How does the Rune Knight Stack up vs the Battle Master?

[Yakmala]

I've played Battle Masters before and enjoyed them but have yet to try the Rune Knight. Both are Fighters with special skills with limited uses that recover on short rest.

I love the flavor of the Rune Knight, and the runes seem powerful, especially Hill and Storm, but I'm worried about how limited their use is.

As a Battle Master, I start with 4 superiority dice. This goes up to 5 at level 7 and 6 at level 15. In addition, the power of the dice rises with level.

Rune Knights on the other hand, can only use each rune once per rest until 15th level, after which it goes up to two. Unlike the Battle Master though, this is one use per rune and lasts a minute, rather than a pool of 4-6 uses that last a single action and are shared by all maneuvers.

My main concern is how the Rune Knight holds up over a typical adventuring day. Unless you have a DM that hands out short rests like candy, you are very limited in the use of your best runes until you make it 3/4ths of the way to 20.

For those with experience playing the Tasha's version of the Rune Knight, did you find the restrictions on rune use too limiting?

[MrStabby]

Rune knight is pretty good.

So runes feel a bit like warlock spells in terms of two per short rest and whilst this is tight - as you note they last a while rather than being one attack and done.

Your runes also give you passive abilities so you are more effecive out of combat as well.

It is also worth noting that the rune knight doesnt just get the runes at level 3, you also get Giant might prof bonus times per long rest.


And at 7th level runic shield is pretty sweet... and you get another rune.

And at 10th level another rune...

And at 15th level double uses...

So Rune knight is marginally behind on number of cool things to do at 3rd level whilst having each be more powerful and longer lived... but the number grows quickly and my personal view is that most of the runes are great and fill different niches so it isn't like manuvres where your higher level ones are much less desirable than the first ones you get.

[carrdrivesyou]

I rarely play full fighters, but I have seen quite a few of both in my games. Overall, I can't complain about either subclass much. They both do a solid job at fightering. You tailor both to suit a particular playstyle, selecting maneuvers or runes to support that idea, and apply them a few times per short rest. assuming you get 2 shorts and a long rest per day, neither subclass will be falling behind in any capacity. I think that the BM hedges out slightly ahead starting around mid levels though, while the RK is better for low level games or a few level dip into fighter. The RK leans towards strength based builds because of the Giant's Might feature, while the BM could be a dex based duelist.

Ultimately, you can pick either of these based on preference and still bring a solid character to the table. It's really up to you.

[ZRN]

The BM is very front-loaded, so it’ll feel (and probably is) better than any other fighter subclass from levels 3-6. If you’re in a campaign that Peter’s out by level 10, or if you plan on multiclassing, BM is very hard to beat. Level 7+, though, BM is subject to diminishing returns while most other subclasses keep getting cool NEW stuff, so if you expect the campaign to go past maybe level 10 and you’re sticking with the fighter class, RK and other subclasses start looking more interesting.

[Man_Over_Game]

Haven't seen the RK in action, but I will say that the two things you aren't asking about are your giant-form (which makes you large and deal extra damage), and the fact that your runes scale with your Constitution Modifier (meaning it actually multi classes very well with caster stuff).

Find a way to cast Haste on yourself, and you'll probably out-damage almost anything.

[HPisBS]

... your giant-form (which makes you large and deal extra damage)...

Not that much extra damage. It's limited to 1 extra die per round.

[Man_Over_Game]

Not that much extra damage. It's limited to 1 extra die per round.

Whoops, my bad. Good point!

Although, that would mean that the RK is actually really good for mages. Having an entire subclass that scales off of Constitution and only needs one attack per turn means you don't need to take Fighter to level 5 to get the full value off of it, and that Action Surge can still go a long way.

The way I see it, RK is probably our best multiclassing subclass for Fighter so far. It's how multiclassing content should be. It's not quite rivaling Paladin multiclasses, but that's more of a toxic, one-trick synergy in the first place and probably shouldn't be a standard.

[Thunderous Mojo]

In terms of applying effects to creatures, no Battlemaster maneuvers exceed the Stone Rune, the Cloud Rune, or the Fire Rune.

