Necropolitan? Drawbacks? ... Advantages?

[bean illus]

It seems like only evil creatures should be allowed, but is that not true?

Losing Con on a melee? Are you now immune to Fort saves?

So, how's it work? At level 1, after gaining 1,000+ exp, you acquire the template, and that's that?

[Psyren]

Are you now immune to Fort saves?

Not all of them, just the ones that don't affect objects. For example, you'll be immune to Implosion (only affects creatures), but not Disintegrate (can work on objects.) This also means that while most fort saves won't bother you, the ones that can will have a pretty high chance of working relative to their CR since you'll have no Con score.

[bean illus]

Not all of them, just the ones that don't affect objects. For example, you'll be immune to Implosion (only affects creatures), but not Disintegrate (can work on objects.) This also means that while most fort saves won't bother you, the ones that can will have a pretty high chance of working relative to their CR since you'll have no Con score.

So, a disintegrate gets cast on a necro, then the necro rolls d20 with a zero modifier?

What are solutions? Does a bonus to fort saves work?

[Psyren]

So, a disintegrate gets cast on a necro, then the necro rolls d20 with a zero modifier?

What are solutions? Does a bonus to fort saves work?

well, zero + whatever you get from your class - but yes.

Bonuses that apply directly to your saves (e.g. Cloak of Resistance) should work. Bonuses to Con (e.g. Amulet of Health) won't however, because you don't have one.

[Eldest]

What are solutions? Does a bonus to fort saves work?

The general solutions I'd use is either the Diamond Mind maneuver that lets you do a concentration check instead of a fort save, or chase something to move the stat going to fort saves to a different stat. I am not sure that second one isn't dipping into homebrew, though, since my games use so much of it these days.

[Rater202]

You lose your con score(but not your ability to heal naturally due to a specific feature of the template) and need either negative energy or some kind of work around to be healed with magic.

you become immune to some but not all things that provide fortitude saves, notably including poison or disease.

Your lack of con is gonna hurt your HP, but all of your hit dice are gonna be d12 so unless your rolling and roll very poorly unless you're already something with high hit dice it might average out... If there are ways to get max hit points per hit die that'd be thing to look into. I recommend Improved Toughness to shore up that hit point hole

You become vulnerable to command, control, and turn undead, but become immune to literally every other means of controlling or altering your mind, except for like, an Oseteomancer's class-specific version of a certain spell. However, this also makes you immune to certain buffs I think.

You're gonna want to shore up your will and fortitude saves and look into ways of getting major HP buffs, but otherwise, there are no major mechanical downsides.

and if you want to play one from low level, ask the GM if they'd be willing to waive the XP penalty if you start as one, becuase I figure that that's a "balance the option to become one mid-game" options. It's otherwise pretty balanced and doesn't break anything either way. The worst the Gm can say is "no"

However, there are social drawbacks: While you aren't obviously undead, yu are going to be pale, gaunt, and won't be warm the way a living person is, which means that someone who knows what to look for won't have too much trouble pegging you as undead, and even though necropolitians are basically just people who don't know better or people who do know better but consider the undead in general to be an abomination, may get.. Violent.

Furthermore, the process of gaining the template more or less means that you've been crucified to death and that fricking hurts. That is one of the worst ways to die. Unless you've got some serious mental fortitude and force of personality(represented by high wisdom and charisma scores) even the fact that you did it of your own will isn't going to save you from being mentally scared.

[bean illus]

well, zero + whatever you get from your class - but yes.

Bonuses that apply directly to your saves (e.g. Cloak of Resistance) should work. Bonuses to Con (e.g. Amulet of Health) won't however, because you don't have one.

So Cunning Insight, or warblade's Mind Over Body both work (and stack)?

Anything else i should know about? How does one defend against Turn Undead.

[Quertus]

How does one defend against Turn Undead.

My senile mind says "Negative Energy Protection" and "Positive Energy Protection". Google says… Protection from Negative Energy doesn't do what you want. :smallfrown:

[Soranar]

there are a few ways to optimize a necropolitan through class features

-there's a sorcerer ACF that gives you an extra +2 hitpoints per sorcerer level
-certain classes (like a paladin of tyranny) add their CHA to all saves or their CHA to 1 save ( warlock power)
-a permanent black sand will heal you 1d4 per round (you can probably just swallow it since you don't eat anymore and it'll never leave you)

-fast healing still heals you too

[Vizzerdrix]

+1 to putting some blacksand in your boots or snorting it or whatever.

