Warrior of Darkness PrC?

[danielxcutter]

Warrior of Darkness is a PrC from the Book of Puppy Kicking, sorry the Book of Vile Darkness.

Some of the PrCs suck, some are actually decent, and I dunno about this one.

I mean, it's far from nothing that's for sure, just don't know how good it is and if so what options are good.

It's probably somewhere below ToB, but I've still seen much worse. At the least, it's probably flavorable I guess? Some of the options do look good though - even if it's only 3/day the Malign Fury option is basically quasi-Pounce.

[Beni-Kujaku]

How good is it? Absolutely not. It's wholly evil!

In the end, there is not that much good that comes out of the dark oil and elixir. The best oils are those that give you +10ft and pounce, which is less than a dip in barbarian when you think about it. And I'm not really sure how I feel about the elixir. I believe I would almost only take one of the fighter feats instead of any other benefit (tremorsense is not that good when you get it around lv10, and if Demon wings is interesting, the 1/day kills it. Just buy an item.), which makes these levels less than fighter levels.

The real kicker, though, are the Darkling weapon, the DR 5/Good and the SR 20. Darkling weapon is pretty expensive, but giving a property of your choice to any weapon in the party is reaaaally good. If you know you're fighting a Beholder, poof, everyone has aberration-Bane weapon! A dread wraith? Poof, everyone has ghosttouch. I love this ability. The other defensive abilities are nice by themselves, but I wouldn't mind only getting 2 levels of WoD just for that (and you can get rapid step with the first level, since it stacks with the barbarian dip you're going to take anyway).

[danielxcutter]

How good is it? Absolutely not. It's wholly evil!

Damnit I should have known someone would make that joke.


In the end, there is not that much good that comes out of the dark oil and elixir. The best oils are those that give you +10ft and pounce, which is less than a dip in barbarian when you think about it. And I'm not really sure how I feel about the elixir. I believe I would almost only take one of the fighter feats instead of any other benefit (tremorsense is not that good when you get it around lv10, and if Demon wings is interesting, the 1/day kills it. Just buy an item.), which makes these levels less than fighter levels.

Hmm, yeah... and inherent bonuses aren't much when it's only a +1 that doesn't stack.


The real kicker, though, are the Darkling weapon, the DR 5/Good and the SR 20. Darkling weapon is pretty expensive, but giving a property of your choice to any weapon in the party is reaaaally good. If you know you're fighting a Beholder, poof, everyone has aberration-Bane weapon! A dread wraith? Poof, everyone has ghosttouch. I love this ability. The other defensive abilities are nice by themselves, but I wouldn't mind only getting 2 levels of WoD just for that (and you can get rapid step with the first level, since it stacks with the barbarian dip you're going to take anyway).

Er, I don't think the DR is 5/Good. It's 5/+3, which translates to 5/magic in 3.5e. So... yeah. Also Darkling Weapon takes a bit of prep time.

[Thurbane]

It's one of the less-sucky non initiator full BAB prestige classes, for sure. I am a fan of classes that offer multiple options, as well.

I kind of wish, though, that it had been like a reversed version of Sword of Righteousness: 3 levels for 3 bonus (vile) feats. I know you can get free vile feats for worshiping an elder evil, but there's quite a lot of decent vile feats out there. And sometimes worshiping an elder evil isn't a great fit for certain characters.

[danielxcutter]

It's one of the less-sucky non initiator full BAB prestige classes, for sure. I am a fan of classes that offer multiple options, as well.

I kind of wish, though, that it had been like a reversed version of Sword of Righteousness: 3 levels for 3 bonus (vile) feats. I know you can get free vile feats for worshiping an elder evil, but there's quite a lot of decent vile feats out there. And sometimes worshiping an elder evil isn't a great fit for certain characters.

Yeah, most Elder Evils aren’t compatible with the “oath” feats like Thrall to Demon in terms of fluff. I’m under the impression most archfiends don’t want the Material to die off.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It gets a decent chassis: full BAB, good Fort and Will saves, d10 HD, and four base skill points/level. The prerequisites are fairly easy, +5 BAB, Iron Will (which can be gained from the Otyugh Hole), and several skills, plus a special requirement that makes gaining it somewhat dependent on the DM.

