Idea: The Order will have to defeat not only Snarl, but also gods!

[Edreyn]

Hello everyone!

So, your read the topic name and might be thinking of what I am talking about.
And here is what I mean - by now heroes must realize, that gods provide same threat, as Snarl himself (itself?).
Why so?

First (possibly most important) - how can we be sure, that gods won't destroy the world, even if heroes find a way to render Snarl harmless forever, just in case?
Do they actually care about the world? No, not even the good aligned! They do care about "income" in the form of souls, but for now there is no reason to believe that any of them, again, even good ones, want existence to continue, only because it's good. They unmade countless worlds before, why would they treat this one differently? They can destroy it in any moment, if they are scared enough!

Second - in any dispute, it's always good to listen to both sides. We don't actually know, if everything is really as described by now. We do know, that there is a whole world inside the Snarl. Is it really such a horrid abomination? Can we be sure that gods keep Snarl imprisoned because he is dangerous?
Maybe gods destroy worlds just for lulz or out of boredom, and Snarl tried to stand up against this? We never heard his version!

We assume that Oots gods are on the good side, because of our real-life beliefs, and also because of all other books, movies, games or whatever. But what if we are wrong?

Third - even earlier we saw, that some of gods created something just for fun, or due to being incompetent. Like on some old page Monkey created ninjas unfit for the medieval Europe style, or on today's page with Fenris creating goblins completely unable to see what disastrous result will be from it.
And as for being incompetent, do I need to say anything about Odin?
This section doesn't add "points" for Snarl, but it does go against gods.

In today's page, even Durkon realized that all mortals are just toys or food for gods. And Thor didn't really argues with this.

Fourth - gods said they created this world as a prison of Snarl? So, once Snarl is destroyed or pacified, there is no longer need to keep it? I guess keeping worlds is expensive.

Fifth - with Snarl no more, they might or even they will start fighting each other again. Results can be disastrous for mortals.

Sixth - this one is "metagame". We know how the author hates the idea of races evil by default. And gods directly create some races as evil. There is a possibility, that Giant will implement his struggle against evil races idea by heroes going against gods because of it.

Now, the idea of a mortals going against gods to get free from them is relatively rare, but it exists.
My favorite game series Gothic can be an example. Xardas, the necromancer feared and hated by all, but NOT evil, created a long going plan, which resulted in gods losing their direct control over mortals, and humans with orcs both becoming free of being toys in senseless struggle.

So, to summarize, I believe there is a chance, that the party will one day revolt against gods, either after defeating the Snarl (the gods might want to destroy the world anyway, for whatever reason) or even instead of it.

[Rrmcklin]

Without talking about the morality of the gods as individuals or as a group, if you think they just destroy the worlds willy nilly and would immediately do so even if the Snarl was destroyed, it seems like you haven't really been paying attention to anything going on.

[Edreyn]

That isn't so. I had this idea for some time, but decided to post it after the last page, where Durkon complains to Thor about being "food".

[Manga Shoggoth]

That isn't so. I had this idea for some time, but decided to post it after the last page, where Durkon complains to Thor about being "food".

Let's see... According to what we know in comic:

The Snarl destroyed world #1, not the Gods. All subsequent worlds were created as prisons for the Snarl. We have no indication whatsoever that the Gods are interested in destroying worlds out of hand.

The Gods have a pragmatic reason for not destroying worlds "just for lulz or out of boredom". The worlds are their food source, and destroying the world is regarded as the absolute last resort because it endangers the Gods, just not as much as the Snarl does.

The Gods are only looking to destroy the current world because the Snarl is on the verge of escaping. A free Snarl is a major threat to the Gods, it having already wiped out one pantheon on its first appearance before anyone could react. If the snarl is destroyed or pacified then there is no need to destroy the world.

Far from not caring, the Gods have a memorial for every world destroyed by the snarl, and Thor at least remembers every person who has worshipped him. Likewise they have the memorial to remind them of the consequences of fighting amongst themselves.

We don't assume that the OOTS Gods are "on the good side" because we know that two thirds of them are either neutral or evil.

The Gods have never been portrayed as competent, no matter how their worshippers view them. Additionally, Odin's mental state and Thor's hair colour are explicitly stated as being the result of beliefs from previous worlds.

It is true, and even acknowledged in comic, that we don't know everything about the Snarl. But everything we have seen about the Snarl so far meshes exactly with what the Gods have said about it.

[Fyraltari]

To add to what Manga Shoggoth said, the Order of the Stick simply cannot take on the gods. Thor accidentally made Minrah and Durkon painfully shake by speaking too loudly once, remember?

