meta-dnd
2021-04-23, 01:07 AM
I'm going to propose a few changes to certain stats for published dragons, in the interests of consistency. I'd like feedback on my proposals.
There are (at least) three families of dragons, the metallic (good), chromatic (evil), and gem (neutral) dragons, each with five members. The metallic and chromatic families are presented in the Monster Manual (MM), while the gem family is presented in Gem Dragons of Faerun (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/180402/Gem-Dragons-of-Faerun) (GDOF).
There is a clear hierarchy of power within each family:
Red > Blue > Green > Black > White
Gold > Silver > Bronze > Copper > Brass
Topaz > Ameythst > Sapphire > Emerald > Crystal
I was curious what would happen if I compared the game stats of dragons of equal ranking across the 3 families (Red vs Gold vs Topaz, White vs Brass vs Crystal, etc.) and whether it would reveal anything interesting. I have found this exercise to be a useful way of identifying potential mistakes in the sources (or at the very least, areas of inconsistency).
In the table below I've listed some game stats for the top tier (Grade A) dragon types (Red, Gold, Topaz). For the columns with numeric values (e.g. CR), there is a secondary column (e.g dCR) to the right that shows the amount of change in the statistic between age categories. For example, a young red dragon has CR 10, and a wyrmling red dragon has CR 4, so the dCR cell for young red dragons shows a value of 10-4 = 6. An ancient gold dragon has a strength of 30 (column 'S') while an adult gold dragon has a strength of 27, so column dS for the 'ancient gold dragon' row has a value of 30 - 27 = 3. Both the game stats themselves, and the deltas between successive age categories, will help us identify some interesting patterns (and exceptions to those patterns).
/-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------\
| Color | Age | Source | Al | Sz | CR | dCR | AC | dAC | S | dS | D | dD | C | dC | I | dI | W | dW | R | dR | wlk | fly | clm | swm | bur | dark | blind | bite | dbite | claw | dclaw | tail | dtail | breath1 | breath2 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | wyrmling | MM-98 | CE | M | 4 | | 17 | | 19 | | 10 | | 17 | | 12 | | 11 | | 15 | | 30 | 60 | 30 | | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 & 1d6 13 | | | | | | fire 7d6 24 15' cone dex 13 | |
| | young | MM-98 | CE | L | 10 | 6 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 14 | 2 | 11 | 0 | 19 | 4 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 & 1d6 20 | 7 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 16d6 56 30' cone dex 17 | |
| | adult | MM-98 | CE | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 21 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 & 2d6 26 | 6 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 18d6 63 60' cone dex 21 | |
| | ancient | MM-97 | CE | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 10 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 15 | 2 | 23 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 & 4d6 35 | 9 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 26d6 91 90' cone dex 24 | |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Gold | wyrmling | MM-115 | LG | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 11 | | 16 | | 30 | 60 | | 30 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | fire 4d10 22 15' cone dex 13 | weakening 15' cone str 13 |
| | young | MM-115 | LG | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 10d10 55 30' cone dex 17 | weakening 30' cone str 17 |
| | adult | MM-114 | LG | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 0 | 15 | 2 | 24 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 19 | 2 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 12d10 66 60' cone dex 21 | weakening 60' cone str 21 |
| | ancient | MM-113 | LG | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 17 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 2 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 13d10 71 90' cone dex 24 | weakening 90' cone str 24 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Topaz | wyrmling | GDOF-19 | CN | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 16 | | 11 | | 30 | 15 | | 60 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | razor 6d6 21 40' line dex 13 | |
| | young | GDOF-18 | CN | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 13 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | razor 16d6 56 60' line dex 17 | |
| | adult | GDOF-18 | CN | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 25 | 2 | 14 | 0 | 23 | 2 | 16 | 0 | 24 | 4 | 15 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+7 18 | 1 | 2d6+7 14 | 1 | 2d8+7 16 | | razor 18d6 63 90' line dex 21 | dehydrating 90' line con 21 |
| | ancient | GDOF-17 | CN | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 5 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 6 | 18 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 17 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 100 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 3 | 2d6+10 17 | 3 | 2d8+10 19 | 3 | razor 20d6 70 120' line dex 24 | dehydrating 120' line con 24 |
\-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------/
In order to see these patterns, let's reorder the above rows by grouping dragons of the same age category together.
