and a lot of power; twinning it is on top of that. Picking fly and a teleportation spell isn't because of having or not having some metamagic options, it's because you (and your party, in the case of fly or dimension door) are gonna need the mobility and the flight, because such things become very important as the game progresses, both in and out of combat. Picking counterspell isn't because Subtle Spell makes it impossible for someone to counter you in turn, it's because counterspell is an indispensable tool for any game expected to feature spellcasters. Picking Quickened is both common and strong, yet has little to no impact on your spell selection.

Sorcerers don't have the known spells to even do this. I'm taking fireball because I have empowered. I'm taking polymorph because I have twinned. I do not have the excess known spells to make so many choices outside my metamagic choices. I'm not a wizard. I'd be better off picking more spells I specialize in.



In the end, metamagic does affect your spell selection, but it ends up affecting the latter half/third of your picks. A lot of your choices are still just as likely to stay the same throughout your builds. That's without mentioning that there are very few metamagic options overall, limited further by how weak or niche things like Distant are and how strong things like Quickened and Subtle are, meaning that there will often be significant overlap of metamagic choices and consequently the spells picked for their sake.

So yes, metamagic influences your spell selection, but nowhere near enough. At least that's how I see it; I'm not gonna claim everyone builds sorcerers with the same mindset. But at least for me, every time I build a sorcerer (and I've built a few), the first thing that comes to mind are the necessary bases I have to cover (shield, counterspell, an aoe debuff, a buff/steroid, teleportation, flight, an aoe blast, possibly a summon, maybe invisibility) and by the time I'm done with that I've already filled half the spells my sorcerer knows with the same ones my previous three used.
I think you are making an inferior sorcerer by defaulting to a selection of spells you deem as necessary without sufficiently weighing in on how your metamagics should impact the most optimal selection. Sorcerers literally can not pick the full list you provided. I think you are trying to be a wizard, and it doesn't work. The only must-have spells in this list is counterspell and shield (and even then my shadow sorcerer uses mage armor in combination with darkness. I forgo shield).

I'll break down my own sorcerer's spell list for you. He's a halfling shadow sorcerer. I opted for tashas mind whip over blindness/deafness. It's a great spell to combine with hounds and sickening radiance later. Red shows spells I removed. I underlined new spells at that level.

Cantrips- Firebolt, Shape Water, Mold Earth, Mind Sliver
1- Mage Armor, Sleep
2- Sleep Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, Catapult
3. Catapult, Mage Armor, Absorb elements, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray
4. Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray, Tashas mind whip
5. Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray, Hold Person, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Fireball

The remaining I'm a little wishy washy on, we'll wee how things go when I'm there. Enemies abound is a must-have subtle spell IMO. So good to use against someone outside combat. Sickening radience is too good with hounds to pass up. Polymorph is a strong option, but I may want hold person too.

6. Enemies abound (possibly hold person)
7. Sickening Radiance

I definitely believe my sorcerer is quite distinguished from other sorcerers and these generic lists you are describing.

[Chaos Jackal]

Ok, it will be hard to talk about a sorcerer's limited spells without comparing it to a wizard's larger selection.
The comparison to wizards is easy to make, yes, but again, I'm not making that comparison. The sorcerer has the fewest spells known of any full caster, closer to the number a ranger gets than a warlock, while having a bigger list than the warlock. You can make any comparison, and it's gonna be bad. A sorcerer has very few spells known, period.


I disagree that this in any way alleviates the "sameness" either. Wizards tend to know a lot of spells, which makes them all pretty generic. What is distinguishing one wizard from the other here?

Sorcerers have a lot of power in their subclasses. Each plays very differently. Each changes their spell selection. Same with metamagic decisions. All sorcerers do not have the same spell list. It's really the opposite. With access to so many spells, nothing really distinguishes wizards from one another.
Wizards do have differences in gameplay actually. An evoker, an illusionist, a necromancer and a diviner all play differently. But that's a different topic.
Again, I never denied that feeling generic is a possibility with every spellcaster, wizards included; I'm specifically addressing the sorcerer here, and how the spells known add to existing reasons.


This is a direct comparison between a sorcerer and a wizard. Can you see why it's fair for me to just make the comparison bluntly? No need to beat around the bush. Wizards have more spells. Sorcerers do not. We are comparing the two directly.
See above.


If everyone has the same spells, its just as generic. Having more isn't distinguishing one character from another. Furthermore, spells along aren't the only thing distinguishing characters at all.
I never said it's the only thing. I said it's one of the things.