I recall a feat from dragon mag that keys hit points off of int or something. Someone will remember then name. Down side is you have to get busy with a fae or elf or something along those lines.

I think you qualify for spell stitching. I recall seeing arguments to boost this with the Magic in the Blood feat but I haven't looked into it.

[Remuko]

It seems like only evil creatures should be allowed, but is that not true?

Losing Con on a melee? Are you now immune to Fort saves?

So, how's it work? At level 1, after gaining 1,000+ exp, you acquire the template, and that's that?

No, nothing about the template requires you to be evil, nor does it make you evil.

The benefit is youre undead.

The drawback is, youre undead lol

Losing con on melee sucks but your RHD is a D12 now for w/e thats worth lol

yup immune to any fort save that doesnt work on objects.

I think you need to be level 3 to become one. It costs money, a level, and 1000 exp on top of the level loss.

[Thurbane]

In general Necropolitan works better on low HD types (Sorc, Wiz etc.) than others.


What are solutions?

Exemplar 4 adds Cha to Fort saves.

Citadel Elite 5 or Impure Prince 4 adds Wis to Fort saves.

Wedded to History feat can add Wis to Fort saves, I believe. Or possibly use Will saves in place of Fort?

Mind Over Body maneuver uses a Concentration check in place of a Fort save.

Headband of Conscious Effort allows a Concentration check in place of a Fort save, 1/day. Only 2000gp, so you could have multiples.


I recall a feat from dragon mag that keys hit points off of int or something. Someone will remember then name. Down side is you have to get busy with a fae or elf or something along those lines.

Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Technically speaking, it's a Greyhawk regional feat, in case that matters.

[Crake]

My senile mind says "Negative Energy Protection" and "Positive Energy Protection". Google says… Protection from Negative Energy doesn't do what you want. :smallfrown:

Stacking turn resistance is your best bet, bolstering yourself with your own rebuke is also a solution.

[Thurbane]

Cloak of Turn Resistance +4 is 11,000gp. You could ask the DM if he would allow a version with a higher bonus for more GP.

He might allow +8 for 44,000gp, for instance.

[nedz]

A one level dip in Dread Necromancer is worth considering.
It gives you infinite healing, Rebuke Undead and some spells.

[Rater202]

Depending on which version you use, the Improved Turn Resistance feat is either a one-shot +4 permanent turn resistance or an infinitely stackable +2 per pop.

[KillianHawkeye]

Btw, the reason the template doesn't make you evil is because it's pretty much based on the idea of a society that accepts the undead as equal citizens. You might be a horrible rotting corpse, but that doesn't mean you're a bad person. :smallamused:

Of course, you may encounter different viewpoints if you travel on your adventures...

[Ravens_cry]

And there's plenty of undead that aren't evil. Ghosts can be of any alignment, and Mummies are only Usually Lawful Evil, which means there's still plenty of possibility of one that is neutral or even good, and that's just a couple examples off the top of my head from Core.
In short, no, as a Necropoliton, no reason for you to be evil.

[Gorthawar]

Something to keep in mind is that undead die when reaching zero hit points. You don't get that extra 10 hp safety net where some opponents might ignore you. Especially at early levels this can make a difference.

[Kalkra]

Necropolitian also gives you free virtual taint and taint immunity, if you're playing with that.

[bean illus]

Necropolitian also gives you free virtual taint and taint immunity, if you're playing with that.

Can one take taint and be good?

What are some expoits for that?

[bean illus]

Wait, ... . I was almost convinced that 6.5 HP per level was not enough for a front liner. But ... .



-a permanent black sand will heal you 1d4 per round (you can probably just swallow it since you don't eat anymore and it'll never leave you)

-fast healing still heals you too

Well, that's pretty darn useful. Permanency for black sand cost ... 660 gp?

