What are the best class options for a melee weapon/ranged weapon build?

[Tekrow]

Hi, so, what classes and subclasses would be best for a character that uses melee weapons(Short swords, rapiers) and ranged weapons(longbows, crossbows) somewhat equally effective. I know that one of the two weapons will end up being more effective than the other, but I'm looking for the class that can be the most effective with both.

[quindraco]

Hi, so, what classes and subclasses would be best for a character that uses melee weapons(Short swords, rapiers) and ranged weapons(longbows, crossbows) somewhat equally effective. I know that one of the two weapons will end up being more effective than the other, but I'm looking for the class that can be the most effective with both.

All four of those weapons use dexterity, so you could build a fighter (e.g. a battlemaster) around all four at once, or a rogue. Certain other classes will also use all four the same way - for example, artificer battlesmiths and hexblade warlocks with the right invocations.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hi, so, what classes and subclasses would be best for a character that uses melee weapons(Short swords, rapiers) and ranged weapons(longbows, crossbows) somewhat equally effective. I know that one of the two weapons will end up being more effective than the other, but I'm looking for the class that can be the most effective with both.

Off the top of my head:

Kensei Monks
Sun Soul Monks
Any Ranger
Ancestral Guardian Barbarians
Battle master Fighters
Samurai Fighters
Hexblade Warlocks
Scout Rogues
Arcane Trickster Rogues

There are probably more, but those are most of what you'd be looking at. None of them are "best" at it, they mostly have different goals when using each.

For instance, a kensei can sacrifice damage & defense for mobility & kiting by switching to range. However, an AG can completely nullify the threat of a single enemy by using range, but can instead engage in melee to defend his team from multiple threats (at the cost of him being focused more).

[Eldariel]

Hi, so, what classes and subclasses would be best for a character that uses melee weapons(Short swords, rapiers) and ranged weapons(longbows, crossbows) somewhat equally effective. I know that one of the two weapons will end up being more effective than the other, but I'm looking for the class that can be the most effective with both.

Well, Bladesinger is a great one. I built a switch-hitter Bladesinger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628446-Best-race-for-Bladesinger-post-tasha-s&p=24966950#post24966950) that works great at range and melee alike. Basically the trick is that it invests very little in either: one ASI goes into Sharpshooter since it does so darn many things and simply makes your ranged combat massively better (increased range from 150' to 600', ignoring all cover, significant damage increase), but the other goes into Elven Accuracy which works for both - and as a Wizard you have a lot of ways to generate advantage on attacks (Familiar, any kind of illusion/concealment, Shadow Blade, Haste action Hide, Greater Invisibility, Tenser's Transformation, etc.) so you can rely on getting value out of fit.

The best part is, you have reasons to use both. Archery is great because at range you don't really need Bladesong so it conserves resources: you only have up to Proficiency Bladesongs per day (in a pinch you can Bladesong at range after your full attack: you'll spend one Bladesong per turn this way but it gets you the defensive benefits including Song of Defense for that one round so it can be worth it). It also enables you to operate at range. But at short ranges? Your one- or two-weapon melee fighting is certainly comparable especially since you get to slot in Booming Blade too, and combines with Bladesong giving you a defensive buff. And the best part? It doesn't take any resources for you to be good at it, other than maybe a relevant spell known (Shadow Blade is really good and you can off-hand a Short Sword with it). It's also one of the more TWF-friendly builds since after Bladesong and Shadow Blade are active, you can use your bonus action to take off-hand attacks. And when not using Shadow Blade, you can even use a rapier.


The only weapon out of your list that doesn't really fit in is Crossbows and that's because it would take yet another feat (Crossbow Expert) to make Crossbows good and at that point of investment fighting with Hand Crossbow at short range and Longbow at long range is generally gonna be optimal (3 hits with Hand Crossbow that works with Bladesong, 2 with Longbow at 120'+ ranges) though, of course, you do get Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade with melee weapons, which is not nothing (also the ability to take OAs, especially if you get to War Caster eventually but if you took Crossbow Expert too, that would be level 16). But generally it's not enough to make up for lacking a two-feat investment.

[Tekrow]

Thanks for the replies so far. From those classes, which ones would be able to deal the most damage from both types?

The classes I was considering were either a Kensai Monk or Gloomstalker ranger, but the Warlock and the Bladesinger sound interesting.
EDIT: Also, in case I didn't explain myself properly, the character doesn't have to use both bows and crossbows, just one or the other haha.

[LudicSavant]

Hi, so, what classes and subclasses would be best for a character that uses melee weapons(Short swords, rapiers) and ranged weapons(longbows, crossbows) somewhat equally effective. I know that one of the two weapons will end up being more effective than the other, but I'm looking for the class that can be the most effective with both.

Hexbow (e.g. a Hexblade / Pact of the Blade build focusing on archering) is not only one of the best archers around... it also casually switch-hits, especially if you take the "Elven Accuracy + Max Cha first" build route (in which case you don't have any bow-specific feats until level 12).

