Wizard Dip for Battlesmith Artificer

[Jon talks a lot]

I'm building a Battle Smith Artificer, and I want to take a 2 level dip into wizard. I'm unsure whether or not I should go Bladesinger or War Magic. They each have their benefits.

I can't decide which is better. I figured out the AC for my build at each level and realized that they have the same AC if I dip bladesinger or War Magic because Bladesinger can only have light armor and War Magic can wear halfplate and a shield.

Neither increases damage from my attacks.

So, all I'm left with to decide is their other benefits.

Bladesinger:
6 times per day for 1 minute, I get the following:
+10 Walking Speed
Advantage on DEX (Acrobatics) Checks
+5 to Concentration Saving Throws

War Magic:
+5 Initiative Bonus
+2 AC or +4 to a Saving throw as a reaction, and I can only cast cantrips until the end of my last turn (I'll often only be casting cantrips anyway, since I'm a melee frontliner that is a half-caster).

What should I do.

[BigRedJedi]

Put me in the camp that thinks Battle Smith is the one subclass of Artificer that shouldn't dip, because your Steel Defender has scaling characteristics based on your Artificer level, but, that aside:

If you are a melee front-liner, you likely can optimize your AC with Medium armor and a shield, either of which would prevent you from Bladesong. Additionally, a Bladesinger dip is best served by going to at least 6 to get their substantially more powerful version of Extra Attack. Also, keep in mind that a more realistic number of daily uses is 3-4 for most games, even those that are "planned" to go to 20.

If looking at specific benefits, the big one for Bladesong is the Concentration boost, but War Magic can give you a +4 to a CON save as a reaction, which will protect you from at least one hit suffered per turn (Bladesong would apply more than once, but still...)

Just some things to think about.

[stoutstien]

Hard to dip out of artificer but of the 2 war wizard would win in my book. Going first is pretty solid and the reaction is okay to have as a fall back defensive option.

I would only look at dipping into wizard if there was other things you were after such as expanded spell casting abilities.

[Jon talks a lot]

It seems to be the opinion that I shouldn't dip at all. This makes sense. Messing with my progression and missing out on an ASI is pretty disadvantagous.
You are correct that I have a good AC dip or not.

I think I won't dip at all. Thanks for the advice.

[Whaleman]

As a person who was dipped the into War Wizard as a Battlesmith (Now level 12). It has worked just fine great. The wizard dip gives me access to spellbook rituals and the ability to prep a ton of first level spells and save my Artificer prep for higher levels. The hp loss on the pet is annoying but not terrible (10 hp). The reaction is perfect for when I am running out of shields or absorb elements. My AC gets pushed up to 24 with the reaction and I can use my flash of genius for skill checks since I still have the War reaction. Finally the +5 to initiative works well with helm of awareness!

[Evaar]

Between the two, War Wizard is definitely a better option.

But I agree with the others that sticking pure Artificer is probably the better option. Artificers get too many goodies from class levels. And if you were playing in a mythical "all the way to 20" campaign, you really don't want to miss out on the Artificer capstone.

[kore]

It seems to be the opinion that I shouldn't dip at all. This makes sense. Messing with my progression and missing out on an ASI is pretty disadvantagous.
You are correct that I have a good AC dip or not.

I think I won't dip at all. Thanks for the advice.

Just adding one more opinion to the "don't dip" crowd. I'm playing a Battle Smith at level 12 and it's so much fun, don't delay your features.

[CMCC]

War wizard seems like the much better option to me. Arcane Deflection on a melee build is pretty great.

Missing out on the lvl 6 bladesinger ability would hurt my soul.

[GearsX]

I wouldnt dip, you can already get +5 to initiative if you have 20 int and you use your flash of genius. infuse your helm with your helm of awarness infusion to also gain advantage on that init roll..

Going full out Artificer wins out in my book, already being able to attune up to 6 magical items at once is overkill, thats double the normal amount, having fun wearing 6 attunable items while the rest of the party only have 3...

then that lvl 20 ability, an extra +1 to all savin throws PER magic items you are currently attuned too, thats a max of an extra +6, yes please.

