What happens when a dragon gains sorcerer class levels?

[Melcar]

A few months back, I made some posts about dragon cohort and some of the mechanics of that... Now, I again have some questions to which I hope you guys might be able to help me with.

So, my cohort has gained some levels, where I now cannot increase its HD anymore, because that would take it into a new age category, so I now have to give it class levels. My thought were to simply give it sorcerer, or a derivative of sorcerer, to take it into either incantatrix or abjurant champion, however I came across something that might discourage me from giving it caster levels at all.

It says that dragons cast spells as a sorcerer equal to the level indicated in the table. For a young red dragon that is CL1. This I understand to believe that on top of the dragon chassis, you simple give it the casting capabilities of a level 1 sorcerer i.e. know spells, and spells per day (with the exception that a red dragon can cast spells from the cleric list and the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domain). That got me thinking:

Since it says a red dragon can cast cleric spells, would I be able to choose cleric spells as known spells when gaining sorcerer class levels or only when gaining the innate casting ability?

If my red dragon cohort already has a few levels of sorcerer when it reaches young age category - and thus gains the innate ability to cast spells as a level 1 sorcerer, does that then mean I have to keep track of two different casting pools? One gained entirely through the sorcerer class and one gained from the innate ability of dragons to cast magic? Or does that mean that it can now cast spells as a level 3 sorcerer?

Also, what if I have chosen the Stalwart sorcerer ACF, would that interfere with spells knows and spells per day, gained from the dragons innate ability or only the spells gained from class levels?

[Fouredged Sword]

The casting would stack. The racial ability to take cleric spells would continue forward as that is a racial feature that applies to their sorcerer casting without restriction on where to comes from.

Treat the dragon RHD as a prestige class that adds +1 level of sorcerer casting at the appropriate levels if you advance by RHD. Keep in mind that class levels don't advance the dragons RHD and it's quite possible to have a 20HD wyrmling dragon if it gets enough class levels.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about taking some PrCs that advance sorcerer-dragon casting? It's not like sorcerer gives you much that a PrC wouldn't, after all, and the chances are that any PrC you take with it will have a better chassis and way more class features.

[Melcar]

The casting would stack. The racial ability to take cleric spells would continue forward as that is a racial feature that applies to their sorcerer casting without restriction on where to comes from.

Treat the dragon RHD as a prestige class that adds +1 level of sorcerer casting at the appropriate levels if you advance by RHD. Keep in mind that class levels don't advance the dragons RHD and it's quite possible to have a 20HD wyrmling dragon if it gets enough class levels.

Ok, so, from the time I get draconic innate casting, everytime I advance in class levels of sorcerer, I would be able to choose cleric spells? Correct? Howabout before the cohort got to young age category?

I'm avare of the class levels vs RHD. That's why the class levels I do take, has to have some good synergies!


How about taking some PrCs that advance sorcerer-dragon casting? It's not like sorcerer gives you much that a PrC wouldn't, after all, and the chances are that any PrC you take with it will have a better chassis and way more class features.

Sure, which ones are you thinking of?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sure, which ones are you thinking of?Do a mix of abjurant champion, war weaver, and (if you can swing it) spellguard of Silverymoon? The first gives a major defensive boost to spells you cast, war weaver allows you to apply them to all party members, and spellguard vastly increases the spells you can use with war weaver via that feat that heals you when you cast a spell? What is it, Magic of the Land, I think?

Whatever you do, get polymorph so you can have your baby dragon turn into an older dragon. I wonder what that would do to its breath weapon.

[ThanatosZero]

Abjurant Champion is a excellent choice, as Martial Arcanist works wonders with the RHD of dragons as their Caster Level will be equal to their own BAB.

IIRC RHD do not count as class levels, otherwise they would gain Epic Attack Bonus after 20 RHD, as such they continue to gain BAB 1 to 1 for each RHD past 20 HDs.
Case in point, the Draconomicon features prestige classes for lesser and true dragons, which have requirements like 30 BAB for Dragon Ascendant and have still listed normal BAB increases in their tables, unlike any other epic prestige classes.

If your DM allows cheese, make your dragon a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Loredrake Sovereign Archetype (Dragons of Eberron) and the Spellhoarding template (Dragon#313).

* Battle Sorcerer use d8 for HD and medium BAB. They gain profiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. They gain profiency with light armor and the ability to cast spells in it. In exchange, they lose for each spell level 1 spells known and 1 spellslot.

* Stalwart Sorcerer gives you +2 HP per level up in it's class, profiency in one martial weapon and weapon focus on it. In exchange, you always know one spell less (to a minimum of 1) at the highest spell level you can cast (If you gain access to higher spell levels you automatically learn a spell known in the now lower spell levels).

