Fenris Master Plan

[Precure]

As we all learned Fenris is the true creator and progenitor of goblinfolks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html) inluding Darkone and Red Cloak. We also know that Fenris wants to "tear down the world" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) and was very supportive of the current world's destruction. Goblins are his pet project and despite of their previous failures to dominate other races, he's still working on that, including turning goblins into medium sized monsters in this version of the world, making them bigger and better threats against humans. So what is his endgame? He noticed that his medium sized plan was not enough, so he gave up on this world, and already planning a better version of goblinoids he's going to build in the next world. But to do that, he needs to destroy the current world first, or at least destabilize it enough, so snarl would get loose. To do that he needs a pawn, someone who would let loose snarl in his stead, so none of gods would suspect him. For that:

He placed goblins on poor lands intentionally, so they would feel repressed and rise against the system.
He created a special purple skinned goblinoid, Darkone, who thanks to his unusual feats and features rise above other goblinkin and became a leader of their rebellion against the system.
He gave false information about goblinkind's creation process to Darkone, by using his allies Loki, Rat and Tiamat, so Darkone would seek revenge.
He founded IFCC, tasking them with duty of doing anything to destabilize the world, that's why they wants "unnecessary conflict" and that's also why they stopped V when he was trying to stop Roy.
By using his ally Tiamat's prophet he leaked Serini's location to Xykon, giving him locations of the gates. He used the same prophet to manipulate Eugene, Roy, and ABD, direct them into certain locations so they destroy the gates in his stead.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."

[Squire Doodad]

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."

In other words:
This relies on many tenuous assumptions being done by an elaborate chessmaster.
Fenris is neither a chessmaster, nor someone with a long attention span, nor someone willing to so much as sit around for a few centuries guiding incredibly fast reproducing entities to conquer the lands.
I doubt he would have a master plan here, he just made an impulsive move early in the world's creation and then abandoned it. A few millennia later, The Dark One showed up.

[Dr.Zero]

More easily explainable looking at it as a game of strategy.
Fenris is a god of monsters, he wants monsters to win (and bring destruction), with goblinoids he tried to make his side win creating a specie able to do a zerg rush (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZergRush).

[Jason]

Master Plan - Hah!

I picture it more like this:

At the Creation
Fenris: My turn? All right! I'm going to put 5 points into "quick maturity" and 5 points into "breeds fast", uh, a point in darkvision, and I'm giving them tusks, and green skin!
Thor: Goblins? Again? Dude, you have tried that literally a billion times and it never works the way you want it to.
Fenris (snarls): Well maybe I just feel lucky this time.
Odin: You spent all those points on getting more of them faster - where did you get the points?
Fenris: I took them all out of "starting resources" and "magic talent".
Odin: No real magic-users again? That sounds like trouble.
Freyr: You do know that you need food in order to breed, right? What are your goblins going to eat when you gave up all their good land to buy them "breeds fast"?
Fenris: Who cares what they start with? They're going to go conquer all the dwarf lands within a couple centuries.
Thor: Yeah, they can TRY. Looks like I'll be giving the dwarves combat bonuses against goblinoids again.
Fenris: And I made the green ones medium creatures this time. That'll give them just the edge they need to push them to victory.
Thor (rolls eyes)

A few centuries later:
Fenris: Gaaah! Stupid goblins! Every time I get a good general or cleric with a few levels on them they die of old age! And it costs me five goblins just to kill one of your stupid dwarf fighters.
Thor (a little smugly): It's not like we didn't warn you.
Fenris: All right. FINE! You have failed me for the last time, goblins. I'm going to go see what I can do with the trolls and ogres. <Ragequits the goblins>

[Rad]

Also, the Dark One might be seen as a competitor who might not make it to the next world if this one ends now.

[DreamCreator]

I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.

[Fyraltari]

I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.

First page of last strip's discussion thread:



Although, in 999 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), it seemed you called the god of monsters Fenrir rather than Fenris. I assume theyre intended to be the same?
Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.

[hamishspence]

I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.

Not a typo - just a different, equally valid spelling. From the main thread for strip 1232:



Woo, new comic!

Although, in 999 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), it seemed you called the god of monsters Fenrir rather than Fenris. I assume theyre intended to be the same?


Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.

[TARINunit9]

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."

