Movement speed without dexterity?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hi!

For some reasons (see the thread in my sig for more details), I have been wondering how to make some creatures without a dexterity score playable. So, creatures without dexterity are unable to move, and they don't have any movement mode. But what happens if they are Alter Self'd or Humanoid Shape'd into something that has a movement speed and a dexterity score. RAW, they should get the movement speed of their new form, but not change their ability score. So what happens? Do they somehow get Dex 1 or something? Are they unable to use their new movement speed (maybe except if the movement speed in question is purely mental, like for an Air Elemental, or a Demilich)? Are they still able to move on land despite not having dexterity, and not being able to move? Although I find the last one, which is the naive RAW approach, hilarious (seeing something looking like an humanoid sliding on the floor at 30ft per round while not being able to move its body and hence having ragdoll physics would be extremely creepy, but pretty cool all things considered) it is very dysfunctional, and I would like if there was something clearly stated about that.

Do you know what is the right interpretation?

[Psyren]

I'd say the "A creature with no dexterity score can't move" trumps any movement speed you gain from the form you assume. Having a movement speed doesn't guarantee that you can move - for example, you can have a movement speed while paralyzed or unconscious. You'll need at least one point of Dex somehow before you can make use of that movement speed.

If you have some way of changing your location that isn't actually movement e.g. teleportation, you can use that.

[Drelua]

Could be interesting to play a character that can't move, maybe a Psion so you don't have to worry about verbal or somatic components. Some form of telepathy would be good, and maybe the psychoportation discipline for short range teleports if you ever do need to move yourself. You'd be better off being small enough to be carried by a strong party member, since I can't think of many ways to get unlimited use teleport, except maybe being polymorphed into a blink dog. I do like the image of the party walking past the same dog lying in the shade a few times a minute. Suppress all the displays on your powers, and not many enemies will likely think to attack you with the rest of the party to keep them occupied. Unless they saw you blink in, that might get their attention.

If you're using PF stuff, the Tactician (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/tactician/)class could be good too. Lets you basically mindlink the whole party, so you can know where they are as long as they don't go too far. It is third party, but most people I've heard from agree that Dreamscarred Press knows what they're doing better than Paizo does.

[Crake]

Psionic flight could potentially let you float around without actually being capable of moving, since the flight is a purely mental action.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Could be interesting to play a character that can't move, maybe a Psion so you don't have to worry about verbal or somatic components. Some form of telepathy would be good, and maybe the psychoportation discipline for short range teleports if you ever do need to move yourself. You'd be better off being small enough to be carried by a strong party member, since I can't think of many ways to get unlimited use teleport, except maybe being polymorphed into a blink dog. I do like the image of the party walking past the same dog lying in the shade a few times a minute. Suppress all the displays on your powers, and not many enemies will likely think to attack you with the rest of the party to keep them occupied. Unless they saw you blink in, that might get their attention.

If you're using PF stuff, the Tactician (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/tactician/)class could be good too. Lets you basically mindlink the whole party, so you can know where they are as long as they don't go too far. It is third party, but most people I've heard from agree that Dreamscarred Press knows what they're doing better than Paizo does.

Psionics are really good if someone can carry you around‚ but you won't be able to psionic flight all day. A level in incarnate and Airstep Sandals might not require movement and allow you to move at-will‚ and at higher levels Dragonfire Adept and Warlock both have permanent fly invocations. I also weirdly really like Truenamer for such a character‚ just for the fact that this class requires almost nothing from the character itself. If it could speak‚ you could play a truenamer rock with almost the same success as an elf. And‚ if you can suffer through the Law of Resistance‚ you could fly for pretty decent periods

[Crake]

Psionics are really good if someone can carry you around‚ but you won't be able to psionic flight all day. A level in incarnate and Airstep Sandals might not require movement and allow you to move at-will‚ and at higher levels Dragonfire Adept and Warlock both have permanent fly invocations. I also weirdly really like Truenamer for such a character‚ just for the fact that this class requires almost nothing from the character itself. If it could speak‚ you could play a truenamer rock with almost the same success as an elf. And‚ if you can suffer through the Law of Resistance‚ you could fly for pretty decent periods

Psionic Overland Flight (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/overlandFlightPsionic.htm) begs to differ. That being said, it's a rather late game power, so getting there might be a problem.

[ShurikVch]

Well, firstly: "Dex -" or "Dex 0"?

"Dex 0" is much easier (magic items, inherent bonus, etc)

For the "Dex -" there are some templates which give speed penalty, but specify: no less than 10'
Since 0 is "less than 10", it may overcome the general "no movement at Dex -"
The templates are:
Corrupted Creature (Dragon #350) LA +5
Mummified Creature (Libris Mortis) LA +4
Stonebone Creature (Dragon #350) LA +2

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well, firstly: "Dex -" or "Dex 0"?

"Dex 0" is much easier (magic items, inherent bonus, etc)

For the "Dex -" there are some templates which give speed penalty, but specify: no less than 10'
Since 0 is "less than 10", it may overcome the general "no movement at Dex -"
The templates are:
Corrupted Creature (Dragon #350) LA +5
Mummified Creature (Libris Mortis) LA +4
Stonebone Creature (Dragon #350) LA +2

It was Dex -, but modifiers to movement speed only work if the movement speed exists in the first place. It doesn't have 0ft movement speed, it just has none. For example, a corrupted whale would not suddenly be able to walk on land. I would be much more confident in Alter Self giving a movement speed than Corrupted, to be honest.

[ShurikVch]

For example, a corrupted whale would not suddenly be able to walk on land.
Are you sure?
Corrupted creatures are, essentially, fictional mutants
Who know what changes would happen with their body...