I see no rule about how much black sand is needed. An argument could be made, that it could be separated, and the stash be left somewhere else. That way, if it were dispelled, it could be retrieved and a another dose taken later. But even without permissive DM shenanigans, it would need dispelled twice to quit working, and the permanency could be reapplied later?

Of course, that only heals 2.5 HP per round. And since most combats are about 4 rounds, it only totals 10 HP avg, during combat.


Stacking turn resistance is your best bet, bolstering yourself with your own rebuke is also a solution.

I notice that bolstering is specifically called out for evil clerics.
Whereas, turn resistance cost feat(s) and barely works?


A one level dip in Dread Necromancer is worth considering.
It gives you infinite healing, Rebuke Undead and some spells.

That is worth considering. It's not quite infinite healing, so much as infinite access to healing, but still. It also implies a standard action. When combined with black sand, it's 4.5 per round, but the standard action is crippling.

Am i reading that right?

But Faerie Mysteries Initiate, now if you get into that as an Int based character, you've got just about the highest HP in the game. Aren't HP bonuses retroactive? And buffs increase HP also?

If so, then a melee necropolitan with FMI and black sand is certainly doable.

[JNAProductions]

Of course, that only heals 2.5 HP per round. And since most combats are about 4 rounds, it only totals 10 HP avg, during combat.

I think the main benefit is you enter every combat at max HP.

[Crake]

I notice that bolstering is specifically called out for evil clerics.
Whereas, turn resistance cost feat(s) and barely works?

Bolstering basically works by setting the undead's HD at your effective turning level based on your check, making say, a level 1 zombie SIGNIFICANTLY harder to turn. Turn resistance on the other hand, works by increasing your existing HD. For an undead monster that doesn't really level up, it just basically sets the bar higher, but for a player character who's own HD is constantly increasing as they level, it makes level-appropriate turn undead attempts practically impossible if you stack enough. Only really optimized turn undead clerics would be able to match you. The turn resistance feat is +4 turn resistance, there's a cloak which I think is another +4

[Rater202]

Bolstering basically works by setting the undead's HD at your effective turning level based on your check, making say, a level 1 zombie SIGNIFICANTLY harder to turn. Turn resistance on the other hand, works by increasing your existing HD. For an undead monster that doesn't really level up, it just basically sets the bar higher, but for a player character who's own HD is constantly increasing as they level, it makes level-appropriate turn undead attempts practically impossible if you stack enough. Only really optimized turn undead clerics would be able to match you. The turn resistance feat is +4 turn resistance, there's a cloak which I think is another +4

And Necropolitan already has +2 turns resistance, so the feat and the cloak makes you effectively 10 levels higher than you actively are for purposes of being turned or Rebuked, basically meaning that you don't have to worry about it from a cleric in a level appropriate encounter unless the GM is electing to make a threat specifically to defeat you instead of playing to verisimilitude.

[Asmotherion]

So, a disintegrate gets cast on a necro, then the necro rolls d20 with a zero modifier?

What are solutions? Does a bonus to fort saves work?

Buff your charisma into the +10 bracket at least, and use Ruin Delver's Fortune. You still keep your Class Fortitude Progression, and together with it, you can have a Decent Fortitude as an Undead.

[Crake]

And Necropolitan already has +2 turns resistance, so the feat and the cloak makes you effectively 10 levels higher than you actively are for purposes of being turned or Rebuked, basically meaning that you don't have to worry about it from a cleric in a level appropriate encounter unless the GM is electing to make a threat specifically to defeat you instead of playing to verisimilitude.

Well, it's not unfeasible for a holy order to see your character as some kind of abomination that needs to be put down, and so they send their undead hunters after you, but ideally you'd have some kind of forewarning/foreshadowing of that taking place and it would give yourself time to prepare. Honestly, against a standard cleric, as long as your effective HD is above half their level+4 (the maximum bonus you can get from a good turn check), the only thing turning you actually accomplishes is making you flee for a little while, which, sure, is kinda sucky, but ultimately there are plenty of spells that do just that, or worse anyway.

So ultimately, getting turned is only really an issue when a turn-focused cleric is specifically coming at you, in which case, you're either hosed (insta-dusted), or your DM gave you time to prepare, and you can find workarounds. One of the best protections against turning for example, is just staying further than 60ft away from the cleric.