[Citadel97501]

War Wizard and Blade Singer are both great but due to the Battlesmith being more of a weapon guy than cantrip blasting I highly suggest War Wizard instead. That being said, I personally think you need 5 in Wizard for any artificer as Tiny Servant is just to cool to pass up, which is also how I feel about Haste for the Blade Singer. So Artificer 1+, Wizard 5 or 6, is an absolute must for me on any Wizard dip.

War Wizard: 5
Blade Singer : 6

[Dork_Forge]

I gotta support don't dip overall, slowing your features and your SD's hp (and potentially Homunculus if you take it) is a big blow and the Artificer doesn't really have any dead levels anymore, as well as a stellar capstone.

If you absolutely must dip, I go War Wizard, the initiative bump is fantastic, the reaction defense makes delaying Flash of Genius hurt less (and let's you dedicate it more for allies) and Bladesinger busies up your bonus action when you already have SD to command.

[Theodoxus]

I agree with don't dip. However, I am looking forward to the time I can play a Battlesmith 3/Bladesinger X. But that's a Wizard with an Artificer dip, so doesn't count.

[quindraco]

I'm building a Battle Smith Artificer, and I want to take a 2 level dip into wizard. I'm unsure whether or not I should go Bladesinger or War Magic. They each have their benefits.

I can't decide which is better. I figured out the AC for my build at each level and realized that they have the same AC if I dip bladesinger or War Magic because Bladesinger can only have light armor and War Magic can wear halfplate and a shield.

Neither increases damage from my attacks.

So, all I'm left with to decide is their other benefits.

Bladesinger:
6 times per day for 1 minute, I get the following:
+10 Walking Speed
Advantage on DEX (Acrobatics) Checks
+5 to Concentration Saving Throws

War Magic:
+5 Initiative Bonus
+2 AC or +4 to a Saving throw as a reaction, and I can only cast cantrips until the end of my last turn (I'll often only be casting cantrips anyway, since I'm a melee frontliner that is a half-caster).

What should I do.

You left out the primary Bladesinger benefit of +INT to AC during the bladesong. If you want to melee frontliner a wizard, bladesingers are better at it than war wizards - but I should stress that battlesmith fundamentally doesn't force you into melee if you don't want to. Your defender has no ranged output, but you sure can.

The clear-cut answer is Bladesinger, so you can be AC 22 before your magic items dial it up even higher. A standard Artificer at high levels is base AC 19 (from +2 armor) + 3 (+1 shield) + cloak of protection + ring of protection = 24, 25 if an armorer or a warforged, 26 if both. That's 26-28 as a War Mage, and only against one attack - War Mage +2 isn't on until your next turn, unlike Shield. With a bladesinger dip your AC is 24 (+2 armor) + cloak + ring = 26, 27 if a warforged. AC 26-27 (31-32 during a Shield reaction) against all incoming attacks is patently absurd. You can get your AC even higher - the Defense fighting style and the Dual Wielder feat will both stack - but they're comparatively expensive for their benefit. Still, just to emphasize, if you burned a pair of feats on that (to avoid any discussion of more dips), and you were a warforged, that's AC 29. At AC 29, a Tarrasque has a 55% chance to hit you - and if he does, you can Shield, and unlike a War Mage's +2, Shield will stay up for the entire multiattack. At AC 34, the Tarrasque has a 30% chance of hitting you. That's without accounting for the defender defending you (which is as good as blur, but only against one attack, and you have to decide before the Tarrasque rolls) or defensive spells like mirror image (mirror image is particularly good on a melee mage with Sentinel, since when an image gets stabbed you get to stab) and, well, blur.

[stoutstien]

You left out the primary Bladesinger benefit of +INT to AC during the bladesong. If you want to melee frontliner a wizard, bladesingers are better at it than war wizards - but I should stress that battlesmith fundamentally doesn't force you into melee if you don't want to. Your defender has no ranged output, but you sure can.