Hex Warrior lets you use Charisma with one weapon PLUS anything you summon as your Pact of the Blade weapon, so you can have a backup that you can Booming Blade with whenever you feel like it (or when enemies close to melee range and you don't wanna fire with Disadvantage, and you wanna threaten OAs). Our hexbow player (who has played that from Tier 1 to Tier 4, of course) switches on a semi-regular basis, not because they intended to be anything other than an archery specialist, but just because it was something they just happen to be able to do as a side effect of the stuff Hexbows already take.

Another benefit of Hex Warrior is that it doesn't really care what weapon you're pulling out. Want to switch between a maul (normally str-based) and a bow (normally dex-based), and use both of them with triple advantage Elven Accuracy? You can do that.


From those classes, which ones would be able to deal the most damage from both types?

Hexbow damage gets way up there to Battle Master / Samurai Sharpshooter level (or even more), but unlike those can also bring the AoE damage.

Things like Sun Souls and Ancestral Guardians will not be dishing out nearly as much, if damage is what you're looking for.

[nickl_2000]

Personally I would go with any High or Wood Elf Monk with Tasha's in there. Since you are an Elf, you get proficiency in Longbow and can make that a Monk Weapon for you. Then you run either a Spear or Staff as your other weapon, which is already a Monk Weapon.

The biggest problem that I have with someone who switches between a Bow and a Melee Weapon is that you need Dex for both. So, therefore it makes sense to use a weapon and bow when you are engaging in melee. If you are switching in the middle of combat you either need to don or doff the shield which takes a full action. In most combats, where it takes a total of 3-5 rounds losing 1 action is a major issue. So, you are more efficient if you are using a two handed weapon (double bladed scimitar with the feat is the only finesse two handed weapon that I can think of) or playing a class that doesn't get shields.


There is one option that hasn't been mentioned here that's a bit different. You either go with the Ranger Druid Cantrip fighting style or Magic Initiate Druid at level 1 for a VHuman and take both Magic Stone and Shillelagh. Now, as a bonus action you can create a 60 ft thrown weapon that keys off of Wisdom and have a staff that does 1d8+wis damage. Either way, you can wield it will a shield in the other hand and have a good AC with medium armor.

[LudicSavant]

Basically any character that can use the same stat for melee and ranged (usually Dex) is going to be able to switch-hit. So the main question is "who needs the specialization feats, like Sharpshooter, least?"

Well, the higher your "damage-per-hit" the less you benefit from something like Sharpshooter (since you risk more damage from the -5 accuracy penalty, relative to the amount you gain from the +10). This is why I bring up the Hexblade as an example: Things like Hex and Hexblade's Curse, not to mention how much you benefit from just bumping Charisma, means that Sharpshooter is less essential to having a strong archer. The same principle applies to GWM. Likewise, you don't need any specialization feats like PAM / spear-and-board for them to be good with one-handed weapons, they already have good bonus actions and reactions to use.

Kensei got some pretty good buffs post-Tasha's, but archer kensei do lean on Sharpshooter synergy. However, they still like to use melee Monk Weapons for their Stunning Blows.

Fighter archers might still be able to mess you up with a rapier, but they pretty much always want to grab Sharpshooter or CBE ASAP. And once a Fighter has Sharpshooter, they basically never want to attack without Sharpshooter. Yes, these characters aren't terrible with a Dex-based melee weapon, but the only incentive they might ever have to use one is "I don't have CBE or Gunner yet and am stuck with Disadvantage in melee range."

Thinking a bit off the beaten path a bit, Dex-based Paladins might actually be a decent candidate here. They have their own bonus actions/reactions and added damage buffs going (like Hunter's Mark). Though of course the Paladin will want to have a melee weapon when they want to go all smitey, they won't always wanna burn those resources (and eventually they'll run out of them, anywho), and a bow is a genuinely useful sidearm for them to use when out of range, or if they want to position their aura somewhere that isn't right next to whatever they want to attack.

Then you're just stuck with the conundrum that you can't casually switch between shield/rapier style (since it takes an action to don/doff), but that's actually fine for Paladins because they actually work pretty well with TWF (unlike most other martials), since compared to, say, Fighters, they care a lot less about their base damage and more about getting a delivery system for their buffs (like Hunter's Mark) and smites, and they also care more about saving space on feats/ASIs. Revenant Blade is also very good for Dexadins, and means they both A) won't be using a shield and B) will be advancing their Dexterity faster since it's a half-feat (and therefore, advancing their ranged and melee capabilities with one feat).

They aren't going to be out-DPR-ing a Sharpshooter Fighter or Hexbow with their bows or anything, but they will have natural reasons to use one as a solid switch-in sidearm without going out of their way (and thus, still be an optimized build, like this one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938)).

Ironically, the martials that are best with TWF are the ones without the TWF Fighting Style (Rogues/Paladins/Barbarians).

[x3n0n]

Want to switch between a maul (normally str-based) and a bow (normally dex-based), and use both of them with triple advantage Elven Accuracy? You can do that.

