Highest at-will damage on level 7?

[Eldariel]

I'm thinking of relative value of Polymorph (turns you into Giant Ape that does a respectable 42-24 DPR to targets between 12 and 20 AC) so I was thinking, what's the absolute highest at-will damage PC one could build on level 7? Is there a PC that can, without using any resources or relying on environmental advantage, deal that level of damage? Assuming advantage only if it's an at-will ability (such as with Barbarian), not assuming advantage for the Ape. PAM/GWM Barb would be almost competitive vs. AC 12 (41 DPR) but quickly falls off against higher AC targets (only 15 vs. AC 20). This is mostly because going Barb with PAM/GWM involves no Str ASIs so the attack bonus is measly +6 and the base damage without GWM is piddly 1d10+3x2/1d4+3. There's two levels open which could take some other classes after Barb 5 - this could improve the overall DPR a bit but doesn't look sufficient to me as there are no great at-will damage increases available in 1-2 levels I can think of. Most riders you could add are tied to Rage, which isn't available.

The other option that occurred me is Bladesinger 6/Fighter 1 taking TWF style, which could TWF with two Short Swords and Booming Blade with one of them. At 18 Dex and BB and familiar granting advantage on that BB hit and Elven Accuracy, that's 29-23 DPR - so close against high AC targets but pretty far off against low AC ones. If we instead used GFB, that would add a bit, making it 43-25 but that's contingent on two adjacent enemies and thus not really reliable and outside the limitations.

There's always Fighter 6/X 1 - Crossbow Expert/SS Fighter with Archery style would go 35-14 but without an automatic source of advantage, it doesn't quite suffice. Familiar could grant advantage on one attack which could be gotten from Wizard 1. That would go 39-17. If there were a reliable way to get advantage on another attack on this build without using resources or relying on concealment, that would suffice, but while those are all available (Minor Illusion for example), they aren't automatic so not counting them here. Elven Accuracy would work too but that's level 8 earliest to get both SS and CBE (which are necessary to reach decent damage numbers anyways). This build is Vuman/CL btw, to get the +2 Dex ASI (so +9 to attack with Archery + 18 Dex + 3 Prof). Elf build would indeed be one level too young here.


So, what else am I not thinking about? Warlock's always there but it doesn't really do much without resources. 1d10+5 x2 just isn't gonna cut it: CL Fey-Touched +2 Cha 20 Cha Warlock is 22-16 so not really noteworthy. Is there anything that could be slammed on the Barb to improve those numbers? It's CL or Vuman to get two feats by 7 so there isn't much room to maneuver but there's the two levels after 5 that do nothing.

I guess Fighter could go Champion to get a bit of extra but that really doesn't add up to much with those 1d6 weapons so I'm not even gonna bother.

EDIT: My numbers were off. The Ape only does 42-24 DPR. See the last posts for corrections.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm not sure why the point of comparison is a Giant Ape for this, but if you're looking for completely no resource expenditure then the Rogue needs honourable mention, specifically the Soulknife:

V.Human (Fighting Initiate: Dueling) and a Dex bump at 4th gives you two attacks and a hefty 4d6 Sneak attack, if both hit you're looking at 5d6+1d4+12= 32 average

If qualifying for Sneak becomes an issue then Swashbuckler makes that far easier, though the potential damage is lower. You'd swap Dueling for TWF and use two short swords.


I'm not sure any at will will actually compete with a Giant Ape at 7th level, some degree of resources is tied to the vast majority of abilities and it's a CR 7 creature.

[MaxWilson]

I was thinking about maybe a Goblin Skulker Sharpshooter, to get advantage, but then you don't have a bonus attack.

I don't think I can do better than the PAM GWM Barbarian you're already highlighting. Of course the Barb will run out of HP pretty quick, long before the Ape does.

P.S. Oh, except for the obvious: a Necromancer's 18-22ish skeleton archers + Necromancer cantrips crush the ape's DPR, especially at range. There's an upfront cost but the actual attacks are at will.

Or as someone pointed out on another thread, spend 100 gp on 50 goats as a Shepherd Druid and use Persuasion and / or Deception to get them to stampede in the right direction. 200 HP and 600 temp HP of goats with 100d4+50 of damage potential...

[Eldariel]

I'm not sure why the point of comparison is a Giant Ape for this, but if you're looking for completely no resource expenditure then the Rogue needs honourable mention, specifically the Soulknife:

V.Human (Fighting Initiate: Dueling) and a Dex bump at 4th gives you two attacks and a hefty 4d6 Sneak attack, if both hit you're looking at 5d6+1d4+12= 32 average

If qualifying for Sneak becomes an issue then Swashbuckler makes that far easier, though the potential damage is lower. You'd swap Dueling for TWF and use two short swords.

Hmm, Rogue is a good point, I wonder what we could do with it. I think Elf Rogue with Elven Accuracy is better because of crits: bonus action Hide is a reliable source of advantage, as is familiar if you went Arcane Trickster instead (AT Elf could get BB SA with a Rapier for 2d8+4d6+4 at Triple Advantage for 14% crit chance, but admittedly lacking the access to a bonus action attack hurts). Elf AT would thus get 30 DPR vs. AC 12 and 24 vs. AC 20. Not bad at all.

Soulknife instead would do 30 DPR vs. AC 12 and 18 vs. AC 20 due to no advantage. If it could get advantage, 34-26. Ultimately, the Elf AT comes out a bit ahead: if we could come up with a good way to get a bonus action that does something it could get a bit better. But Rogues fall under the same category as Bladesinger with no rider from Bladetrip: solid damage but about one tier below the Power Attack builds.


I was thinking about maybe a Goblin Skulker Sharpshooter, to get advantage, but then you don't have a bonus attack.

I don't think I can do better than the PAM GWM Barbarian you're already highlighting. Of course the Barb will run out of HP pretty quick, long before the Ape does.

Indeed, the Fighter is a bit better than the Barb: bit better vs. high AC, bit worse vs. low AC but ultimately falls short.


P.S. Oh, except for the obvious: a Necromancer's 18-22ish skeleton archers + Necromancer cantrips crush the ape's DPR, especially at range. There's an upfront cost but the actual attacks are at will.

Or as someone pointed out on another thread, spend 100 gp on 50 goats as a Shepherd Druid and use Persuasion and / or Deception to get them to stampede in the right direction. 200 HP and 600 temp HP of goats with 100d4+50 of damage potential...

Mhm, indeed. Of course, since I'm mostly interested in if there is a PC whose at-will DPR would decrease by being Polymorphed, that's not really relevant since the minions would still be able to do their thing (though without the bonus action to command them, worse I guess so maybe not). Okay, so we can put Necromancer (and more broadly, anyone with lots of minions that require commanding) as someone you shouldn't Polymorph if you need DPR.