/-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------\
| Color | Age | Source | Al | Sz | CR | dCR | AC | dAC | S | dS | D | dD | C | dC | I | dI | W | dW | R | dR | wlk | fly | clm | swm | bur | dark | blind | bite | dbite | claw | dclaw | tail | dtail | breath1 | breath2 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | wyrmling | MM-98 | CE | M | 4 | | 17 | | 19 | | 10 | | 17 | | 12 | | 11 | | 15 | | 30 | 60 | 30 | | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 & 1d6 13 | | | | | | fire 7d6 24 15' cone dex 13 | |
| Gold | | MM-115 | LG | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 11 | | 16 | | 30 | 60 | | 30 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | fire 4d10 22 15' cone dex 13 | weakening 15' cone str 13 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-19 | CN | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 16 | | 11 | | 30 | 15 | | 60 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | razor 6d6 21 40' line dex 13 | |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | young | MM-98 | CE | L | 10 | 6 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 14 | 2 | 11 | 0 | 19 | 4 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 & 1d6 20 | 7 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 16d6 56 30' cone dex 17 | |
| Gold | | MM-115 | LG | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 10d10 55 30' cone dex 17 | weakening 30' cone str 17 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-18 | CN | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 13 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | razor 16d6 56 60' line dex 17 | |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | adult | MM-98 | CE | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 21 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 & 2d6 26 | 6 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 18d6 63 60' cone dex 21 | |
| Gold | | MM-114 | LG | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 0 | 15 | 2 | 24 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 19 | 2 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 12d10 66 60' cone dex 21 | weakening 60' cone str 21 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-18 | CN | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 25 | 2 | 14 | 0 | 23 | 2 | 16 | 0 | 24 | 4 | 15 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+7 18 | 1 | 2d6+7 14 | 1 | 2d8+7 16 | | razor 18d6 63 90' line dex 21 | dehydrating 90' line con 21 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | ancient | MM-97 | CE | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 10 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 15 | 2 | 23 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 & 4d6 35 | 9 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 26d6 91 90' cone dex 24 | |
| Gold | | MM-113 | LG | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 17 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 2 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 13d10 71 90' cone dex 24 | weakening 90' cone str 24 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-17 | CN | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 5 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 6 | 18 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 17 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 100 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 3 | 2d6+10 17 | 3 | 2d8+10 19 | 3 | razor 20d6 70 120' line dex 24 | dehydrating 120' line con 24 |
\-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------/
The degree of similarity in values across the three dragons in each age category makes it pretty clear that an attempt has been made to have the dragons in a particular "tier" be of equal power. For example, the fact that all three dragons have exactly the same AC at each age category is not a coincidence.
Below, I'm going to enumerate some observations about these three dragons, commenting on which differences look like mistakes (while acknowledging that the designers are of course welcome to introduce variability wherever they want to) and which differences look intentional. Given that the gem dragons from Kobold Press aren't as official as those in the Monster Manual, I'm going to put less weight on them (and be more prone to assume errors in their material), justified or not.
I'd appreciate input from others interested in dragons, internal consistency, finding ways to develop accurate measures of CR, etc.
CR: The CR of all three dragons is the same except that Red Dragon Wrymlings be CR4 while the other two are CR3. If the Red dragons at young, adult and ancient age categories were also one CR above their Gold/Topaz compatriots, I'd assume this was intentional, but the sole difference looks like a mistake to me. I'm leaning towards making Red Dragon Wyrmlings CR3 (adjusting scores if necessary to acheive this).
AC: All three dragons have the exact same AC. Which, as we'll see when we get to dexterity, implies that Red dragons have tougher hides than Gold or Topaz dragons, but are less nimble).