Am I missing something? I thought the double-Hex-Warrior loophole (which I had never read as additive--thanks for highlighting that!) required one of them to be a one-handed melee weapon.

[LudicSavant]

Am I missing something? I thought the double-Hex-Warrior loophole (which I had never read as additive--thanks for highlighting that!) required one of them to be a one-handed melee weapon.

It just requires that it lacks the "two-handed" property, like a hand crossbow or pistol.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for the replies so far. From those classes, which ones would be able to deal the most damage from both types?

The classes I was considering were either a Kensai Monk or Gloomstalker ranger, but the Warlock and the Bladesinger sound interesting.
EDIT: Also, in case I didn't explain myself properly, the character doesn't have to use both bows and crossbows, just one or the other haha.

The best damage depends on level. All of these options are pretty good damage dealers though.

Ludic can make the case for Hexbow better than I can; I've never seen one played to an extremely high level. My biggest hang-up with most Warlock chasses is them lacking relative spell slots until level 11 but this can of course be made work with proper management and focus on high duration effects as well as relatively frequent short resting.

Kensei Monk is fine. With Ki-Fueled Attack it works pretty well, really picking up around level 5-6. The issue is of course it lacks versatility compared to the alternatives: its basic 4d8+Dex x3 and Stunning Strike in melee is a solid setup but that's pretty much all it does. Eventually you do get Sharpen the Blade and can add a bit of damage with Ki but ultimately it's basically simple numbers aside from Stunning Strike. It's fine overall, competitive with other options damage-wise as long as your resources last (they last for about two encounters per short rest on level 5-6 where the build picks up speed) and with the mobility of a Monk. I don't find it necessarily exciting but it does exactly what it says on the tin.

Bladesinger is pretty sweet. Damage-wise, getting to hit with BB + extra attack in melee is pretty sweet and being a full Wizard is incomparably great, especially as you get higher up. Key spells include Shield/Absorb Elements/Counterspell, Shadow Blade, Haste, Spirit Shroud & Tenser's. Spirit Shroud is fine if you want to make use of Two-Weapon Fighting and have magic items: otherwise you generally should default to Shadow Blade for melee purposes. Haste is obviously the go-to for ranged combat since it actually works there. Your defenses are without equal, especially if you get rolled stats (compared to other options, Bladesinger benefits incomparably much of high attributes but it's of course fine with point buy too): you naturally switch-hit to use Bladesong when in melee and just a Concentration spell when at range. On level 13+ Wizard is obviously without equal since you get Simulacrum which lets you buffstack. I ran the numbers and a Bladesinger 13 can kill a Pit Fiend in a ranged duel with Tenser's + Haste. Obviously it's also pretty solid in melee (though vs. Pit Fiend specifically, melee has problems with the DC21 Wis save).

The fact that Wizard has so many ways to generate advantage to go with Elven Accuracy makes it pretty nice. Obviously it has a harder time maxing out stats: you get to start with 16 Dex, 17 Int (or 17 Dex, 16 Int) and then 15-16 Con but your ASIs will be spent on EA (18 Int or Dex) and then Sharpshooter. With EA, you can make do with 16 attack stat. Magic Jar does alleviate this somewhat if you can score a high Dex form on level 11. Obviously, the biggest advantage is the ability to use cantrips with attack actions (good for not only Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade for melee damage but Minor Illusion/Mold Earth for ranged cover/concealment for advantage). Compared to options this often takes a turn of lesser contribution in the start of the fight to buff but then begins delivering more than solid damage. It's worth noting that Song of Defense comboes nicely with Tenser's, giving you a decent defensive reaction to use when you can't cast spells. It's not perfect by any means but it works: this is because Tenser's is numerically the strongest straight non-form-changing combat buff in the game so in spite of the drawback you do want the option to use it, especially since unlike many buffs, it works extremely well at range.


I'd say Hexblade, Bladesinger and Gloomstalker have the best early options (each for different reasons: Bladesinger draws on the familiar and Bladesong with Shadow Blade on 3, while Hexblade has solid proficiencies and Hexblade's Curse and invocations and Gloomstalker 3 gets the darkvision immunity and thus advantageous attacks in anything that forces enemies to rely on darkvision but it's definitely more of an archer than a switch-hitter) with Kensei picking up speed in Tier 2 (to come about on par with the others). Kensei probably does the highest resource damage at range in Tier 2 but the difference isn't very big over Bladesinger or Gloomstalker and Hexblade always has that one target per short rest that they can absolutely murder and solid constant damage with Hex + attacks. Hexblade and Bladesinger pick up speed on Tier 3 while Kensei and Gloomstalker kinda stagnate (Gloomstalker less so).

Honestly, I'd pick between the two full casters and I personally lean towards Bladesinger in spite of the single-attribute advantage of Hexblade but any of the choices is certainly more than fine. Mostly because picking up Sharpshooter as a Bladesinger just does so much for the range you can operate at: I like having the bow for reliable 600' murderizing. Wizard is uniquely able to make use of that range thanks to their innate mobility from an array of options (Haste, Phantom Steed, etc.).

