[3.5] Ritual of the Dark Flames

[Thurbane]

So, looking for some feedback on a theoretical build.

Ritual of the Dark Flames (Lords of Darkness, p.11) gives the character ability to make a 10 foot ranged touch attack, as a supernatural ability, 1/round, which does 1d6 per HD negative energy damage. The drawback (aside from ritual costs), is you take 2 Wis damage each time you use the ability.

Now, I'm thinking something like a Binder 1/Rogue 19 build. Binder for Naberius, to handle the Wis damage; and Rogue 19 so I can sneak attack for additional damage with the Dark Flames (I know there are better SA builds than Rogue 19).

The Enlarge Supernatural Ability and Empower Supernatural Ability feats both work with the flames, but are only 1/day for each time you use the feats.

Maybe Craven to increase SA damage? Theoretically, at ECL 20 I could SA with dark flames for 20d6+10d6+20 damage...

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Open to all official 3.5 material except psionics, incarnum, shadowcasting or truenaming. No PF, and preferably no Dragon/Dungeon mag material.

Cheers - T

[MinimanMidget]

Well, Naberius can't keep up with the Wis damage if you're using it every round, so I'd be inclined to go for Strongheart Vest instead.

Edit: Missed the "no incarnum" restriction. That's pretty rough.

Beyond that, how are you triggering Sneak Attack on a ranged attack every round? Just using your move action to hide (within 10 feet of your target)? I hate having to think about the sniping rules, so I like Warlock 1 + Blend Into Darkness for swift action HiPS every round.

[Crake]

Well, as a ranged attack, your biggest hurdle is gonna be qualifying for sneak attack while also being within 10 feet. Invisibility helps to a degree, but monsters with supernatural senses will be able to spot you. A hide in plain sight build is probably your best bet, so either 10 levels of assassin, or 1 level of shadowdancer. Personally I'd go with shadowdancer, and pick up skill mastery for hide and move silently to help with making your stealth more consistent, plus shadowdancer fits the fluff of the ability a bit better I think.

Keep in mind the sniping rule of -20 only applies if you want to be continuously hidden. There's nothing stopping you from hiding with hips, taking a shot, getting revealed, then using a move action to hide again at no penalty. It does create an opening for readied actions to hit you, but it saves you from having to worry about the absurd penalty from sniping.

Alternatively, if you're allowed pathfinder material (I know the OP says no pathfinder, but for other people who might want to use the build and ARE allowed pf material), the expert sniper feat, and the Signature Skill feat for stealth 5 ranks reduces your sniping penalty by 10 each, so you can just snipe with no penalty.


Beyond that, how are you triggering Sneak Attack on a ranged attack every round? Just using your move action to hide (within 10 feet of your target)? I hate having to think about the sniping rules, so I like Warlock 1 + Blend Into Darkness for swift action HiPS every round.

Issue with this is if you're plonking darkness down, you need to be able to see through your own darkness to avoid losing sneak attack qualification due to concealment, so you need at least 2 levels in warlock to also pick up devil's sight. Easier to just grab shadowdancer imo. It's one more feat (you can ignore the mobility requirement by buying an armor with the mobility enchantment, and then selling it after you take your shadowdancer level), but the ability is much more consistent and doesn't eat up 2 levels instead of 1.

[Silva Stormrage]

Best though I had was to simply not use the ability yourself. It doesn't look like the ritual costs much to apply, you could have an awakened undead or construct undergo the ritual. Not sure if there is a particular clause in the ability preventing you from using it if you are immune to ability damage or not.

Still since the damage is scaled via HD giving this to massed undead could give you a wide range of pretty devastating short ranged burst attacks which have the extra utility of being healing for your undead. Undead and various minions tend to have inflated HD anyway. Unfortunately undead aren't immune to mental ability damage but still I am sure something could be done to fix that.

[Khatoblepas]

You don't even need a binder level to mitigate the wisdom damage. Instead, take the feat Bind Vestige (Dahlver Nar) and gain the Mad Soul ability. It gives you immunity to wisdom damage and drain, which is much better than naberius for this as unlike hellfire warlock, the ritual still functions if you're immune.

[Thurbane]

You don't even need a binder level to mitigate the wisdom damage. Instead, take the feat Bind Vestige (Dahlver Nar) and gain the Mad Soul ability. It gives you immunity to wisdom damage and drain, which is much better than naberius for this as unlike hellfire warlock, the ritual still functions if you're immune.

Now that is a very interesting option I hadn't thought of before...nice!

[Gorthawar]

Have you considered a skirmish build instead of sneak attack? With your standard action ritual you're not worried about full attacking and moving 10-20 feats to activate the extra damage shouldn't be too difficult. Swift hunter will allow to apply the extra damage to immune enemies if you pick you favourite enemies right.

