dex based barbarian/rogue build concept

[dehro]

I'm trying to see if the character concept would be viable and effective as a tank.. and if not..if there are ways to improve his effectiveness whilst still retaining the basic concept.
THIS IS NOT FOR ANY CAMPAIGN I AM CURRENTLY PLAYING. IT'S PURELY AN EXERCISE

so far I have this

Ghostwise Halfling (ghostwise for flavour, the better choice would probably be Stout)
Abilities: 13,15(+2),15,11,9(+1),8.

starting with Barbarian 3, for bear totem, then switching to rogue 3 for Scout (or possibly phantom, more for flavour than effectiveness, I reckon scout is the better option).
I could also go the other way and start with rogue...
I don't have a clear favourite for background.


Is this a decent base for an effective tank-y character or not? I could go barb4/rogue4 for the extra ability improvements to raise the AC, or for the tough feat... and so on..
ideas? how do I improve on this concept? how would you complete the progression to level 20?
How would you do it instead keeping in mind that the flavour and main thing of this character should be a dex based tank and that I dislike monks in general?

[Zhorn]

I wouldn't call it 'tank-y'. I mean bear totems make good damage sponges, but if you're going the scout direction that's more about kiting and evading. Good for survivability, not so much for keeping enemies focused on you instead of just targeting your allies for easier targets.

Phantom makes for an interesting pairing as an owlbear. Reckless for ensuring every attack is a Sneak Attack if it hits, and Wails of the Dead will makes for some pretty decent cleave potential.

If set on the tanking route, you'll want something to lock enemies from getting to other targets, or keep their attention on you. Sentinel is the usual go-to, but scout using reactions to get away from enemies isn't exactly a compatible ability.

Then there's the trade off with the barbarian levels for rogue levels, the added evasiveness is fun, but it is sacrificing your hp potential, which is an even bigger loss to the bear totem since the expanded resistances mean each hitpoint is more likely to be pulling double its value.

I don't have a clear solution, just highlighting what I see.

[Dork_Forge]

Dex Barbarians I guess can work, but almost everything for the Barbarian is tied to Str, you'd forgo the Rage damage bump, be unable to Reckless...

Why did you want to go Dex primary on this? Did you just want a Dex based tank in general and the resistances appealed?


If that is the case, personally I'd go for HP tanking on the Rogue, you'd get Uncanny and Evasion to back that up anyway and you can pick up some abilities to accompany it.

Otherwise a Barbarian/Rogue works wonderfully with Strength too.

[JellyPooga]

When dealing with anything Barbarian, you really have to ask the question; Why not Strength?

The advantage of being Dex-based is multifaceted, but Barbarian uniquely benefits directly from Strength. This means you literally lose features by not investing in Strength, if not actually making it your primary.

If the question is Rogue/Barbarians; can they be tanks? Then absolutely, yes. As Zhorn points out, Scout is not the best for this. You'll also want to get Uncanny Dodge as soon as reasonably possible. Barbarian 1 gives you Resistance to most damage you'll likely be taking in Tier 1, so Barbarian 1/Rogue 5 is a good starting point. Then taking Barbarian to 3rd level to nab Bear Totem to gain resistance to other forms of damage (if that's going to be your focus; other subclasses/options might give you).

Medium Armour is absolutely solid for a Tank Barb/Rogue; Half-Plate and Shield offers a very respectable AC of 19 with only 14 in Dex. Studded Leather and Shield with Dex 20 offers the same AC for much higher Dex investment. In order to multiclass Barbarian, you require Str 13, so the investment to bump that to 14 is minimal and you gain far more from Barbarian features by switching that Str/Dex investment to prioritise Str.

One of the best Tank races in the game is Hill Dwarf. The Con boost (assuming non-Trasha's) and +1HP/lvl is unquestionably valuable. The lower speed of a dwarf doesn't really matter, given Cunning Action and a general predilection towards standing still. Using 27pt-buy;
Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 14+2=16, Wis: 13+1=14, Int: 9, Cha: 8
This is a very viable starting array for someone looking to be a damage sponge and gives you the option of focusing Str or Dex as you move forward, if you still want to make that choice (or if you're lucky enough to score Gloves/Belt of Strength boosting goodness). The resistance to Poison damage is also nice, if incidental.

[ragnorack1]

My two favourite barb/rogue builds for both mechanical and thematic reasons are bear totem/scout and ancestral guardian/phantom. In both cases I'd recommend going 5 in barbarian for extra attack and then focus on rogue.