[bean illus]

I think you need to be level 3 to become one. It costs money, a level, and 1000 exp on top of the level loss.

Is this true? I don't see the level 3 thing, just the 1,000 exp loss, and the 1 level loss.


And Necropolitan already has +2 turns resistance, so the feat and the cloak makes you effectively 10 levels higher than you actively are for purposes of being turned or Rebuked, basically meaning that you don't have to worry about it from a cleric in a level appropriate encounter unless the GM is electing to make a threat specifically to defeat you instead of playing to verisimilitude.

I had forgotten the necropolitan's +2. But isn't +6 enough to resist the turning (22 or higher - Cleric’s level + 4)? I guess if the cleric was 3 levels above you, they would have a 5% chance?


One of the best protections against turning for example, is just staying further than 60ft away from the cleric.

Ahhh, of course.
So at early levels, stay 60' away from clerics that are your level or higher. When possible, take the improved turn resistance feat, or buy the cloak. At upper levels, try to have both.

[Thurbane]

Is this true? I don't see the level 3 thing, just the 1,000 exp loss, and the 1 level loss.

I think level 3 is based on that being the earliest level when you can lose a level and 1000xp without being destroyed...

[Drelua]

A hat of disguise is probably a good investment, might not fool everyone if they take a close look at you but the less people notice the better. And it's only 1800 gp, it can't hurt. Just try not to shake hands, disguise self won't help with that. Although you could warm your hands by a fire first, that might do it.

[Crake]

I think level 3 is based on that being the earliest level when you can lose a level and 1000xp without being destroyed...

Correct. If the level loss and xp loss result in the creature reaching 0xp, they are instantly destroyed and turned to dust, unable to be raised or revived again by any means. Doing the ritual at 2nd level means you lose a level, bringing you to level 1 with 500 xp (halfway to the next level, just like raise dead does), and then you lose 1000xp, bringing you to -500xp, which means you're destroyed. Doing the ritual at 3rd level however, drops your xp to 2nd level with 1000xp, which you then lose, putting you exactly on the cusp of 2nd level.

[bean illus]

Correct. If the level loss and xp loss result in the creature reaching 0xp, they are instantly destroyed and turned to dust, unable to be raised or revived again by any means. Doing the ritual at 2nd level means you lose a level, bringing you to level 1 with 500 xp (halfway to the next level, just like raise dead does), and then you lose 1000xp, bringing you to -500xp, which means you're destroyed. Doing the ritual at 3rd level however, drops your xp to 2nd level with 1000xp, which you then lose, putting you exactly on the cusp of 2nd level.

... let me see if i understand what you're saying.

If you are level 2.9 (nearly enough xp for 3rd), and you do the ritual, then you "lose a level", an end up at level 0.5 (half way to 1st). At this point -1,000 xp = dead (permanently).

So performing the ritual 'immediately' after attaining 3rd, the character lose 1.5 levels, and becomes level 1.5? Then 1,000 xp is subtracted?

[Crake]

... let me see if i understand what you're saying.

If you are level 2.9 (nearly enough xp for 3rd), and you do the ritual, then you "lose a level", an end up at level 0.5 (half way to 1st). At this point -1,000 xp = dead (permanently).

So performing the ritual 'immediately' after attaining 3rd, the character lose 1.5 levels, and becomes level 1.5? Then 1,000 xp is subtracted?

You lose a level as if raised by the raise dead spell. That is, you go back down a level, and your xp is set halfway through that level. How far through your current level is irrelevant. If you're level 2.9 or you're level 2.0, in either case you're set back to 1.5 (500xp through first level). If you're level 3 in any capacity, you get set to level 2.5 (1000xp through the second level). AFTER that is done, you then lose an additional 1000xp. So a 2nd level character, after being raised, would end up 1st level with 500xp, and then would lose 1000xp, leaving them at -500, which equals dead permanently. A 3rd level character, after being raised, would be 2nd level, with 1000xp, which they would then lose, meaning they're exactly 2nd level.