[TRH]

To add to what Manga Shoggoth said, the Order of the Stick simply cannot take on thr gods. Thor accidentally made Minrah and Durkon painfully shake by speaking too loudly once, remember?

Also, they're about to get their asses handed to them by a single elderly halfling rogue who herself has been nothing but self-effacing about her martial prowess. Tackling gods after that would be quite a bit of whiplash.

[Fyraltari]

Also, they're about to get their asses handed to them by a single elderly halfling rogue

*Pressing X intensifies*

[TRH]

*Pressing X intensifies*

Betting on the Order defeating a new enemy in the first act, rather than having to struggle through a protracted amnesia arc? I'm just not bold enough to take that bet.

[Rrmcklin]

Betting on the Order defeating a new enemy in the first act, rather than having to struggle through a protracted amnesia arc? I'm just not bold enough to take that bet.

They could lose, but I just don't see how much that adds. And I definitely don't want any amnesia plots. Though, I don't know about them "defeating" Serini, I doubt it'll be conclusive either way, and some other hitch will be thrown in there.

[TRH]

They could lose, but I just don't see how much that adds. And I definitely don't want any amnesia plots. Though, I don't know about them "defeating" Serini, I doubt it'll be conclusive either way, and some other hitch will be thrown in there.

I don't like the idea, but this feels like an analogous part of the story to the Goodsmoot of last book, and Elan learning about Tarquin's stealth empire in the book before that. Serini should, if not completely succeed with her plan, at least still be in a position to carry it out at some later point following her encounter with the party. It's just too big and looming a threat to pass easily, and I don't see a ton of room for intermediate outcomes between her whomping the party and getting stomped herself.

[Precure]

Minrah: "Tell us what has happened, my lord. We won, didn't we? The Snarl was defeated?"

Thor: "The Snarl was defeated, Minrah. He was not destroyed. The Destroyer of Everything could never be destroyed. You forced him to flee this world. He agreed to do so, but at a high price. He will leave this world, but his creators must leave as well."

Minrah: "You're...not going, are you? You can't!"

Thor: "The other gods have already gone. I came to give you my thanks and have a last pint of beer with my favorite followers."

Minrah: "You can't do this! How can you leave us?"

Thor: "We make this sacrifice to save the creation we love, Minrah. Just as how The Order of the Stick sacrificed themselves to save what they loved."

Minrah: "I don't understand! What about the clerics? What about my magic? I can't feel it inside me anymore. Is there no more divine magic in this world?"

Thor: "Not as you know it. There may be other forms of divine magic, like those Creed of Stone guys on the Godsmoot. It is up to you to find it. Now is begun what will be known on this world as the Age of Mortals. It will be the final age, I think. The final, the longest, and, perhaps, the best. Farewell, Minrah. Farewell, my all of my followers."

[NerdyKris]

And gods directly create some races as evil.

Thor just explained that this did not actually happen, and multiple strips have stated that there are no "evil" races, just good and evil people.

Plus everything everyone else pointed out.

[ziproot]

Thor just explained that this did not actually happen, and multiple strips have stated that there are no "evil" races, just good and evil people.

Plus everything everyone else pointed out.

What about demons?

EDIT: Or devils, or daemons/yugoloths.

[mjasghar]

I think there’s word of Giant that the Order isn’t here to defeat the Snarl. The Snarl is the McGuffin, the rocket about to launch etc. The Order is here to stop Xykon using it.
In such stories the McGuffin is usually dealt with by higher beings - the gods or possibly MiTD depending on the reveal.

[Dr.Zero]

The Gods have a pragmatic reason for not destroying worlds "just for lulz or out of boredom". The worlds are their food source, and destroying the world is regarded as the absolute last resort because it endangers the Gods, just not as much as the Snarl does.


Well, some of the reasons to destroy the world were effectively lulz (from the evil, "piss on everyone's grave") and boredom ("I want to try a new coastline"), I put the "this world's season has ended" on the edge, not exactly boredom, bu surely uncaring.

And we know that at least some of the gods that don't want to destroy the world are influenced in this decision by the existence of a way to seal the Snarl effectively. Even more, we know that everyone in the North Pantheon knows about the Dark One, and some prefer to go on with the cycle of destruction instead of trying to deal with TDO (cfr when Thor shows Dukon the Major Image of the Gods bickering).

And I don't know that if it is possible to "try that natural evolution" in a world with fixed classes and races and, since they don't seem to be willing to get her hands dirty with changing an existing world, ...

Mostly I think, anyway, they won't destroy the world if not needed, because I suppose that creating wordls requires energy, and they want to get the more powerful souls possible from their investment.