[MaxWilson]

Mhm, indeed. Of course, since I'm mostly interested in if there is a PC whose at-will DPR would decrease by being Polymorphed, that's not really relevant since the minions would still be able to do their thing (though without the bonus action to command them, worse I guess so maybe not). Okay, so we can put Necromancer (and more broadly, anyone with lots of minions that require commanding) as someone you shouldn't Polymorph if you need DPR.

Why wouldn't you want to Polymorph the Necromancer? IME Necromancers are the ideal Polymorph targets because that gives them a powerful action to go with their powerful bonus action (command minions), whereas their regular action is kind of anemic since they've already spent most of their spell slots. (Well, except that often they don't spend most of their spell slots because it breaks the game, and requires corpses. But Nexromancers do usually have SOME nice bonus action even if it's just a dozen-ish Tiny Servants.)

[Eldariel]

Why wouldn't you want to Polymorph the Necromancer? IME Necromancers are the ideal Polymorph targets because that gives them a powerful action to go with their powerful bonus action (command minions), whereas their regular action is kind of anemic since they've already spent most of their spell slots. (Well, except that often they don't spend most of their spell slots because it breaks the game, and requires corpses. But Nexromancers do usually have SOME nice bonus action even if it's just a dozen-ish Tiny Servants.)

Well, you won't want to Polymorph them under the assumption that this prevents them from commanding their undead. Though on closer inspection, that's probably not RAW. I probably wouldn't let a T-Rex command them efficiently but given its Int, a Giant Ape might just be able to.

[Mastikator]

Variant Human Hexblade with Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Improved Pact Weapon and Thirsting Blade would hit for +2 to hit, 1d10 + 17 (2 attacks) and 1d4 + 17 (bonus action), advantage and crit on 19 if using hexblade's curse. It would come out to ~64.5 if all hits land. Against AC 12 ~51 DPR, AC 15 ~41.2, AC 18 ~28.1

[Omni-Centrist]

I really like Kensei 6/Ranger 1. You have 6 ki points to spend like a battlemaster to get your SS shots to hit, and even have access to a quasi-CBE bonus action at the cost of 1 ki. The whole class feels like a yugioh deck of a few years back with the synergy.

Honorable mention to the Bladesinger 6/ Monk 1, Dealing 4d8 + (Damage Mod×3) with unarmed fighting style. Slap a haste on that boy and you got 5d8 instead.

[Eldariel]

Variant Human Hexblade with Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Improved Pact Weapon and Thirsting Blade would hit for +2 to hit, 1d10 + 17 (2 attacks) and 1d4 + 17 (bonus action), advantage and crit on 19 if using hexblade's curse. It would come out to ~64.5 if all hits land. Against AC 12 ~51 DPR, AC 15 ~41.2, AC 18 ~28.1

Sadly Hexblade's Curse is a short rest resource so it's not applicable here (plus it would take the bonus action). I'm also not entirely sure, how does this gain Advantage? We get +7 to hit for 1d10+4 with 16 Cha. Plugging those numbers in, we get: 31 DPR vs. AC 12 (45 with Advantage) to 11 DPR vs. AC 20 (18 with Advantage). There's two wasted levels; Warlock 6-7 does nothing far as I can tell (you need only two invocations here). So perhaps something could be done with those two levels? Barb 2 would let you get that Advantage if there were no other means.

It actually occurs to me, there's a way to improve the Barbarian-build too, by taking a Forge Cleric dip. This lets you enchant the weapon for +1/+1, which results in the same numbers as this Hexblade would get with Advantage. Still not quite there but 45/18 is already close at least against lower ACs (18 is admittedly quite far away from 27). Is there any other good one-level dip DPR-wise? I can't think of a fighting style that does much (GWF is just so bad), so Fighter 1 isn't it. Rogue seems hard to proc SA-wise and caster classes don't really add much at-will without the ability to use cantrips in a full attack.

[da newt]

What is a resource? Is a spell slot a resource? Casting Polymorph uses a spell slot, so I assume that doesn't count as a resource or it would not be a fair comparison.

For how many rounds? Polymorph lasts for 1 hr IF the caster who made themselves into an AC 12 Ape can keep their concentration up that whole time (because this is no resources, so single PC = the caster is the Ape and the Ape has only a +4 to CON saves). Even a lowly skeleton with a short bow will hit it more than 1/2 the time.

What is the enemy? How many are there? Will one good GWM attack splat one so you gain a BA attack?

[Valmark]

I can't find any build that reaches that damage without resource expenditure. Though tbh it's fair- a level 7 character shouldn't have the resourceless damage of a CR 7 monster (at least not compared to one with high damage, since CR could indicate special or defensive features instead of damage).


I really like Kensei 6/Ranger 1. You have 6 ki points to spend like a battlemaster to get your SS shots to hit, and even have access to a quasi-CBE bonus action at the cost of 1 ki. The whole class feels like a yugioh deck of a few years back with the synergy.

Honorable mention to the Bladesinger 6/ Monk 1, Dealing 4d8 + (Damage Mod×3) with unarmed fighting style. Slap a haste on that boy and you got 5d8 instead.

Uh, what's dealing the 4d8 damage?

I'm counting three attacks at 1d8 damage each (plus the modifier), coming short of a d8.

Staying on monk terms, one could deal at level 5 1d8+6 damage twice and 1d6+4 by going Variant Human (get Dueling through a feat), boost Dex to 18 at fourth level and use a longsword as a monk weapon (either through Kensei or through the feature from Tasha's). With two free levels... No idea what you could do. Maybe dip fighter for the Dueling style and use the ASI to instead boost Dex to 20? Having 1d8+7 twice and 1d6+5 at +8 to hit is... Not enough.
Anything else to improve it?

[Quietus]

Human fighter6/forge cleric 1, with crossbow expert and sharpshooter? Forge cleric makes your hand crossbow +1, your second ASI is +2 dex to get you to 18. You have three attacks per turn , each with :

Accuracy : 4 (dex) + 3 (prof) + 2 (archery style) + 1 (magic weapon) = +10 to hit, or +5 when sharpshooting
Damage : 3.5 (damage die) + 4 (dex) +1 (magic weapon) + 10 (sharpshooter) = 18.5


Against AC 12, not counting crits, you get 12.95 damage per attack, for 38.85 damage.
Against AC 20, not counting crits, you get 5.55 damage per attack, for 16.65

When you add crits in there, you'll probably just be rounding up slightly; technically if you want resourceless damage, you'd use champion. But I just woke up and don't want to deal with crits right now. :smallbiggrin:

[Frogreaver]

Barbarian 2 ranger 5 with PAM and a spear with duelist, collosus slayer and reckless attack does 31.6 to 22.6.

[Eldariel]

What is a resource? Is a spell slot a resource? Casting Polymorph uses a spell slot, so I assume that doesn't count as a resource or it would not be a fair comparison.

