More Dragon Cohort optimization questions!

[Melcar]

So, I have been looking through this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)) nice guide as part of building my dragon cohort. Mainly to gain inspiration but also to get a handle of some of the rules governing the interaction of classes and RHD etc.

I have also asked some questions here, over the last months, where I have gotten a lot of great answers and help. So, thank you all for that. Now, I have encountered something which I'm unsure of how to handle, so I again turn to you guys for help.

The Red Dragon wyrmling, very young and young all have a certain LA associated with their age category (4, 5, and 6), however from juvenile and on, there it says: "LA: -"... So what does this mean for me, having a red dragon cohort?

I'm going to attract it when I'm level 13, using the dragon cohort feat to gain it at LA-3, so I can get a dragon with ECL 12 (which is a very young). My plan is to advance it to young as ASAP, but, what happens if my dragon reaches juvenile? What is the LA then? How would I handle my dragon cohort advancing to that age category?

Thanks in advance!

[DarkSoul]

I think the most expedient solution would be to simply remove the cohort status from the dragon and negotiate its continued service using the suggestions for dragon mounts on the pages immediately preceding the "Dragons as Cohorts" section. Depending on how much you can speed up the dragon's growth, it may not be worth spending a feat slot on and just negotiate with a juvenile instead.

[Melcar]

I think the most expedient solution would be to simply remove the cohort status from the dragon and negotiate its continued service using the suggestions for dragon mounts on the pages immediately preceding the "Dragons as Cohorts" section. Depending on how much you can speed up the dragon's growth, it may not be worth spending a feat slot on and just negotiate with a juvenile instead.

Problem with that is I want full control over it, or at least as much control as is possible under the cohort rules... I can speed it up a lot... with multiple casting of Bestow Curse, I can have it be Great Wyrm in a minute...

But, barring that kind of cheese, I am simply looking to an answer to what "LA: -" means... I assume its removed entirely when reaching age category of juvenile and above??

[Segev]

"LA: -" means it is not suitable as a PC nor cohort. The DM would have to house rule it as being allowed, and come up with a rating.

Have you considered advancing your red dragon cohort with class levels? This is what I did with a white wyrmling cohort. He started becoming multicolored and advance as a Dragonfire Adept.

[Melcar]

"LA: -" means it is not suitable as a PC nor cohort. The DM would have to house rule it as being allowed, and come up with a rating.

Have you considered advancing your red dragon cohort with class levels? This is what I did with a white wyrmling cohort. He started becoming multicolored and advance as a Dragonfire Adept.

Yes, naturally I'm going to give it class levels. Haven't figured out which ones yet though. However, I would really like it to gain age categories also, espesially to improve its breath weapon. I mostly want to to stay just a powerful dragon, using dragon abilities. Not to say I don't want spellcasting, but its secondary to me. I'd rather have powerful dragon abilities than powerful spellcasting.

So, I'm trying to figure out how to increase its age categories as much as possible. While still retaining it as a cohort.

[Segev]

Yes, naturally I'm going to give it class levels. Haven't figured out which ones yet though. However, I would really like it to gain age categories also, espesially to improve its breath weapon. I mostly want to to stay just a powerful dragon, using dragon abilities. Not to say I don't want spellcasting, but its secondary to me. I'd rather have powerful dragon abilities than powerful spellcasting.

So, I'm trying to figure out how to increase its age categories as much as possible. While still retaining it as a cohort.

Look up the Dragonfire Adept class. I think you'll find it works pretty well for a dragon. You may want to try to negotiate some modification to your native breath and the dragonfire breath class feature so one improves the other. How to balance that is probably table-specific, though.

But the Dragonfire Adept gives any PC "dragon-like" class features. It works very nicely on an actual dragon, especially one with low LA and RHD. Makes them more "dragon-y" as they level up, though it won't make them bigger as per age categories.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragon Magazine #332 has savage progressions for various evil dragon types, all the way up through level 20. Maybe follow those?

Although the amount of LA inherent in those things makes me want to jam my fingers in my eyes every time I see them, so maybe start adding racial HD on some of the blank levels?

[Remuko]

I dont know where my draconomicon is atm, but I could have swore there was info on this exact scenario in there and it said once a dragon was old enough (basically when its LA becomes -) that it wants to go off on its own and can no longer be a Cohort, but could be bargained with like a normal non-cohort NPC or somesuch.

long and short of the matter is I don't think theres anything you can do. you can try to take classes that enhance your dragons abilities, but if it ages too much I think you lose it no matter what.

[Melcar]

I dont know where my draconomicon is atm, but I could have swore there was info on this exact scenario in there and it said once a dragon was old enough (basically when its LA becomes -) that it wants to go off on its own and can no longer be a Cohort, but could be bargained with like a normal non-cohort NPC or somesuch.

long and short of the matter is I don't think theres anything you can do. you can try to take classes that enhance your dragons abilities, but if it ages too much I think you lose it no matter what.