The Incapacitation condition from the Stone Rune is not removed by the target taking damage. An Enchanter's Hypnotic Gaze ends if the Enchanter moves away, or if the subject of the ability takes damage.

The Stone Rune lets you beat up on something, with no reprisal.
If the party "Focuses all firepower on the Super Star Destroyer" the monster is likely going down fast.

The Cloud Rune lets you negate a Critical Hit on an ally, from 30' away, and potentially transfer that damage to a foe. Once the Rune Knight is 7th level the Runic Shield ability allows the Cloud Rune to be more focused on dealing damage.

The Fire Runes lets you Restrain a creature and do Fire damage.
Each one of these powers scales very well into higher tier.

Any creature that is hit with a Disintegration spell whilst being Restrained, is going to have a tense Saving Throw roll.

In addition to this Runic Shield offers more opportunities to cancel Critical Hits, and Giant's Might lets you HULK out.

And there is even more, than that!
Just what I detailed above is an excellent power package, and there is more.🃏

[x3n0n]

The way I see it, RK is probably our best multiclassing subclass for Fighter so far. It's how multiclassing content should be. It's not quite rivaling Paladin multiclasses, but that's more of a toxic, one-trick synergy in the first place and probably shouldn't be a standard.

To be fair, the Echo Knight also looks pretty good here, although it's better for mixing with classes that want to make melee attacks while not in melee and don't have a lot of bonus action clog. (And it also has a useful 3rd-level ability that scales with Con.)

EK/Ancestral Guardian has a lot of synergy (there's a nice one in the Fun and Effective Builds thread).
EK is also the best way I've found to use Circle of Spores Druid. (Action Surge even lets you bring up your Symbiotic Form and attack in the first round.)
EK/Paladin also looks pretty good (but, as you said, everything Paladin looks pretty good). In particular, you make melee attacks from its space, so you can Smite, Improved or otherwise.

[Man_Over_Game]

EK/Ancestral Guardian has a lot of synergy (there's a nice one in the Fun and Effective Builds thread).


Trying to find it, but the table-of-contents doesn't do a good job of actually describing what the builds are made of. I'm a big fan of EK/AG hybrids, and I'd like to see what other people's priorities are in the combo. Can you give me a link?

[x3n0n]

Trying to find it, but the table-of-contents doesn't do a good job of actually describing what the builds are made of. I'm a big fan of EK/AG hybrids, and I'd like to see what other people's priorities are in the combo. Can you give me a link?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511 ("The Ancestral Avenger")

It's a full Ludic build with all the details, but the gist is EK to 5 (Sentinel & GWM), AG to 3, then EK the rest of the way.
Lots of fun synergies.

[Man_Over_Game]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511 ("The Ancestral Avenger")

It's a full Ludic build with all the details, but the gist is EK to 5 (Sentinel & GWM), AG to 3, then EK the rest of the way.
Lots of fun synergies.

Thanks, I see it now. Seems he focuses heavily on damage over utility, but with that focus I'd just go full Echo Knight. Personally, I'm more of a fan of the utility of the EchoK than the damage. You can stall your Extra Attack for a long while if you pick up PAM as a Variant Human or at level 4, since the EchoK already gives you more attacks on top of Action Surge. With PAM + EchoK, you're already averaging 3 attacks per round, on a build that needs a single hit to tank effectively, so it won't matter if you don't get Extra Attack until level 8 or whatever. Otherwise, you're basically looking at a normal AG with Reach, or a generic attack-spamming Fighter, for a long while.

The extra AG powers also grant THP to your Echo and allies, getting more longevity from your Echo and enhancing your tank powers for when you're not being focused. For me, the unique part of the build is the tank factor - anyone can deal moar damage - so 3 levels into Fighter are what I think is necessary. Although I can't dispute that GWM on an attack-spammer like the EchoK isn't a great combo, just a different priority.

