Thug archetype

[Skrum]

I have an idea for a character that I'm not sure how to create mechanically. Flavor-wise, I want a thug - a mean, dirty fighter that exploits weaknesses and "doesn't fight fair." The obvious place to start is Rogue, but I'm rather wedded to the idea of duel-wielding daggers as their main attack. I was thinking Fighter 1 (or 2), Rogue X, probably opting for the swashbuckler subclass. My hesitation is this doesn't seem particularly supportive of duel-wielding. I wouldn't qualify for a feat until level 5 or 6, and in the mean time I'd be stuck clunkily drawing weapons over two turns.

1) Is this less annoying and clunky than I'm imagining?

2) Is there a better way to create this archetype? The swashbuckler's melee benefits are very good, but the other abilities don't as much.

[Aett_Thorn]

As to point 1), ask your DM if you can just draw both weapons on turn 1. I’ve never had a DM that doesn’t allow this for dual-wielders, even without the feat. Dual-wielding for most characters isn’t a huge benefit anyways.

If not, the Thief Rogue might be another option. Use your turn one bonus action to use Fast Hands for things like caltrops, ball bearings, and throwing sand into opponents eyes. Then draw your second dagger on turn 2.

[RogueJK]

"Dual-wielding dirty fighter that exploits weaknesses and doesn't fight fair" sounds like a Battlemaster Fighter/Swashbuckler Rogue multiclass to me.

Fighter gets you the Two Weapon Fighting Style, and Battlemaster gets you "dirty fighting" tricks like tripping/disarming/distracting/feinting/goading/etc. No matter what you pick for your other two initial Maneuvers, you'll definitely want Riposte, which is one of the few ways for a Rogue to get off-turn Sneak Attacks. This potentially doubles your Sneak Attack output in a round, and is a great option.

You'll want at least 3 levels of Fighter for the Battlemaster Maneuvers, but potentially as many as 4/5/6/8/11, depending on exactly what you want to achieve. You could even go Swashbuckler 3 or 4/Battlemaster X if you want more fighting and less roguery (though this means less Sneak Attack too).

I'd probably start Rogue 1, then go Rogue 1/Fighter 4 or 5 (depending on whether you want Extra Attack or not; it's less necessary if you're going to be primarily a TWF Rogue), and then Rogue 4/Fighter 4 or 5. Decide from there if you want more Swashbuckler levels or more Battlemaster levels, though I'd personally lean towards more Rogue. This progression doesn't significantly delay any of your ASIs.


As for the issue of not being able to draw two weapons until later levels, you could choose Variant Human or Custom Lineage for your race, and have the Dual Wielder feat from Level 1, which solves that issue. Or just ask your DM if he'll handwave the weapon drawing issue for the first few levels, if you want a race other than VHuman/CLineage.

[Lavaeolus]

So, when I think 'thug', the following images spring to mind:

* Brutish: hits harder than smarter, using STR over DEX
* More likely to solve a problem with violence than Stealth
* Intimidating, but not that Charismatic otherwise

That one's pretty easy to make in principle. Fighter/Rogue works well enough, but a two-level Barbarian dip also offers a lot of synergy: Reckless Attack is an on-demand source of advantage and Rage is generally nice for a melee character who isn't spellcasting. Just remember that only starting as a Barbarian gets you medium armor proficiency.

(Rule tip: finesse weapons can use Strength or Dexterity, and none of Rogue's features depend on you using the latter.)

That said, my image of a thug might not match yours. I can think of a few ways to play a 'dirty fighter', more generally. A Battle Master 3 / Rogue X can be a powerful combination: flavour your maneuvers as tricks, and use Riposte to try and get an extra Sneak Attack in as a reaction -- Sneak Attack is once-per-turn, not once-per-your-turn. This delays Rogue a lot, though; you could avoid falling behind by taking Fighter to 5, which might be valuable, but could mean you'll scarcely be a Rogue at all depending on what level your campaign goes to.

I'll also echo Thief Rogue. Now, the thing going against this is that Thief'll further give you alternate options for your bonus action: if you really wanted to focus on TWF, it might feel a little awkward. But throwing ball-bearings to knock people prone and caltrops to control the field might be on point, and it's particularly good if your DM lets you be more inventive with it (manipulating the environment, throwing dirt in eyes, etc.)

[Tanarii]

So, when I think 'thug', the following images spring to mind:

* Brutish: hits harder than smarter, using STR over DEX
* More likely to solve a problem with violence than Stealth
* Intimidating, but not that Charismatic otherwise
Yup. If I wanted to make a "typical Thug", I'd probably do a Human or Half-Orc Barbarian Criminal, with Tavern Brawler if feats were on the table.

[Skrum]

Of course thug can be interpreted in lots of ways and none of them are necessarily wrong, but my concept is more nut shots, eye gouges, and sucker punches than brute force. I definitely think dex-based over strength.

I'm liking variant human to grab duel wielding (why didn't I think it that??).

So how valuable is action surge? Is it worth fighter 2? It seems pretty worth it, but at that point going to 3 and getting battle master also seems pretty valuable.

For context, it is unlikely this character will go beyond 6th.

[Dork_Forge]

Of course thug can be interpreted in lots of ways and none of them are necessarily wrong, but my concept is more nut shots, eye gouges, and sucker punches than brute force. I definitely think dex-based over strength.

I'm liking variant human to grab duel wielding (why didn't I think it that??).