However the totem/scout I feel benefits from being strength based and making use of reckless for sneak attacks, using athletics expertise for grappling which can sometimes work nicely alongside the reaction movement whrn there is a handy hazard to throw them into.

Ancestral/phantom could work as strength but I think would work better if you want to be dex based as being able to tag the nastiest foe from a distance to give him disadvantage hit allies and them resistance while making it difficult to get close/hit you with your high Ac.

[da newt]

Put expertise into athletics and grapple = a fine tank.

Just for fun, I'd recommend using the Tasha's floating ASI boosts and the Vendalkin race from Ravnica for ST and CON save proff with ADV on DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA saves. Combined w/ BEAR totem, I'd think your survivability would be great.

I'd also recommend just 14 DEX, and MAX ST then CON will probably be more effective than MAX DEX. Attack w/ a finesse weapon and ST for rage bonus damage and sneak attack damage (and even better grappling).

If you can find a way to fly, then grapple drop becomes a nice combo.

[dehro]

all nice and interesting combos..
I started out thinking of something of a "naked" high mobility barbarian with some added utility and sneakiness, going for the unarmored defense angle...
I understand that there are more minmaxy/efficient ways to build such a character, so I'll look into your suggestions.
I don't feel that renouncing the extra 2 points of damage from rage is such a big deal when using finesse weapons (but then, the rapier can be used as finesse, doesn't actually have to, so I can always flip between both options)..
I'm still thinking that a dex based build with gauntlets of ogre might could be aswesome.. but then, the unarmored defense does have a capstone that medium armour probably can improve on.
I guess I should leave minmaxing to those that have a greater grasp of the maths behind it.

[RogueJK]

If you're going to be forgoing STR and therefore giving up the Rage Damage Bonus and Reckless Attacks anyway, there's little reason not to use Ranged weapons on this DEX-based Barbarian/Rogue build, going something like an Ancestral Guardians Barbarian 3 or 5/Scout Rogue 3+, and being a ranged kiter.

While raging, attack an enemy with a ranged weapon, then move away from them up to your full movement. (Even better if you have Crossbow Expert and are using a Hand Crossbow, since you gain an extra Bonus Action attack each turn. But you can also Bonus Action Dash for double movement in a turn when needed.)

The first enemy you hit on your turn now has Disadvantage on attacks against any ally except you thanks to Ancestral Protectors, and even if they hit another ally, your allies also have Resistance against the damage. So if they go after someone else, they'll only do minimal damage. And if the enemy tries to close with you, since you're its best option to land a hit and score some damage, you're already a good distance from them, and even if they do close with you just use your Skirmisher Reaction to move up to half your movement distance away, hopefully outside of their movement range since they've already burned some movement getting to you the first time. Rinse and repeat.

Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter are must-haves here. Sharpshooter gets you added range for your Hand Crossbows, but you won't be using the -5/+10 every attack since you want to ensure you're landing hits for Sneak Attack and to proc Ancestral Protectors. However, if you have multiple attacks in a turn (2 with XBE, or 3 with XBE and Barbarian 5's Extra Attack), you can attack normally until you land your first hit for Sneak Attack and Ancestral Protectors, and only then cue the -5/+10 on any remaining attacks that turn for potential added damage.

The only downside is that the strategy falls apart a bit if you're having to fight in enclosed areas where there's not a lot of room to get away. But worst case scenario, if you're in an enclosed area and can't get away, or else fighting a high mobility enemy who manages to close with you and you've run out of movement to get away, you still have a decent AC from Unarmored Defense and Resistance to B/P/S damage from Rage, and thanks to XBE you can still make Hand Crossbow attacks against the adjacent enemy without penalty the next turn to trigger Sneak Attack/Ancestral Guardians, and then potentially Bonus Action Disengage to get away and try again to evade them, starting the cycle over again. And if you won't be able to get away anyway when the enemy closes, you can just use your Reaction on Uncanny Dodge (from Rogue 5+) instead of Skirmisher, for further damage prevention.


I'd likely do something like a Small sized Custom Lineage with Crossbow Expert feat, with Point Buy stats of:
STR 13 (useless, but necessary for Barbarian multiclassing)
DEX 15+2
CON 15
INT 8 or 10
WIS 10 or 12
CHA 8

ASIs: Sharpshooter, Piercer +1 DEX, Squat Nimbleness +1 DEX, +1 DEX/+1 CON

I'd probably start Scout Rogue 4 or 5, then Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 5, then Rogue to the end. You'd play as a normal Hand Crossbow Scout Rogue in Tier 1, then the real Ancestral Guardian trick comes online at Character Level 7 or 8, with 3x attacks by Level 9 or 10.