This would also explain why the plan doesn't work in the first place. Species that reproduce faster tend to devote more resources into reproducing and less into being on top of the food chain. But if you're not paying attention, you're probably not going to ever learn this

[DreamCreator]

Not a typo - just a different, equally valid spelling. From the main thread for strip 1232:

Thank you for the reference :)

[Riftwolf]

I'm thinking Fenris is more a comment on how monster manuals are set out, with the pseudo-pc races brushed over in favour of the big cool monsters with higher CR.

[WanderingMist]

I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.

Something, something, Old Norse nominative versus genitive case.

[TRH]

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."

Pretty sure those petty reasons are more than enough reason to label his position as driven by malice even absent a bigger plan, though. Hanlon's Razor seems less relevant than Occam's Razor in this instance.

[Some]

Fenris's plan actually would make sense for a non-intelligent species, e.g. a virus.

The problem with humanoids is that they grow, acquiring knowledge and experience. The longer the lifespan, the greater their potential.

A species that's healthy and functional beyond Age 200 can easily have most of its population with over 100-years of magical training, political experience, military strategy, weapon-crafting skill, engineering knowledge, etc..

For example, how would 100 wizards (30 lvl-1's, 25 lvl-2's, 20 lvl-3's, 15 lvl-4's, and 10-lvl-5's) fare against a single epic-level wizard?

Except it wouldn't even be that equal. For example, the low-level wizards would come from a society that wouldn't even know what high-level spells were; they wouldn't even know what the epic-level wizard could do to them, much less how to strategize against it. Plus they'd have sharp disparities in their equipment, training, and cultural norms, all strongly favoring the epic-level wizard.

Fenris's strategy doesn't work for humanoids.

[brian 333]

***snip***

The longer the lifespan, the greater their potential.

***snip again***

Fenris's strategy doesn't work for humanoids.

Unless it is not the length of a life but the intensity of a life that matters. In core D&D, the elven communities are never better endowed with spellcasters and, since 2nd ed, average elf and average human NPCs have been exactly the same.

Ironically, considering this discussion, in 1st ed AD&D, both goblins and humans were 'less than 1HD creatures. (And Men was an entry in the Monster Manuel.)

Consider the summer we spent in The Vault of the Drow and Queen of the Demonweb Pits. In a three-month campaign our level 8 characters topped level 16, (there were deaths along the way,) and above level 10 was back then considered the way epic is now.

So, at least two elves, a dwarf, an assortment of humans and a gnome illusionist gained levels at the same rate, which was far in excess of what NPCs in towns could do.

Given the warlike tendencies of the goblin culture, they should have many mid-level characters. In fact, they should have as many as are in all of the surrounding civilizations combined because they will have earned their exp fighting each other.

Fenris is smarter than he looks on paper.

[Werbaer]

A species that's healthy and functional beyond Age 200 can easily have most of its population with over 100-years of magical training, political experience, military strategy, weapon-crafting skill, engineering knowledge, etc..
I studied for a century before i even mastered my first 1st level spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

Fenrir Master plan isn't complicated:

Tear down the world, murder everyone, piss on their graves. Strip 999 is the canonical source.

[Darth Paul]

I'm leaning toward those arguments that Fenris may not actually have a master plan. Fenris reminds me rather of the way my daughter creates RPG characters in... well, I was going to name a game, but it's basically any game. 1) Create a character around a cool concept 2) Be enthralled with that character for one or two sessions 3) Come up with a new and altogether cooler concept, create a different character 4) Rinse, repeat.

The result being that no character reaches higher than maybe 3rd level, while all around her our friends characters (or mine, if its a computer RPG) are becoming 6th or 7th or 9th level and she's wondering how come she isn't able to cast Wall of Fire yet. "Because you retired that wizard character 9 weeks ago when she was 3rd level, instead of gaining XP and more spells," I explain. "You wanted to be a Drow assassin."

Fenris: Big on inspiration, low on follow-through.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm leaning toward those arguments that Fenris may not actually have a master plan. Fenris reminds me rather of the way my daughter creates RPG characters in... well, I was going to name a game, but it's basically any game. 1) Create a character around a cool concept 2) Be enthralled with that character for one or two sessions 3) Come up with a new and altogether cooler concept, create a different character 4) Rinse, repeat.