S: All three dragons have identical Strength scores except Adult Topaz dragons have Str 25 instead of 27. This looks like a mistake to me; I think Topaz dragons should have Str 27, which will increase their damage and attack by +1 but is unlikely to increase their CR (we can adjust something else to avoid a CR increase if need be).
D: Red dragons have Dex 10, while Gold and Topaz dragons have Dex 14. The consistency in the difference is obviously intentional (and as we'll see when we look at other tiers, differences in Dex are common but consistent in their differences). I have no issue with this, other than the fact that all three dragons have the same AC. Both Gold and Topaz dragons gain a +2 bonus to AC because of their Dex, which means their natural bonus is 2 less than for Red dragons (which seems a bit odd, even if game mechanically irrelevant). Since this doesn't really make much sense, one possibility would be to reduce the AC of Red dragons by 2. This would seemingly reduce their CRs below Gold/Topaz, but see my notes on bite attacks for where Red dragons have a benefit that Gold/Topaz do not.
C: All three dragons have identical Constitution scores except Adult Topaz dragons have Con 23 instead of 25. This looks like a mistake to me; I think Topaz dragons should have Con 25, which will increase their hp by +HD, which hopefully doesn't affect their CR.
I: All three Adult/Ancient dragons have the same intelligence, but Red Wyrmling/Young dragons are 2 points below their Gold/Topaz peers. This may be intentional, but the inconsistency in the inconsistency doesn't feel right. I think we should either increase the Int of Red Wyrmling/Young dragons by 2, or decreate the Int of Red Adult/Ancient dragons by 2. Given how little intelligence matters in 5e (to my internal frustration), this won't have any game-mechanical impact and improves iconsistency.
W: Wisdom has the most variability between the three dragons. Gold dragons increase Wisdom by +2 per age category, and Topaz dragons increase by +4, but Red dragons don't abide by this trend, having the same wisdom as Wyrmlings as they do when Young. There are two different ways to fix this: 1) make Red Wyrmling's Wisdom be 9, 2) make Red wisdom match Gold wisdom across all categories. Since Gold dragons are known to be wise (and Red dragons are not know for such), it makes sense to me to go with the first variant (Red's have -2 wisdom compared to Gold at each age category).
There is, however, a much more serious philosophical inconsistency here. Across all 15 dragon types, the highest Wisdom score any dragon achieves is a 17 ... except the Topaz dragon, which has an inordinately high wisdom of 28 by the time it reaches ancient age. This was obviously intentional on the part of Kobold Press, but I have some reservations about Topaz wisdoms being so far out of sync with every other dragon, and am tempted to make Topaz wisdoms equal Gold wisdoms across the board. Especially given that the writeup for Topaz dragons makes no mention whatoever to them being godlike in wisdom. On the contrary, they are described as
(GDOF-16) The most misanthropic and unpredictable of the gem dragons, topaz dragons dwell far from civilization, on windswept seaside cliffs or in underwater grottos.
R: Charisma is also quite inconsistent across the three dragon types. On the plus side, Gold increase by +4 each category, and Topaz increases by +2 each category. But Red is once again a problem child, increasing by +4 between Wyrmling and Young, and by +2 between the other two. I don't object to Gold's being more charismatic than Red's, nor do I object to Topaz's having significantly lower Charismas given their aforementioned misanthropic and unpredictable natures. But there is no reason not to have some consistency within these differences. One simple way to do this is a single change ... Red Wyrmling's Charisma is 17 (instead of 15) so that they increase by +2 each category (even though this means Red Wyrmling's are slightly wiser than Gold Wyrmlings ... this reverses quickly as Gold's age).
wlk: Walk speeds are identical.
fly: Fly speeds for Red/Gold are identical, and Topaz dragons have one fourth the fly speed of the other two. This fits very well with the written description:
(GDOF-16) Topaz dragons have lived in oceans and on the Elemental Plane of Water for untold eons, and they are well adapted to their native environment. Their finlike wings are almost vestigial, but their muscular builds offset their poor flight, granting them unparalleled speed and maneuverability in the water.