Ok... That sounds a bit weird, but I’ll be checking that out... strange way to handle a feat though!

[Segev]

Ok... That sounds a bit weird, but I’ll be checking that out... strange way to handle a feat though!

To be fair, in most campaigns, not enough time will pass to move from the start of an age category to the end. You can at most get one age-up by claiming to have been on the cusp of it already. And nothing in the RAW says that, if your cohort parts ways with you, you can't recruit a new one.

[Melcar]

To be fair, in most campaigns, not enough time will pass to move from the start of an age category to the end. You can at most get one age-up by claiming to have been on the cusp of it already. And nothing in the RAW says that, if your cohort parts ways with you, you can't recruit a new one.

I guess you are right... in most campaigns that is probably true. I have no clue how long our campaign will run, but if the dragon cohort is supposed to make an impact in our fairly high optimized group, it would be great to have it be at least juvenile

LA buy-off is basically out of the question at this point... I mean a very young dragon would need 15 class levels to reduce it by1 LA... I haven't even calculated how many levels in total it would need to remove all 5 LAs.

So, I'm going to be talking to my DM about removing the LA all together. Barring that, I'm hoping to be able to add a few templates. Specifically Warbeast, Spellhording and possible Fiendish. I know warbeast is only for animals, but maybe he'll let me train my dragon for war... Sovereign Archetypes is another thing I'm going to ask about, but setting specific things from other campaign settings have so far been banned!

If that all fails I'm going to have to content with class levels. And well, its not exactly why I wanted a dragon. The LA and the RHD is such a pain when trying to build a character with class levels, so I'd rather have it increase primarily in RHD... But that is impossible it seems, even with cheesy fast aging from bestow curse.

So, in all honesty I'm fairly disappointed in the rules for having a dragon cohort. What I really want is to be Daenerys Targaryen and ride a huge red dragon... that seems fairly out of the question unless DM house rules something.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually...

If you have your dragon take the savage progression in Dragon Magazine, he'll only ever have +1 LA, so it can be bought off immediately. So once he hits 4th level, buy off that +1 LA, since that's all he's got. Now he's only a few thousand XP away from gaining 5th level (now his 4th level). Once he has enough XP to gain 6th level, buy it off immediately, since he's only got +1 LA at that point, and repeat.

[Melcar]

Actually...

If you have your dragon take the savage progression in Dragon Magazine, he'll only ever have +1 LA, so it can be bought off immediately. So once he hits 4th level, buy off that +1 LA, since that's all he's got. Now he's only a few thousand XP away from gaining 5th level (now his 4th level). Once he has enough XP to gain 6th level, buy it off immediately, since he's only got +1 LA at that point, and repeat.

Well that sounds more like it! In which Dragon Magazine is this?

Thanks!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well that sounds more like it! In which Dragon Magazine is this?

Thanks!Dragon #332, page 29.

[Melcar]

Dragon #332, page 29.

Ok, so need some help understanding why and how a dragon that has taken levels in its own racial class is only LA1... Maybe there is some inherent rule here I don't know about... I'm clueless :smallredface:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ok, so need some help understanding why and how a dragon that has taken levels in its own racial class is only LA1... Maybe there is some inherent rule here I don't know about... I'm clueless :smallredface:He'll still be weaker than most PCs his level, even without any LA. LA is very poorly done, and thus most savage progressions are, as well. He did spend XP to get rid of them, so he's paid his dues.

"I sacrificed my life force to make myself stronger. It's not my fault you can't do the same."

[One Step Two]

So, in all honesty I'm fairly disappointed in the rules for having a dragon cohort. What I really want is to be Daenerys Targaryen and ride a huge red dragon... that seems fairly out of the question unless DM house rules something.

You're not wrong about the wonkiness of the rules with regards to Dragons as Cohorts, especially because LA reduction is impeded by RHD to boot.

To use your example:
By the rules as given, when you're a 13th level character with the Dragon Cohort Feat you can have a LA 12 Dragon, you mentioned you wanted a Red Dragon, which is a Wyrmling Red, 7 Hit Dice, +4 LA, and either 1 class level of your choosing, or +1 Dragon Hit Dice, making the assumption the Dragon is 2 years old already. During the Campaign, it will gain Exp as per the Leadership rules for a Cohort, to advances it's Class levels, and according to Draconomicon pg. 143, a set number of years it will increase ECL through HD and LA no matter what. Meaning that unless you keep ahead of it, it's entirely possible for the Dragon to abandon you if it gains ECL beyond what you're legally allowed to have, at which point, you'd need to try and attract a new Dragon Cohort.