[x3n0n]

It just requires that it lacks the "two-handed" property, like a hand crossbow or pistol.

Ok, I think that's what I'm missing; I thought we were talking about someone taking their ranged weapon from Improved Pact Weapon (so that they can use Thirsting Blade to get multiple attacks) and taking their melee weapon from vanilla Hex Warrior, since it can fall back on the bladetrips to make its single attack more effective.

I might still be missing something. :)

[LudicSavant]

Ok, I think that's what I'm missing; I thought we were talking about someone taking their ranged weapon from Improved Pact Weapon (so that they can use Thirsting Blade to get multiple attacks) and taking their melee weapon from vanilla Hex Warrior, since it can fall back on the bladetrips to make its single attack more effective.

I might still be missing something. :)

Huh, I somehow forgot that Thirsting Blade only applies to your Pact Weapon -- possibly because our latest Hexbow we played a Tier 1 to Tier 4 game with liked to do the Hex Warrior swap at low levels, and got a shapeshifting magic weapon somewhere in Tier 2. That does put a bit of a damper on the weapon versatility, though of course using your Hex Warrior weapon for Booming Blade to avoid Disadvantage in melee range remains an option.

So yeah, at 3 and 4 you might casually swap between a Hex Warrior warhammer and Pact Weapon longbow, but at 5+ it becomes a more situational thing, due not to the limits of Hex Warrior or your pact weapon, but of the Thirsting Blade invocation! Until level 12, you would still have the option of manifesting a new pact weapon between encounters, swapping between bow and sword-and-board with equal proficiency, but you wouldn't be able to do so mid-battle since it takes an Action to manifest your Pact Weapon. But when it comes to the Hex Warrior weapon, you'd want to stick to Booming Blade.

So yeah, I should have said "a warhammer held in two hands" instead of a maul (while technically possible, it's not as practical).

Good catch! :smallsmile:

[Ir0ns0ul]

For the sake of simplicity, besides all fancy options you could leverage by being a Hexblade or just a regular DEX Fighter / Ranger, I would say that Rogue is a very good class to keep in mind.

Your main source of damage applies to both melee/ranged as long as you meet the requirements for Sneak Attack and Cunning Action supports a lot both options; want to snipe someone? Hide. Hit and run tactics? Disengage. Kiting like a Hello Kitty eating a Kit-Kat? just Dash.

Simple and effective.

[Tekrow]

Thank you guys for the replies and help! From what I can see, the Hexblade/bow is amazing overall, althought not as able to seamlessly change weapons, while the bladesinger does some solid damage plus the whole thing about being a wizard. Also, Kensei are early game, but kinda fall off mid to late game.

[x3n0n]

Also, Kensei are early game, but kinda fall off mid to late game.

Depends where your boundaries are for early/mid/late, I think.

Levels 1-2 are rough-ish for Monks in general.

3-4, the Kensei comes partially online; you can trade off your melee offense/defense pretty effectively with Agile Parry, but you're not an exceptional archer.

Level 6 is a particular (relative) high point: you can really "abuse" Ki-Fueled Attack (with Focused Aim and Deft Strike) to get a pretty-sustainable 3 bow shots per turn.

If you don't already have the perfect magic weapons, Sharpen the Blade at 11 is potentially a big boost to your offense. (Bonus points if you have a Flame Tongue!)

All Monks make a HUGE jump in power at 14 with Diamond Soul.

Kensei's 17 Unerring Accuracy is also a big boost for weapon offense.

However, once you're around level 13, your spellcasting friends are in their prime; Kensei don't get to play that game. You also don't have the built-in per-hit damage riders that some of your teammates might: no Hex/Hunter's Mark/Divine Favor/Lifedrinker etc.

[Eldariel]

More of a bullet point comparison (damage comparison at 8 since that's when all builds get to Elven Accuracy + Sharpshooter + 18 Dex [tho Bladesinger can go 16 Dex/18 Int instead which has slightly lower numbers], having all hit their strides):

Bladesinger boons:
- Incredible damage potential at both ranged and melee
- Deep resource pool: full caster's slots + arcane recovery + full combat duration spells
- Best spells in the game: scales incredibly well to Tiers 3 and 4
- Easily able to switch between roles seamlessly
- Excels in long combats
- Lot of ways to get advantage (Minor Illusion/concealment at range, Shadow Blade, Hide from Haste, Familiar/minion Help, eventually Tenser's) - not visible in numbers below is that BS will attack with advantage way more than the others
- Has a good reason to use both roles

Bladesinger cons:
- Often first turn buff means damage only picks up on second round [Haste lets you attack once when you cast it, Tenser's + Haste from Simulacrum too, Shadow Blade and Spirit Shroud take bonus action removing the option of TWF as well as Misty Step & al.]
- Really want Sharpshooter because it enhances ranged combat so much (feat-starved)
- Relies on race: Elven Accuracy means you have to be an elf and you want elven weapon proficiencies anyways to get ranged options
- Can't really get a good bonus action attack at range without burning another feat (Kensei can)
- Multi-Attribute Dependency: You want Int for casting and AC and Concentration and Dex for attacking (eventually Magic Jar and Shapechange let you fix your Dex)