* Loredrake increases your effective sorcerer spellcasting by two sorcerer levels for the price of turning your dragon HD from d12 down to d10.

* Spellhoarding gives you +2 INT and -4 WIS, your scales can be used to scribe spells and all your Sorcerer Spellcasting becomes Wizard Spellcasting

Together with these, you become a highly effectice battle wizard, without losing anything on the wizard spellcasting itself.
I recommend to take only 4 levels for to gain not only a weapon profiency for abjurant champion, but to also increase your BAB and Spellcasting effectively. From there take all 5 levels in Abjurant Champion, a 1 level dip in both Dragonslayer and Spellsword each and a prestige class (either Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom) to fill out the rest of your 20 class levels.

From there you just let your dragon age to a great wyrm. They will have maximised spellcasting, high BAB and equally high CL.

As for their Level Adjustment, use this simplefied and more fair LA reduction house rule.
- If you have a LA of 3 and more, you only need to level up once to lower your LA by one.
- If you have a LA of 2, you need to level up twice to lower your LA by one.
- And if you have a LA of 1, you need to level up thrice to lower your LA by one.

Otherwise, I recommend to take a look on the LA Assignment threads for dragons. From the community, by the community, for all DnD players.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825

I wish you a wonderful day and lots of fun for any future sessions. :)

[Melcar]

Abjurant Champion is a excellent choice, as Martial Arcanist works wonders with the RHD of dragons as their Caster Level will be equal to their own BAB.

IIRC RHD do not count as class levels, otherwise they would gain Epic Attack Bonus after 20 RHD, as such they continue to gain BAB 1 to 1 for each RHD past 20 HDs.
Case in point, the Draconomicon features prestige classes for lesser and true dragons, which have requirements like 30 BAB for Dragon Ascendant and have still listed normal BAB increases in their tables, unlike any other epic prestige classes.

If your DM allows cheese, make your dragon a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Loredrake Sovereign Archetype (Dragons of Eberron) and the Spellhoarding template (Dragon#313).

* Battle Sorcerer use d8 for HD and medium BAB. They gain profiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. They gain profiency with light armor and the ability to cast spells in it. In exchange, they lose for each spell level 1 spells known and 1 spellslot.

* Stalwart Sorcerer gives you +2 HP per level up in it's class, profiency in one martial weapon and weapon focus on it. In exchange, you always know one spell less (to a minimum of 1) at the highest spell level you can cast (If you gain access to higher spell levels you automatically learn a spell known in the now lower spell levels).

* Loredrake increases your effective sorcerer spellcasting by two sorcerer levels for the price of turning your dragon HD from d12 down to d10.

* Spellhoarding gives you +2 INT and -4 WIS, your scales can be used to scribe spells and all your Sorcerer Spellcasting becomes Wizard Spellcasting

Together with these, you become a highly effectice battle wizard, without losing anything on the wizard spellcasting itself.
I recommend to take only 4 levels for to gain not only a weapon profiency for abjurant champion, but to also increase your BAB and Spellcasting effectively. From there take all 5 levels in Abjurant Champion, a 1 level dip in both Dragonslayer and Spellsword each and a prestige class (either Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom) to fill out the rest of your 20 class levels.

From there you just let your dragon age to a great wyrm. They will have maximised spellcasting, high BAB and equally high CL.

As for their Level Adjustment, use this simplefied and more fair LA reduction house rule.
- If you have a LA of 3 and more, you only need to level up once to lower your LA by one.
- If you have a LA of 2, you need to level up twice to lower your LA by one.
- And if you have a LA of 1, you need to level up thrice to lower your LA by one.

Otherwise, I recommend to take a look on the LA Assignment threads for dragons. From the community, by the community, for all DnD players.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825

I wish you a wonderful day and lots of fun for any future sessions. :)

Thank you for the detailed post...

Let me see if I understand you correctly: Assuming my DM allows your suggestions, which is highly unlikely btw (its a FR game, and regional things from other campaign setting has so far been a no go), would I be correct in inferring that a spellhoarding loredrake, with 1 level in stalwart battle sorcerer, would have known spells and spells per day as a level 3 wizard? Thus is not being bound by spells per day and knows spells of a sorcerer? Meaning the reduction in spells gained from the stalwart- and battle sorcerer would be ignored?

Would this dragon retain the ability to know and cast cleric (and some domain) spells?

Also, would the reduction in RHD from d12 to d10 be retroactive, meaning I would have to reduce its hp from previous RHD, or only future RHD?

Would I not (pending DM approval) be able to retrain one of the light armor proficiency away? It would seem I gain that multiple times?