In regards to of the Dragon Savage progressions and LA buyoff, depending on your DM's interpretations of the rules, the line:
"Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1."
Means that you cannot buy off LA when part of a savage progression, he might handwave it though, never hurts to ask.

If your DM is open to being a little more permissive, perhaps point them to the LA assignment thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624824-LA-Assignment-Thread-X-New-Year-New-Management-Same-Old-Unplayable-Monsters) and the fact most dragons aren't worth their LA in a party of near-level allies, this should give you a little more freedom in how they are built, letting you start with a Very Young Red instead.

[Melcar]

You're not wrong about the wonkiness of the rules with regards to Dragons as Cohorts, especially because LA reduction is impeded by RHD to boot.

To use your example:
By the rules as given, when you're a 13th level character with the Dragon Cohort Feat you can have a LA 12 Dragon, you mentioned you wanted a Red Dragon, which is a Wyrmling Red, 7 Hit Dice, +4 LA, and either 1 class level of your choosing, or +1 Dragon Hit Dice, making the assumption the Dragon is 2 years old already. During the Campaign, it will gain Exp as per the Leadership rules for a Cohort, to advances it's Class levels, and according to Draconomicon pg. 143, a set number of years it will increase ECL through HD and LA no matter what. Meaning that unless you keep ahead of it, it's entirely possible for the Dragon to abandon you if it gains ECL beyond what you're legally allowed to have, at which point, you'd need to try and attract a new Dragon Cohort.

In regards to of the Dragon Savage progressions and LA buyoff, depending on your DM's interpretations of the rules, the line:
"Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1."
Means that you cannot buy off LA when part of a savage progression, he might handwave it though, never hurts to ask.

If your DM is open to being a little more permissive, perhaps point them to the LA assignment thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624824-LA-Assignment-Thread-X-New-Year-New-Management-Same-Old-Unplayable-Monsters) and the fact most dragons aren't worth their LA in a party of near-level allies, this should give you a little more freedom in how they are built, letting you start with a Very Young Red instead.

Assuming my DM will allow me to buy off LA using the savage progression in DR#332, if my calculations are correct, it would cost me a total of 48000 exp to buy off all 6 LA. Now, since the dragon cohort feat allows you to attrack a dragon with 3 higher than normal, and I have the Close Cohort feat, I can, as a level 12 (when I actually took the feat) attract a HD/ECL 14 dragon. But since I have bought off 6 LA for 48k exp, can I now only attrackt a HD/ECL 9 dragon? Is this correctly understood?

Also, I is there any way to have my dragon cohort catch up to me, and again be only 1 level from me instead of 5?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, you could calculate how much XP the dragon would get as a result of being so far behind as it tried to catch up. That would mitigate at least a sizeable chunk of the problem.

[Segev]

I guess you are right... in most campaigns that is probably true. I have no clue how long our campaign will run, but if the dragon cohort is supposed to make an impact in our fairly high optimized group, it would be great to have it be at least juvenile

LA buy-off is basically out of the question at this point... I mean a very young dragon would need 15 class levels to reduce it by1 LA... I haven't even calculated how many levels in total it would need to remove all 5 LAs.

So, I'm going to be talking to my DM about removing the LA all together. Barring that, I'm hoping to be able to add a few templates. Specifically Warbeast, Spellhording and possible Fiendish. I know warbeast is only for animals, but maybe he'll let me train my dragon for war... Sovereign Archetypes is another thing I'm going to ask about, but setting specific things from other campaign settings have so far been banned!

If that all fails I'm going to have to content with class levels. And well, its not exactly why I wanted a dragon. The LA and the RHD is such a pain when trying to build a character with class levels, so I'd rather have it increase primarily in RHD... But that is impossible it seems, even with cheesy fast aging from bestow curse.

So, in all honesty I'm fairly disappointed in the rules for having a dragon cohort. What I really want is to be Daenerys Targaryen and ride a huge red dragon... that seems fairly out of the question unless DM house rules something.

Two ideas: one, ask if you can treat the CR as ECL. Not LA; ECL. This makes the RHD and LA uncoupled from the effective character level.

Two, use the "negotiate for a year of partnership" rules. They'll get you whatever age dragon mount you want, as long as you can afford it.

[Melcar]

Well, you could calculate how much XP the dragon would get as a result of being so far behind as it tried to catch up. That would mitigate at least a sizeable chunk of the problem.

The problem with that is, the way Cohorts get exp. So no matter what level, you are, or how much exp you get, they will always stay the same amount of levels behind you. Which is anoying. Maybe there's a way of homebrewing some sort of buyoff, where I can allocate my own exp to the cohort or something...


Two ideas: one, ask if you can treat the CR as ECL. Not LA; ECL. This makes the RHD and LA uncoupled from the effective character level.

Two, use the "negotiate for a year of partnership" rules. They'll get you whatever age dragon mount you want, as long as you can afford it.

I'll be looking into that.