Ranged DPR value at 8 (18 Dex SS/EA with some source of Advantage and Haste) vs. AC 12/15/20: 52/45/23
Ranged DPR value at 8 (18 Dex SS and Haste) vs. AC 12/15/20: 31/23/11

Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA level 3 Shadow Blade with Advantage with two-target GFB/secondary damage BB [almost]): 52/50/42 [could also Two-Weapon Fight but that has handedness issues to keep casting open without magic items/War Caster often consuming bonus action on subsequent turns anyways]
Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA level 3 Shadow Blade with two-target GFB/secondary damage BB [almost]): 39/32/21

Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA level 3 Shadow Blade with Advantage with Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade without triggering secondary damage): 44/42/35
Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA level 3 Shadow Blade with Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade without triggering secondary damage): 33/27/17

Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA Rapier + Haste with Advantage with BB/GFB without triggering secondary damage): 32/31/26
Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA Rapier + Haste with BB/GFB without triggering secondary damage): 25/20/13

Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA Rapier + Haste with Advantage with two-target GFB/secondary damage BB [almost]): 40/39/33
Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA Rapier + Haste with two-target GFB/secondary damage BB [almost]): 31/26/16

Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA Rapier + Spirit Shroud TWF with Advantage with two-target GFB/secondary damage BB [almost]): 56/54/45
Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA Rapier + Spirit Shroud TWF with two-target GFB/secondary damage BB [almost]): 43/35/22


Kensei boons:
- Good damage spike from turn 1
- The level 5-10 spike is very solid
- Reasonable amount of short rest resources
- Innate ability to make a weapon magical (great if there are no magic weapons around)
- Has one really good trick for melee (stunning strike spam)
- Race open (Elven Accuracy isn't necessary: can go Fighting Initiate: Archery and Sharpshooter and +2 Dex for example but that's more ranged focus of course)

Kensei cons:
- Comparatively lacks utility
- Heavily resource reliant: the fight where you run out of ki you do very little (e.g. compared to a Bladesinger without spells/Bladesong who at least has cantrip attacks, familiar, potential other minions, ritual casting, etc. all day)
- The melee option is extremely resource-heavy against high Con targets
- Scales relatively poorly into Tier 3-4 (though Sharpen the Blade is decent)
- Multi-Attribute Dependency: You want Wis for Stunning Strike and AC and Dex for attacking

Ranged DPR value at 8 (18 Dex SS/EA with some source of Advantage and Ki-Fueled Attack Deft Strikes) vs. AC 12/15/20: 55/48/25
Ranged DPR value at 8 (18 Dex SS and Ki-Fueled Attack Deft Strikes) vs. AC 12/15/20: 33/24/12

Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA with some source of Advantage and Flurry) vs. AC 12/15/20: 34/33/27 + up to 4xDC14 Con vs. stun [enough ki for 1/SR]
Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA with Flurry) vs. AC 12/15/20: 26/22/14 + up to 4xDC14 Con vs. stun [enough ki for 1/SR, if stun succeeds rest are at advantage]


Gloomstalker pros:
- Great resourceless options
- A good tack-on damage option in Hunter's Mark for both
- Darkvision invisibility is really good: easy to get advantage in many cases
- Decent spell list if not quite Wizard-level (Pass without Trace, Goodberry, etc.)
- Archery fighting style makes them a solid archer
- Easily able to get by with Dex

Gloomstalker cons:
- The melee option is basically always secondary: you do more damage at better accuracy at range
- Kinda stagnates around Tier 3 (as an archer: Conjure Animals is still great but that's a totally different gameplan)
- Doesn't have a good bonus attack option at range without Crossbow Sniper (which makes you completely ranged)
- Overall does lose out in terms of DPR to resource-using equivalents

Ranged DPR value at 8 (18 Dex SS/EA with darkness-based Advantage and Hunter's Mark) vs. AC 12/15/20: 44/40/28
Ranged DPR value at 8 (18 Dex SS and Hunter's Mark) vs. AC 12/15/20: 29/23/13

Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex EA with darkness-based Advantage and Hunter's Mark) vs. AC 12/15/20: 26/25/21
Melee DPR value at 8 (18 Dex and Hunter's Mark) vs. AC 12/15/20: 20/16/10


Arcane Trickster pros:
- Solid skill chassis
- Zero resources need to be put into attacking (though Elven Accuracy is pretty darn good - surprise, surprise)
- Decent if slow utility casting
- Innate access to Shadow Blade, Booming Blade, etc.
- Incredibly reliable Advantage between bonus action Hide, familiar and Shadow Blade
- Has really nasty OAs

Arcane Trickster cons:
- Slow damage scaling comparatively
- Can't really use Sharpshooter efficiently
- Lacks comparable resource options to really improve offense (though Haste on 13 does double Sneak Attack if used with readied actions)
- Low on spell slots, can't upcast buffs
- Particularly lacks options to improve ranged combat (Haste helps eventually)