The point of curiosity here is:
- I have a party and I'm in a position where I want to cast Polymorph. The party is level 7.
- The party has expended their resources. Long fights, long day, whatever.
- Is there a character for whom it'd be a net DPR loss to cast Polymorph into Giant Ape on them?

With a sidedish of theorycrafting of what's the max at-will damage on level 7. Blown out of the water by minionmancy as ever, but single character DPR is the main object of inquiry due to Polymorph only affecting one creature.


EDIT: I think it might be fair to let Hex count for Warlock damage since it has a duration of 8 hours by this point so if you cast it before short resting, you'll basically be able to have it up all day. Let's say anything with an up-time of 8 hours or longer is practically speaking all-day for these purposes.

[da newt]

So hypothetically, one PC has one level 4 spell slot to burn (resource), but the rest of the party is completely spent (no resources: spell slots, rages, wildshapes, channel divinity, superiority die, etc)?

With zero resources available, a giant ape will out DPR a lvl 7 pc ~ 95% of the time / builds.

But a single lvl 4 spell slot may be capable of even more than one polymorph.

A lvl 3 'conjure animals' for 8 velociraptors would give you 16 attacks at ADV, +4 to hit for 5 hp each on average (80 hp / round before accuracy).

A lvl 4 'conjure woodland beings' for 8 pixie would give you 8 castings of polymorph, and your whole party can morph into great apes while the pixie go invisible and concentrate.

etc

[diplomancer]

Sadly Hexblade's Curse is a short rest resource so it's not applicable here (plus it would take the bonus action). I'm also not entirely sure, how does this gain Advantage? We get +7 to hit for 1d10+4 with 16 Cha. Plugging those numbers in, we get: 31 DPR vs. AC 12 (45 with Advantage) to 11 DPR vs. AC 20 (18 with Advantage). There's two wasted levels; Warlock 6-7 does nothing far as I can tell (you need only two invocations here). So perhaps something could be done with those two levels? Barb 2 would let you get that Advantage if there were no other means.

It actually occurs to me, there's a way to improve the Barbarian-build too, by taking a Forge Cleric dip. This lets you enchant the weapon for +1/+1, which results in the same numbers as this Hexblade would get with Advantage. Still not quite there but 45/18 is already close at least against lower ACs (18 is admittedly quite far away from 27). Is there any other good one-level dip DPR-wise? I can't think of a fighting style that does much (GWF is just so bad), so Fighter 1 isn't it. Rogue seems hard to proc SA-wise and caster classes don't really add much at-will without the ability to use cantrips in a full attack.

Maybe Hexblade 5 (thirsting blade, cloak of flies- technically not resourceless, but in practice it can be for as long as you can keep from being incapacitated) Forge Cleric 1, Fighter 1, with Archery Style, Hand Crossbow (blessing of the forge, making it magical and thus allowing it as pact weapon), CrossbowExpert, Sharpshooter?

Edit: scratch that; this is almost certainly worse than the Fighter 6 (champion) Forge Cleric 1 posted earlier; better dex AND improved crit range will outpace the 3 Cha damage, unless you can get several creatures in range, but then we are not talking DPR anymote.

[Frogreaver]

The point of curiosity here is:
- I have a party and I'm in a position where I want to cast Polymorph. The party is level 7.
- The party has expended their resources. Long fights, long day, whatever.
- Is there a character for whom it'd be a net DPR loss to cast Polymorph into Giant Ape on them?

With a sidedish of theorycrafting of what's the max at-will damage on level 7. Blown out of the water by minionmancy as ever, but single character DPR is the main object of inquiry due to Polymorph only affecting one creature.


EDIT: I think it might be fair to let Hex count for Warlock damage since it has a duration of 8 hours by this point so if you cast it before short resting, you'll basically be able to have it up all day. Let's say anything with an up-time of 8 hours or longer is practically speaking all-day for these purposes.

Concentration...

[Eldariel]

So hypothetically, one PC has one level 4 spell slot to burn (resource), but the rest of the party is completely spent (no resources: spell slots, rages, wildshapes, channel divinity, superiority die, etc)?

With zero resources available, a giant ape will out DPR a lvl 7 pc ~ 95% of the time / builds.

But a single lvl 4 spell slot may be capable of even more than one polymorph.

A lvl 3 'conjure animals' for 8 velociraptors would give you 16 attacks at ADV, +4 to hit for 5 hp each on average (80 hp / round before accuracy).

A lvl 4 'conjure woodland beings' for 8 pixie would give you 8 castings of polymorph, and your whole party can morph into great apes while the pixie go invisible and concentrate.

etc

Yes, but I'm interested in Polymorph, not the other great level 3-4 spells right now. I know full well what those other spells can do: right now I want to compare Polymorph to a level 7 PC's at-will to get some numbers on how it influences a tapped out PC's at-will contributions. This is useful for analysing the worst case of the "Polymorph save"-maneuver where you take a tapped out PC in danger and convert them into a Giant Ape: they get a lot of HP and their at-will gets improved. At the very least the fact that it seems almost no PC can out-at-will the Ape speaks for this being beneficial both offensively and defensively at least on the level where you get this ability.

[Valmark]

Concentration...

That'd be an issue if the same caster was polymorphing themselves and also keeping Hex, so you can just polymorph one hypotetical party member.

[Frogreaver]

Yes, but I'm interested in Polymorph, not the other great level 3-4 spells right now. I know full well what those other spells can do: right now I want to compare Polymorph to a level 7 PC's at-will to get some numbers on how it influences a tapped out PC's at-will contributions.

At level 7 you want to see what the game looks like when all the martial PCs have used their resources but the wizard still has his highest level slot...

While it’s a somewhat interesting question, I’m not sure it’s a very enlightening question.

[Frogreaver]

That'd be an issue if the same caster was polymorphing themselves and also keeping Hex, so you can just polymorph one hypotetical party member.

It’s an issue for the hex caster as well - the comment was that maybe we should count hex as at will since it lasts so long. We should not because it isn’t guaranteed to last that long.

[quindraco]

A giant ape deals 35.4 damage against AC 15 (the recommended target for level 7), which is... challenging to beat. I came up with this so far, which only needs 6 levels of Fighter (Champion, since most Fighter subclasses consume resources):

Nonconsumed resources: Heavy Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, rope to tie the Hand Crossbow to the wielder's wrist (firing pattern is 1 heavy crossbow shot and 2 hand crossbow shots, using the free item interaction to change weapons each round).
Consumed resources: Crossbow bolts.
Assumed race: Tasha's Custom, so Dex is 17 base, 18 after feats. Feats are Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and Piercer. Fighting Style is Archery, of course.

That gets you to 31.43, but it's challenging finding another force multiplier in only one level (Champion level 7 is pretty awful). Getting your hands on a +1 hand crossbow (e.g. via 1 level in Forge Cleric) gets you to 34.35, still less. If you can also have a +1 heavy crossbow, that does it - you'll deal 35.94. You'll deal 35.2 (just shy of the Giant Ape) if you're playing with Firearms and the DM obeys the DMG's claim that firearms are martial weapons, so your loadout is a musket (1 more damage than the heavy crossbow, and the 1 is crittable) and a hand crossbow.