No. It is never the other way around. It's literally impossible. You get your 2 metamagics at level 3 and from then on you pick spells based on those choices. Your metamagic choices define your sorcerers role. Some metamagics aren't very good. Just don't pick those. Below are some ways the metamagics define your spell selections and role. They completely distinguish one sorcerer from another.

Subtle for a social role with PF, illusions, charms, suggestion.
Empowered and transmuted for DPS with damage spells
Twinned for support role with enlarge, greater invisibility, polymorph, and haste.
Quicken for action utility and works great with crown of madness and sunbeam
Empowered for CC (better used with hounds as a shadow sorcerer) with hold person and sickening radience.

You can see where sorcerers are very distinguished from one another just in their metamagic choices alone. My shadow sorcerer uses subtle and empowered along with the free heighten with hounds. His spell selection is a mix of social, damage, and CC spells. Phantasmal force, scorching ray, hold person, blindness/deafness, and sickening radiance are must-have spells for this subclass and metamagic combo. They aren't even good spells for other metamagic combos, so they aren't generic choices at all.
I suppose you mean Heightened.
It can happen actually, especially with the lv10 metamagic. You might be seeing too many enemy counterspellers, or expect to be seeing too many counterspellers, so you take Subtle because you have counterspell yourself, among other things. Or there's more close combat than you expected, so you take Careful because you've already taken a couple mass cc spells. Possibilities exist.
And no, most of the spells are actually generic. Phantasmal force is a very powerful single target debuff for its level, scorching ray is probably the most common single target blast and many people just add it, hold person is a similar deal for single target debuffs. Even sickening radiance isn't exactly rare, though that's because of its combinations with environmental effects.
Also, in most of those cases, you'll actually pick up only one, maybe two, of the available options. Or you might pick more, but then you're liable to end up with redundant spells that do variations of the same thing, and at the expense of your mobility, defense, utility etc.


Sorcerers don't have the known spells to even do this. I'm taking fireball because I have empowered. I'm taking polymorph because I have twinned. I do not have the excess known spells to make so many choices outside my metamagic choices. I'm not a wizard. I'd be better off picking more spells I specialize in.
They do. And especially if there's no wizard in the party, they'll get them. Or well, I will. Again, your mileage may vary here. That's my mindset with the sorcerer, as I've already said, not everyone's. I'm playing a full caster, I believe I need to be able to cover a number of bases.


I'll break down my own sorcerer's spell list for you. He's a halfling shadow sorcerer. I opted for tashas mind whip over blindness/deafness. It's a great spell to combine with hounds and sickening radiance later. Red shows spells I removed. I underlined new spells at that level.

Cantrips- Firebolt, Shape Water, Mold Earth, Mind Sliver
1- Mage Armor, Sleep
2- Sleep Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, Catapult
3. Catapult, Mage Armor, Absorb elements, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray
4. Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray, Tashas mind whip
5. Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray, Hold Person, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Fireball

The remaining I'm a little wishy washy on, we'll wee how things go when I'm there. Enemies abound is a must-have subtle spell IMO. So good to use against someone outside combat. Sickening radience is too good with hounds to pass up. Polymorph is a strong option, but I may want hold person too.

6. Enemies abound (possibly hold person)
7. Sickening Radiance

I definitely believe my sorcerer is quite distinguished from other sorcerers and these generic lists you are describing.
Sleep (later replaced), absorb elements, mage armor, phantasmal force, fireball and counterspell are spells that are in all my sorcerers (bar one each in the case of mage armor and fireball). So is polymorph, for that matter. Add to that shield, hypnotic pattern/fear (I very much prefer it over enemies abound), misty step and polymorph, and you've got a typical list I run. Hold person and scorching ray are also very common picks for many people, like I said, but I believe hold person is a weak spell and I generally avoid single target blasting, which is why they aren't in my list. In many others' though, they most certainly are.

So no, your sorcerer isn't particularly distinguished. Nearly three-quarters of what you mentioned is common. Could be a coincidence though. Anyway, I digress. I'm not here to tell you how to build your sorcerer. And thematic sorcerers are certainly possible, but I don't find them as strong, especially if I don't have a wizard in the party.

I believe that sorcerers suffer from having to stick to specific spells, making them often feel generic, and their limited spells known contribute to that feeling by not allowing them to branch out further. You obviously think otherwise, and we view this quite differently, so I don't think we'll be agreeing here.

[Selion]

The comparison to wizards is easy to make, yes, but again, I'm not making that comparison. The sorcerer has the fewest spells known of any full caster, closer to the number a ranger gets than a warlock, while having a bigger list than the warlock. You can make any comparison, and it's gonna be bad. A sorcerer has very few spells known, period.