The result being that no character reaches higher than maybe 3rd level, while all around her our friends characters (or mine, if its a computer RPG) are becoming 6th or 7th or 9th level and she's wondering how come she isn't able to cast Wall of Fire yet. "Because you retired that wizard character 9 weeks ago when she was 3rd level, instead of gaining XP and more spells," I explain. "You wanted to be a Drow assassin."

Fenris: Big on inspiration, low on follow-through.

As in a 9 year old finding out super cool ideas, or someone discovering TTRPGs for the first time?

[JonahFalcon]

Well, you can look at the Vorcha in the Mass Effect universe. They only live to 20, and are explosive breeders.

However, THEIR main advantage is this: they are immune to all sickness. They can adapt to any climate.

In their case, their world is a place not even the Reapers want to try to conquer. It's a death world worse than Tuchanka, so having a short lifespan that's immune to all natural ailments AND breeding quickly is the only way to survive there.

I think they also don't require much food, but I haven't investigated that deep into the lore.

Had Fenris wanted them to have a real advantage with other races, he should have made them either magic immune or extremely magic resistant, and with a low metabolism.

[Blue Dragon]

Master Plan - Hah!

I picture it more like this:

At the Creation
Fenris: My turn? All right! I'm going to put 5 points into "quick maturity" and 5 points into "breeds fast", uh, a point in darkvision, and I'm giving them tusks, and green skin!
Thor: Goblins? Again? Dude, you have tried that literally a billion times and it never works the way you want it to.
Fenris (snarls): Well maybe I just feel lucky this time.
Odin: You spent all those points on getting more of them faster - where did you get the points?
Fenris: I took them all out of "starting resources" and "magic talent".
Odin: No real magic-users again? That sounds like trouble.
Freyr: You do know that you need food in order to breed, right? What are your goblins going to eat when you gave up all their good land to buy them "breeds fast"?
Fenris: Who cares what they start with? They're going to go conquer all the dwarf lands within a couple centuries.
Thor: Yeah, they can TRY. Looks like I'll be giving the dwarves combat bonuses against goblinoids again.
Fenris: And I made the green ones medium creatures this time. That'll give them just the edge they need to push them to victory.
Thor (rolls eyes)

A few centuries later:
Fenris: Gaaah! Stupid goblins! Every time I get a good general or cleric with a few levels on them they die of old age! And it costs me five goblins just to kill one of your stupid dwarf fighters.
Thor (a little smugly): It's not like we didn't warn you.
Fenris: All right. FINE! You have failed me for the last time, goblins. I'm going to go see what I can do with the trolls and ogres. <Ragequits the goblins>

Make your words mine - I think exactly the same way, but you explained briliantly.
10/10 absolutely nailed it, would pay you a drink.

[Snails]

Fenris's plan actually would make sense for a non-intelligent species, e.g. a virus.

The problem with humanoids is that they grow, acquiring knowledge and experience. The longer the lifespan, the greater their potential.

Yup. But Fenris does not care.

It is not that he is unaware that weak humans and weak dwarves and weak goblins can sometimes become mighty. But nursing them along would seem like playing Tollbridges & Tavernkeepers when he could be enjoying something fun like Dungeons & Dragons. Fenris does not want to. He sees it as more fun watching the strong be strong because they are strong.

BTW, given Thor's description, it is quite possible that Fenris' plan occasionally succeeds. After all, a stopped clock is right half the time, or perhaps 1 in a million worlds.

I also do not think it is reasonable to trust RC's claim that the goblins were given the lousiest land, by some plan of the gods. For all we know, it was just the normal result of a war-like culture that spirals down with their losing streak: the good land gets taken by someone else.

[Yendor]

I also do not think it is reasonable to trust RC's claim that the goblins were given the lousiest land, by some plan of the gods. For all we know, it was just the normal result of a war-like culture that spirals down with their losing streak: the good land gets taken by someone else.

I think it would have been something like this. Fenrir wouldn't have given them poor land; he just left them ill-equipped to hold onto what they had. Not only do the goblins have to spread their resources thinner, the ultimate potential of the average goblin is much lower than that of a human or a dwarf.

Besides, there's narrative convention working against them. The side with the superior numbers is supposed to lose.

[Snails]

Besides, there's narrative convention working against them. The side with the superior numbers is supposed to lose.

