Theurgy Wizard?

[Ogun]

Does anyone use this UA subclass or is it pretty much discarded?

[P. G. Macer]

I have some character concepts that use this subclass, but Wizards of the Coast abandoned the subclass back in 2017, and with good reason, as it’s brokenly powerful, being the second-strongest wizard subclass to get to UA, after the Lore Master. If you want a DM to consider letting you play one, be ready to take (or even preemptively suggest!) some pretty heavy nerfs.

[JNAProductions]

I have some character concepts that use this subclass, but Wizards of the Coast abandoned the subclass back in 2017, and with good reason, as it’s brokenly powerful, being the second-strongest wizard subclass to get to UA, after the Lore Master. If you want a DM to consider letting you play one, be ready to take (or even preemptively suggest!) some pretty heavy nerfs.

What makes you say it's so powerful? It's nice, for sure, but I've used it and not really noticed it being broken.

[Kane0]

Between Celestial Warlock, Divine Soul Sorc, Arcana Cleric, etc I don't think there's really much call for the same but for Wizard. It was a little bit wonky where it got cleric subclass features before the cleric did but otherwise it's not a terrible UA option.

Edit: Plus the Dragonmarked racial options and Guild backgrounds that give a bundle of spells not already on your list especially when combined with feat options now and not counting actual multiclassing, even less a reason for Wizards to really want a subclass just to get access to some nonwizard spells.

[Pandamonium]

I tried it for a 10th level oneshot and I personally found it underwhelming. Sure it was nice to have some Cleric spells under the belt and the Divine Arcana to put a +2 to spell DC twice per long rest was good but otherwise it was a niche gimmick but nothing more.

[Ogun]

Thanks for the replies.
I really only want it to add Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing to an Artificer/Wizard.
Not optimal but super flavorful.
The spells also desirable for at least the flavor.
The other cleric abilities are less interesting.

[P. G. Macer]

What makes you say it's so powerful? It's nice, for sure, but I've used it and not really noticed it being broken.

The main issue I see is getting a cleric subclass’s 17th Level feature at 14th Level, three levels ahead of the cleric. In many ways IMO, it can end up being more cleric-y than certain cleric playstyles, e.g. back-line clerics who aren’t reliant on Spirit Guardians.

It also depends on how you interpret the line about not being able to add non-Domain cleric spells once you’ve added all the domain spells; specifically, if you define “all” as all 10, or all at the available level. I initially interpreted it as the latter, but the former is more likely the RAW answer (as far as abandoned playtest content can be RAW).


Between Celestial Warlock, Divine Soul Sorc, Arcana Cleric, etc I don't think there's really much call for the same but for Wizard. It was a little bit wonky where it got cleric subclass features before the cleric did but otherwise it's not a terrible UA option.

Edit: Plus the Dragonmarked racial options and Guild backgrounds that give a bundle of spells not already on your list especially when combined with feat options now and not counting actual multiclassing, even less a reason for Wizards to really want a subclass just to get access to some nonwizard spells.

I think it’s important to recognize that a significant amount of power creep has occurred since spring of 2017, which is when the Theurgy tradition last appeared. IIRC, the Ravnica backgrounds were absolutely decried as such upon their debut, and so were the Dragonmarked races. But the Theurgy tradition last appeared pre-Xanathar’s, so at the time, it represented a major boost in power to a class that is often considered the most powerful in the game, and IMHO it still is that, it’s just that some of the rest of the game started to catch up.

[JNAProductions]

What 17th level Cleric feature is OP to have at 14th level?

[SharkForce]

my biggest problem with it is the +2 save DC (and yes, that *is* a problem, especially if WotC are going to release reasonably common magic items that increase save DC on top of it). it badly breaks bounded accuracy, to a point where as early as 9th level you can be throwing around DC 17 saves against enemies that may very well have no saving throw bonus against them, giving an 85% fail rate on those spells. and it's only going to get worse from there.

my second-biggest problem is allowing a wizard to add whatever the most appealing cleric spells are to their own list. wizards have a huge list with a bunch of niche spells, clerics tend to have a few "workhorse" spells that do much of the heavy lifting.

wizards getting access to cleric capstones before clerics do is a distant third. yes, it bothers me and feels quite silly, but compared to the problems that start as early as level 2 that can warp the game, it is not such a big deal.