Wizards do have differences in gameplay actually. An evoker, an illusionist, a necromancer and a diviner all play differently. But that's a different topic.
Again, I never denied that feeling generic is a possibility with every spellcaster, wizards included; I'm specifically addressing the sorcerer here, and how the spells known add to existing reasons.


See above.


I never said it's the only thing. I said it's one of the things.


I suppose you mean Heightened.
It can happen actually, especially with the lv10 metamagic. You might be seeing too many enemy counterspellers, or expect to be seeing too many counterspellers, so you take Subtle because you have counterspell yourself, among other things. Or there's more close combat than you expected, so you take Careful because you've already taken a couple mass cc spells. Possibilities exist.
And no, most of the spells are actually generic. Phantasmal force is a very powerful single target debuff for its level, scorching ray is probably the most common single target blast and many people just add it, hold person is a similar deal for single target debuffs. Even sickening radiance isn't exactly rare, though that's because of its combinations with environmental effects.
Also, in most of those cases, you'll actually pick up only one, maybe two, of the available options. Or you might pick more, but then you're liable to end up with redundant spells that do variations of the same thing, and at the expense of your mobility, defense, utility etc.


They do. And especially if there's no wizard in the party, they'll get them. Or well, I will. Again, your mileage may vary here. That's my mindset with the sorcerer, as I've already said, not everyone's. I'm playing a full caster, I believe I need to be able to cover a number of bases.


Sleep (later replaced), absorb elements, mage armor, phantasmal force, fireball and counterspell are spells that are in all my sorcerers (bar one each in the case of mage armor and fireball). So is polymorph, for that matter. Add to that shield, hypnotic pattern/fear (I very much prefer it over enemies abound), misty step and polymorph, and you've got a typical list I run. Hold person and scorching ray are also very common picks for many people, like I said, but I believe hold person is a weak spell and I generally avoid single target blasting, which is why they aren't in my list. In many others' though, they most certainly are.

So no, your sorcerer isn't particularly distinguished. Nearly three-quarters of what you mentioned is common. Could be a coincidence though. Anyway, I digress. I'm not here to tell you how to build your sorcerer. And thematic sorcerers are certainly possible, but I don't find them as strong, especially if I don't have a wizard in the party.

I believe that sorcerers suffer from having to stick to specific spells, making them often feel generic, and their limited spells known contribute to that feeling by not allowing them to branch out further. You obviously think otherwise, and we view this quite differently, so I don't think we'll be agreeing here.

I agree with shield, mage armor, absorb elements and counterspell, because they just keep you alive, but why polymorph, phantasmal force, hypnotic pattern? They are just overtuned spells, there's no need to pick them every game.
If you like a spell you are free to pick it for every one of your characters (for example I like to pick always detect thoughts and modify memory, if possible), but it's not like you don't have other choices.

[Chaos Jackal]

I agree with shield, mage armor, absorb elements and counterspell, because they just keep you alive, but why polymorph, phantasmal force, hypnotic pattern? They are just overtuned spells, there's no need to pick them every game.
If you like a spell you are free to pick it for every one of your characters (for example I like to pick always detect thoughts and modify memory, if possible), but it's not like you don't have other choices.

That's going back to my first post, where I did mention optimizing. With so few spells known, the "overtuned" spells, like you put it, become very important.

There's no "need" to pick anything, including shield and counterspell. You can try to stay alive by playing a very stealthy game, or relying on somebody else to cast counterspell for you, or maybe you've picked heavy armor proficiency with a dip and so you can mitigate the need for the 1st-level abjurations.

So yes, you have other choices. Of course you have other choices, that's always the case. Doesn't mean the choices are good. Or at least, like the OP mentions, as good.

You can always make something thematic, or focus on some specific niche. But it's easy, if you feel like you need to cover a number of bases, to end up picking from the same pool of 10-15 spells all the time.

[strangebloke]

Sorcerers vary a lot depending on subclass and metamagic choice, so it isn't that hard to make your sorcerer unique.

Divine souls get access to an entirely different spell list. Dragon sorcerers get 'mage armor' for free and are encourage to pick up elemental spells (and possibly play more aggressively in general). Shadow Sorcerers and Clockwork Souls and Abberant minds all get a lot of free spells known in one way or another. Shadow Sorcerer specifically pushes you toward melee attack rolls because you have a way of getting advantage for an entire combat.