clm: Climb and Swim speeds: Red dragons have climb speeds but no swim speed, while Gold dragons have swim speeds but no climb speeds (the speeds are the same between Red and Gold, just different forms). For the most part, Topaz dragons have double the swim speed of Gold dragons, except that instead of an Ancient swim speed of 80, it is 100. Across all 15 dragon types, the walk, fly, climb and swim speeds all follow a very consist pattern (a certain speed as Wyrmlings, then a slightly higher speed as Young that does NOT increase at Adult or Ancient) ... the only exception is the Ancient Topaz swim speed. Whether this was intentional or not, in the interests of consistency I am setting this speed to 80 not 100.
bur: none of these dragons have a burrow speed.
dark: darkvision is identical across all three.
blind: blindsight is identical across all three.
bite: the values in this show the die roll(s) involved in the attack as well as an integer representing the average damage per bite. Note that the expected damage is signficantly higher for Red dragons at all age categories than for Gold or Topaz dragons (and this is true for all chromatic dragons compared with metallic or gem dragons). This is because chromatic bite attacks do both piercing and elemental damage, whereas metallic and gem bite attacks do piercing damage only. On the other hand, metallic and gem dragons have two breath weapons to the chromatic dragons one breath weapon. More game-mechanically relevant, this increased bite damage risks Red's have a higher CR than Gold or Topaz dragons ... which is why reducing their AC by 2 makes sense to compensate for this (see my comments above about AC and Dex).
One other discrepancy is the bite damage of Adult Topaz (2d10+7) vs Adult Gold (2d10+8). This is because of the erroneously low Strength score of Adult Topaz (see above). If Adult Topaz dragons had Str 27, this discrepancy would go away.
claw: All three are identical except Adult Topaz. Fixing its Str score fixes this difference.
tail: All three are identical except Adult Topaz. Fixing its Str score fixes this difference.
breath1: This column packs in a bunch of information about damage dealing breath weapons. For example, the Red Wyrmling entry is "fire 7d6 24 15' cone dex 13", which states that there is 7d6 fire damage (avg 24hp) in a 15' cone, requiring a DC 13 Dex save to half the damage.
The average damage of each dragon's breath weapon is relatively consistent. The fact that Gold's use fewer d10's vs Red's using more d6's means Gold damage will be more variable, while Red damage will be more consistently near the mean. I do think it makes sense to have Topaz dragons do the same d6 damage as Red dragons (7d6 instead of 6d6 as Wyrmlings, and 26d6 instead of 20d6 as Ancients). Or maybe Topaz dragons could use d8's to mix up the variabilty a bit.
There is a bit of inconsistency between the Ancient Gold dragon doing on average 71hp vs Red dragons 91hp. Increasing Gold damage from 13d10 to 16d10 (avg 88hp) or 17d10 (vg 93hp) would make this more consistent. consistency.
Save DCs are consistent across all three dragon types, and Red/Gold have the same range on their cones. It makes sense for Topaz dragons to have a longer range on their line-based breath weapons as well.
breath2: Only Gold and Topaz dragons have a second (non-killing) breathweaopn.
Do the above suggestions for changes feel sensible? I'm all for adding differences when they increase flavor and roleplaying possibilities, but I'm also in favor of internal consistency. Besides which, if all dragons in a given tier have very similar game-mechanical values, it makes it easier to compute CRs (once game-play has identified a good CR for one of the dragons in the tier, we know the CR of all dragons in the tier). See the related thread for a discussion of how computing dragon CRs from first principles aligns with published CRs.
What would you do differently, in the above analysis?
There are (at least) three families of dragons, the metallic (good), chromatic (evil), and gem (neutral) dragons, each with five members. The metallic and chromatic families are presented in the Monster Manual (MM), while the gem family is presented in Gem Dragons of Faerun (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/180402/Gem-Dragons-of-Faerun) (GDOF).