Could do something like Rogue 2 -> Barbarian 5 -> Rogue X, if you want Ancestral Protectors a bit sooner and are willing to delay some Sneak Attack and the Skirmisher ability.

[quindraco]

I'm trying to see if the character concept would be viable and effective as a tank.. and if not..if there are ways to improve his effectiveness whilst still retaining the basic concept.
THIS IS NOT FOR ANY CAMPAIGN I AM CURRENTLY PLAYING. IT'S PURELY AN EXERCISE

so far I have this

Ghostwise Halfling (ghostwise for flavour, the better choice would probably be Stout)
Abilities: 13,15(+2),15,11,9(+1),8.

starting with Barbarian 3, for bear totem, then switching to rogue 3 for Scout (or possibly phantom, more for flavour than effectiveness, I reckon scout is the better option).
I could also go the other way and start with rogue...
I don't have a clear favourite for background.


Is this a decent base for an effective tank-y character or not? I could go barb4/rogue4 for the extra ability improvements to raise the AC, or for the tough feat... and so on..
ideas? how do I improve on this concept? how would you complete the progression to level 20?
How would you do it instead keeping in mind that the flavour and main thing of this character should be a dex based tank and that I dislike monks in general?

Barbarian/Rogue can tank pretty well, but it's just not dexterity-based. If you start off STR 17 CON 16 DEX 15 and then grab the necessary levels (Totem 3 Rogue 5), you can halve damage twice - once with resistance and once with uncanny dodge - on one hit per round. You might want to consider the Kalashtar race, for universal resistance during your rage, if you care that much about tanking, but like with any MAD build, half-elves and mountain dwarves are some of your best choices. You can half-elf to STR 17 CON 16 DEX 16 or mountain dwarf to STR 17 CON 17 DEX 15, and go from there. Your L6 totem will probably be Tiger, but it might be Eagle, and you'll be incredibly overqualified at Athletics, since you'll have expertise in it and advantage while raging.

Thing is, early-campaign, you'll have the same issue as any Barbarian - at only 2 rages per day, you can't afford to rage every fight. You'll want to spend as little time as possible at Barbarian 1 or Barbarian 2, so if you're starting above 1, I'd do Barbarian levels first to avoid playing with limited rages. Don't go to Barbarian 9 - while you'll crit all the damn time, the effort isn't worth it with the rapier you'll be wielding. Brutal Critical is literally 1/3 of the Piercer feat, it's not impressive.

[Omni-Centrist]

Barbarian already has feats that make it so having 16 dex works well (Danger sense)

Best Barb Rogue build is Revenant Blade Beast Barb with a dip in Swash so you can **** up the boss while the others deal with adds.

Point Buy 15 15 14 8 10 8

Half elf for +2 to one stat (STR) and +1 to two (DEX, CHA), first level in Rogue for proficiencies and expertise, run to Barb 5 (take Revenant Blade at 4), then finish in Rogue. Its Extraordinarily nice. I put this against a Fite Giant just to see how it would look with a Level 10 5/5 build, and it just solo'd it.

[Corran]

With advantage on str checks and with potential expertise from the rogue side of the build, you could make an excellent grappler despite you mediocre str score, particularly when you get your extra attack from barbarian 5. Grappling and moving targets with you has enough potential to make something useful and enjoyable out of it, even before you factor in allies (but when your allies can build on it, then you can have the most fun; anything that creates harmful zones or any boost to your movement means for starters). I might even be tempted to go for arcane trickster if I couldn't get all the spell support that I would like from my allies (though it would take some time for my subclass to pay off, given that I am multiclassing), and I would focus combat a lot around grappling strategies that sound fun.

Another idea if you are not set in barbarian, is to go with fighter levels instead. Go for extra attack and for battlemaster maneuvers (I like riposte, precision and feinting for this build), and set up your build (riposte and a pretty good effective AC are necessary) for eventually taking sentinel for off turn sneak attacks (so the build is more heavy on the rogue side, still, extra attack is something worth getting if you are already going up to fighter 3 for the much neccesary maneuvers). The catch is that you need a sufficiently attacking minded fighting buddy with whom you'll want to fight side by side, and that's so that you can have sentinel trigger off turn enough for all this groundwork to be worth it. I'd most likely delay sentinel till the mid levels, not that the build wont be fun till then, but it would take some time for me to have everything in place.

[Nefariis]

I just don't think this character is set to do anything well.