Subtle spell pushes you to subtle manipulations in public places which is a great fit for some campaigns and a terrible one for others. Casting something like Tasha's hideous laughter in public/from stealth and getting away with it feel great. Twin spell allows you to pull of some insane (if resource-intensive) buffs, like giving two rogues Haste and doubling both their damage outputs. Or hell, grab Dragon's Breath with Twin and tell JC to eff off. Empower is simple but efficient and powerful. Distant and extend are kinda bad but have some weird niche applications (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?549891-Distant-Spell-Which-niches-does-it-occupy) like doubling the radius of earth tremor. Quicken gives an action (which you can't cast a leveled spell on) for the cost of a level 2 spell, so if you have some powerful use for your action because of multiclassing or something, you can use this to great effect.

The only four rules across all sorcerer builds are

You are not a utility caster. You do not have the spells known for it. Yes you can take alarm, but you really really shouldn't. Make someone else take Teleport, its not your problem.
Like Warlocks, you will want a lot of spells that scale well with level. This is why you pick fly, hold person, invisibility, etc. Not because you 'need them' but because its nice to be able to have a lot of options for every spell slot.
you can run out of resources fast if you're not careful, so try to pick metamagic and spells that are highly efficient rather than fixating on the most explosively powerful combos you can. Twinned Telekinesis is amazing but you don't want to rely on it every encounter so be sure to have shadow blade or dragon's breath.
You have a d6 hit dice and no armor. You need to invest build resources into surviving.


So for example its pretty easy to make a Dragonborn Red Dragon Sorcerer who uses mostly fire elemental spells and fear effects (and has the Draconic Fear feat to give him more resources) but its also possible to build a Human Shadow Sorcerer who picked up Agonizing Blast via Eldritch Adept and Eldritch blast via Magic intitiate, and hides in shadow while getting limitless, high-power blasting.

[Ogre Mage]

I highly doubt you will be the first or last person to feel this way. Sorcerer's as a class are badly designed and this is one aspect of it with a lack of free bloodline spells.

The Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul in Tasha's seem like a tacit admission by the designers that the lack of bloodline spells was a mistake. Hopefully this will be corrected in 6E.

[Sherlockpwns]

I had this problem and came up with my solution for our current campaign.

We are mid campaign - lvl 6 - and I am playing a halfling with the brief backstory that a god or similarly powerful being “intercedes” on my behalf and that my spells are just manifestations of that will. It’s a divine soul and all my spells revolve around me changing dice outcomes or similar things where you can RP some kind of intervention. At level 6 where we are my spell list is something like this:


Mage armor
Bane
Guiding bolt
Feather fall

Blind
Augury

Curse
Counter spell

And I expect level 7 will be confusion or death ward.

I also picked up lucky and have the halfling luck racial, as well as the divine soul 2d4 dice bonus.

Basically when someone misses because of bane or blind or hits because of guiding bolt I get to do a little RP of what turns that miss into a hit or visa versa.

It’s certainly not your normal sorcerer, especially augury, which I play as a vision or general “I have a bad feeling about this..”

It’s actually working quite well, it’s a bit concentration heavy and you’ll note the lack of AOE spells (and healing spells despite being a DS) - but that’s just it. Because I’m sticking to the theme of the character I am not lured in by the “but... fireball” desire.

The Bane / Blind combo has been doing some decent work at any rate. It’s been a very odd character for me, as I normally build mechanics first and then the character around it, but I went this path specifically to resolve the issue you are experiencing. That said, it’s not the powerhouse at the table but (unplanned) has a nice juxtaposition to our cleric who refuses to hurt anyone, so her character is all about bless and the help action and stuff to benefit the party while mine are mostly about hampering the enemy.

[Lucas Yew]

I'm of the opinion that Sorcerers know too less spells for their supposed magic-species stuff, in contrast to prep full casters in general preparing too many spells per day.

I'd rather have all preppies deal with "half level + statMod (minimum 1)" spells per day,
and at least (number equal to class level) spells known for fixed casters (whether this minimum number includes extra spells known for belonging in a subclass I didn't decide as of now).


I completely redesigned the Sorcerer in my world to make them not just a different flavor of Wizard.


Spells became abilities that could be used the appropriate times a day based on spell slots for that level.
Players chose a source or type of magic at level 1 (Fire Sorcerer, Transmuter Sorcerer, etc.).
Abilities (spells) were limited to only things that applied to the level 1 choice (fire spells, transmutation spells, etc.). This obviously made some choices better than others, but it allowed for some interesting NPCs.
Expanded the available abilities (spells) by adding from other lists or re-skinning current ones.
Dropped all verbal and material components so abilities look like abilities (no more "I am infused with innate magic... watch me cast a spell exactly as Wizards do!").
Metamagic remained as-is.

We had concerns about it being too restrictive, but the players ended up really enjoying the freedom to do magic like Carrie or Pinhead or Elsa or Dobby or whoever. It also made Wizards seem more like Wizards, so double win!