That assumes you're consuming ammo. If you have the scratch to cover yourself in loaded hand crossbows, so your bonus action attack can be draw, fire, drop, like how Blackbeard used to fight in the real world, and you're playing with firearms, you can mix a pistol with a hand crossbow. Assuming a +1 hand pistol and a bucket of loaded hand crossbows, you'll reach 36.27.

I assumed a fight in broad daylight. If you're in darkness, the Ape will not have darkvision without help, like the Darkvision spell. Disadvantage on all attacks would be a gamechanger making it much easier to exceed its output.

[strangebloke]

Does hiding and getting surprise count as a environmental advantage? If not, I'm pretty sure the best build is just a bugbear assassin. You get free advantage and free crits on the first turn, and the extra 4d6 from bugbear is icing.

I did a bit of playing around ludic's calculator and the best build seems to be straight assassin 7 with Crossbow Expert at level 4. It gives you 58.6 - 74.6 DPR on a range of 12-20 AC.

drops off hard after the first round though with a mere 15.7 - 27.3 DPR afterwards.

EDIT: For the truly resource-less approach at this level I suspect the answer is the classic GWM/PAM Champion 5/Barbarian.

Getting both PAM and GWM with vhuman gets you 18.0 - 45.0 DPR
Getting just GWM as a half-orc gets you 20.9 - 43.0 DPR
Getting both GWM and PAM as a level 8 Half-Orc gets you 20.8 - 47.8 DPR
Getting just GWM and an ASI as a level 8 Half-Orc gets you 22.3 - 47.3 DPR

[MaxWilson]

At level 7 you want to see what the game looks like when all the martial PCs have used their resources but the wizard still has his highest level slot...

While it’s a somewhat interesting question, I’m not sure it’s a very enlightening question.

You can also think of it as "how much can be accomplished if everyone but one PC is hoarding their resources for an upcoming bossfight".

[diplomancer]

Does it count as a resource if I have a stable of humanoids I keep imprisoned to kill one off every morning and raise as an Specter? Asking for a friend.

[MaxWilson]

Does it count as a resource if I have a stable of humanoids I keep imprisoned to kill one off every morning and raise as an Specter? Asking for a friend.

If you've got a Zealot in your stable, it can be the same humanoid every day...

[Dalinar]

I'm unsurprised that Polymorph, a level 4 concentration spell, is a DPR gain when cast on most characters that are trying to hoard their rest-based resources.

Maybe check Bladesinger DPR? I don't know what the actual optimal build for them is anymore with Shadow Blade + BB/GFB not being a thing anymore and with CL/EA being bonked by Crawford ruling. But I can't imagine attack plus T2 cantrip plus maybe an offhand BA attack is bad.

[quindraco]

I'm unsurprised that Polymorph, a level 4 concentration spell, is a DPR gain when cast on most characters that are trying to hoard their rest-based resources.

Maybe check Bladesinger DPR? I don't know what the actual optimal build for them is anymore with Shadow Blade + BB/GFB not being a thing anymore and with CL/EA being bonked by Crawford ruling. But I can't imagine attack plus T2 cantrip plus maybe an offhand BA attack is bad.

What's CL/EA? Crawford rulings haven't been RAW since before Tasha's dropped, iirc. They're just useful guidance when trying to determine RAI.

[Evaar]

What's CL/EA?

Custom Lineage, Elven Accuracy.

Basically inventing a custom lineage that is still an "elf," and then taking Elven Accuracy.

[MaxWilson]

What's CL/EA? Crawford rulings haven't been RAW since before Tasha's dropped, iirc. They're just useful guidance when trying to determine RAI.

Nitpick while agreeing: Crawford's Tweets have never been RAW (by definition--they're on Twitter, not in the PHB) but now they aren't even official corporate communications.

[noob]

A giant ape deals 35.4 damage against AC 15 (the recommended target for level 7), which is... challenging to beat. I came up with this so far, which only needs 6 levels of Fighter (Champion, since most Fighter subclasses consume resources):

Nonconsumed resources: Heavy Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, rope to tie the Hand Crossbow to the wielder's wrist (firing pattern is 1 heavy crossbow shot and 2 hand crossbow shots, using the free item interaction to change weapons each round).
Consumed resources: Crossbow bolts.
Assumed race: Tasha's Custom, so Dex is 17 base, 18 after feats. Feats are Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and Piercer. Fighting Style is Archery, of course.

That gets you to 31.43, but it's challenging finding another force multiplier in only one level (Champion level 7 is pretty awful). Getting your hands on a +1 hand crossbow (e.g. via 1 level in Forge Cleric) gets you to 34.35, still less. If you can also have a +1 heavy crossbow, that does it - you'll deal 35.94. You'll deal 35.2 (just shy of the Giant Ape) if you're playing with Firearms and the DM obeys the DMG's claim that firearms are martial weapons, so your loadout is a musket (1 more damage than the heavy crossbow, and the 1 is crittable) and a hand crossbow.

That assumes you're consuming ammo. If you have the scratch to cover yourself in loaded hand crossbows, so your bonus action attack can be draw, fire, drop, like how Blackbeard used to fight in the real world, and you're playing with firearms, you can mix a pistol with a hand crossbow. Assuming a +1 hand pistol and a bucket of loaded hand crossbows, you'll reach 36.27.

I assumed a fight in broad daylight. If you're in darkness, the Ape will not have darkvision without help, like the Darkvision spell. Disadvantage on all attacks would be a gamechanger making it much easier to exceed its output.
Be a dwarf too then you are crossbow dwarf.

[da newt]

Fair enough - lets have a look at what burning 1 polymorph spell to turn one of your party buddies into a giant ape gets you.

Gains: a Giant Ape that can two hand smash for up to 1 hr.

Cost: a caster burning a lvl 4 spell and keeping concentration for an hour, minus whatever the PC would do (DPR) for one hr.

[XmonkTad]

If you're looking for a source of easy, resource-less advantage, don't forget the Kobold. A Kobold EK 6/X 1 can have a familiar around all the time, have SS/XBE, and do fine DPS as long as they're not in sunlight.

[Frogreaver]

If you're looking for a source of easy, resource-less advantage, don't forget the Kobold. A Kobold EK 6/X 1 can have a familiar around all the time, have SS/XBE, and do fine DPS as long as they're not in sunlight.

All the time familiars in combat are a huge stretch.

[quindraco]

If you're looking for a source of easy, resource-less advantage, don't forget the Kobold. A Kobold EK 6/X 1 can have a familiar around all the time, have SS/XBE, and do fine DPS as long as they're not in sunlight.