You want him to be a viable tank barbarian, but then you also want to be the non tank rogue subclass and use dex, which doesn't even work on some of the barbarian features.

If you want to be a "tank" barbarian/rogue, totally doable - but you are probably going to need to use Str and be either Swashbucker/Arcane Trickster.

Not only that, the primary feature of Scout is "You can move up to half your speed as a reaction when an enemy ends its turn within 5 feet of you." If you are a bear totem tank, why would you be trying to move away from combat when a combatant approaches you? It should literally be your job to stand there.

Either way Barbarian 5+ seems mandatory for the ASI, extra attack, and the 10ft extra movement.

And I would think that if you were dedicated to be a Scout Rogue, that you would want to be either an Elk totem, as it synergizes much more with Scout.

If you want to be a tank, use STR, ditch Scout, and pick up Sentinel so people are forced to hit you and use your damage resistances - if you want to be a Dex Scout, ditch Bear and the thought of tank and pick up Mobile and elk.

*Edit/Update*

Actually Wood Elf Elk Barbarian 5 / Scout 3 with Mobile would probably be pretty fun.

You would have 60 feet of movement raging (70 at level 14), you would have two attacks (no AoO on those attacks), dash/hide as a bonus action, and a reaction disengage/escape up to half your movement.

Truthfully you would be harder to hit then the bear totem, and you could use reckless attack for advantage sneak attacks and have zero of the repercussions

[Man_Over_Game]

It's worth noting that Scout works especially well as a throwing specialist, as you will not need to spend your BA on retreating like most other rogues will.

Throwing also means that you can still use Strength at range.

The most optimal use of this combo that I can see is through an AG/Scout combo, or as a melee Battlerager/Scout combo (since you can grapple someone and move really far in a single round).

Bear Totem is best used for something that plans to constantly stick around in melee combat, which doesn't describe any Rogue.

[Dayn]

There are a lot of different answers in this thread, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that yes, a DEX-based barbarian/rogue can be an excellent tank. Maybe even the best tank. Here's how I did it:

Variant Human (Sentinel) with 16 DEX, 16 CON, 13 STR
Barb 1 > Swashbuckler 3 > Bear Barb 5 > Swashbuckler 12 > Bear Barb 8
Pump up your DEX and CON for AC before switching to utility feats (Res Wisdom, Lucky, etc.).

Ancestral Guardian would also be good for this, though it didn't exist at the time I made this character (right after SCAG came out).

There are two keys to this build: building up high AC (this is why you DEX) and getting lots of off-turn sneak attacks with sentinel.

With rapier and shield, you start with 18 AC. Yes, this is the same as scale mail. But you'll start to gain separation as you put your ASI in DEX and CON. Bonus points if you can get your hands on a CON-boosting item.

Because you are tanking with AC (in addition to other features), you don't miss reckless attack because you weren't going to be using it anyway. Since you're not using GWM, you don't really need it, especially once you get a second attack and can reliably land your sneak attack every round (Rakish Audacity made it easy to qualify for sneak attack without advantage; it might be harder as a different type of rogue).

With a little assistance from a belt of dwarvenkind and a +3 shield, I had 25 AC by tier 3. When you have 25 AC, bear totem rage, uncanny dodge, danger sense, and evasion, the DM gets real tired of trying to kill you. That's where sentinel comes in: besides making you sticky, you'll get reaction attacks constantly. Your sneak attack isn't as strong as a full rogue's, but when do it twice per round that often, the damage really adds up. A STR-based barb/rogue using reckless attack won't get to do this nearly as often, because the DM will be happy to attack you with advantage. And that's what makes you a successful tank: hard to kill but too dangerous to ignore. Compared to a regular barbarian, you're not quite as dangerous, but you're significantly harder to kill (except high level Zealot).

None of this to say that a STR-based barb/rogue can't also be great. But the DEX build is absolutely viable, highly effective, and lots of fun. Bonus points if you can get your hands on a scimitar of speed; then you can dodge (or panache, if swashbuckler) with your action and get your sneak attack damage with your bonus action.

The takeaway: If your build doesn't rely on reckless attack, then you can switch to DEX without losing very much. The rage damage bonus is a loss, but a small one. Advantage and expertise in athletics makes 13 STR more than enough for grappling. And you can get all of the great benefits that come with high DEX, including synergy with danger sense and evasion.

[samcifer]

I've done builds like this and honestly, you can use a finesse weapon with strength, allowing for both SA damage and rage benefits as well as reckless attacking. I'd also recommend going to barb 5 for the extra attack, extra movement speed and extra hp if you can, then swapping over to rogue for the rest.