[Bullet06320]

arcane trickster build maybe, you lose a little on the sneak attack, but you get spells.
arcane trickster gets you impromptu sneak attack up to 2/day, lets you declare any attack as a sneak attack
and you take the reserve feat summon elemental for a flanking buddy

[Troacctid]

Issue with this is if you're plonking darkness down, you need to be able to see through your own darkness to avoid losing sneak attack qualification due to concealment, so you need at least 2 levels in warlock to also pick up devil's sight.
It's not an issue. Just put the darkness on your tooth. Then you can close your mouth and turn it off whenever it's inconvenient. The feat requires you to be within 10 feet of magical darkness; it doesn't require the darkness to be obscuring your space.

[Zaq]

It's not an issue. Just put the darkness on your tooth. Then you can close your mouth and turn it off whenever it's inconvenient. The feat requires you to be within 10 feet of magical darkness; it doesn't require the darkness to be obscuring your space.

That's hilarious, but now I'm imagining having a conversation with someone like this. Somewhat distracting.

[AsuraKyoko]

That's hilarious, but now I'm imagining having a conversation with someone like this. Somewhat distracting.

Well, you already want to stay 5 ft. away from people to avoid all the problems from using a ranged attack in melee range, so just double down and wear a mask too, claiming that it's because you are being socially responsible. :smalltongue:

Since the Ritual of the Dark Flames requires that you be dedicated to Cyric, the god of lies and murder and all that, I'm sure that he would appreciate the irony in the deception.

[Khatoblepas]

Thinking about it, you don't need sneak attack per se to get a lot out of Ritual of Dark Flames, just more standard actions. Maybe the following build would help :

Necropolitan Human Factotum 8/Chameleon 10
1) Able Learner
B) Bind Vestige
3) Font of Inspiration
6) Font of Inspiration
9) Font of Inspiration
12) Font of Inspiration
15) Font of Inspiration
18) Font of Inspiration
Inspiration points: 26
With this build, you'll be able to go nova on your enemies, netting an extra 8 standard actions per encounter to blast enemies with negative energy (at 18d6 a piece). Not only that, Greater Invisibility + Hunter's Eye will give you sneak attack with every blast. Using your Arcane Dillantante for Quick Potion and Fox's Cunning nets you the material component for Mental Pinnacle, getting you that sweet ego whip to use against undead. Necropolitan lets you heal yourself with your blasts, useful since your blasts have a range of 10ft. You have a floating feat for magic item creation and anything else you might need. Not sure if it's the best build, but it might be very fun to play.

[Telonius]

A friendly Bard with Inspire Greatness/Words of Creation/Song of the Heart would bump up your HD by 5.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I don't know how to increase your damage (except having someone Inspire Greatness on you), but you could be Necropolitan and use the negative energy to heal you out of combat without limit.

[Jowgen]

As Khatoblepas points out, Mad Soul is superior to Naberius in this instance, although as a second level vestige it does require 2 binding feats to work. Still well worth not having to spend a class level.

As Beni-Kujaku points out, undeath is a good option, although Tomb Tainted Soul would be a workable as well, especially if you want Craven (which won't work on undead, unless you take the Dragon Mag Coward flaw).

With MinimanMidget's Blend Into Shadows + Darkness combo, if desired, I recommend relying not on the standard Darkness spell, but the Distracting Shadows spell. It's a darkness decriptor spell with an area, so qualifies as an area of magical darkness, and doesn't interfere with your own targeting while still effectively providing a +5 to hide. It can be permanencied if desired for 1000 XP, and if you can arrange to have it heightened to 9th or 10th beforehand, you'll never have to worry about a higher level Light descriptor spell preventing your hide.

Note, you can still pick up Devil's sight with just one level of Warlock, either by spending 20k on a Codex Advocare (Ravenloft) or ranking up in the First Scroll faction for the extra invocation affiliation benefit (Dragon Magic), if you prefer that route. Or the Ebon Eyes spell (or item thereoff) also takes care of the magical darkness thing. Combo with a Ring of the Darkhidden to avoid devils, and of course Darkstalker against most everything else.


All of the above being said, I'd say a Mystic Ranger x Scout Swift Hunter build is just a better fit for this idea.

You will only be attacking 1/round anyway, the movement helps deal with your limited range, and fast progression Ranger spells will make you far more versatile. You could even pick up the Hunter's Eye spell to add 1d6/3CL Sneak Attack that way, using the Dark template's Su HiPS to hide while moving (Heightend Permanencied Distracting Shadows to counter Magical Light, avoid regular daylight otherwise) to trigger SA that way.

Item wise, it's a choice between Bracers of Murder from DotU and Bracer's of the Hunter from SoX. They cost about the same (8k vs 8.5 k), but while the former is a bit better at increasing your damage, the latter comes with Hide and Initiative bonuses. Both work for either SA or Skirmish.

EDIT: On Swift Hunter, obviously go for Arcane Hunter ACF to be able to damage anything that casts arcane spells. Also, check whether you can carry a collection of Enemy Spirit Pouches for all the precision damage immunes to switch out as needed. Also, considering that the weapon styles won't be much use, consider the Shape Chaning variant from UA. You get fast movement and some Druid Wild-shaping, which should still work totally fine with Dark Flames.

[Elves]

Since the ritual is so cheap, I don't know that you need to center the build on it. You can invest in it and take the binder level and simply incorporate it into your full attacks as a nice little boost.