[MaxWilson]

I think it’s important to recognize that a significant amount of power creep has occurred since spring of 2017, which is when the Theurgy tradition last appeared. IIRC, the Ravnica backgrounds were absolutely decried as such upon their debut, and so were the Dragonmarked races. But the Theurgy tradition last appeared pre-Xanathar’s, so at the time, it represented a major boost in power to a class that is often considered the most powerful in the game, and IMHO it still is that, it’s just that some of the rest of the game started to catch up.

I've seen far more pushback vs Ravnica backgrounds than Dragonmarked races, since Dragonmarked races were carefully designed with built-in antisynergies (spell list selection may offer a spell exciting to one class, but you have to take a race with unfavorable ASIs, or else all the other spells from the Dragonmark are already on your class list).

Tasha's tried to relax those antisynergies ASIs but there's been enormous pushback against Tasha's.

Good points about power creep, and maybe Theurgy will make a comeback for Tasha's games (should we call that 5TE for 5E / Tasha's Everything instead of 5E?) but not necessarily for PHB/Xanathar games.

[MrStabby]

Theurgy is weak but exploitable.

By which I mean most options are not worth the bother, but there are a couple of domains that stand out. Tempest beomses scarily good at blasting when you add wizard spells to the list.

Knowledge becomes really, really good at int based skill checks when Int is the casting stat at a very low cost.

Are these combinations "broken"? No, but they are very powerful on top of an already powerful class.



The class gets a little wonky at high levels, not least because you can get cleric abilities early - though not many of them are really an issue and even if they were, by level 14 as a DM I am probably more worried about the Theurge casting Force Cage than I am about a higher level cleric ability.


Technically you can get generic cleric spells as early as level 9 using scrolls to learn from, though obviously you can get domain spells sooner. How powerful this is depends on the domain, but realistically the Wizard has natively the best spell list so you are unlikely to have more than about three spells from any given domain that would be better than a wizard spell you could take in its place. If you do want non-domain cleric spells that means investing in a LOT of spells known that you will probably rarely use to pick up cleric spells.

The channel divinity adding +2 to a spell DC is nice; it is a solid level 2 ability. Portent from the divination wizard fulfills a similar role, and I would argue better - likely to be a bigger impact and more flexible as well. At higher levels less frequent I guess.

At level 6 the Theurge gets cleric level 2 abilities - if the ability is broken at level 6 it was probably going to be broken on the cleric 4 levels earlier.

Basically, in order to be overpowered, there needs to be a specific interaction between some wizard ability/spell and a cleric feature that would be otherwise unavailable to the wizard. Or, an ability that is so powerful that transfered to the wizard makes a character a bit too powerful by virtue of the fact the wizard is a stronger base class.

My suggestion of options to watch would be:

Knowledge (for out of combat OPness)
Tempest (interaction of cleric ability with wizard ligtning/thunder spells)
Order (bonus action casting of wizard spells, wizard spells targetting allies - I havent seen an issue here yet but with new spells that might be released in future this is worth keeping an eye on)
Death (technically can have an interaction between wizard spells and removing necrotic resistance but it is improved reper at 14 that lets you twin finger of death or soulcage that is of note - even this isn't really powerful, but its more on the list as new necromancy wizard spells might be released)
Peace (too powerful domain abilities combined with wizard spell list - not an interaction just cumulative power)
Twilight (Same as above)

Of these, most are fine with the curent spell list but just need an eye out in case new releases add some spells that could be broken.

The problem with the Theurge is that in order to get the good stuff, it has to give up a lot. Access to so many more spells is nice, but you need to give up other great wizard spells to do so. Some of the abilities are great, but not like they are better than you could get from any other type of wizard.




If you are going to make a class based system then there will have to be some sacrifices in terms of how customised classes will be. Clerics are great, but they don't really capture the role of someone who studies scripture and whose abilities are underpinned by intelligence that well. Likewise the cleric (and things like divine soul) can be a bit bland because they offer generic cleric rather than the more flavourful domain option. A "domain first" atypical cleric is a nice addition as an option.