There is a clear hierarchy of power within each family:
Red > Blue > Green > Black > White
Gold > Silver > Bronze > Copper > Brass
Topaz > Ameythst > Sapphire > Emerald > Crystal
I was curious what would happen if I compared the game stats of dragons of equal ranking across the 3 families (Red vs Gold vs Topaz, White vs Brass vs Crystal, etc.) and whether it would reveal anything interesting. I have found this exercise to be a useful way of identifying potential mistakes in the sources (or at the very least, areas of inconsistency).
In the table below I've listed some game stats for the top tier (Grade A) dragon types (Red, Gold, Topaz). For the columns with numeric values (e.g. CR), there is a secondary column (e.g dCR) to the right that shows the amount of change in the statistic between age categories. For example, a young red dragon has CR 10, and a wyrmling red dragon has CR 4, so the dCR cell for young red dragons shows a value of 10-4 = 6. An ancient gold dragon has a strength of 30 (column 'S') while an adult gold dragon has a strength of 27, so column dS for the 'ancient gold dragon' row has a value of 30 - 27 = 3. Both the game stats themselves, and the deltas between successive age categories, will help us identify some interesting patterns (and exceptions to those patterns).
/-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------\
| Color | Age | Source | Al | Sz | CR | dCR | AC | dAC | S | dS | D | dD | C | dC | I | dI | W | dW | R | dR | wlk | fly | clm | swm | bur | dark | blind | bite | dbite | claw | dclaw | tail | dtail | breath1 | breath2 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | wyrmling | MM-98 | CE | M | 4 | | 17 | | 19 | | 10 | | 17 | | 12 | | 11 | | 15 | | 30 | 60 | 30 | | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 & 1d6 13 | | | | | | fire 7d6 24 15' cone dex 13 | |
| | young | MM-98 | CE | L | 10 | 6 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 14 | 2 | 11 | 0 | 19 | 4 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 & 1d6 20 | 7 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 16d6 56 30' cone dex 17 | |
| | adult | MM-98 | CE | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 21 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 & 2d6 26 | 6 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 18d6 63 60' cone dex 21 | |
| | ancient | MM-97 | CE | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 10 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 15 | 2 | 23 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 & 4d6 35 | 9 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 26d6 91 90' cone dex 24 | |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Gold | wyrmling | MM-115 | LG | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 11 | | 16 | | 30 | 60 | | 30 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | fire 4d10 22 15' cone dex 13 | weakening 15' cone str 13 |
| | young | MM-115 | LG | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 10d10 55 30' cone dex 17 | weakening 30' cone str 17 |
| | adult | MM-114 | LG | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 0 | 15 | 2 | 24 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 19 | 2 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 12d10 66 60' cone dex 21 | weakening 60' cone str 21 |
| | ancient | MM-113 | LG | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 17 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 2 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 13d10 71 90' cone dex 24 | weakening 90' cone str 24 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Topaz | wyrmling | GDOF-19 | CN | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 16 | | 11 | | 30 | 15 | | 60 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | razor 6d6 21 40' line dex 13 | |
| | young | GDOF-18 | CN | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 13 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | razor 16d6 56 60' line dex 17 | |
| | adult | GDOF-18 | CN | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 25 | 2 | 14 | 0 | 23 | 2 | 16 | 0 | 24 | 4 | 15 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+7 18 | 1 | 2d6+7 14 | 1 | 2d8+7 16 | | razor 18d6 63 90' line dex 21 | dehydrating 90' line con 21 |
| | ancient | GDOF-17 | CN | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 5 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 6 | 18 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 17 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 100 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 3 | 2d6+10 17 | 3 | 2d8+10 19 | 3 | razor 20d6 70 120' line dex 24 | dehydrating 120' line con 24 |
\-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------/
In order to see these patterns, let's reorder the above rows by grouping dragons of the same age category together.