[KorvinStarmast]

Far from not caring, the Gods have a memorial for every world destroyed by the snarl, and Thor at least remembers every person who has worshipped him. Likewise they have the memorial to remind them of the consequences of fighting amongst themselves. {snip}
It is true, and even acknowledged in comic, that we don't know everything about the Snarl. But everything we have seen about the Snarl so far meshes exactly with what the Gods have said about it. Man, that was a great post. *tips cap*

{snip} Thor: "Not as you know it. There may be other forms of divine magic, like those Creed of Stone guys on the Godsmoot. It is up to you to find it. Now is begun what will be known on this world as the Age of Mortals. It will be the final age, I think. The final, the longest, and, perhaps, the best. Farewell, Minrah. Farewell, my all of my followers." Beautiful. Thanks for that post. :smallcool:

I think there’s word of Giant that the Order isn’t here to defeat the Snarl. {snip} The Order is here to stop Xykon using it. Yep, and to fulfill the Greenhilt blood oath. :smallsmile:

[Wizard_Lizard]

Sounds like Holey Brotherhood propaganda ngl

[Precure]

Beautiful. Thanks for that post. :smallcool:

Glad you liked it, dude. *tips fedora*

[Kish]

I don't like the idea, but this feels like an analogous part of the story to the Goodsmoot of last book, and Elan learning about Tarquin's stealth empire in the book before that.
Greg was the main villain of the last book.

Tarquin was the main villain of the book before that.

This is the last book and as such its main villain is the series overall main villain; there is not going to be an equivalent "here is where we unveil this book's villain" section.

[TRH]

Greg was the main villain of the last book.

Tarquin was the main villain of the book before that.

This is the last book and as such its main villain is the series overall main villain; there is not going to be an equivalent "here is where we unveil this book's villain" section.

Maybe so, but we've already had conflicts between the main characters and the series' overall main villains. This is their first encounter with a significant new threat. It's pretty standard practice for early battles like this to go badly for the protagonist. And again, I don't see much point in introducing amnesia potion without it affecting at least several people.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't see much point in introducing amnesia potion without it affecting at least several people. While I'd love to see it hit Redcloak, that would be a cheap way of taking him out of play so I am pretty sure that Rich won't do that.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe so, but we've already had conflicts between the main characters and the series' overall main villains. This is their first encounter with a significant new threat. It's pretty standard practice for early battles like this to go badly for the protagonist. And again, I don't see much point in introducing amnesia potion without it affecting at least several people.

Establishing a threat? As in "here's what's going to happen if the heroes lose this fight". It's also characterization for Serini as it shows she's thorough enough to realize murdering people wouldn't stop their friends from checking on them. Or she's not confortable killing good people but needs to frame her mercy as a pragmatic rather than moral choice. Or both.

[Ionathus]

What about demons?

EDIT: Or devils, or daemons/yugoloths.

Outsiders are different than mortals: reading between the lines of Thor's explanation, they may even be 1-color beings, like the respective gods of each pantheon. Or they're not made up of any quiddities, and are just formed from the "thoughts that matter" of each plane.

Bottom line: they aren't mortal, they don't die in the traditional sense, they don't live lives of growth and change, and they are so far removed from the concerns of the Material Plane that they should be considered more alien than human. "Literal embodiment of ABC" is different than "created by an Evil god but also is mortal and has free will"


While I'd love to see it hit Redcloak, that would be a cheap way of taking him out of play so I am pretty sure that Rich won't do that.

Agreed, and in fact I'll raise. My money's on "amnesia potion won't be used at all." I don't think everything that's referenced ALWAYS has to turn into a Chekhov's Gun -- remember when Durkon talked about casting Planar Ally back at Girard's Gate?

We've got too much stuff to get through for any wasted time on relearning things, plus amnesia plots are played out - but maybe that's my personal tastes coming through :smalltongue:

[TRH]

Agreed, and in fact I'll raise. My money's on "amnesia potion won't be used at all." I don't think everything that's referenced ALWAYS has to turn into a Chekhov's Gun -- remember when Durkon talked about casting Planar Ally back at Girard's Gate?


Bad example, because he did use the spell - after dying, to summon that Barbed Devil.

[Fyraltari]

While I'd love to see it hit Redcloak, that would be a cheap way of taking him out of play so I am pretty sure that Rich won't do that.

Wait do people keep their experience points if they forget the related experiences? Redcloak as a level 1 Cleric isn't of any use to any one.

[Ionathus]

Bad example, because he did use the spell - after dying, to summon that Barbed Devil.

Hmm, touché. I didn't realize that was the same spell! I guess I'd just assumed Vampire Durkon had a different spellcasting focus than regular Durkon and was more focused on summoning spells.

[TRH]

Wait do people keep their experience points if they forget the related experiences? Redcloak as a level 1 Cleric isn't of any use to any one.