The clear-cut answer is Bladesinger, so you can be AC 22 before your magic items dial it up even higher. A standard Artificer at high levels is base AC 19 (from +2 armor) + 3 (+1 shield) + cloak of protection + ring of protection = 24, 25 if an armorer or a warforged, 26 if both. That's 26-28 as a War Mage, and only against one attack - War Mage +2 isn't on until your next turn, unlike Shield. With a bladesinger dip your AC is 24 (+2 armor) + cloak + ring = 26, 27 if a warforged. AC 26-27 (31-32 during a Shield reaction) against all incoming attacks is patently absurd. You can get your AC even higher - the Defense fighting style and the Dual Wielder feat will both stack - but they're comparatively expensive for their benefit. Still, just to emphasize, if you burned a pair of feats on that (to avoid any discussion of more dips), and you were a warforged, that's AC 29. At AC 29, a Tarrasque has a 55% chance to hit you - and if he does, you can Shield, and unlike a War Mage's +2, Shield will stay up for the entire multiattack. At AC 34, the Tarrasque has a 30% chance of hitting you. That's without accounting for the defender defending you (which is as good as blur, but only against one attack, and you have to decide before the Tarrasque rolls) or defensive spells like mirror image (mirror image is particularly good on a melee mage with Sentinel, since when an image gets stabbed you get to stab) and, well, blur.

The int to AC is mostly a wash. Can't use shields and are limited to light armor means you are more MaD to reach that 22 AC. Once you factor in multi-classing you won't see a higher AC until med game and still have to use your bonus action to activate it which is big chunk of action economy every encounter. BS is a strong wizard but as a dip lower than 6 levels it's hard leverage without good rolled stats.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

If dipping, War Wizard is an option for getting quick bonus to defense. There is also something to be said about the Divination School's Portent ability. Since your going to be swinging a weapon around replacing a bad roll with a better one is just as equally useful.

[quindraco]

The int to AC is mostly a wash. Can't use shields and are limited to light armor means you are more MaD to reach that 22 AC. Once you factor in multi-classing you won't see a higher AC until med game and still have to use your bonus action to activate it which is big chunk of action economy every encounter. BS is a strong wizard but as a dip lower than 6 levels it's hard leverage without good rolled stats.

1 bonus action on your first round is a tax plenty of PCs pay for their utility, I don't think it's that bad. You're right about the MAD issue, but you can wear medium armor if your dex or int needs time to catch up to your other stat, depending on your build (most likely, of course, you'll focus on int and just be a battlesmith). That said, I think the build will work just fine with 14 CON, so it's not as MAD as it might appear.

The other options for handling the issue are half-elf or mountain dwarf, as always for anything MAD, and in this particular case, tortle, as a tortle battlesmith/bladesinger can be DEX 8 STR 8 and hit like a truck. Where tortle artificers will struggle a bit late-game is that infused armor shenanigans (namely +2 studded leather) don't synergise well with them. If you know up front that you're campaigning in a specific tier or set of tiers, you can definitely tailor your choices to that tier.

[Dork_Forge]

1 bonus action on your first round is a tax plenty of PCs pay for their utility, I don't think it's that bad. You're right about the MAD issue, but you can wear medium armor if your dex or int needs time to catch up to your other stat, depending on your build (most likely, of course, you'll focus on int and just be a battlesmith). That said, I think the build will work just fine with 14 CON, so it's not as MAD as it might appear.

The other options for handling the issue are half-elf or mountain dwarf, as always for anything MAD, and in this particular case, tortle, as a tortle battlesmith/bladesinger can be DEX 8 STR 8 and hit like a truck. Where tortle artificers will struggle a bit late-game is that infused armor shenanigans (namely +2 studded leather) don't synergise well with them. If you know up front that you're campaigning in a specific tier or set of tiers, you can definitely tailor your choices to that tier.

The Battle Smith has the SD to command, so that bonus action is a round the Steel Defender isn't attacking or Helping, that's a pretty significant tax in comparison to most PCs.

Otherwise I'm not sure I understand here, you say you can just wear medium armor until your other stat catches up, but if you do that you can't Bladesing... so what's the point of dipping then? You're also giving up the AC of a shield (which can be infused to be +1) so it's a much, much harder sell for that to be worth it unless you rolled exceptionally good stats.