Ranged DPR value at 8 (20 Dex EA with hiding-based Advantage) vs. AC 12/15/20: 26/22/20
Ranged DPR value at 8 (20 Dex) vs. AC 12/15/20: 21/17/12

Melee DPR value at 8 (20 Dex EA with Advantage and Shadow Blade + BB/GFB without secondary) vs. AC 12/15/20: 47/46/40
Melee DPR value at 8 (20 Dex and Shadow Blade + BB/GFB without secondary) vs. AC 12/15/20: 37/31/21

Melee DPR value at 8 (20 Dex EA with Advantage and Shadow Blade + BB/GFB with secondary) vs. AC 12/15/20: 36/36/31
Melee DPR value at 8 (20 Dex and Shadow Blade + BB/GFB with secondary) vs. AC 12/15/20: 29/24/16


TL;DR:
- Kensei has best Tier 2 ranged nova damage but especially melee is highly resource intensive.
- Bladesinger has best sustained damage and great damage from R2 onwards and best melee nova damage (but R1 might be partially spent buffing depending on encounter structure).
- Gloomstalker and Arcane Trickster are fairly similar, with Gloomstalker being a good archer but at best decent in melee while Arcane Trickster is good in melee but at best decent at range.
- Bladesinger is the only one of these that actively wants to switch between melee and range.
- Bladesinger scales the best and has the most tactical versatility.
- Gloomstalker kinda switches roles in Tier 3 to a little more castery direction, getting minionmancy and "AOE arrows".
- Arcane Trickster gets a huge power spike on level 13 but nothing compared to Bladesinger.
- Bladesinger and Arcane Trickster are totally in their own league WRT ability to generate Advantage.
- Kensei has a notable edge in archery if magic item aren't in play with the innate Concentration-free ability to make the weapon magical (Bladesinger can do it but it costs Concentration).

[RogueJK]

To take it even a step further, a Bladesinger with Crossbow Expert and Warcaster wouldn't even have to draw/sheathe/drop any weapons to switch between a ranged and melee weapon, and could even do both in the same turn. They could wield a Hand Crossbow in one hand and a Rapier in the other, and do Hand Crossbow + Booming Blade Rapier + BA Hand Crossbow (or Rapier + Booming Blade Rapier + BA Hand Crossbow).

In fact, any character with Crossbow Expert could do Rapier Attack + BA Hand Crossbow Attack, even getting additional attacks if they have Extra Attack. You'd miss out on the extra BB damage from the Bladesinger's cantrip substitution but also wouldn't need to take Warcaster. Could be a potentially fun build for something like a DEX-based Battlemaster, perhaps taking Defensive Duelist in place of Warcaster. Sort of a pirate-style "cutlass and pistol" build. Sharpshooter would be highly recommended, for added hand crossbow range and potential extra damage at times.

[x3n0n]

To take it even a step further, a Bladesinger with Crossbow Expert and Warcaster wouldn't even have to draw/sheate/drop any weapons to switch between the two, and could even do both in the same turn. They could wield a Hand Crossbow in one hand and a Rapier in the other, and do Hand Crossbow + Booming Blade Rapier + BA Hand Crossbow (or Rapier + Booming Blade Rapier + BA Hand Crossbow).

In fact, any character with more than 1 attack could do the same, only without the cantrip substitution for extra damage like a Bladesinger but also without the need to take Warcaster. Could be a potentially fun build for something like a DEX-based Battlemaster, taking Defensive Duelist in place of Warcaster. Sort of a pirate-style "cutlass and pistol" build.

I don't see a way to reload the hand crossbow between action and bonus action; am I missing it? (It is fun that the combo of Extra Attack and Crossbow Expert technically circumvents the traditional TWF restriction that both weapons need to be light.)

[RogueJK]

The XBE feat allows you to ignore the Loading property. You can fire it more than once per turn.

[Eldariel]

The XBE feat allows you to ignore the Loading property. You no longer require a free hand to reload your crossbow, and you can fire it more than once per turn.

It allows you to ignore Loading but not Ammunition, which the Crossbows also have and Ammunition is the one that requires the free hand for reloading (sadly). Ultimately, XBE goes pretty well on a Bladesinger but the class is pretty feat-starved to start with and XBE makes you pretty poorly inclined to fight in melee (handedness is the main issue - you generally just Hand Crossbow up to 120' and then Longbow up to 600' with potentially Heavy Crossbowing in-between).

[RogueJK]

Well, it's still doable, with a bit more suspension of disbelief:

Stab with rapier
Fire hand crossbow
Drop rapier (no action)
Reload hand crossbow and fire again
Pick up rapier (free object interaction)
End turn

(Or better yet, let go of the rapier, and load/fire the crossbow so rapidly that you can snatch the rapier out of midair before it hits the ground. :smallbiggrin:)

Subsequent turns:
Stab with rapier 2x
Drop rapier
Load and fire hand crossbow
Pick up rapier
End turn


Or just have a bandoleer of loaded hand crossbows at the ready, dropping each one as you expend them, like a true pirate.