[x3n0n]

Thanks, I see it now. Seems he focuses heavily on damage over utility, but with that focus I'd just go full Echo Knight. Personally, I'm more of a fan of the utility of the EchoK, you can stall your Extra Attack for a long while if you pick up PAM as a Varian Human or at level 4, since the EchoK already gives you more attacks on top of Action Surge. With PAM + EchoK, you're already averaging 3 attacks per round, on a build that needs a single hit to tank effectively, so it won't matter if you don't get Extra Attack until level 8 or whatever. Otherwise, you're basically looking at a normal AG with Reach, or a generic attack-spamming Fighter, for a long while.

There are some weird anti-combos with PAM and (nitpicky RAW) EK, which is one reason that I wouldn't go there first.

* the "incoming" PAM opportunity attack only applies to you, not to your echo (it only gets opportunity attacks under very specific conditions that don't notice the reach of your weapon: "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space")
* the PAM BA can't go from the echo, since it's not the Attack action: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space."

I think EK + Sentinel does a pretty respectable job of messing with your opponent's plan for the first 5 levels (assuming that said plan involves being in melee with your party), and then the 3 levels of AG ramp that WAY up (including giving disadvantage on all attacks against the echo).

That said--you do you!

[stoutstien]

In a straight-up damage comparison the Battle Masters going to be ahead for most of each fighter's career but not enough to show in most scenarios. The real challenge is that all the rune saves are going to be based on your Constitution modifier compared to the Battle Master getting away with a single stat. Not a deal breaker but it's a factor.

Can't overlook the utility of the passive traits of each of the runes as well.

IMO the RK is a better designed fighter.

[Man_Over_Game]

There are some weird anti-combos with PAM and (nitpicky RAW) EK, which is one reason that I wouldn't go there first.

* the "incoming" PAM opportunity attack only applies to you, not to your echo (it only gets opportunity attacks under very specific conditions that don't notice the reach of your weapon: "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space")
* the PAM BA can't go from the echo, since it's not the Attack action: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space."

I think EK + Sentinel does a pretty respectable job of messing with your opponent's plan for the first 5 levels (assuming that said plan involves being in melee with your party), and then the 3 levels of AG ramp that WAY up (including giving disadvantage on all attacks against the echo).

That said--you do you!


That's why you don't start with EchoK, you start with AG. Pick up EchoK after you go 3 levels into AG, and now you're just building more synergies on a build that already works well.

The other benefit of PAM + EchoK is the ability to make your Echo flee. The reach essentially adds +10 speed to it for the sake of hitting-and-running, so you'll get a lot more mileage out of it and it won't get caught in any AoEs. Doesn't sound that useful, until you mix in the fact that AG's taunt has no range for your allies or your enemies, so you can hit someone and then swap places with your Echo to leave them taunted and useless for a round.

[eunwoler]

We're playing past level 10 ever?


Anyway RK has more out of combat utility but BM outdamages everybody early on including RK. But if you manage or start at later levels for some reason RK is probably better

[Lycurgon]

My only experience with the Rune Knight was an 11th level One shot. We had 3 combats in a row without a rest and I felt I had enough abilities to last me though.
I took PAM and GWM and therefore had a lot of Reactions and Bonus Actions to choose from. That meant I wasn't using my Rune Knight abilities every turn because I was using the feat abilities instead so made the Runes last longer than they might have otherwise.

By the end of the third fight I had used all of my Runes but still had some uses of Giants Might and Runic Shield left.

Not sure how it plays at lower levels, but I think it will have plenty of power to go around. Giants Might and most of the Runes have good durations and will keep you going long enough that you won't need to use everything in the first few rounds of combat.

[Thunderous Mojo]

We're playing past level 10 ever?
I hope so. It is really, quite fun, (and I am speaking as a DM)

The key to a long campaign has the same necessary component as the key to a long marriage: don't quit. 🃏

I've read accounts of people whom, (like myself), have been playing since 1980, and have never advanced past 10th and have never cast a 6th level or higher spell.
It tends to engender a bit of melancholy in me.

I highly recommend that people try to experience a 1st to 20th campaign at least once. While it takes a long time, and not every character will make it, it is a very fulfilling experience.