[bean illus]

You lose a level as if raised by the raise dead spell. That is, you go back down a level, and your xp is set halfway through that level. How far through your current level is irrelevant. If you're level 2.9 or you're level 2.0, in either case you're set back to 1.5 (500xp through first level). If you're level 3 in any capacity, you get set to level 2.5 (1000xp through the second level). AFTER that is done, you then lose an additional 1000xp. So a 2nd level character, after being raised, would end up 1st level with 500xp, and then would lose 1000xp, leaving them at -500, which equals dead permanently. A 3rd level character, after being raised, would be 2nd level, with 1000xp, which they would then lose, meaning they're exactly 2nd level.

That sounds like what i said. But thanks for the clear reiteration, and all your other help.

When i think about it, that makes more sense than ... losing a level and going from level 3.01 to level 2.99 (i know levels aren't gradiated in thousandths, but i rarely have to call a level a "half level" either).

[Thurbane]

Long story short, if you can get Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Improved Turn Resistance + Cloak of Turn Resistance, Headband(s) of Conscious Effort - a Necropolitan can be quite a resilient character.

[Vizzerdrix]

Evolved undead is a nice template to stack on this. You get some goodies in the stat department annd fast healing too.

[Crake]

Evolved undead is a nice template to stack on this. You get some goodies in the stat department annd fast healing too.

Evolved undead does require that you have been an undead for at least 100 years though, not really applicable if you're planning on becoming a necropolitan in the middle of a campaign.

[Quertus]

Evolved undead does require that you have been an undead for at least 100 years though, not really applicable if you're planning on becoming a necropolitan in the middle of a campaign.

One scroll of Teleport Through Time, and a century of downtime underwater basket weaving later, and you're good to go. :smallwink:

Otherwise, yeah, doesn't work in most campaigns, as they just don't give you that kind of downtime. Although, the ones that do? I guess that could explain why you needed to go Necropolitan in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[Batcathat]

One scroll of Teleport Through Time, and a century of downtime underwater basket weaving later, and you're good to go. :smallwink:

That reminds me of one of the Futurama movies, where hundreds of versions of a time-travelling Bender spend thousands of years in the basement (then they decide to all come out at the same time, thus sort of breaking the universe, but that's not really relevant for this discussion).

[Kalkra]

Can one take taint and be good?

What are some expoits for that?

Heroes of Horror is kinda unclear on taint. It says that you can be good and have taint, but REALLY good people avoid it. That being said, any undead creature automatically gets a virtual taint score equal to Cha/2 + 1, and are immune to the effects of taint.

There are two kinds of taint, corruption and depravity. Corruption happens when your taint score is higher than your Con (which is effectively 0, because you're undead), and depravity happens when your taint is higher than your Wis. When you become moderately tainted (2 taint with 0 Con for corruption, 6 with a Wis of 9-12 for depravity) you get a bonus feat. By RAW, this can be any feat, but a lot of DMs rule that it only applies to Tainted feats. You get another at severe taint (6 taint with 0 Con for corruption, 18 taint with a Wis of 9-12 for depravity).

Some nice Tainted feats include Eldritch Corruption, which requires moderate depravity and gives you free metamagic by dealing 2 points of Con damage to an ally (one of the options is +2 Heighten, which is nice for early entry cheese), Mad Faith, which requires mild depravity and gives you an extra 2nd-level divine spell slot, and an extra 3rd if you have severe depravity (regardless of whether or not you would normally have spells of that level, very nice at low levels, also good for early entry cheese), and Surge of Malevolence, which requires gives a +3 untyped bonus to ANY attack roll, save, or check for each level of corruption you have once per day (so +3 for mild, +6 for moderate, +9 for severe). This can boost level checks and other things you can't normally boost.

If you are evil, you get more options, but free feats is plenty.

[Vaern]

Of course, that only heals 2.5 HP per round. And since most combats are about 4 rounds, it only totals 10 HP avg, during combat.

Combat healing in general is usually considered to be a subpar use of action economy unless someone is on the verge of death and absolutely needs a couple of extra hit points right just now, or you have a big Heal ready to drop. Being able to heal out of combat for literally free and always being topped off for your next encounter, though, can be extremely valuable.

[Thunder999]

2.5hp a round in combat is actually quite nice if you're not spending actions on it, and when you don't have the luxury of going to -10 getting an extra 10hp over 4 rounds is a nice way to offset that.