Or just ask your DM to handwave it, like many do with the "drop weapon/cast spell/pick up weapon" somatic spell component schtick.

[Frogreaver]

The XBE feat allows you to ignore the Loading property. You can fire it more than once per turn.

It’s not the firing. It’s that you can’t load it to fire it without a free hand.

[Man_Over_Game]

Seems kinda silly to use weapon feats on a class that already gets scaling cantrips.

Sure, the damage isn't exactly competitive against scaling weapon damage, but the difference is only like 30% and it's not like you're going to be spamming the Attack Action when you have a bunch of leveled spells to throw each turn.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the value, it just seems like you could get more mileage out of something that enhances your other abilities than increasing your final damage output by ~10%.

[Eldariel]

Seems kinda silly to use weapon feats on a class that already gets scaling cantrips.

Sure, the damage isn't exactly competitive against scaling weapon damage, but the difference is only like 30% and it's not like you're going to be spamming the Attack Action when you have a bunch of leveled spells to throw each turn.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the value, it just seems like you could get more mileage out of something that enhances your other abilities than increasing your final damage output by ~10%.

Mhm, that's why I like SS: it extends your effective range from 120' (most long range spells) to 600'. On a class with as much scouting and mobility as a Wizard, that can be hugely valuable, and it's something Wizard has a lot of difficulty being efficient at otherwise. It's doubly nice when the class so excels at generating advantage.

That's also why I don't especially love XBE Bladesingers though I do see the value in making use of that errant bonus action: it enhances you at something you can already do with reasonable efficiency. At that point I do generally lean towards War Caster/Alert/Lucky/+2 Int. Of course, if the campaign takes place indoors or at short ranges, SS isn't that important and you are probably better off with something else. But SS does have 3 very potent abilities that are all relevant; cover ignoring lets you use e.g. Mold Earth to build Improved Cover for long range fighting and just lets you shoot more freely, while 4x range is the main draw and +40% damage obviously doesn't hurt either.

[Tekrow]

Thank you all for the in depth help, I really appreciate. You are all so helpful and nice haha. From what I can see, I think the ones that I would enjoy the most are either the Bladsinger(due to the sheer amount of utility being a wizard brings) or Hexblade(I have a weakness for charisma based classes).

[stoutstien]

Have to toss battlesmith in the ring for a turn key switch hitter. Being able to use one stat for attack and damage with any magic weapon, which you can move around everyday, makes for a solid platform for it. SaD enough to grab both SS and GWM if they really wanted.

[Nefariis]

Am I understanding this right?


Bladesinger Extra Attack
Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

Soooo......

Bladesinger 6 / Hexblade 3 (Agonizing Blast) / fighter 2 (action surge)
Feats: CBE/SS
CHA: +4

With Haste and Action Surge, the attacks would look like this -

Attack Action:
1. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14
2. 3 Eldritch Blasts 3d10 + 12

Action Surge:
3. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14
4. 3 Eldritch Blasts 3d10 + 12

Bonus Action (CBE)
5. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14

Haste
6. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14

4d6 + 6d10 + 80 = 127

That looks ridiculous

*Edit*

I forgot Hexblade's curse, so i guess add another 40 damage (10 attacks * 4 PB)?

[Eldariel]

Am I understanding this right?


Soooo......

Bladesinger 6 / Hexblade 3 (Agonizing Blast) / fighter 2 (action surge)
Feats: CBE/SS
CHA: +4

With Haste and Action Surge, the attacks would look like this -

Attack Action:
1. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14
2. 3 Eldritch Blasts 3d10 + 12

Action Surge:
3. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14
4. 3 Eldritch Blasts 3d10 + 12

Bonus Action (CBE)
5. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14

Haste
6. Hand Crossbow 1d6 + 14

4d6 + 6d10 + 80 = 127

That looks ridiculous

*Edit*

I forgot Hexblade's curse, so i guess add another 40 damage (10 attacks * 4 PB)?

That's a lot of damage but remember, you're using Action Surge and Hexblade's Curse (also, HBC does drop the bonus action attack), two SR resources. That tends to do that. Even a simple CBE/SS/MI/+5 Dex Battlemaster going Tripleshot + Action Surge + Dice Dump with like Hex from a feat can do 1d6+1d8+1d10+15 x5 + 1d6+1d8+15 = 165 damage at a short rest if we ignore hit rate (we really shouldn't when talking about the power attack feats: vs. AC 20 this Battlemaster averages mere 67 damage or 96 with advantage and the Hexblade 60 normally with 98 at advantage). So fairly similar.