It's very easy for a familiar to die and it's very time-consuming to res them. They're not time-lmited or anything so they count for this thread's thought exercise, but if familiars were indestructible the ritual caster feat would be functionally mandatory for kobold builds.

[Frogreaver]

It's very easy for a familiar to die and it's very time-consuming to res them. They're not time-lmited or anything so they count for this thread's thought exercise, but if familiars were indestructible the ritual caster feat would be functionally mandatory for kobold builds.

I don’t think they count for this thread.

[XmonkTad]

All the time familiars in combat are a huge stretch.

Really? I've found my Owl to be around almost all the time I want it. It doesn't expire at least, and can be cast as a ritual. YMMV to if it counts as "resource-less". Though my idea used ammo, so it already wasn't strictly resource-less.

[Dork_Forge]

Really? I've found my Owl to be around almost all the time I want it. It doesn't expire at least, and can be cast as a ritual. YMMV to if it counts as "resource-less". Though my idea used ammo, so it already wasn't strictly resource-less.

Familiars that take part in combat should regualrly be targeted, otherwise the monsters are letting a pest level creature contribute to their death and a level 1 spell gets blown majorly out of proportion.

Every single time I've had a Wizard in a game try fmailiar shenanigans they always end up dying and neeidng to be resummoned. This means that they likely aren't available for any encounters before the next rest and the Wizard is burning through gold at a quick pace in comparison to, well pretty much everyone else.

You shouldn't assume a familiar will survive past the first eno****er this is tried in (or well, more than a couple rounds imo).

[MaxWilson]

Familiars that take part in combat should regualrly be targeted, otherwise the monsters are letting a pest level creature contribute to their death and a level 1 spell gets blown majorly out of proportion.

Well... it depends. Primarily it depends on whether or not someone is making themselves an even bigger target. In an offense-focused party with a Recklessly Attacking AC 15 GWM PAM Barbarian, I can certainly imagine the little owl who is helping the wizard land their Ray of Frost every round might be a low priority target even from a rational monster's perspective. I conjecture that groups who seldom or never see familiars attacked probably aren't avoiding damage every round--they're just seeing it go other targets than the familiar. If the group switched things around and started playing cautiously from chokepoints, that little owl would probably die much quicker.

Familiars should still get caught in AoEs regularly but only because DMs ideally should be using AoEs regularly (30%+ of non-trivial fights), since the design of spells like Conjure Animals seems to imply that it's an expected part of 5E. Fortunately there's a wide selection of AoEs in the MM (unlike long-ranged attacks), you just have to go out of your way to include them.


Every single time I've had a Wizard in a game try fmailiar shenanigans they always end up dying and neeidng to be resummoned. This means that they likely aren't available for any encounters before the next rest and the Wizard is burning through gold at a quick pace in comparison to, well pretty much everyone else.

You shouldn't assume a familiar will survive past the first [encounter] this is tried in (or well, more than a couple rounds imo).

My perspective is similar but not identical: owl familiars are pretty safe against melee-only foes. Don't let them get near monsters with arrows, and be prepared to resummon them if needed, but there are some fights where you can safely rely on them to grant advantage as a fringe benefit.

[quindraco]

My perspective is similar but not identical: owl familiars are pretty safe against melee-only foes. Don't let them get near monsters with arrows, and be prepared to resummon them if needed, but there are some fights where you can safely rely on them to grant advantage as a fringe benefit.

Don't forget your owl can literally use you as cover. Many AOEs can circumvent this issue, but against projectiles, I will always put myself in harm's way to keep my birb safe(r).

[Dork_Forge]

Well... it depends. Primarily it depends on whether or not someone is making themselves an even bigger target. In an offense-focused party with a Recklessly Attacking AC 15 GWM PAM Barbarian, I can certainly imagine the little owl who is helping the wizard land their Ray of Frost every round might be a low priority target even from a rational monster's perspective. I conjecture that groups who seldom or never see familiars attacked probably aren't avoiding damage every round--they're just seeing it go other targets than the familiar. If the group switched things around and started playing cautiously from chokepoints, that little owl would probably die much quicker.

It really depends on the initiative order and lay out in combat, since the Help action will be whichever the next attack is. If the encounter is quite a few enemies, then it's entirely possible that the Wizard and Owl can just focus on a single enemy, but conversely that enemy is also free to just target the owl since their comrades are fighting the rest of the party.

If it's lower number then the Owl could very well be facilitating something like a Rogue's Sneak instead, in which case an enemy would be high motivated to kill it.

I've had some experience with a Wizard that liked to use Dragon's Breath on his familiar (Tressym), that poor cat was killed relentlessly many times over, Orcs with javelins, Fireballs etc.


Familiars should still get caught in AoEs regularly but only because DMs ideally should be using AoEs regularly (30%+ of non-trivial fights), since the design of spells like Conjure Animals seems to imply that it's an expected part of 5E. Fortunately there's a wide selection of AoEs in the MM (unlike long-ranged attacks), you just have to go out of your way to include them.

Thoroughly agree on AOEs, one of my parties fell afoul of a Starspawn Seer bending space on one of it's on hulks, whilst another was also in melee with the party. Cue the AOE nastiness that the totem barbarian was helpless against.


My perspective is similar but not identical: owl familiars are pretty safe against melee-only foes. Don't let them get near monsters with arrows, and be prepared to resummon them if needed, but there are some fights where you can safely rely on them to grant advantage as a fringe benefit.

I try to avoid making encounters with only melee based monsters, it makes kiting too easy and is easily fixed, even something like javelins on hand can help change up the dynamic.

Side anecdote, I had kiting go terribly wrong for one party that tried to pursue a misting vampire. The vampire misted into a coffin loaded into a waiting carriage, complete with 4 spawn body guards. They got very lucky and managed to kill the horses pulling the carriage and decided to plink away at them kiting. The regeneration of the spawn meant that they overall achieved nothing but allowing one of the spawn time to bleed a chamred commoner into the vampire's coffin.

Keeping away from arrows is easier said than done with the range of bows and crossbows, the high speed of the Owl is basically cut in half with it's usual hit and run tactics.


Don't forget your owl can literally use you as cover. Many AOEs can circumvent this issue, but against projectiles, I will always put myself in harm's way to keep my birb safe(r).

That... is a very high risk way of protecting a familar. You're not only making yourself a much larger target, but for the Owl to actually get to you, you're presumably within 30ft as a Wizard, and so easily closed on.

[MaxWilson]

Keeping away from arrows is easier said than done with the range of bows and crossbows, the high speed of the Owl is basically cut in half with it's usual hit and run tactics.


What I meant by "keep it away from bows and arrows" was, in this context, "have it keep a low profile during this fight, ideally hiding and trying to look irrelevant." I.e. don't use hit and run tactics at all if arrows are in play. Save that owl for its main job, recon and complaining.

Shut up, Loiosh.