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It was Dex -, but modifiers to movement speed only work if the movement speed exists in the first place. It doesn't have 0ft movement speed, it just has none.
I don't know which creature you're trying to use, but Shrieker (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm) - one of the very few creatures with "Dex -" (and "Str -" too) have "Speed: 0 ft.", not "none"

Anyway, there are some other templates - such as Symbiotic and Tauric - which say "use physical abilities of creature 1, and mental abilities of creature 2"

[Remuko]

Probably isnt RAW and I dont have access to my books to check anyways but if an undead transforms into something non-undead, id think it would gain a con score while in that form (base 10 + racial mods imo), I dont see why this shouldnt also apply to creatures who have Dex - as part of their nature. If they change into something that has locomotive abilities, they should possess those in that form. So I figure changing form would be the easiest method.

[Venger]

Probably isnt RAW and I dont have access to my books to check anyways but if an undead transforms into something non-undead, id think it would gain a con score while in that form (base 10 + racial mods imo), I dont see why this shouldnt also apply to creatures who have Dex - as part of their nature. If they change into something that has locomotive abilities, they should possess those in that form. So I figure changing form would be the easiest method.

It would depend on the method used to change shape. Some, like alter self, do not change your ability scores. Polymorph gives you your new form's ability scores, so could be used to allow a dex - character to move under their own power.

As far as methods to move not already mentioned, a mount also works.

What creatures specifically were you thinking of using? Off the top of my head I don't think I know any dex - monsters aside from the formian queen which has an ecl booster of like a million.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It would depend on the method used to change shape. Some, like alter self, do not change your ability scores. Polymorph gives you your new form's ability scores, so could be used to allow a dex - character to move under their own power.

As far as methods to move not already mentioned, a mount also works.

What creatures specifically were you thinking of using? Off the top of my head I don't think I know any dex - monsters aside from the formian queen which has an ecl booster of like a million.

I initially started thinking about it for the Shrieker Fungus (which has so many other problems than Dex _‚ such that Psionics or Incarnum would not be really useable) ‚ but if there are other non-dex monsters‚ or if somebody is reduced to 0 dex (less of a problem‚ but still not good) it would be nice to have a more general ruling and possibilities

[ShurikVch]

but if there are other non-dex monsters
At cursory glance - no: besides the Shrieker and Formian Queen, there are no other creatures with Dex —
(Even non-animated objects have Dex 0!)


or if somebody is reduced to 0 dex (less of a problem‚ but still not good) it would be nice to have a more general ruling and possibilities
Presuming Restoration spell line or Naberius are unavailable - Reduce Person gives +2 Dex, and Cat's Grace - +4


I initially started thinking about it for the Shrieker Fungus (which has so many other problems than Dex _‚ such that Psionics or Incarnum would not be really useable)
And why they're not usable?
Because of Int nonability?
There are some templates to fix it - such as Entropic Creature (LA +2), or Symbiotic Creature (LA +1) - since in both cases Int would be bumped to 3; Symbiotic would also fix the Dex problem - as long as Shrieker is the "guest" (stick it on a Shinomen Naga Constrictor - ECL 9 is, apparently, the lowest for Huge size)

[Beni-Kujaku]

At cursory glance - no: besides the Shrieker and Formian Queen, there are no other creatures with Dex —
(Even non-animated objects have Dex 0!)


Presuming Restoration spell line or Naberius are unavailable - Reduce Person gives +2 Dex, and Cat's Grace - +4


And why they're not usable?
Because of Int nonability?
There are some templates to fix it - such as Entropic Creature (LA +2), or Symbiotic Creature (LA +1) - since in both cases Int would be bumped to 3; Symbiotic would also fix the Dex problem - as long as Shrieker is the "guest" (stick it on a Shinomen Naga Constrictor - ECL 9 is, apparently, the lowest for Huge size)

Incarnum because you have literally no item slot to put soulmelds on, you're a mushroom, and psionics because even with 3 int, you can't manifest anything (you need 10+power level). And Symbiot is so obviously broken in next to every way that I always purposely skip it.

[ShurikVch]

Incarnum because you have literally no item slot to put soulmelds on, you're a mushroom
Actually, you have: Heart, Soul, and Totem (if Totemist)

Amorphous Body: A creature with no limbs, head, or discernable anatomical structure (such as a mimic), has access to only two chakras - namely, the heart and soul.

Totem Chakra Bind: At 2nd level, you gain access to a unique chakra: the totem chakra. This chakra is not associated with any location on the body, but rather represents your connection to the wild soul energy of nature, embodied in the magical beasts of the world. When you bind a soulmeld to your totem chakra, you take on characteristics of the creature represented by the meld—usually involving a limited physical transformation. Since the totem chakra doesn’t match a body location, binding a soulmeld to this chakra doesn’t restrict your use of magic items that take up a body location.

[Drelua]

Incarnum because you have literally no item slot to put soulmelds on, you're a mushroom, and psionics because even with 3 int, you can't manifest anything (you need 10+power level). And Symbiot is so obviously broken in next to every way that I always purposely skip it.

You could be an awakened shrieker with a generous GM, 3d6 for each mental stat. Not sure how that would work exactly though, it says an awakened plant can "move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth" but doesn't say they gain a DEX score.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You could be an awakened shrieker with a generous GM, 3d6 for each mental stat. Not sure how that would work exactly though, it says an awakened plant can "move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth" but doesn't say they gain a DEX score.

You can't awaken something other than a tree, sadly. And if you could, you would just become an animated plant, which has the stats of an animated object