/-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------\
| Color | Age | Source | Al | Sz | CR | dCR | AC | dAC | S | dS | D | dD | C | dC | I | dI | W | dW | R | dR | wlk | fly | clm | swm | bur | dark | blind | bite | dbite | claw | dclaw | tail | dtail | breath1 | breath2 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | wyrmling | MM-98 | CE | M | 4 | | 17 | | 19 | | 10 | | 17 | | 12 | | 11 | | 15 | | 30 | 60 | 30 | | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 & 1d6 13 | | | | | | fire 7d6 24 15' cone dex 13 | |
| Gold | | MM-115 | LG | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 11 | | 16 | | 30 | 60 | | 30 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | fire 4d10 22 15' cone dex 13 | weakening 15' cone str 13 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-19 | CN | M | 3 | | 17 | | 19 | | 14 | | 17 | | 14 | | 16 | | 11 | | 30 | 15 | | 60 | | 60 | 10 | 1d10+4 9 | | | | | | razor 6d6 21 40' line dex 13 | |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | young | MM-98 | CE | L | 10 | 6 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 14 | 2 | 11 | 0 | 19 | 4 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 & 1d6 20 | 7 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 16d6 56 30' cone dex 17 | |
| Gold | | MM-115 | LG | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | fire 10d10 55 30' cone dex 17 | weakening 30' cone str 17 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-18 | CN | L | 10 | 7 | 18 | 1 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 20 | 4 | 13 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 30 | 2d10+6 17 | 8 | 2d6+6 13 | | | | razor 16d6 56 60' line dex 17 | |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | adult | MM-98 | CE | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 2 | 13 | 2 | 21 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 & 2d6 26 | 6 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 18d6 63 60' cone dex 21 | |
| Gold | | MM-114 | LG | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 27 | 4 | 14 | 0 | 25 | 4 | 16 | 0 | 15 | 2 | 24 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+8 19 | 2 | 2d6+8 15 | 2 | 2d8+8 17 | | fire 12d10 66 60' cone dex 21 | weakening 60' cone str 21 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-18 | CN | H | 17 | 7 | 19 | 1 | 25 | 2 | 14 | 0 | 23 | 2 | 16 | 0 | 24 | 4 | 15 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 80 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+7 18 | 1 | 2d6+7 14 | 1 | 2d8+7 16 | | razor 18d6 63 90' line dex 21 | dehydrating 90' line con 21 |
|-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------|
| Red | ancient | MM-97 | CE | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 10 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 15 | 2 | 23 | 2 | 40 | 80 | 40 | | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 & 4d6 35 | 9 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 26d6 91 90' cone dex 24 | |
| Gold | | MM-113 | LG | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 3 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 4 | 18 | 2 | 17 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 40 | 80 | | 40 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 2 | 2d6+10 17 | 2 | 2d8+10 19 | 2 | fire 13d10 71 90' cone dex 24 | weakening 90' cone str 24 |
| Topaz | | GDOF-17 | CN | G | 24 | 7 | 22 | 3 | 30 | 5 | 14 | 0 | 29 | 6 | 18 | 2 | 28 | 4 | 17 | 2 | 40 | 20 | | 100 | | 120 | 60 | 2d10+10 21 | 3 | 2d6+10 17 | 3 | 2d8+10 19 | 3 | razor 20d6 70 120' line dex 24 | dehydrating 120' line con 24 |
\-------+----------+---------+----+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------+-------+------------------+-------+-----------+-------+-----------+-------+---------------------------------+------------------------------/
The degree of similarity in values across the three dragons in each age category makes it pretty clear that an attempt has been made to have the dragons in a particular "tier" be of equal power. For example, the fact that all three dragons have exactly the same AC at each age category is not a coincidence.
Below, I'm going to enumerate some observations about these three dragons, commenting on which differences look like mistakes (while acknowledging that the designers are of course welcome to introduce variability wherever they want to) and which differences look intentional. Given that the gem dragons from Kobold Press aren't as official as those in the Monster Manual, I'm going to put less weight on them (and be more prone to assume errors in their material), justified or not.
I'd appreciate input from others interested in dragons, internal consistency, finding ways to develop accurate measures of CR, etc.