[Dork_Forge]

What I meant by "keep it away from bows and arrows" was, in this context, "have it keep a low profile during this fight, ideally hiding and trying to look irrelevant." I.e. don't use hit and run tactics at all if arrows are in play. Save that owl for its main job, recon and complaining.

Shut up, Loiosh.

I cannot personify a pseudo as anyone other than Loiosh when I play a pact of the chain, fantastic series, at times infuriating choices made by Vlad.

But yes that makes a lot more sense, and seems more appropriate than the default 'every combat' mentality that comes up here a lot for familiars.

[x3n0n]

It really depends on the initiative order and lay out in combat, since the Help action will be whichever the next attack is.

I used to think this was the unambiguous meaning (that is, like Guiding Bolt), but I think the RAW also supports a reading in which you select the ally.


Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

[quindraco]

That... is a very high risk way of protecting a familar. You're not only making yourself a much larger target, but for the Owl to actually get to you, you're presumably within 30ft as a Wizard, and so easily closed on.

Yes, but I usually only need the owl if my foes are super close to me. If I can credibly engage at range, I just do that - I get worse at winning as my enemies close in, so I whip out the owl for murdering my way out of there. If I'm already fighting at, say, 120 feet out, the owl just doesn't participate.

[Dork_Forge]

I used to think this was the unambiguous meaning (that is, like Guiding Bolt), but I think the RAW also supports a reading in which you select the ally.

Whilst I can understand someone reading it that way, I don't think that's how it works and to support that:

-Unlike helping with an ability check, the familiar is targeting the enemy not the ally. The only way choosing who gets to benefit from the advantage would make sense is if the familiar used it's reaction when that ally attacked (and had to stay next to the enemy as a result).

-Since it lacks any language that would say you choose the creature, I wouldn't lean that way

-The DM screen reincarnated seems to confirm this ruling based on this stack exchange thread (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128393/do-i-choose-the-target-or-the-ally-for-the-help-action)

-Whatever it's worth, this is also what Jeremy Crawford has said on the matter (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/854020028949086208)



Yes, but I usually only need the owl if my foes are super close to me. If I can credibly engage at range, I just do that - I get worse at winning as my enemies close in, so I whip out the owl for murdering my way out of there. If I'm already fighting at, say, 120 feet out, the owl just doesn't participate.

Fair enough, good on you for protecting your summoned companion.

[x3n0n]

Whilst I can understand someone reading it that way, I don't think that's how it works and to support that:

-Unlike helping with an ability check, the familiar is targeting the enemy not the ally. The only way choosing who gets to benefit from the advantage would make sense is if the familiar used it's reaction when that ally attacked (and had to stay next to the enemy as a result).

-Since it lacks any language that would say you choose the creature, I wouldn't lean that way

-The DM screen reincarnated seems to confirm this ruling based on this stack exchange thread (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128393/do-i-choose-the-target-or-the-ally-for-the-help-action)

-Whatever it's worth, this is also what Jeremy Crawford has said on the matter (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/854020028949086208)

Thanks for the citations; that's helpful. I agree with all but your second point, and agree that the other arguments outweigh that one.

I'll revert to the way I used to run it. :)

[Ir0ns0ul]

One thing that came to my mind recently was a full Rogue (maybe with Fighting Initiate: Thowing Weapon FS) using a {scrubbed} Bracer of Flying Daggers in order to freely attack 2x times, ensure SA will land and saving his Cunning Action BA to hide or do something better. Didn’t went to calculation and thought about an ideal Rogue sub-class to sustain this, but it’s definitely a good at-will damage dealer.

[Frogreaver]

Zealot Barbarian 5/Forge Cleric 1/Fighter 1 variant human)

GWM, +1 magic weapon (forge cleric), GWF, Reckless Attack

My preliminary unchecked numbers for the 12-20 AC range are 53.7 to 25.1. I’ll double check later but if true that beats out the giant ape and will bypass resistance to non-magical damage.

Double checked and was an error. Actual range is 50 to 23.3 when reckless attacking. However, if not reckless attacking vs 19 and 20 ACs it becomes 50 to 27.1. Still slightly edging out the giant ape.

[diplomancer]

Zealot Barbarian 5/Forge Cleric 1/Fighter 1 variant human)

GWM, +1 magic weapon (forge cleric), GWF, Reckless Attack

My preliminary unchecked numbers for the 12-20 AC range are 53.7 to 25.1. I’ll double check later but if true that beats out the giant ape and will bypass resistance to non-magical damage.

Double checked and was an error. Actual range is 50 to 23.3 when reckless attacking. However, if not reckless attacking vs 19 and 20 ACs it becomes 50 to 27.1. Still slightly edging out the giant ape.

OP asked for resourceless; doesn't the Zealot's damage depend on Rage?

[Frogreaver]

OP asked for resourceless; doesn't the Zealot's damage depend on Rage?

You are correct. Drop the top end by 5.4 and bottom end by 5. Now he’s slightly below the Giant Ape but still close.

[Eldariel]

Zealot Barbarian 5/Forge Cleric 1/Fighter 1 variant human)

GWM, +1 magic weapon (forge cleric), GWF, Reckless Attack

My preliminary unchecked numbers for the 12-20 AC range are 53.7 to 25.1. I’ll double check later but if true that beats out the giant ape and will bypass resistance to non-magical damage.

Double checked and was an error. Actual range is 50 to 23.3 when reckless attacking. However, if not reckless attacking vs 19 and 20 ACs it becomes 50 to 27.1. Still slightly edging out the giant ape.

Is that using Greatsword? Are you counting automatic off-hand attack or is Vuman PAM included?

EDIT: PAM clearly, so this is 16 Str PAM/GWM Great Weapon Fighting +1/+1. 47.9-19.6 is what I get with when I run it at 3+3+1 for 1d10+4 x2 & 1d4+4.

[Frogreaver]

Is that using Greatsword? Are you counting automatic off-hand attack or is Vuman PAM included?

EDIT: PAM clearly, so this is 16 Str PAM/GWM Great Weapon Fighting +1/+1. 47.9-19.6 is what I get with when I run it at 3+3+1 for 1d10+4 x2 & 1d4+4.

PAM come out worse in my comparison. I did include the crit chance of the extra attack from GWM. It amounts for 3.9 to 1.9 extra DPR for the great sword.

To be totally clear I am looking at variant human with GWM and great sword and starting 16 str and +2 str for ASI at 4th for total of 18 str.

[Omni-Centrist]

I can't find any build that reaches that damage without resource expenditure. Though tbh it's fair- a level 7 character shouldn't have the resourceless damage of a CR 7 monster (at least not compared to one with high damage, since CR could indicate special or defensive features instead of damage).



Uh, what's dealing the 4d8 damage?

I'm counting three attacks at 1d8 damage each (plus the modifier), coming short of a d8.