Well, if XP and memories of experiences had a 1 to 1 correlation, then you'd be unable to cast permanency or planar ally without suffering a bit of amnesia.

[Fyraltari]

Well, if XP and memories of experiences had a 1 to 1 correlation, then you'd be unable to cast permanency or planar ally without suffering a bit of amnesia.

Do you lose XP while casting those spells? I suppose you could roleplay that as a light memory loss, your character forgetting some things about how their magic works.

[TRH]

Do you lose XP while casting those spells? I suppose you could roleplay that as a light memory loss, your character forgetting some things about how their magic works.

I never played high-level 3.5 to know, but I assume that's what's meant by paying XP for certain spells.

[WindStruck]

Well I do think that with the prospect of ending the threat of The Snarl forever, the Gods may start to think that this world was just going to be another throwaway world they didn't care about or put too much thought into anyway... now they can go back to something they really care about!


Also, something doesn't seem right. Thor mentions that if he was to try to talk to the Dark One personally, that their interactions could create a mini 2-colored snarl which would be dangerous!

But...

Does this mean, since this mini-snarl is made of 2 colors, which is more than the gods which are only made of one color, and mortals are made of 3 characters, that the mortals should therefore be much much stronger?

Something here does not add up. If 2-colored mini snarls are dangerous, than mortals, which are made up of 3 characters must be even more dangerous. If gods can easily kill mortals, then they should easily be able to deal with a mini snarl.

[Fyraltari]

Well I do think that with the prospect of ending the threat of The Snarl forever, the Gods may start to think that this world was just going to be another throwaway world they didn't care about or put too much thought into anyway... now they can go back to something they really care about!


Also, something doesn't seem right. Thor mentions that if he was to try to talk to the Dark One personally, that their interactions could create a mini 2-colored snarl which would be dangerous!

But...

Does this mean, since this mini-snarl is made of 2 colors, which is more than the gods which are only made of one color, and mortals are made of 3 characters, that the mortals should therefore be much much stronger?

Something here does not add up. If 2-colored mini snarls are dangerous, than mortals, which are made up of 3 characters must be even more dangerous. If gods can easily kill mortals, then they should easily be able to deal with a mini snarl.

Mortals, being made of three divine essences are more "real" than gods and therefore would always win a fight against a god of a similar level. It doesn't matter that a mortal's attack does three time as much damage against a god than it does against a fellow mortal when that god has 3 orders of magnitude more HP and their attack deal 2, 000 HP loss per turn (numbers made up on the fly to illustrate the point).

The Snarl, however, is in the right ballpark for the difference in number of quiddities to matter. A second Snarl might be too. They don't know for sure but they don't feelblike risking it.

[pearl jam]

Experience points are a quantification of your experiences. They are not your experiences. I mean, you could certainly have a setting where it works as you suggest, but I think if we're connecting the two in that way that it would be that a (temporary) loss of memory could result in an accompanying (temporary) loss of xp and possibly abilities.

In terms of spell xp cost, I think it's more like casting these spells requires so much energy/will/whatever that it weakens you somewhat, possibly causing you to lose access to certain abilities (if you lose a level) until you are "recovered".

But I don't think your experience points are literally your experiences and losing them means you forget your experiences is meant to be the standard.

[russdm]

Minrah: "Tell us what has happened, my lord. We won, didn't we? The Snarl was defeated?"

Thor: "The Snarl was defeated, Minrah. He was not destroyed. The Destroyer of Everything could never be destroyed. You forced him to flee this world. He agreed to do so, but at a high price. He will leave this world, but his creators must leave as well."

Minrah: "You're...not going, are you? You can't!"

Thor: "The other gods have already gone. I came to give you my thanks and have a last pint of beer with my favorite followers."

Minrah: "You can't do this! How can you leave us?"

Thor: "We make this sacrifice to save the creation we love, Minrah. Just as how The Order of the Stick sacrificed themselves to save what they loved."

Minrah: "I don't understand! What about the clerics? What about my magic? I can't feel it inside me anymore. Is there no more divine magic in this world?"

Thor: "Not as you know it. There may be other forms of divine magic, like those Creed of Stone guys on the Godsmoot. It is up to you to find it. Now is begun what will be known on this world as the Age of Mortals. It will be the final age, I think. The final, the longest, and, perhaps, the best. Farewell, Minrah. Farewell, my all of my followers."

I think that you are quoting from the dragonlance dragons of summer flame book. Feels like the conversation that paladine has in that book

[Precure]

I think that you are quoting from the dragonlance dragons of summer flame book. Feels like the conversation that paladine has in that book

I'm guilty as charged.