[ThanatosZero]

Thank you for the detailed post...

Let me see if I understand you correctly: Assuming my DM allows your suggestions, which is highly unlikely btw (its a FR game, and regional things from other campaign setting has so far been a no go), would I be correct in inferring that a spellhoarding loredrake, with 1 level in stalwart battle sorcerer, would have known spells and spells per day as a level 3 wizard? Thus is not being bound by spells per day and knows spells of a sorcerer? Meaning the reduction in spells gained from the stalwart- and battle sorcerer would be ignored?
Yes, it would be ignored, as all Sorcerer Spellcasting becomes Wizard Spellcasting.


Would this dragon retain the ability to know and cast cleric (and some domain) spells?
I haven't consulted any books for this now, but it should be still possible. Unless further notified, domain spells granted by your dragon side shouldn't be affected by this change, except you have to prepare them as a wizard. If they work exactly like domain spells granted by the domains, you can only prepare 1 spell per spell level of the domain.


Also, would the reduction in RHD from d12 to d10 be retroactive, meaning I would have to reduce its hp from previous RHD, or only future RHD?
It happens retroactively. Just like retraining a class with higher HD results with a loss of 1 HP per HD down.

For example: A Barbarian has d12 HD. At 1st level each player gets their 1st HD maxed out. If you was to retrain the class to Wizard your HD changes to d4 HD, but instead to change it to a maxed d4 HD, you lose only 4 HP (d12 to d10= -1, d12 to d8= -2, d12 to d6= -3 and d12 to d4= -4), meaning you keep extra HP. If you started as a Wizard and retrain yourself as a Barbarian, you get 4 HP and (d4 to d6= +1, ..., d4 to d12= +4) have 8 HP instead of 12 HP.

Now for your dragon. If they have 5 RHD they lose 5 times -1 HP (d12 to d10= -1)


Would I not (pending DM approval) be able to retrain one of the light armor proficiency away? It would seem I gain that multiple times? The DM decides what is allowed or not. If the retraining rules in PHBII allow you to retrain a class feature, then you can do so.

-------------

Now to come back to dragons and creatures in general, which have initiate spellcasting of a class. IIRC it was once said, that the variants of a class doesn't change the initiate spellcasting, but rather advance them without the drawbacks.
It sorta makes sense, as a great wyrm steel dragon for example will have 20/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting. A single level in Stalwart Battle Sorcerer wouldn't rob them of 11 their spells known and 10 spellslots (From Spell levels 0th to 9th ).

[Melcar]

Yes, it would be ignored, as all Sorcerer Spellcasting becomes Wizard Spellcasting.


I haven't consulted any books for this now, but it should be still possible. Unless further notified, domain spells granted by your dragon side shouldn't be affected by this change, except you have to prepare them as a wizard. If they work exactly like domain spells granted by the domains, you can only prepare 1 spell per spell level of the domain.


It happens retroactively. Just like retraining a class with higher HD results with a loss of 1 HP per HD down.

For example: A Barbarian has d12 HD. At 1st level each player gets their 1st HD maxed out. If you was to retrain the class to Wizard your HD changes to d4 HD, but instead to change it to a maxed d4 HD, you lose only 4 HP (d12 to d10= -1, d12 to d8= -2, d12 to d6= -3 and d12 to d4= -4), meaning you keep extra HP. If you started as a Wizard and retrain yourself as a Barbarian, you get 4 HP and (d4 to d6= +1, ..., d4 to d12= +4) have 8 HP instead of 12 HP.

Now for your dragon. If they have 5 RHD they lose 5 times -1 HP (d12 to d10= -1)

The DM decides what is allowed or not. If the retraining rules in PHBII allow you to retrain a class feature, then you can do so.

-------------

Now to come back to dragons and creatures in general, which have initiate spellcasting of a class. IIRC it was once said, that the variants of a class doesn't change the initiate spellcasting, but rather advance them without the drawbacks.
It sorta makes sense, as a great wyrm steel dragon for example will have 20/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting. A single level in Stalwart Battle Sorcerer wouldn't rob them of 11 their spells known and 10 spellslots (From Spell levels 0th to 9th ).

Thanks...

Was I correct in inferring that a spellhoarding loredrake, with 1 level in stalwart battle sorcerer, would have known spells and spells per day as a level 3 wizard?

[ThanatosZero]

Thanks...

Was I correct in inferring that a spellhoarding loredrake, with 1 level in stalwart battle sorcerer, would have known spells and spells per day as a level 3 wizard?

Yes, that is even before the initial spellcasting comes online on it's own.