Thor: My turn! Dwarves.
Fenris: And for my turn...goblins! They will multiply to be overwhelming!
Loki: I add Bards.
Fenris: Noooooooo!!!!
Hela: You are an idiot, Fenris.

[Lemarc]

For example, how would 100 wizards (30 lvl-1's, 25 lvl-2's, 20 lvl-3's, 15 lvl-4's, and 10-lvl-5's) fare against a single epic-level wizard?

Pretty damn well if they didn't clump together too much.

[Ganbatte]

Master Plan - Hah!

I picture it more like this:

At the Creation
Fenris: My turn? All right! I'm going to put 5 points into "quick maturity" and 5 points into "breeds fast", uh, a point in darkvision, and I'm giving them tusks, and green skin!
Thor: Goblins? Again? Dude, you have tried that literally a billion times and it never works the way you want it to.
Fenris (snarls): Well maybe I just feel lucky this time.
Odin: You spent all those points on getting more of them faster - where did you get the points?
Fenris: I took them all out of "starting resources" and "magic talent".
Odin: No real magic-users again? That sounds like trouble.
Freyr: You do know that you need food in order to breed, right? What are your goblins going to eat when you gave up all their good land to buy them "breeds fast"?
Fenris: Who cares what they start with? They're going to go conquer all the dwarf lands within a couple centuries.
Thor: Yeah, they can TRY. Looks like I'll be giving the dwarves combat bonuses against goblinoids again.
Fenris: And I made the green ones medium creatures this time. That'll give them just the edge they need to push them to victory.
Thor (rolls eyes)

A few centuries later:
Fenris: Gaaah! Stupid goblins! Every time I get a good general or cleric with a few levels on them they die of old age! And it costs me five goblins just to kill one of your stupid dwarf fighters.
Thor (a little smugly): It's not like we didn't warn you.
Fenris: All right. FINE! You have failed me for the last time, goblins. I'm going to go see what I can do with the trolls and ogres. <Ragequits the goblins>

I like this one, seems pretty plausible and accurate, especially the downsides of breeding and maturing fast ending with no real leaders or power players within the goblin race.

[Darth Paul]

As in a 9 year old finding out super cool ideas, or someone discovering TTRPGs for the first time?

As in someone who impulsively jumps from one enthusiasm to another, no matter what hobby we're talkng about. One week it's Star Wars, the next it's Trek, this week it's military movies.

[Albion]

Hmm! Fenris, you smooth son of a wolf.

[Some]

I studied for a century before i even mastered my first 1st level spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html)

Makes sense when V takes a day, 350 gp, and 7 pages to write a single word (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

[Ganbatte]

Now that I think of it, since V as an elf had to spend 100 years to cast a lvl.1 spell (meaning this sort of stuff varies depending on race) there's no reason why cobolds shouldn't be able to do the same in a way appropriate to their lifespan.

[JonahFalcon]

Read On the Origin of PCs for Haley and V discussing this very subject. :biggrin:

[pearl jam]

Now that I think of it, since V as an elf had to spend 100 years to cast a lvl.1 spell (meaning this sort of stuff varies depending on race) there's no reason why cobolds shouldn't be able to do the same in a way appropriate to their lifespan.

Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

There could easily be a baseline amount of time which can be increased as a penalty to balance against a buff in another area but can't be decreased.

Alternatively, maybe they can master spells in less time than elves or even humans, but even if no hard cap exits, practically there are limits to how fast one can acquire xp to level up, meaning that perhaps they aren't able to level up fast enough in comparison to other races to compensate for the difference in life span.

[brian 333]

Even as far back as 1st ed AD&D goblin communities had members of higher levels. They were, as communities, roughly equivalent to human communities of comparable size.

[masamune1]

Now that I think of it, since V as an elf had to spend 100 years to cast a lvl.1 spell (meaning this sort of stuff varies depending on race) there's no reason why cobolds shouldn't be able to do the same in a way appropriate to their lifespan.

It could just mean that V was / is a terrible Wizard.

[Squire Doodad]

It could just mean that V was / is a terrible Wizard.

Also since it appears to be 5 human years to one elf year, that means V didn't master magic until they hit ~20.
So, yeah, shoddy mage.

[Kornaki]

Also since it appears to be 5 human years to one elf year, that means V didn't master magic until they hit ~20.
So, yeah, shoddy mage.