[Calthropstu]

So, a disintegrate gets cast on a necro, then the necro rolls d20 with a zero modifier?

What are solutions? Does a bonus to fort saves work?

Disintegrate wrecks undead like nothing else. I used it as a primary attack on Strahd as pretty much any elemental damage was handled. It's the most effective anti-undead spell I know of on the arcane list. And it literally requires items to defend against.

[Thurbane]

Disintegrate wrecks undead like nothing else. I used it as a primary attack on Strahd as pretty much any elemental damage was handled. It's the most effective anti-undead spell I know of on the arcane list. And it literally requires items to defend against.

Well, SR and/or a good touch AC also help...

[Ruethgar]

Losing con on melee sucks but your RHD is a D12 now for w/e thats worth lol

Just wanted to point out that this is misrepresents the template's effects. All HD are increased to d12, racial and otherwise. It is one of the few templates to actually do that making undead significantly less of a burden for lower HD classes.

[Zanos]

Just wanted to point out that this is misrepresents the template's effects. All HD are increased to d12, racial and otherwise. It is one of the few templates to actually do that making undead significantly less of a burden for lower HD classes.
Don't almost all undead templates raise all HD to d12s?

d12 HP is pretty good upgrade for a wizard. Assuming average hit points, you'd get 6.5 a level, which is the same as a d4 with 18 con. If you can swing a desecrate it's equivalent to 22 con, and if you can get your grubby hands on a fell energy desecrate, it's 28 con. If your DM uses max HP per HD it's even better.


Disintegrate wrecks undead like nothing else. I used it as a primary attack on Strahd as pretty much any elemental damage was handled. It's the most effective anti-undead spell I know of on the arcane list. And it literally requires items to defend against.
Disintegrate is quite good on undead, but as a ray it's susceptible to ray deflection and friendly fire. Which I would recommend taking as a necropolitan wizard. Glass Strike is another one that's hard to defend against. Spell Resistance/Immunity are possible defenses, other than shoring up your fort save with items.

[bean illus]

Heroes of Horror is kinda unclear on taint. It says that you can be good and have taint, but REALLY good people avoid it. That being said, any undead creature automatically gets a virtual taint score equal to Cha/2 + 1, and are immune to the effects of taint.

There are two kinds of taint, corruption and depravity. Corruption happens when your taint score is higher than your Con (which is effectively 0, because you're undead), and depravity happens when your taint is higher than your Wis. When you become moderately tainted (2 taint with 0 Con for corruption, 6 with a Wis of 9-12 for depravity) you get a bonus feat. By RAW, this can be any feat, but a lot of DMs rule that it only applies to Tainted feats. You get another at severe taint (6 taint with 0 Con for corruption, 18 taint with a Wis of 9-12 for depravity).

Some nice Tainted feats include Eldritch Corruption, which requires moderate depravity and gives you free metamagic by dealing 2 points of Con damage to an ally (one of the options is +2 Heighten, which is nice for early entry cheese), Mad Faith, which requires mild depravity and gives you an extra 2nd-level divine spell slot, and an extra 3rd if you have severe depravity (regardless of whether or not you would normally have spells of that level, very nice at low levels, also good for early entry cheese), and Surge of Malevolence, which requires gives a +3 untyped bonus to ANY attack roll, save, or check for each level of corruption you have once per day (so +3 for mild, +6 for moderate, +9 for severe). This can boost level checks and other things you can't normally boost.

If you are evil, you get more options, but free feats is plenty.


The Taint feats could work, though my melee idea was to dump Con, Cha, and Wis.

But am i understanding that Mad Faith allows access to zone of truth, for entry to Church Inquisitor at ECL 3?

So rapid dips like this are possible (primary contact, frog's fane)?
1. Cloistered 1
2. Cloistered 2
3. Church Inquisitor 1
4. Church Inquisitor 2
5. Divine Oracle 1
6. Seeker of the Misty Isle 1
7. Divine Oracle 2
8. Sacred Exorcist 1
9. Divine Disciple 1
10. Contemplative 1

We just have to talk an elf deity into accepting an undead cleric. Elves have the Baelnorn lich, so there's precedent.