Question, does your red dragon cohort age to a young dragon?
If it is turning to young, they will have 13 RHD and LA+6 (LA+3 with the dragon cohort feat)

As a spellhoarding loredrake dragon 13/stalwart battle sorcerer 1/abjurant champion 3 they will have a ECL of 20

Seriously... how the heck is the cohort even contributung properly to a party with each member having a ECL of 17? At that point your cohort takes their first level in stalwart battle sorcerer, while a 17 level wizard/cleric starts to rip apart the cosmos.

Say you what, ask your DM, if it is more fair to give your red dragon sorcerer spellcasting equal their RHD-3 and eliminate the LA down to 0. It isn't worth it to give it LA (Click me!). (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread&p=21295477&viewfull=1#post21295477)

Atleast then a spellhoarding loredrake dragon 13/stalwart battle sorcerer 1/abjurant champion 3/ will be able to contribute properly as a 16th level wizard and 16 BAB at ECL 17.

To note: A Wizard with the Militia feat (Profiency in all martial weapons) can take after the 5th Wizard Level, levels in Eldritch Knight. And after 3 levels in Eldritch Knight, all levels in Abjurant Champion, before going back to Eldritch Knight.

Militia Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +7 (10)

At ECL 20, 17 BAB and 19/20 Wizard Spellcasting
At ECL 17, 14 BAB and 16/20 Wizard Spellcasting

--------------------------------------------

Edit: I stand correct that RHD do not count as class levels, but I came to know, that you do not need to level up in the base class first, for a PrC to advance it. As such only Spellhoarding and Loredrake will be enough.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630366-3-5-Rules-Clarification-Racial-Casting-amp-PrCs
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060811a

In this case, your red dragon takes 1 level dip in dragonslayer (I am gonna kill metal dragons, gain profiency in all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields, get immunity against fear and +1 advancement for spellcasting) and then 5 levels in Abjurant Champion.

Now for the black dragon example in the article, let us count together the RHD and the class levels on the black dragon.

1.) Mavarothix With Seven Class Levels
Has 34 RHD + 4 levels in Cleric + 3 levels in Mystic Theurge
BAB= 38 (34+3+1)

2.) Mavarothix With Ten Class Levels
Has 37 RHD + 4 levels in Cleric + 6 levels in Mystic Theurge
BAB= 43 (37+3+3)

[Melcar]

Yes, that is even before the initial spellcasting comes online on it's own.

Sweet, thanks!




Question, does your red dragon cohort age to a young dragon?
If it is turning to young, they will have 13 RHD and LA+6 (LA+3 with the dragon cohort feat)


Yes! My initial plan was to level its RHD first, and keep the RHD as high as possible and add in class levels, whenever I'm unable to leved its RHD/ advance its age!



Seriously... how the heck is the cohort even contributung properly to a party with each member having a ECL of 17? At that point your cohort takes their first level in stalwart battle sorcerer, while a 17 level wizard/cleric starts to rip apart the cosmos.

Say you what, ask your DM, if it is more fair to give your red dragon sorcerer spellcasting equal their RHD-3 and eliminate the LA down to 0. It isn't worth it to give it LA (Click me!). (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread&p=21295477&viewfull=1#post21295477)

Atleast then a spellhoarding loredrake dragon 13/stalwart battle sorcerer 1/abjurant champion 3/ will be able to contribute properly as a 16th level wizard and 16 BAB at ECL 17.

While I like it, I'm fairly certain my DM, won't allow that. He's usually not one to change things up too much, especially with things he doesn't know very well. The stuff we've been talking about here is new to me, so my DM hasn't heard about any of this either...




To note: A Wizard with the Militia feat (Proficiency in all martial weapons) can take after the 5th Wizard Level, levels in Eldritch Knight. And after 3 levels in Eldritch Knight, all levels in Abjurant Champion, before going back to Eldritch Knight.

Militia Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +7 (10)

At ECL 20, 17 BAB and 19/20 Wizard Spellcasting
At ECL 17, 14 BAB and 16/20 Wizard Spellcasting


I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to tell me here...




Edit: I stand correct that RHD do not count as class levels, but I came to know, that you do not need to level up in the base class first, for a PrC to advance it. As such only Spellhoarding and Loredrake will be enough.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630366-3-5-Rules-Clarification-Racial-Casting-amp-PrCs
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060811a

In this case, your red dragon takes 1 level dip in dragonslayer (I am gonna kill metal dragons, gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields, get immunity against fear and +1 advancement for spellcasting) and then 5 levels in Abjurant Champion.


