Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

[Palanan]

I had the idea for a hobgoblin serving as “military advisor” to the ruler of a small principality, whose army is now winning a series of improbable victories against larger neighbors. For now the hobgoblin is advising from the shadows, but it’s a question of whether he or the ruler betrays the other first.

I’d like the hobgoblin to be an experienced battlefield commander in his own right, but I’m not sure what class would fit. I don’t want him to be a spellcaster, but I’m not sure what martial classes would be good for both front-line fighting and sinister manipulation.

I’m open to suggestions from all official Paizo material, not just classes but feats and archetypes if they seem appropriate.

[Kurald Galain]

Investigator. Good at combat, a ton of skill points, and the Empiricist archetype that lets him key all kinds of manipulative skills off intelligence (his primary).

[Particle_Man]

Maybe add in Assassin/Master Spy, plus leadership for a network of spies and assassins? Maybe also ranger with favoured enemy whatever race the ruler is?

[GreatDane]

Fine-tuning the request:


Experienced battlefield commander means you're probably looking for something with full BAB? Of course, there are plenty of partial-BAB classes that can handle themselves in a fight, but we have to narrow it down a little.
Sinister manipulation means points for those Charisma skills, plus maybe a few class features to support schmoozing or sneaking.

Almost any build would benefit from 1 level in Rogue, for the extra skill points and access to all of their class skills.

After that, I like Ranger for its full BAB and six skill points/level. Warblade and Swordsage from Tome of Battle are also prime candidates. Warblade has fewer skill points (4/level) but has Intelligence synergies for all the clever scheming. Swordsage has the six skill points/level and maneuvers that lend themselves to stealth, but it needs to lean on its maneuvers to make up for the 3/4 BAB.

Edit: Missed that we're looking at Pathfinder. I still think Ranger holds up, but beyond core I don't have enough experience to make recommendations.

[Firebug]

Vigilante maybe? Something like Imperial Agent (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Vigilante%20Imperi al%20Agent) to lead the Kingdom toward a particular enemy.

Lots of social stuff, and you can go full BAB or more rogue-like. Well-known Expert social talent alone is probably enough to get the Military Adviser position.

[Rynjin]

What about playing...a Vizier (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/mesmerist/archetypes/paizo-llc-mesmerist-archetypes/vizier-mesmerist-archetype/) Mesmerist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/mesmerist/)?

I genuinely think this archetype is great, in terms of both flavor and power.

Edit: I missed the "no spellcasting" clause, but I think an Occult caster might sidestep the "Hate stupid Elf magic" tendency hobgoblins have. They like Alchemy after all.

[HeraldOfExius]

If you want to emphasize "experienced military commander," then you could go with cavalier. The Order of the Cockatrice would probably be the best order to pick since it pretty much requires you to be greedy and self-serving. Archetypes will mostly come down to whether you want the hobgoblin to have a mount or not (or perhaps a small personal army if you choose Daring General).

[Glimbur]

Why betray the ruler? Will be harder to usurp control than leave a figure head in place, and if he can steer the ruler into the wars he wants anyway what is the benefit?

[Palanan]

Some good suggestions here, thanks.

The build will be eighth level, and I’m thinking the final two levels will be Dandy ranger, which is an archetype that fits my social needs perfectly.

For the first six levels, I’m torn between slayer and samurai. Comparing the two, the samurai seems to have a bit of an edge. The slayer has more skill points and a better selection of class skills, but the samurai’s resolve looks like a nice feature, and I like the free proficiency with katana and naginata.

The only trouble is the mount—it doesn’t really fit with my idea of the character, and most of the (very few) samurai archetypes don’t trade the mount for anything I’m interested in. The Sword Saint is a possibility, but I’m not sure how a Sword Saint samurai stacks up against, say, a Vanguard slayer at sixth level.

Any thoughts on how these two compare?

[Thunder999]

Have you considered a cavalier, they have some command-related class features, a moderate charisma focus and 4+int skills.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thunder999
Have you considered a cavalier, they have some command-related class features, a moderate charisma focus and 4+int skills.

Samurai is a variant cavalier, and fits my concept a little better.

Still not sure how Samurai 6 stacks up against Slayer 6, although I’m leaning samurai at this point.

[Rynjin]

In terms of battlefield command, a Vanguard Slayer is quite a bit better. Samurai aren't really made for team play as much as base Cavalier.

One thing a Samurai has over a Cavalier or Slayer is the Ironbound Sword (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo-samurai-archetypes/ironbound-sword-samurai-archetype/). It basically just turns you into a Fighter/Samurai gestalt character; you can have full progression class features from both classes.

So you could be a Samurai (Ironbound Sword) 3/Fighter (Seasoned Commander (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/seasoned-commander-fighter-archetype)) 5 and have your cake and eat it too. He's a Samurai with the Cavalier's Tactician ability, plus Inspire Courage and 4 skills/level on all of his levels.

Toss on Sovereign Blade to yeet the Mount class feature and get a bit of a thematic bonus to saves against [Opposing Alignment of Choice].