If you want to focus completely on it, 1/round is the issue, since that conflicts with the normal way to maximize SA (multiple attacks).

One trick I know is that Fan the Flames - desert wind maneuver could be read to apply to your ranged touch attack, which would add 6d6 fire. ("If you make a successful ranged touch attack, your target takes 6d6 points of fire damage.")

[Thurbane]

Great advice and feedback everyone. :smallsmile:

Does anyone know a way to increase the range of a supernatural ability, besides the Enlarge Supernatural Ability feat, which has daily usage restriction?

Are there any other "meta-supernatural" feats or abilities besides the feats in ToM?

[Jowgen]

Does anyone know a way to increase the range of a supernatural ability, besides the Enlarge Supernatural Ability feat, which has daily usage restriction?

Closest thing I can think of are the Horizon Goggles from complete mage, but as written they just miss the mark: "These goggles also increase the range of spells and spelllike abilities that require ranged attack rolls by 50%." But even if it worked, an extra 5 ft is hardly worth it. :smallfrown:

Shall have a gander tomorrow, see if I can find anything else. Maybe one of the dragon mag beholder/aberration items or somesuch.

[Crake]

It's not an issue. Just put the darkness on your tooth. Then you can close your mouth and turn it off whenever it's inconvenient. The feat requires you to be within 10 feet of magical darkness; it doesn't require the darkness to be obscuring your space.

Hmm, true I guess, though it still limits your maneuverability, and the enemy could simply take cover inside the magical darkness you're relying on, so it's still an issue.

[Troacctid]

Hmm, true I guess, though it still limits your maneuverability, and the enemy could simply take cover inside the magical darkness you're relying on, so it's still an issue.
Physical barriers block darkness the same way they block light. Cover the darkness, and it won't meaningfully obscure anything. If you don't want to worry about opening and closing your mouth, then you can cast it on your underwear instead. Your clothes will cover it up so it doesn't interfere with your attacks, and you'll still have magical darkness within 10 feet of you at all times.

(Fun fact, this method originated with one of Tasha's apprentices. When the young witch was told to cast continual flame on a brazier, she misheard, and the rest is history. That's what I plan to tell my players if they roll for bardic knowledge, anyway.)

[Crake]

Physical barriers block darkness the same way they block light. Cover the darkness, and it won't meaningfully obscure anything. If you don't want to worry about opening and closing your mouth, then you can cast it on your underwear instead. Your clothes will cover it up so it doesn't interfere with your attacks, and you'll still have magical darkness within 10 feet of you at all times.

(Fun fact, this method originated with one of Tasha's apprentices. When the young witch was told to cast continual flame on a brazier, she misheard, and the rest is history. That's what I plan to tell my players if they roll for bardic knowledge, anyway.)

Oh, I see what you're saying, cast it inside your mouth and you always qualify as being within 10ft even if your mouth is closed. I'm not sure I particularly agree though, as it requires you be within 10ft of an area of magical darkness. If the darkness is being encased in your mouth, it's not really affecting any squares, so I dunno if it counts as being an area of magical darkness.

[Jowgen]

Sadly, none of the routes I looked into for upping the damage turned up anything viable. None of the dragon mag I items I checked seem to work, the Soul Tick symbiont only auto-empowers negative energy spells specifically, and Mastery of Day & Night is Inflict spell specific.

The only viable route might be if we can support the argument that Black Flames can be treated as a Weaponlike Spell, as per the CA rules, which as written only work on spells, but they do elsewhere get said to apply to Eldritch Blast so there might be wiggle room.

What we'd need is a single stat-block example of a creature able to apply Weapon Focus on a similar Supernatural ability.

If so, then the Dead Eye feat becomes viable (we can pick up the prereq from Ranger if going Swift Hunter), meaning we can add Dex to damage, plus add our Favored Enemy damage on it (a whole avenue of damage optimisation in itself).


EDIT:

I think I got a solid precedent to use so we can treat the Dark Flames as Weaponlike for damage optimisation: Spellfire.

Literally a supernatural fire attack you deliver as a standard action with a (ranged) touch attack, so very similar, and the the Spellfire Channeler PrC from MoF gets Weapon Focus (Spellfire) as a feat.

Similarly, the Soul Spark from MoI gets Weapon Focus (Soul Blast), which is a Su ranged attack damage dealer. Plenty of creatures also seem to get Weapon Focus (Incorporeal touch (e.g. Phantasmal Slayer, HoH; Xac-Yij , PlH), and Weapon focus for assorted Supernatural ray attacks (e.g. Vivacious creatures, PlH, Positive Energy Ray; Or Wraith, CotSQ, Enervation Ray). Very weird, the Living Holocaust from FF gets it on it's Fiery Windspike (Ex) attack thing.

Basically, while the CA rules specify "spells", it looks like in reality just about anything that uses an attack roll, does damage and goes in the Attack section of a statblock counts as a Weapon, wether its Ex, Sp, or Su.

[Zarvistic]

The Power Surge feat is probably interesting too. +1 damage per level with a 1 round cooldown sounds pretty good for one feat!