Julia is what, 16? And clearly at least a level 5 or so wizard, given the description of her research project (I mean, probably actually level 9+, but I'm willing to give a couple levels away)

[Fyraltari]

Julia is what, 16?
Seventeen. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html).

And clearly at least a level 5 or so wizard, given the description of her research project (I mean, probably actually level 9+, but I'm willing to give a couple levels away)
She says she's lowered the spell level below Sending, are there rules on what level would she need to have to do research that?

[Squire Doodad]

She says she's lowered the spell level below Sending, are there rules on what level would she need to have to do research that?

You could make an argument that she's working with higher-level teachers, so she could be below the level needed to cast Sending easily.
Not to mention Sending is a very well known spell in this world, so it's probably super easy to get schematics on how its cast and bypass any requirement that would involve needing to know how to use it before researching a variant.

[Dr.Zero]

Seventeen. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html).

She says she's lowered the spell level below Sending, are there rules on what level would she need to have to do research that?

No.

There is like 1/4 of a page on a rulebook counting more than 300 pages, and it sums up to "The DM decides everything, from the level of the spell to the fact that the spell can, indeed, exist. But if the spell can be created, the wizard must spend a number level weeks in a library and pay level*1000gp and suceed a Spellcraft check at 10+level".

So, basically, a wizard can create whateve spell the GM allows, and everything else is based on the level that the GM assigns to that spell.

[Kornaki]

I realized the class and level thread would probably have more opinions on this and they did

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

She's a level 3 wizard in this comic (she's also probably 16 at that time). So maybe not level 5 by current time in the comic, but certainly far outperforming V's apprenticeship.

[KorvinStarmast]

Even as far back as 1st ed AD&D goblin communities had members of higher levels. They were, as communities, roughly equivalent to human communities of comparable size. Which gives the lie to the goblins always having it rough. Remember that Haley's dad is a 1e thief. :smallwink: OoTS world goes as far back as that, at least, if not further back. :smallcool:

[brian 333]

To be fair, they were, back then, irredeemably evil beings created for the sole purpose of providing low level PCs the opportunity to gain XP by killing them.

And given that in 1e monsters had a set number of XP and adventurers had to double their XP to gain a level, you had to kill a lot of goblins to get to third level.

[KorvinStarmast]

To be fair, they were, back then, irredeemably evil beings created for the sole purpose of providing low level PCs the opportunity to gain XP by killing them.
In your opinion.

And given that in 1e monsters had a set number of XP and adventurers had to double their XP to gain a level, you had to kill a lot of goblins to get to third level. We got 1 XP for each GP we liberated. You didn't have to be a murder hobo to get ahead, but there was certainly plenty of bloodshed.

[Lemarc]

To be fair, they were, back then, irredeemably evil beings created for the sole purpose of providing low level PCs the opportunity to gain XP by killing them.

And given that in 1e monsters had a set number of XP and adventurers had to double their XP to gain a level, you had to kill a lot of goblins to get to third level.

Around 300 goblins per PC, depending on class - each goblin being a genuine 1-on-1 threat for a 1st level PC. No, in AD&D you kill folks to get their money, money is where the XP is at.

[brian 333]

Around 300 goblins per PC, depending on class - each goblin being a genuine 1-on-1 threat for a 1st level PC. No, in AD&D you kill folks to get their money, money is where the XP is at.

Ah, good times.

The thing about treasure was that it always ended up being about half the XP. I never got hoards of treasure in portable form, and by the time we'd get back to the boss monster's lair for a second helping the surviving minions had stashed it somewhere else.

Like the time we took down an otyugh only to realize there was about 16,000 gp worth of copper and tarnished silver coins in the muck. Do you know how long it takes to clean and stack half a million coins? Me neither. We took the magic items, some gems, and a few sacks of coins and moved on.

[Squire Doodad]

Ah, good times.

The thing about treasure was that it always ended up being about half the XP. I never got hoards of treasure in portable form, and by the time we'd get back to the boss monster's lair for a second helping the surviving minions had stashed it somewhere else.

Like the time we took down an otyugh only to realize there was about 16,000 gp worth of copper and tarnished silver coins in the muck. Do you know how long it takes to clean and stack half a million coins? Me neither. We took the magic items, some gems, and a few sacks of coins and moved on.