Staying on monk terms, one could deal at level 5 1d8+6 damage twice and 1d6+4 by going Variant Human (get Dueling through a feat), boost Dex to 18 at fourth level and use a longsword as a monk weapon (either through Kensei or through the feature from Tasha's). With two free levels... No idea what you could do. Maybe dip fighter for the Dueling style and use the ASI to instead boost Dex to 20? Having 1d8+7 twice and 1d6+5 at +8 to hit is... Not enough.
Anything else to improve it?

The 4d8 is coming from a Blade cantrip damage, so on average you're dealing 32 damage reliably each turn while having high AC from BS

[Valmark]

PAM come out worse in my comparison. I did include the crit chance of the extra attack from GWM. It amounts for 3.9 to 1.9 extra DPR for the great sword.

To be totally clear I am looking at variant human with GWM and great sword and starting 16 str and +2 str for ASI at 4th for total of 18 str.
Using Ludic's calculator it seems to come out as 44.6-22.1 (not using GWM when the penalty to hit becomes too harsh).

Are these factors correct?
+8 to hit
2d6+5 reroll 1s and 2s
Two attacks plus a bonus action one on a crit
Use -5/+10 when advantageous
Have advantage from Reckless

Tested against AC 12 and AC 20.

The 4d8 is coming from a Blade cantrip damage, so on average you're dealing 32 damage reliably each turn while having high AC from BS

What's the attack routine?
You need two hands free to deal 1d8 damage with the fists and a weapon to use BB or GFB, so on the turns where you draw your weapon you'd be left with a d6 (unless it's based on the interpretation of being able to draw and sheate the same weapon, I don't use it so it'd explain the confusion).

[Frogreaver]

Using Ludic's calculator it seems to come out as 44.6-22.1 (not using GWM when the penalty to hit becomes too harsh).

Are these factors correct?
+8 to hit
2d6+5 reroll 1s and 2s
Two attacks plus a bonus action one on a crit
Use -5/+10 when advantageous
Have advantage from Reckless

Tested against AC 12 and AC 20.


What's the attack routine?
You need two hands free to deal 1d8 damage with the fists and a weapon to use BB or GFB, so on the turns where you draw your weapon you'd be left with a d6 (unless it's based on the interpretation of being able to draw and sheate the same weapon, I don't use it so it'd explain the confusion).

Yes and Those match my numbers. The initial higher number included the zealot damage feature which isnt actually at will. I provided the adjustment for this after that was pointed out.

[Valmark]

Yes and Those match my numbers. The initial higher number included the zealot damage feature which isnt actually at will. I provided the adjustment for this after that was pointed out.

Oh I see- I thought the initial post had been edited too, instead of having to add (well, subtract) the difference to it.

[Frogreaver]

Oh I see- I thought the initial post had been edited too, instead of having to add (well, subtract) the difference to it.

Unless it’s something I catch in a few seconds I usually leave my numbers and add the correction below. Harder to edit stuff on the phone.

[Silpharon]

Ok, I tried too many combos, but one came out on top:

Armorer Artificer 5 / Fighter 1 / Genie Warlock 1
VHuman/CL
Dex 16-17 starting out
Sharpshooter, XBE at ASI
Fighting style Archery
Infusions: Enhanced Weapon (lightning launcher), Repeating Weapon (hand crossbow), Spellwrought Tattoo Familiar as backup infusion known

This is a dex-based Armorer, so both the lightning launcher and hand crossbow are 9 to hit (3 proficiency + 3 dex + 2 archery + 1 infusion). Damage is 1d6+4 except that one lightning launcher hit gets an extra 1d6 and one hit from either weapon gets 3 damage from Genie Warlock. Sharpshooter is used every time.

I am using Spellwrought Tattoo to make a familiar ahead of time to provide advantage on 1 attack. I realize some of you may have issue with this, so I'll post damages both ways.

With familiar 45.6-21.6 DPR (12-20 AC)
Without familiar 41.0-17.2 DPR (12-20 AC)
Giant ape 42.2-24.1 DPR (12-20 AC)

Note that this Giant Ape DPR is different from the OP's. I'm using a custom Monte Carlo simulation for my numbers, but I cross-checked with ludic's and it matches. I'm using (3d10+6)x2 with +9 to hit for the ape.

Anyway, if the familiar is allowed, this combo produces higher DPR for AC 12-17 and lower for 18-20. I kinda like the look of an Armorer shooting lightning from one arm and magical bolts from another.

BTW, if a DM were to allow custom lineage to get elven accuracy, we could beat the ape from AC 12-20. The winner would be the same class build, but to get EA instead of XBE, and focus int instead of dex. This would bump us to 18 int. Infusions would be Enhanced Weapon and Homunculus Servant. Same set up, but with a Homunculus attack as the bonus action. DPR is 42.9-25.9 (12-20 AC).

[Eldariel]

Huh. I dunno how that happened. The upper end could be advantage number but I have absolutely no clue about the lower end.

Quick math to just confirm:
Giant Ape has +9 to hit and crits on 20. It does 3d10+6 (average 5,5*3+6 = 16,5+6 = 22,5) on a hit and 6d10+6 (average 5,5*6+6 = 33 + 6 = 39) on a crit. Against AC 12 it hits on a roll of 3 so there's 10% chance of miss, 85% chance of hit and 5% chance of crit ergo: 0,85 * 22,5 + 0,05 * 39 = 21,075. 21,075 * 2 = 42,15.

Vs. AC 20 the only difference is that it needs 11 to hit so 50% miss, 45% hit, 5% crit ergo 0,45 * 22,5 + 0,05 * 39 = 12,075. 12,075 * 2 = 24,15. So confirmed, the correct bounds are 42-24.


Also, that's actually pretty good.

[Silpharon]

Huh. I dunno how that happened. The upper end could be advantage number but I have absolutely no clue about the lower end.

Quick math to just confirm:
Giant Ape has +9 to hit and crits on 20. It does 3d10+6 (average 5,5*3+6 = 16,5+6 = 22,5) on a hit and 6d10+6 (average 5,5*6+6 = 33 + 6 = 39) on a crit. Against AC 12 it hits on a roll of 3 so there's 10% chance of miss, 85% chance of hit and 5% chance of crit ergo: 0,85 * 22,5 + 0,05 * 39 = 21,075. 21,075 * 2 = 42,15.

Vs. AC 20 the only difference is that it needs 11 to hit so 50% miss, 45% hit, 5% crit ergo 0,45 * 22,5 + 0,05 * 39 = 12,075. 12,075 * 2 = 24,15. So confirmed, the correct bounds are 42-24.

Also, that's actually pretty good.

Cool, glad our math lines up.

Yeah, I was surprised how well the EA Armorer build holds up. Even compared to a CL/EA Eldritch Knight 6/Forge Cleric 1 build with sharpshooter, XBE, familiar, and hand crossbow, the Armorer build wins from 14-20 AC.