Any standard Battle Smith is going to trend towards AC 18+ if they don't mind Half Plate and easily 20+ if they go sword and board (which they have strong incentive to do, even as a ranged character).

[Theodoxus]

I've thought about the armor issue with a BS/BS build. You're probably not bladesinging every encounter (especially during the lower levels before the build actually shines at 9+. You'll have 3 bladesongs when you get the archetype (assuming your first 3 levels were Artificer, for Con prof and getting infusions/SD asap). On a decent adventuring day, that's half the encounters where you don't have the 'song to fall back on.

One Infusion you could get is the common magic item "Cast-Off Armor". Now, it's not nearly as impressive on medium armor as heavy, but it still does the trick (especially if you find a magical suit of half-plate!) Any encounter you plan to use your 'song, you use your action to Cast-off your armor and BA command your SD to get into melee range. Second round, cast Mage Armor and BA Bladesinging, using your free item interaction to drop your shield, running into combat.

Any encounter where you don't plan to sing, you keep your medium armor, your enchanted shield and play the armored wizard role.

Yeah, it kinda sucks crawling back into your armor after combat, but that tends to get handwaved anyway, unless it's back to back - but you're still rocking MA anyway, and probably have another use or two of 'song if things go south quick.

[kore]

The Battle Smith has the SD to command, so that bonus action is a round the Steel Defender isn't attacking or Helping, that's a pretty significant tax in comparison to most PCs.

Otherwise I'm not sure I understand here, you say you can just wear medium armor until your other stat catches up, but if you do that you can't Bladesing... so what's the point of dipping then? You're also giving up the AC of a shield (which can be infused to be +1) so it's a much, much harder sell for that to be worth it unless you rolled exceptionally good stats.

Any standard Battle Smith is going to trend towards AC 18+ if they don't mind Half Plate and easily 20+ if they go sword and board (which they have strong incentive to do, even as a ranged character).

The general focus of this thread on AC is a bit 1-dimensional too; I realize that's why the OP started the thread. Putting so much effort into just this one thing is a bit short-sighted. I've multiclassed every 5e character I've played except my Battle Smith. Everything is just so good and flexible that you're hurting yourself delaying its features.

[kore]

One Infusion you could get is the common magic item "Cast-Off Armor".

I'll take this opportunity to point out the L10 feature. XGtE has a robust set of rules for magic item crafting and I recommend working with one's DM to make use of the feature to create actual, permanent items.

[Dork_Forge]

The general focus of this thread on AC is a bit 1-dimensional too; I realize that's why the OP started the thread. Putting so much effort into just this one thing is a bit short-sighted. I've multiclassed every 5e character I've played except my Battle Smith. Everything is just so good and flexible that you're hurting yourself delaying its features.

Dipping into Bladesinger yields a few things, I'll mark how relevant they are:

-light armor prof redundant

-one martial weapon prof redundant

-an AC bump

-a speed bump

-a concentration buff

So it's only really the benefits of Bladesong you're getting (remember the OP was deciding between Bladesinger and War Wizard, so the general Wizard benefits are moot), which means you have to give up a shield, give up medium armor, give up two hand requiring weapons and a bonus action. The AC losses you've made mean that you need to be super MAD to actually have a compromable AC, instead of just downgrading yourself, so you're really just getting a speed bump and concnetration buff... which just isn't worth it.

[Silpharon]

I'm of the opinion that you should go War, Divination, or Chronurgy. For Divination, the Portent is less important for attacks, and more important for forcing failed saving throws by your opponent (either your spells or someone else in the party). Chronurgy sits between War and Divination, if your DM allows it.

Bladesinger would not make sense unless you are guaranteed access to a Medium/Large Barrier Tattoo. Otherwise it's just too MAD.

Do you have a sense for when you'd want to dip? After 5 or 11/12 may make the most sense. If you can hold off until the latter split you may be better off. Flash of genius, Arcane jolt (use it to heal!), Winged boots@10, and spell storing item (Warding bond with SD) are all top class features. I'm similarly struggling to figure out when/how to multiclass my Armorer.