So were you supposed to calm down the otyugh so you could convince it to clean the muck (apparently they can speak Common), or was it something about leading it towards the coins to clean them all?

[brian 333]

So were you supposed to calm down the otyugh so you could convince it to clean the muck (apparently they can speak Common), or was it something about leading it towards the coins to clean them all?

Actually. We never even thought of that. Our elf was trying to find a way around this huge cesspool when the otyugh body-slammed him. After sneak-attacking our elf we didn't consider talking to it to be a viable option.

But your option would have been better than mine: fireballs are easily evaded when you live submerged in muck.

[Squire Doodad]

Actually. We never even thought of that. Our elf was trying to find a way around this huge cesspool when the otyugh body-slammed him. After sneak-attacking our elf we didn't consider talking to it to be a viable option.

But your option would have been better than mine: fireballs are easily evaded when you live submerged in muck.

Sounds like "combat encounter with alternative negotiation path" sort of a thing. If I had to guess, either the coins were just a lucky roll, or the players were meant to "find" the coins while fighting it, at which point they would be expected to react to that new information and weigh profit of combat vs profit of talking it down/tricking it and getting the coins as a bonus.

[Lemarc]

Ah, good times.

The thing about treasure was that it always ended up being about half the XP. I never got hoards of treasure in portable form, and by the time we'd get back to the boss monster's lair for a second helping the surviving minions had stashed it somewhere else.

Like the time we took down an otyugh only to realize there was about 16,000 gp worth of copper and tarnished silver coins in the muck. Do you know how long it takes to clean and stack half a million coins? Me neither. We took the magic items, some gems, and a few sacks of coins and moved on.

Copper and silver coins start to look like dirt before long even when they aren't buried in sewage. Still, that's technically 15x the XP you got from killing the otyugh had you been able to carry it. I've always considered monster XP as not worth pursuing, anything that gives a meaningful amount of XP for your level typically being too nasty to mess with. I'm having trouble imagining what a game in which fully half your XP comes from monsters looks like, you must have been tipping the blood out of your boots every evening.

[Squire Doodad]

Copper and silver coins start to look like dirt before long even when they aren't buried in sewage. Still, that's technically 15x the XP you got from killing the otyugh had you been able to carry it. I've always considered monster XP as not worth pursuing, anything that gives a meaningful amount of XP for your level typically being too nasty to mess with. I'm having trouble imagining what a game in which fully half your XP comes from monsters looks like, you must have been tipping the blood out of your boots every evening.

Monster Hunter be like:

[KorvinStarmast]

In our experience, otyugh's were mostly hungry, and not big on parley. Perhaps our DM's could not think of much to say for one.

[Squire Doodad]

In our experience, otyugh's were mostly hungry, and not big on parley. Perhaps our DM's could not think of much to say for one.

Circumstance is probably the otyugh muttering to itself during some sort of corruption or blight. Maybe it's the Great Dirt Blight?

"Hungry. Mud was good in days past. Mud is less good now. Mud is eaten, eaten so much, but Mud is not enough. Is flesh better than Mud? Is plant better than Mud? Why is Mud less good now? Less good Mud must be fixed, Mud must be made good or all will die. Still hungry."

(The idea is "coherent but animalistic; limited vocabulary and no pronouns of any sort; "Mud" is considered proper noun because of its importance)

[brian 333]

Copper and silver coins start to look like dirt before long even when they aren't buried in sewage. Still, that's technically 15x the XP you got from killing the otyugh had you been able to carry it. I've always considered monster XP as not worth pursuing, anything that gives a meaningful amount of XP for your level typically being too nasty to mess with. I'm having trouble imagining what a game in which fully half your XP comes from monsters looks like, you must have been tipping the blood out of your boots every evening.

Partly correct. We came to D&D from strategic and tactical simulation wargaming, so after you've done the Kursk Offensive a few times a few tens of thousands of monsters are just an average day at the office.

(That last bit was sarcasm, for those who missed it.)

We tended to farm up. I later learned that it was common for players to fight multiples of low XP foes but, approaching D&D as a small unit tactical sim, we were always trying to get to and defeat the biggest, baddest thing we could find. I can't count the numbers of minions of various kinds that we bypassed somehow because they presented no challenge and fighting them would have eaten up game time and character resources.

Altruistic bunch, weren't we?

[Grand Arbiter]

Pretty damn well if they didn't clump together too much.