I don't consider it too far of a stretch for a custom three-quarters elf to have access to EA, but I recognize that's not RAW (or how JC interprets it). Worst case your stuck with the Dex Armorer build, which beats ape 12-18 AC, and loses at 19-20 AC.

[Eldariel]

Cool, glad our math lines up.

Yeah, I was surprised how well the EA Armorer build holds up. Even compared to a CL/EA Eldritch Knight 6/Forge Cleric 1 build with sharpshooter, XBE, familiar, and hand crossbow, the Armorer build wins from 14-20 AC.

I don't consider it too far of a stretch for a custom three-quarters elf to have access to EA, but I recognize that's not RAW (or how JC interprets it). Worst case your stuck with the Dex Armorer build, which beats ape 12-18 AC, and loses at 19-20 AC.

Tho the PAM/GWM Vuman Barb 5/Forge Cleric 1/Fighter 1 (or something better, haven't found a good use for that last level yet tho) does outperform it at lower ACs (I believe this calculator does GWM vs. PAM right so that it uses GWM 1d10+4 extra attack if available and PAM 1d4+4 extra attack otherwise), at:
AC 12: 47,9
AC 13: 45,1
AC 14: 42,0
AC 15: 38,7
AC 16: 35,0
AC 17: 31,2
AC 18: 26,9
AC 19: 22,1
AC 20: 19,6

Of course not without cost but still, it seems to hold up until AC 17ish too (AC18 the Ape has 28,7 DPR so it wins out but at AC17 it's only 30,9). Of course, a risky build since you're Reckless non-Rage so you'll do a lot of face tanking but you can outdamage most things at least.

[Silpharon]

Tho the PAM/GWM Vuman Barb 5/Forge Cleric 1/Fighter 1 (or something better, haven't found a good use for that last level yet tho) does outperform it at lower ACs (I believe this calculator does GWM vs. PAM right so that it uses GWM 1d10+4 extra attack if available and PAM 1d4+4 extra attack otherwise), at:
AC 12: 47,9
AC 13: 45,1
AC 14: 42,0
AC 15: 38,7
AC 16: 35,0
AC 17: 31,2
AC 18: 26,9
AC 19: 22,1
AC 20: 19,6

Of course not without cost but still, it seems to hold up until AC 17ish too (AC18 the Ape has 28,7 DPR so it wins out but at AC17 it's only 30,9). Of course, a risky build since you're Reckless non-Rage so you'll do a lot of face tanking but you can outdamage most things at least.
Thanks for posting the spread.

For non-EA Armorer, Barb wins at AC 12-16.
For EA Armorer (or EA Eldritch Knight), Barb wins at AC 12-15.

At level 7, seems like this is right on the cusp between the two. I would expect ACs around 16-17 to show up, though there would likely be minions well under that.

[Man_Over_Game]

Thought I got close with a 5 Rogue/1 Fighter/2 Ranger, but not quite.

Soulknife benefits from both Duelist and the Thrown Weapon fighting styles, for +4 damage on your two psychic knives, but that only goes up to 32.5 at level 7.

It's pretty damn good for a resourceless build that works at 60 range and has no feats, but it's not quite enough to match the monkey.

[Quietus]

Thought I got close with a 5 Rogue/1 Fighter/2 Ranger, but not quite.

Soulknife benefits from both Duelist and the Thrown Weapon fighting styles, for +4 damage on your two psychic knives, but that only goes up to 32.5 at level 7.

It's pretty damn good for a resourceless build that works at 60 range and has no feats, but it's not quite enough to match the monkey.

Expect table variance on this. Plenty of DMs look at the "Wielded in one hand" and reject those stacking, as once you throw the weapon, it is no longer in your hand to be wielded.

[Man_Over_Game]

Expect table variance on this. Plenty of DMs look at the "Wielded in one hand" and reject those stacking, as once you throw the weapon, it is no longer in your hand to be wielded.

Before the thrown weapon fighting style, I don't think I've heard of any opposition of the Dueling fighting style applying to thrown weapons.

I did find out that the lead dev of 5e rules in favor of allowing Dueling to work with thrown weapons, but how acceptable that is is obviously up in the air.

Something about it seems intentional, as there isn't any other reason I can imagine why the daggers are spawned one at a time. In fact, they could have made it more streamlined by spawning knives in each of your free hands at once (as they would just use the normal dual-wielding rules).

[OBoyd]

Your Bladesinger from the first post should include the damage a 4th Level Summon Fey would add (2×13 damage at +6 to hit with practically guaranteed advantage on the 1st attack). They can have one around for a many hours a day as the Polymorphed Ape would be.

[PhillipJokar]

Infusions: Enhanced Weapon (lightning launcher)
IIRC you can't infuse your armor model weapons unless you hit Armorer 9 for the Armor Modifications feature.

[OldTrees1]

IIRC you can't infuse your armor model weapons unless you hit Armorer 9 for the Armor Modifications feature.

IIRC the Armor Modification feature just allows you to treat the armor as multiple items for the purpose of infusing. That means at 3rd you can use 1 infusion on the armor. Since the armor technically is both an armor and a simple weapon, then you could either use Enhance Weapon or Enhance Armor but not both.

[Silpharon]

IIRC the Armor Modification feature just allows you to treat the armor as multiple items for the purpose of infusing. That means at 3rd you can use 1 infusion on the armor. Since the armor technically is both an armor and a simple weapon, then you could either use Enhance Weapon or Enhance Armor but not both.

This is my reading as well. Enhanced Defense is going on a shield.

[Nefariis]

Your Bladesinger from the first post should include the damage a 4th Level Summon Fey would add (2×13 damage at +6 to hit with practically guaranteed advantage on the 1st attack). They can have one around for a many hours a day as the Polymorphed Ape would be.

I agree with this.

A Polymorphed Ape is not resourceless and lasts for an hour - so to be able to do about as much damage physically (resourceless) and then also be able to cast a summon (or polymorph something else) for an hour, is more impressive to me than just being able to polymorph into an ape.

I think the extra damage has to be considered from a similar hour long spell.

[Eldariel]

I agree with this.

A Polymorphed Ape is not resourceless and lasts for an hour - so to be able to do about as much damage physically (resourceless) and then also be able to cast a summon (or polymorph something else) for an hour, is more impressive to me than just being able to polymorph into an ape.

I think the extra damage has to be considered from a similar hour long spell.

That's trivial, not an interesting problem to solve. Why bother?

[Nefariis]

That's trivial, not an interesting problem to solve. Why bother?

I don't think it's trivial at all - apples to apples it does more damage.

[Eldariel]

I don't think it's trivial at all - apples to apples it does more damage.

No trade off. Obviously it does more damage. Doesn't tell us anything useful. This thread is meant to figure out the minimum damage increase you can expect out of Polymorph on level 7. How does "Cast a different spell to do more damage" help there? Sure, casting a different spell can do more damage. Easily even and in a myriad of ways. But that doesn't help quantify Polymorph.