Isn't dragonslayer quite feat heavy? (i do see that one of them is also prerequisites for abjurant champ), but while I do want the dragon to be capable at casting spells, I also want to have it be capable as a dragon. I would not be too keen on using all its feats on prerequisites for class levels. I mean its my mount, so it will be into combat, it will need to be able to hover, it will need to be able to strafe with its breath... so that's already 4 feats... not counting all the prerequisites... Depending on the utility of trying to optimize its spellcasting vs optimizing its natural weapons and ability to flyby attack, flyby breath, and strafe breath, I might be willing to forgo some of its more classic dragon abilities for more spellcasting, but hover I definitely want... Is there possible something better? Again, I simply does not know what yields more utility, going all out on spellcasting or going all out on breath and natural weapons... or a mix even?

We already have a one dedicated conjurer/incantatric in the group and a divine metamagic cleric, so it doesn't have to carry the party with its casting, its simply a little extra. Don't get my wrong, I would like better spellcasting than what a normal dragon has, but not to the point is sucks at everyting else... So its going to be a balancing act. Essentially I have no free slots atm... so thats why I initially just thought about going straight sorcerer...

[ThanatosZero]

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to tell me here...
Just showcasing a comparison in regards to the stats.


Isn't dragonslayer quite feat heavy? (i do see that one of them is also prerequisites for abjurant champ), but while I do want the dragon to be capable at casting spells, I also want to have it be capable as a dragon. I would not be too keen on using all its feats on prerequisites for class levels. I mean its my mount, so it will be into combat, it will need to be able to hover, it will need to be able to strafe with its breath... so that's already 4 feats... not counting all the prerequisites... Depending on the utility of trying to optimize its spellcasting vs optimizing its natural weapons and ability to flyby attack, flyby breath, and strafe breath, I might be willing to forgo some of its more classic dragon abilities for more spellcasting, but hover I definitely want... Is there possible something better? Again, I simply does not know what yields more utility, going all out on spellcasting or going all out on breath and natural weapons... or a mix even?
yes, it is feat heavy, nut I just thought you had the feats for it to spare. Hehehe...
Then again you make a good point.


We already have a one dedicated conjurer/incantatric in the group and a divine metamagic cleric, so it doesn't have to carry the party with its casting, its simply a little extra. Don't get my wrong, I would like better spellcasting than what a normal dragon has, but not to the point is sucks at everyting else... So its going to be a balancing act. Essentially I have no free slots atm... so thats why I initially just thought about going straight sorcerer...
I see now and that makes sense. Then go Battle Stalwart Sorcerer for one level and then five levels Abjurant Champion. Atleast their CL will be helpful with Martial Arcanist.
And if you go epic later, just tell your DM to drop the LA, once you are there.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am not 100% sure that taking a level of stalwart battle sorcerer would not still cost you one spell per day at every spell level, despite the switch to wizard casting from loredrake. I would have to read carefully. You obviously don't care about spells known anymore, but you also lose one spell at every spell level from spells per day, and you still have those.

[ThanatosZero]

I am not 100% sure that taking a level of stalwart battle sorcerer would not still cost you one spell per day at every spell level, despite the switch to wizard casting from loredrake. I would have to read carefully. You obviously don't care about spells known anymore, but you also lose one spell at every spell level from spells per day, and you still have those.
Alternatively his red dragon cohort could instead take a level in Fighter and go straight from there into Abjurant Champion. A 1 level delay may be acceptable.

[Melcar]

I am not 100% sure that taking a level of stalwart battle sorcerer would not still cost you one spell per day at every spell level, despite the switch to wizard casting from loredrake. I would have to read carefully. You obviously don't care about spells known anymore, but you also lose one spell at every spell level from spells per day, and you still have those.

Hmm... I didn't think about that. That would diminish the idea somewhat... 3 spells per day, per level as a wizard is no a whole lot. Granted the dragon is not primarily a spellcaster - if that was what I wanted, I would have made my normal cohort a wizard - but it would be nice for it to be able to support the party with its spells. That why I especially like that it gets access to cleric spells.

Have you had the opportunity to carefully read the loredrake rules yet?


Alternatively his red dragon cohort could instead take a level in Fighter and go straight from there into Abjurant Champion. A 1 level delay may be acceptable.

Indeed, its that pesky martial weapon proficiency and combat casting I need (for abjurant champion that is)... fighter, it doesn't seem like - on the face of it - to be the most optimal class to give it... not that I dislike your suggestions or anything like that, it just isn't what I have envisioned I guess :smallsmile:

I wonder if there might be other classes, that might give something equal to the utillity of abjurant champion? I guess I'm asking if abjurant champion is indeed the best class to pursue? I really like it, but needing two feats, in an already feat starved chassis is tough...