So how valuable is action surge? Is it worth fighter 2? It seems pretty worth it, but at that point going to 3 and getting battle master also seems pretty valuable.

For context, it is unlikely this character will go beyond 6th.

I wouldn't bother with Fighter 2 until later in your progression, you'll be significantly slowing down your Sneak and general Rogue progression for a single (probably non Sneak) attack per short rest in most cases.

[Lavaeolus]

I wouldn't bother with Fighter 2 until later in your progression, you'll be significantly slowing down your Sneak and general Rogue progression for a single (probably non Sneak) attack per short rest in most cases.

In principle, I think making it likely your Action Surge gets used for a Sneak Attack can be easy, if a bit cheesey. Assuming you've got another teammate in position, it should be possible to Ready an attack "when the next turn starts" or (to likely the same effect) "when I'm next able to attempt a Sneak Attack". Or you can just use it after a miss that would've been a SA.

Still, I don't really disagree with the overall point. This seems to be a relatively low level-cap, and while its value might depend based on the campaign's approach to short rests, it's worth bearing in mind that extra Action has to compete with: Expertise and a Sneak Attack die at all; Cunning Action, another early defining feature; your Rogue archetype and a SA buff; an ASI; etc.

[Sherlockpwns]

To me fighting dirty is synonymous with knocking prone and throwing traps (ball bearings, caltrops, etc).

Therefore - even with daggers - I see a str based thug.

If your DM allows the shove attack to trigger an off hand attack I’d be looking at thief with expertise in athletics. Again, similar to suggestions above, using objects like caltrops with your object interaction.

I don’t know if fighter is needed here for more “tricks”. You could ditch the Home Alone style combat and go Trickster instead and use spells like Grease, fog cloud, darkness, etc. but I think thief fits the thug motif better.

I’d consider a 1 level dip into fighter just for the style and armor prof.

One fun item to consider for this is thrown style, which lets you draw a weapon as a free action. It lets you do this even if you use it for a melee attack. Also then you can huck a dagger at someone for +2 dmg. This free action kinda overlaps with thief, so it could be nice if you want to go a different route.


This all said, I always wanted to make a str based thug that dual wields two chains (whips). For this type of thug you need custom lineage or v. Human for the dual wielder feat. If those are not allowed, I’d suggest bugbear for the extra 5ft reach and get the feat at 4.

I suggest starting as a fighter and keeping dex a 10 and maxing str for heavy armor. You don’t sneak, you smash.

For the style you may as well pick up twf as well.

So at level 2 you’ll be fully online with two whip attacks, both of which have sneak dice potentially.

From here you pour everything into rogue. You can pick up expertise at intimidation and other fun RP skills.

Scout may actually be the ideal subclass. Using your reaction you can potentially move out of melee range, so that next round you can use your bonus attack to hit instead of disengage. Your AC should be fine in heavy armor and uncanny dodge and evasion (even with no dex) should give you a lot of staying power, but I wouldn’t play this as a front line tank. More like an off-tank. Keep in mind whips threaten a big area for opportunity sneak dice!

Similar to above I’d expertise athletics and (again dm approval) use the whips to make prone attacks and then use the bonus action (with advantage due to prone) to smash them. Keep in mind you’ll need to move to 5ft for the advantage, but if you miss you can just hit from range and move away.

I love the cinematic idea of grabbing someone’s leg out with one chain and smashing them into the ground with the other!

[MustaKrakish]

I created a rogue subclass for it if you are interested:
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/cAnO9-wVUZZm

[Kane0]

Battlemaster 6 / Rogue the rest. Most rogue subclasses would work.

Careful when you try to nutshot an otyugh or spectre though.

[Segev]

If variant human is allowed, you could take dual wielder at first level.

[Splinterverse]

I like where you are going with this. I'm going to bookmark this thread to hopefully try this out in one of my games later!

[Skrum]

Davey "No Thumbs" Whitwicker

He got the name "No Thumbs" for his penchant to cut off the thumbs of people that got on his bad side. He found it much more humiliating to leave them alive, but unable to grasp a weapon properly. Plus, stories spread more quickly when victims are still alive to talk. His knack for brutality made him a natural enforcer, and he quickly gained a rep working for the Twenty Storms bandit group.

But the long arm of the law can only be evaded for so long. What should have been an easy ambush of a merchant wagon turned into a counter-ambush; Davey and several other bandits were captured by a posse of bounty hunters who were only posing as merchants. While in jail, Davey found out the truth - they had been sold out by one of their own in order to lower the heat on the Storms.

Now 7 years have passed, and Davey has escaped from prison with a single thought on his mind: collecting the thumbs of every single person who dared to double-cross a Whitwicker

Fighter 1/Swashbuckler Rogue 3
Variant Human
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 13
Backround: criminal (enforcer. Contact: Gerglagomodov "Gurgle" Thazhul-Braxx)
Abilities: Sneak Attack +2d6, Cunning Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting Style, Steady Aim, Fancy Footwork, Rhakish Audacity
Feats: Duel Wielder
Weapons: Rapier, Daggers

General strategy is obvious; use Rhakish Audacity to easily secure sneak attack every round, and cut people up with rapier and dagger attacks. Cunning Action and Fancy Footwork gives a lot mobility, so positioning should be a breeze. Daggers can be thrown for ranged threats. Also carries caltrops and oil for some battlefield control or to set up fire-based attacks of his allies. His AC is a respectable 16, and his mobility should save him from getting in over his head.