[Mitchellnotes]

In some ways, i would compare rune knight more with Barbarian given giant growth and hill giant rune (advantage on str checks and resists, coming back on a short rest keeping somewhat on pace with rages/long rest). Rune knight also heavily utilizes reactions, which gives great action economy (though BM gets a lot of abilities that can be tacked on to attacks). Psychic warrior is likely a better direct comparison to BM (but like others have said, BM just has more options early on, with psychic warrior having more options later on)

[Yakmala]

These are some great insights!

I'm curious as to how everyone who has played one is building their Rune Knights. Fighters typically make great use of Feats such as Polearm Mastery and Crossbow Expert but the Rune Knight's abilities tend to hog bonus actions and reactions [Bonus action for Frost Rune, Hill Rune, Storm Rune and Giant's Might and Reaction for Cloud Rune, Stone Rune and Runic Shield].

Unarmed Combat Style also looks tempting, and would help keep hands free for grappling, but there are only two non-homebrew magic items in the game that boost unarmed attacks and it's not a given my character would encounter either. And while there's little doubt a Rune Knight can be the best grappler in the game, I would want grappling to be an option, not the only option.

I'm also not that inclined to multi-class, unless I know the campaign isn't going past level 10. If there's a good chance of eventually hitting 15, I feel the Rune Knight wants to get there as quickly as possible.

[Mitchellnotes]

These are some great insights!

I'm curious as to how everyone who has played one is building their Rune Knights. Fighters typically make great use of Feats such as Polearm Mastery and Crossbow Expert but the Rune Knight's abilities tend to hog bonus actions and reactions [Bonus action for Frost Rune, Hill Rune, Storm Rune and Giant's Might and Reaction for Cloud Rune, Stone Rune and Runic Shield].

Unarmed Combat Style also looks tempting, and would help keep hands free for grappling, but there are only two non-homebrew magic items in the game that boost unarmed attacks and it's not a given my character would encounter either. And while there's little doubt a Rune Knight can be the best grappler in the game, I would want grappling to be an option, not the only option.

I'm also not that inclined to multi-class, unless I know the campaign isn't going past level 10. If there's a good chance of eventually hitting 15, I feel the Rune Knight wants to get there as quickly as possible.

I would have a hard time multiclassing as well. Because rune knights have so many uses for reactions an bonus actions, some of the typical go-to's aren't quite as appealing. Feats that don't utilize bonus actions or reactions are really good. Getting the ability to get advantage on str checks also is very nice and opens up a lot of possibilities. With GWM you can shove prone, then attack with advantage. Lets you make use of it, but doesnt define your playstyle. Same with shield master if you go that route. The tashas that focus on damage types are also really good bc they typically dont require anything in particular in terms of actions.

You also can't go wrong getting con bonuses. Some of the runes have very nice efects that key off of constitution. Maxing str and con could be very viable itself.

Personally, id love it if there was some magic item support for thrown weapons. If i could get a dart or dagger of returning, id totally make a shield and thrown weapon rune knight. Same with unarmed. Was there a tattoo in tashas that gave magic unarmed attacks?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

These are some great insights!

I'm curious as to how everyone who has played one is building their Rune Knights. Fighters typically make great use of Feats such as Polearm Mastery and Crossbow Expert but the Rune Knight's abilities tend to hog bonus actions and reactions [Bonus action for Frost Rune, Hill Rune, Storm Rune and Giant's Might and Reaction for Cloud Rune, Stone Rune and Runic Shield].

Unarmed Combat Style also looks tempting, and would help keep hands free for grappling, but there are only two non-homebrew magic items in the game that boost unarmed attacks and it's not a given my character would encounter either. And while there's little doubt a Rune Knight can be the best grappler in the game, I would want grappling to be an option, not the only option.

I'm also not that inclined to multi-class, unless I know the campaign isn't going past level 10. If there's a good chance of eventually hitting 15, I feel the Rune Knight wants to get there as quickly as possible.


One option is to see if your DM will let you play a Simic Guardian. Then you can grapple with tentacles and still wield a weapon.