Replacing an attack with a cantrip is strong but Eldritch Blast isn't really that much better than competition: Bladetrips tend to come out even or better (depending on if rider gets procced) due to being able to apply attack riders. Eldritch Blast + Hexblade's Curse for 3d10+24 (average 28,5 + 12 HBC = 40,5) vs. e.g. Green-Flame Blade + Spirit Shroud V Short Sword attack for 1d6+5d8+4 + 2d8+3 (average 42) or BB + Spirit Shroud 5 for 1d6+5d8+4 + 3d8 if moving (average 30 + 12,5 if moving = 42,5). You have comparable innate options though of course, the range is really nice.


Plain Bladesinger actually can do pretty well too, if we abuse Magic Jar (admittedly getting any given body is entirely campaign dependent). Like if you can score a Gloom Weaver body, you can do obscene things:

Multiattack: 1 spell + 2 attacks
Attack: +8 for 1d6 + 4d12 + 4 at +8
Add Spirit Shroud V

End result: +8 for 1d6+4d12+4+3d8 x2 = 47*2 = 92 + Booming Blade for 1d6+2d8+4d12+4+3d8 at +8 with 3d8/2d8+4 rider = 56 + 13,5 rider. Total: 148 + 13,5 rider. 74 DPR vs. AC 20, or 145 with Advantage.

Unlike Action Surge options, this is doable for every round of an entire fight and you have 3 Spirit Shroud Vs. And this is without using TWF, which could add another 1d6+3d8 for another ~17 damage (after R1 where you need the bonus action to cast Spirit Shroud).

Of course, you could instead replace the attack with an actual leveled spell like Scorching Ray VI for 7 attacks at 2d6+3d8 for 120/260 DPR vs. AC 20, provided Spirit Shroud was cast last round.


For a more grounded comparison, a simple base EA/SS Bladesinger using Longbow with Tenser's: 41 DPR vs. AC 20 (always at advantage), which actually isn't far off from the Hexblade nova numbers above without advantage (advantage is baked into Tenser's so it's not that rare to get advantage on it but not otherwise). If you went CBE [level 12], you could actually get to the same 60 DPR as non-Advantage Nova Hexblade. Of course, I don't necessarily advocate this but it works. Haste from Simulacrum on 13 would accomplish the same and stacked with the +1 proficiency increase, they would push you to 81 DPR vs. AC 20.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I like the combination o e of my players played from level 1 to 20
Ranger(gloomstalker)/warlock(Hexblade)/fighter(Samurai, changed to battlemaster after he found out that his party is an advantage generator).

He used ranger for the extra attack on the first turn and extra movement.
He used warlock for Hexblade curse and shield spell.
He used fighter for an action surge on the first turn to get the extra attack the gloomstalker gave him two times in a fight.

He mostly used a bow but had some use from his rapier.
He used Hunter's mark and Zephyr Strike most of the time.
Good berry for healing.


Edit.
It was ranger 3, warlock 1, Fighter 11, Warlock untill 20 if I remember correctly.

[RogueJK]

I like the combination o e of my players played from level 1 to 20
Ranger(gloomstalker)/warlock(Hexblade)/fighter(Samurai, changed to battlemaster after he found out that his party is an advantage generator).

It was ranger 3, warlock 1, Fighter 11, Warlock untill 20 if I remember correctly.

Sounds like it'd be a bit of a slog to get from level 4-9ish. You're not getting an ASI until Level 8, and not getting Extra Attack until Level 9. Waiting double the usual levels for your first ASI would be a pain unless you happened to manually roll godlike stats. And being relegated to just one attack in every round (but the first) really hurts on someone primarily focused on weapon attacks, without some other way to add significant damage to a single attack like a Rogue. Even Hunter's Mark doesn't help much, if only applied to one attack. Gloomstalker's extra attack at the start of combat does help lessen the blow, though.

It's generally best to avoid delaying Extra Attack or 3rd level spells when multiclassing, at least beyond one level or so. These Level 5 abilities are a big step up in character capability, and if you delay those you're going to be noticeably behind the curve in Tier 2 combat.

Were I looking to build that combo, I'd probably go something like Warlock 1 -> Fighter 5/Warlock 1 -> Fighter 5/Warlock 1/Ranger 3 -> Fighter 11/Warlock 1/Ranger 3. This gets you Extra Attack nearly on schedule at Level 6, and ASIs nearly on schedule at Levels 5/10/12. (And you could even delay taking the Warlock level until after Fighter 5, if you want the first ASI and Extra Attack exactly on schedule. Or even after Fighter 6 if you're hurting for ASIs and want to get two out of the way before getting sidetracked into Warlock and Ranger levels.)

[solidork]

Rogue is my favorite switch hitter. Simple build, satisfyingly complex decision tree for combat, works well from 1-20.

[arnin77]

Rogue is my favorite switch hitter. Simple build, satisfyingly complex decision tree for combat, works well from 1-20.

I agree; my arcane trickster is level 13 now and can attack with advantage, Elven accuracy a booming bladed shadow blade for some nice crits, or attack with a longbow.

He can also create disadvantage on saving throws for hypnotic pattern or a scroll of fireball if i need AOE

Cant comment on the rest of the classes except Ranger for a “skirmisher” build. Looks like there’s lots of good ideas out there though!