...And this (bolded point) too.
Why they still rely on tongues and/or an artificial construct known as (a) language(s) plus some specifically shaped appendage always irked me...

[MaxWilson]

Even if you're not specialising in AoE damage dealing, it's good/expected to have it as an option, and Fireball just seems the best all round option to take if you only have room for 1 pick. It's far ahead of an upcast Shatter, I'd only really consider Erupting Earth if I had Empower Spell which I'm unlikely to if not specialising in damage dealing, and Vitriolic Sphere ties you to 4th level slots which seem a good bit more precious than 3rd level.

FWIW, as a sorcerer with only 1 AoE pick, I'd go for Sickening Radiance over Fireball.

Also FWIW I like the way adding domain spells to sorcerers changes their flavor. My favorite is actually Wild Sorc: I used to allow them to roll their domain spells randomly off the sorcerer list, and I stopped only because Xanathar's removed domain spells from Storm Sorcs and I try to minimize my number of possibly-surprising house rules. I should go back to doing that, now that Tasha's has made domain spells for sorcerers unsurprising again.

[Ertwin]

The real problem is 5e turned Wizards into sorcerers, by not giving wizards set spell slots anymore. That was the real distinction between the two. Sorcerers could cast any spell they knew on a whim so long as they had a slot that level. Whereas if a wizard wanted to cast fireball more than once, they had to prepare it more than once.

With that distinction gone, there's really no reason to have separate classes.

[SharkForce]

The real problem is 5e turned Wizards into sorcerers, by not giving wizards set spell slots anymore. That was the real distinction between the two. Sorcerers could cast any spell they knew on a whim so long as they had a slot that level. Whereas if a wizard wanted to cast fireball more than once, they had to prepare it more than once.

With that distinction gone, there's really no reason to have separate classes.

not to mention that in most cases, the wizard also gets more spell slots (the sorcerer can get a few more of specific levels, but if they're trying to do that *and* actually use metamagic on a regular basis, that may prove quite challenging). plus they lost their large spell list (they used to share almost every spell the wizard had), and kept all their old limitations.

I also find the niche that they did give the new sorcerer (such as it is) to be nonsensical. why are sorcerers the only ones to get metamagic? why can't wizards research metamagic techniques? why can't a cleric be granted them by their deity? why can't eldritch knights or arcane tricksters pick up some basics? why couldn't a druid's power have the same effects?

the new feat helps make some sense of that, except that 1) it's so limited, and it doesn't make much sense that a wizard *couldn't* research an empowered fireball that they could use more than twice a day, and 2) this game is *supposed* to work featless.

so basically, sorcerer design is prone to leaving a player stuck with any bad choices they make for a long time, gave all the unique stuff they used to have to everyone else, and gained a niche that doesn't make sense (and frankly, in my opinion, does not compensate for all the stuff they lost).

I'm not convinced there is no design space for a sorcerer class. but the sorcerer as found in the PHB felt really poorly designed. tasha's subclasses are better in some ways (at least your subclass makes a major difference in how you play), though I'm still not convinced it's quite where it should be conceptually.

[MaxWilson]

The real problem is 5e turned Wizards into sorcerers, by not giving wizards set spell slots anymore. That was the real distinction between the two. Sorcerers could cast any spell they knew on a whim so long as they had a slot that level. Whereas if a wizard wanted to cast fireball more than once, they had to prepare it more than once.

With that distinction gone, there's really no reason to have separate classes.

I agree that 5E sorcerers have no real reason to exist. There's too much thematic overlap between bards, warlocks, sorcerers, and clerics--at least one of them ought to go.

Bards <=> sorcerers: innate magic
Warlocks <=> clerics: borrowed power
Warlocks <=> sorcerers: power through bloodlines

[Ertwin]

I agree that 5E sorcerers have no real reason to exist. There's too much thematic overlap between bards, warlocks, sorcerers, and clerics--at least one of them ought to go.

Bards <=> sorcerers: innate magic
Warlocks <=> clerics: borrowed power
Warlocks <=> sorcerers: power through bloodlines

They really should have gone all in on the bloodlines, and have them dictate more of the sorcerer abilities, much like how the clerics get different channel divinity effects.


Another option to justify the limited spells, could be treating all spells as being one level higher for damage and effects, making it a happy medium between wizard and warlock. That would make sorcerers more potent, while leaving the wizards kings of versatility.

[Kireban]

Taking the 2 touched feats gets you 4 more spells with free daily casts. These 2 feats are the best thing sorcerers got from Tasha.