Black Magic Oil is gained four times, the best choices are probably +10 ft. speed and an extra move-action, plus whichever other ones you like best. Black Magic Elixir is gained three times, and can get you Tremorsense 60 ft. and probably two bonus feats. If the ability score bonuses weren't inherent bonuses those would be much better choices.

The 5/+3 DR was actually decent back then, as not much could overcome it, but converting it to 5/magic makes it pretty much worthless. SR 20 at character level 13+ is nothing to write home about.

If you have a high enough Cha bonus (+8) to get the above Black Magic Oil/Elixir abilities by its 4th level, it's only a 4-level class IMO. However, that can typically only be accomplished by taking it very late, or using a lot more cheese than it's worth. It's decent as a 4-level filler after maxing out Blackguard 10 at 16th level, for example.

[Elves]

What's strange about this PRC is none of its abilities other than the "+2d6 damage against good creatures" option relate to evil or darkness. They're generic combat abilities that the fluff claims are evil.

[danielxcutter]

What's strange about this PRC is none of its abilities other than the "+2d6 damage against good creatures" option relate to evil or darkness. They're generic combat abilities that the fluff claims are evil.

Demon Wings probably counts, but otherwise yeah.

[Tzardok]

Er, I don't think the DR is 5/Good. It's 5/+3, which translates to 5/magic in 3.5e. So... yeah. Also Darkling Weapon takes a bit of prep time.

Did the BoVD get an official conversion to 3.5? If not, there's nobody who says that you can't convert the DR to 5/Good. I mean, in 3.0 there was no alignment or material based DR, so if something besides magic based DR fits better, go for it.
That also counteracts the "just generic abilities with evil fluff" a bit.

[Darg]

Hmm, yeah... and inherent bonuses aren't much when it's only a +1 that doesn't stack.

Inherent bonuses stack. It's not a type of bonus but stating that it is inherent. Like your level up bonus.

Making most of the abilities stack is probably warranted anyway.

[Tzardok]

Inherent bonuses stack. It's not a type of bonus but stating that it is inherent. Like your level up bonus.

Making most of the abilities stack is probably warranted anyway.

That's wrong. Inherent boni are covered on page 21 in the DMG as one of the standard bonus types. That makes them unstackable with each other. The description of the spell Wish concurs and states that only the highest inherent bonus to an attribut counts.

[Darg]

That's wrong. Inherent boni are covered on page 21 in the DMG as one of the standard bonus types. That makes them unstackable with each other. The description of the spell Wish concurs and states that only the highest inherent bonus to an attribut counts.

I guess I was confusing it because the +10 speed is inherent too when inherent bonuses are supposed to only apply to ability scores. You are right though. Still, I think the ability benefits could use a little bit of stacking action.

[ShurikVch]

The description of the spell Wish concurs and states that only the highest inherent bonus to an attribut counts.
Then what's about the Forsaker (Masters of the Wild)?

Ability Bonus (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, the character gains a +1 inherent bonus to any desired ability score for each forsaker level.

[Darg]

Then what's about the Forsaker (Masters of the Wild)?

Maybe the general idea is that bonuses from the same ability stack with itself as it is technically the same effect? In that light, the inherent bonuses from the class stack with itself as it is a singular source of an effect. This would also apply to Warrior of Darkness. It would let the class function similarly to its counterpart, anointed knight.

[Thurbane]

That's wrong. Inherent boni are covered on page 21 in the DMG as one of the standard bonus types. That makes them unstackable with each other. The description of the spell Wish concurs and states that only the highest inherent bonus to an attribut counts.

My understanding was the inherent bonuses do stack, but up to a maximum of 5 for each ability score, regardless of source (wish spell, magical tome, class features etc.).

I did find the following under the Wish spell, but I thought there was a general rule as well. Maybe this is specific to wish? If so, that makes magical tomes less than +5 very unappealing.


Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.



Did the BoVD get an official conversion to 3.5? If not, there's nobody who says that you can't convert the DR to 5/Good. I mean, in 3.0 there was no alignment or material based DR, so if something besides magic based DR fits better, go for it.
That also counteracts the "just generic abilities with evil fluff" a bit.