CR: The CR of all three dragons is the same except that Red Dragon Wrymlings be CR4 while the other two are CR3. If the Red dragons at young, adult and ancient age categories were also one CR above their Gold/Topaz compatriots, I'd assume this was intentional, but the sole difference looks like a mistake to me. I'm leaning towards making Red Dragon Wyrmlings CR3 (adjusting scores if necessary to acheive this).
AC: All three dragons have the exact same AC. Which, as we'll see when we get to dexterity, implies that Red dragons have tougher hides than Gold or Topaz dragons, but are less nimble).
S: All three dragons have identical Strength scores except Adult Topaz dragons have Str 25 instead of 27. This looks like a mistake to me; I think Topaz dragons should have Str 27, which will increase their damage and attack by +1 but is unlikely to increase their CR (we can adjust something else to avoid a CR increase if need be).
D: Red dragons have Dex 10, while Gold and Topaz dragons have Dex 14. The consistency in the difference is obviously intentional (and as we'll see when we look at other tiers, differences in Dex are common but consistent in their differences). I have no issue with this, other than the fact that all three dragons have the same AC. Both Gold and Topaz dragons gain a +2 bonus to AC because of their Dex, which means their natural bonus is 2 less than for Red dragons (which seems a bit odd, even if game mechanically irrelevant). Since this doesn't really make much sense, one possibility would be to reduce the AC of Red dragons by 2. This would seemingly reduce their CRs below Gold/Topaz, but see my notes on bite attacks for where Red dragons have a benefit that Gold/Topaz do not.
C: All three dragons have identical Constitution scores except Adult Topaz dragons have Con 23 instead of 25. This looks like a mistake to me; I think Topaz dragons should have Con 25, which will increase their hp by +HD, which hopefully doesn't affect their CR.
I: All three Adult/Ancient dragons have the same intelligence, but Red Wyrmling/Young dragons are 2 points below their Gold/Topaz peers. This may be intentional, but the inconsistency in the inconsistency doesn't feel right. I think we should either increase the Int of Red Wyrmling/Young dragons by 2, or decreate the Int of Red Adult/Ancient dragons by 2. Given how little intelligence matters in 5e (to my internal frustration), this won't have any game-mechanical impact and improves iconsistency.
W: Wisdom has the most variability between the three dragons. Gold dragons increase Wisdom by +2 per age category, and Topaz dragons increase by +4, but Red dragons don't abide by this trend, having the same wisdom as Wyrmlings as they do when Young. There are two different ways to fix this: 1) make Red Wyrmling's Wisdom be 9, 2) make Red wisdom match Gold wisdom across all categories. Since Gold dragons are known to be wise (and Red dragons are not know for such), it makes sense to me to go with the first variant (Red's have -2 wisdom compared to Gold at each age category).
There is, however, a much more serious philosophical inconsistency here. Across all 15 dragon types, the highest Wisdom score any dragon achieves is a 17 ... except the Topaz dragon, which has an inordinately high wisdom of 28 by the time it reaches ancient age. This was obviously intentional on the part of Kobold Press, but I have some reservations about Topaz wisdoms being so far out of sync with every other dragon, and am tempted to make Topaz wisdoms equal Gold wisdoms across the board. Especially given that the writeup for Topaz dragons makes no mention whatoever to them being godlike in wisdom. On the contrary, they are described as
(GDOF-16) The most misanthropic and unpredictable of the gem dragons, topaz dragons dwell far from civilization, on windswept seaside cliffs or in underwater grottos.
R: Charisma is also quite inconsistent across the three dragon types. On the plus side, Gold increase by +4 each category, and Topaz increases by +2 each category. But Red is once again a problem child, increasing by +4 between Wyrmling and Young, and by +2 between the other two. I don't object to Gold's being more charismatic than Red's, nor do I object to Topaz's having significantly lower Charismas given their aforementioned misanthropic and unpredictable natures. But there is no reason not to have some consistency within these differences. One simple way to do this is a single change ... Red Wyrmling's Charisma is 17 (instead of 15) so that they increase by +2 each category (even though this means Red Wyrmling's are slightly wiser than Gold Wyrmlings ... this reverses quickly as Gold's age).