Assuming the fight is in 3.5 rules, which it probably is since the singular wizard is epic, the 100 are screwed unless they win initiative and the epic caster hasn’t cast any day-length defensive spells/had no magic items.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) is a nope-button to all spells 3rd level and lower, which is the range of spells available to the group. The 5th level mages cannot dispel it using Dispel Magic because it’d be a 1d20+5 caster level check against DC >31 (11+caster level, over 20 for epic level caster), which makes it numerically impossible. The epic caster would get 20+ rounds to act unhindered for a single spell slot.

I think it’d be difficult for an epic level mage to *not* kill 100 entities with 40-50 HP or less (5th level wizard has 5d4 + 5 x Constitution modifier HP) in that timeframe.

[Lemarc]

Assuming the fight is in 3.5 rules, which it probably is since the singular wizard is epic, the 100 are screwed unless they win initiative and the epic caster hasnÂ’t cast any day-length defensive spells/had no magic items.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) is a nope-button to all spells 3rd level and lower, which is the range of spells available to the group. The 5th level mages cannot dispel it using Dispel Magic because itÂ’d be a 1d20+5 caster level check against DC >31 (11+caster level, over 20 for epic level caster), which makes it numerically impossible. The epic caster would get 20+ rounds to act unhindered for a single spell slot.

I think itÂ’d be difficult for an epic level mage to *not* kill 100 entities with 40-50 HP or less (5th level wizard has 5d4 + 5 x Constitution modifier HP) in that timeframe.

I would have thought, at first glance, that a bit under half of the magehorde could be expected to win initiative on average, and that this would be enough for them to have a good chance of forcing a failed concentration check (assuming no prep time for the epic caster). Am I wrong?

[Grand Arbiter]

I would have thought, at first glance, that a bit under half of the magehorde could be expected to win initiative on average

Assuming equal base stats this would be true, but it depends on how many feats/items/spells the epic caster has that give initiative bonuses.

3.5 has a crapload of material. \_(“)_/


and that this would be enough for them to have a good chance of forcing a failed concentration check (assuming no prep time for the epic caster). Am I wrong?

I believe 3.5 only requires concentration checks if the caster is damaged when the spell is cast, unless the spell’s duration is concentration. Unless some of the 100 are in range for an attack of opportunity, or DM rules going at the same time requires a check, I don’t think they can force a conc. check.

[Lemarc]

I believe 3.5 only requires concentration checks if the caster is damaged when the spell is cast, unless the spell’s duration is concentration. Unless some of the 100 are in range for an attack of opportunity, or DM rules going at the same time requires a check, I don’t think they can force a conc. check.

You can ready a spell on your initiative, say magic missile, set to go off when the enemy begins casting to force a concentration check.

[Grand Arbiter]

You can ready a spell on your initiative, say magic missile, set to go off when the enemy begins casting to force a concentration check.

Forgot about readied actions. Would be a stand-off to see who gets their spells off.


We should probably drop this to avoid derailing the thread too much. I think from here it would require being detailed on the resources both sides have.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think these lines of thought are over anthropomorphizing Fenris.

I say "over" because he's a anthropomorphization in the first place. An essential part of his nature is not human and he doesn't have the free will to chose to between good and evil and the doesn't have the self control for enlightened self-interest or master plans.

In my personal take: he has a much more severe forum of Hell's problem, all souls and little dedication or worship for world after world. The reason he can be like this is the northern gods know the world needs monsters and that makes Fenris necessary (or at least useful) and so the northern gods feed some of their evil souls to him.

For those interested in nitpicky details, I'm not sure if we're counting "Please don't let the monster see me" as worship. I'm also uncertain about dedication and what the phrase "their god" (panel 8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html)) means in a polytheistic religion, but I'm guessing the jerk-god people wish didn't exist gets little to nothing.

[hamishspence]

For those interested in nitpicky details, I'm not sure if we're counting "Please don't let the monster see me" as worship. I'm also uncertain about dedication and what the phrase "their god" (panel 8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html)) means in a polytheistic religion, but I'm guessing the jerk-god people wish didn't exist gets little to nothing.

Presumably it's similar to Faerun - the Forgotten Realms D&D setting - even though most people pray to many gods, one of the many gods they pray to, is their patron - the being whose goals and attitudes the character most aligns with.