Huh. There you go, never realized that material and alignment DR wasn't around in 3.0.

To be fair though, I mostly skipped this edition. We had a long hiatus after 2E, and our group only reformed once 3.5 was out.

The completely unofficial BoVD 3.5 update Leaflets of Triel (http://images.wikia.com/d20npcs/images/c/cc/Leaflets_of_Triel.pdf) says to use DR 5/magic, but I agree DR 5/good is more thematic and useful.

[Tzardok]

My understanding was the inherent bonuses do stack, but up to a maximum of 5 for each ability score, regardless of source (wish spell, magical tome, class features etc.).

I did find the following under the Wish spell, but I thought there was a general rule as well. Maybe this is specific to wish? If so, that makes magical tomes less than +5 very unappealing.


The way I understood the quote from Wish it essentially says "You can cast up five wishes at once to give an inherent bonus to an attribute. But if you cast three wishes now, take a break, and cast two wishes later, you will have an inherent bonus of +3 and one of +2, so only the +3 counts as they don't stack."

[Thurbane]

The way I understood the quote from Wish it essentially says "You can cast up five wishes at once to give an inherent bonus to an attribute. But if you cast three wishes now, take a break, and cast two wishes later, you will have an inherent bonus of +3 and one of +2, so only the +3 counts as they don't stack."

Yeah, that looks to be correct. Looks like I had misunderstood how inherent bonuses work/stack.

So, not much point using tomes until you can afford 137,500gp for the +5 version. :smallfrown:

I'll definitely be house-ruling this to work the the way I thought it did in my own games.

[liquidformat]

So my google-fu sucks too much to find it, but a couple years back there was a GitP post about how to abuse Warrior of Darkness PrC. It was done as a narrative story from the perspective of a paper pusher devil that has noticed an error that a Warrior of Darkness has been getting lots of benefits without paying for it with his soul.

Anyways the idea was, if I am remembering correctly, since Black Magic Elixir and Oil provide permanent benefits you can just keep taking class levels then get hit with negative levels and stack up a bunch of feats and abilities. If I remember correctly the sweet spot is continuously floating between level 2 and 4.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So my google-fu sucks too much to find it, but a couple years back there was a GitP post about how to abuse Warrior of Darkness PrC. It was done as a narrative story from the perspective of a paper pusher devil that has noticed an error that a Warrior of Darkness has been getting lots of benefits without paying for it with his soul.

Anyways the idea was, if I am remembering correctly, since Black Magic Elixir and Oil provide permanent benefits you can just keep taking class levels then get hit with negative levels and stack up a bunch of feats and abilities. If I remember correctly the sweet spot is continuously floating between level 2 and 4.

That... is an extremely good point. You could rule that "each time you gain this ability (1st, 4th, 7th and 10th level)" means that you can only get the oil of a specific level once, but even then, you can go all the way to level 10, gain all the oils and elixirs, then get drained and go in another class altogether.

[liquidformat]

That... is an extremely good point. You could rule that "each time you gain this ability (1st, 4th, 7th and 10th level)" means that you can only get the oil of a specific level once, but even then, you can go all the way to level 10, gain all the oils and elixirs, then get drained and go in another class altogether.

Very true, though I think there is RAW and RAI support for abusing the class, granted outside of very OP games and TO it will probably get a book or two thrown at you...

[ShurikVch]

I mean, in 3.0 there was no alignment or material based DR

Huh. There you go, never realized that material and alignment DR wasn't around in 3.0.
Actually, DR/silver was in 3.0 too: at the very least, for Bodak, Cloaked Ape, Corollax, Dretch, Half-Golems (Clay and Flesh), Imp, Jovoc, Lemure, Lycanthrope, Quasit, and Vaporighu

[Falontani]

My understanding was the inherent bonuses do stack, but up to a maximum of 5 for each ability score, regardless of source (wish spell, magical tome, class features etc.).

I did find the following under the Wish spell, but I thought there was a general rule as well. Maybe this is specific to wish? If so, that makes magical tomes less than +5 very unappealing.



I was under the same impression though Thurbane. Unless we both read the same thread with the misconception and both took it as true, then there is probably something somewhere that says it in that way. But us both reading a thread with such a misconception is quite plausible...