wlk: Walk speeds are identical.
fly: Fly speeds for Red/Gold are identical, and Topaz dragons have one fourth the fly speed of the other two. This fits very well with the written description:
(GDOF-16) Topaz dragons have lived in oceans and on the Elemental Plane of Water for untold eons, and they are well adapted to their native environment. Their finlike wings are almost vestigial, but their muscular builds offset their poor flight, granting them unparalleled speed and maneuverability in the water.
clm: Climb and Swim speeds: Red dragons have climb speeds but no swim speed, while Gold dragons have swim speeds but no climb speeds (the speeds are the same between Red and Gold, just different forms). For the most part, Topaz dragons have double the swim speed of Gold dragons, except that instead of an Ancient swim speed of 80, it is 100. Across all 15 dragon types, the walk, fly, climb and swim speeds all follow a very consist pattern (a certain speed as Wyrmlings, then a slightly higher speed as Young that does NOT increase at Adult or Ancient) ... the only exception is the Ancient Topaz swim speed. Whether this was intentional or not, in the interests of consistency I am setting this speed to 80 not 100.
bur: none of these dragons have a burrow speed.
dark: darkvision is identical across all three.
blind: blindsight is identical across all three.
bite: the values in this show the die roll(s) involved in the attack as well as an integer representing the average damage per bite. Note that the expected damage is signficantly higher for Red dragons at all age categories than for Gold or Topaz dragons (and this is true for all chromatic dragons compared with metallic or gem dragons). This is because chromatic bite attacks do both piercing and elemental damage, whereas metallic and gem bite attacks do piercing damage only. On the other hand, metallic and gem dragons have two breath weapons to the chromatic dragons one breath weapon. More game-mechanically relevant, this increased bite damage risks Red's have a higher CR than Gold or Topaz dragons ... which is why reducing their AC by 2 makes sense to compensate for this (see my comments above about AC and Dex).
One other discrepancy is the bite damage of Adult Topaz (2d10+7) vs Adult Gold (2d10+8). This is because of the erroneously low Strength score of Adult Topaz (see above). If Adult Topaz dragons had Str 27, this discrepancy would go away.
claw: All three are identical except Adult Topaz. Fixing its Str score fixes this difference.
tail: All three are identical except Adult Topaz. Fixing its Str score fixes this difference.
breath1: This column packs in a bunch of information about damage dealing breath weapons. For example, the Red Wyrmling entry is "fire 7d6 24 15' cone dex 13", which states that there is 7d6 fire damage (avg 24hp) in a 15' cone, requiring a DC 13 Dex save to half the damage.
The average damage of each dragon's breath weapon is relatively consistent. The fact that Gold's use fewer d10's vs Red's using more d6's means Gold damage will be more variable, while Red damage will be more consistently near the mean. I do think it makes sense to have Topaz dragons do the same d6 damage as Red dragons (7d6 instead of 6d6 as Wyrmlings, and 26d6 instead of 20d6 as Ancients). Or maybe Topaz dragons could use d8's to mix up the variabilty a bit.
There is a bit of inconsistency between the Ancient Gold dragon doing on average 71hp vs Red dragons 91hp. Increasing Gold damage from 13d10 to 16d10 (avg 88hp) or 17d10 (vg 93hp) would make this more consistent. consistency.
Save DCs are consistent across all three dragon types, and Red/Gold have the same range on their cones. It makes sense for Topaz dragons to have a longer range on their line-based breath weapons as well.
breath2: Only Gold and Topaz dragons have a second (non-killing) breathweaopn.
Do the above suggestions for changes feel sensible? I'm all for adding differences when they increase flavor and roleplaying possibilities, but I'm also in favor of internal consistency. Besides which, if all dragons in a given tier have very similar game-mechanical values, it makes it easier to compute CRs (once game-play has identified a good CR for one of the dragons in the tier, we know the CR of all dragons in the tier). See the related thread for a discussion of how computing dragon CRs from first principles aligns with published CRs.
What would you do differently, in the above analysis?