Restore health on Kill - Character Idea

[Tammerin]

I saw the 2nd level harvest ability from the necromancer subclass of wizards, and was wondering if there was a way to make this easier to pull off. The character doesn't need to be a wizard. He could be anything. My only goal is to regain health on kill, or per certain abilities. I don't want to multiclass. I'm just looking for a solid way to pull of a vampiric playstyle, similar to what blood death knights can do in world of warcraft.

Any advice is appreciated.

Edit: This character is starting first level, by the way.

[MoiMagnus]

I'm pretty sure there is no unlimited healing published, so any "heal when kill" would have to have some limits (limited by the number of spell slots, etc).

The warlock's fiend pact is an unlimited "heal" when killing, but it only grants temporary hit points (which are not stackable) so that it doesn't get abused. (the sword of life stealing give temporary hit points too)

[Tammerin]

In that case, I was wondering if there was a way to boost spell damage for necromancers. I've played 3.5 and pathfinder, but I'm still quite new to 5e.

[sayaijin]

To expound on MoiMagnus' point, healing isn't as critical in 5e as it was in previous editions because there's no negative HP. The idea of regaining HP every time you kill an enemy sounds fun, but gaining THP is good enough.

Another subclass to look at is the long death monk. Just like the fiend warlock they get THP when they kill an enemy.

Ultimately your DM may be open to homebrew or giving you actual HP instead of just THP with those other classes, but it is easily "cheesed" if they allow it (bag of rats, anyone?).

[MaxWilson]

I saw the 2nd level harvest ability from the necromancer subclass of wizards, and was wondering if there was a way to make this easier to pull off. The character doesn't need to be a wizard. He could be anything. My only goal is to regain health on kill, or per certain abilities. I don't want to multiclass. I'm just looking for a solid way to pull of a vampiric playstyle, similar to what blood death knights can do in world of warcraft.

Any advice is appreciated.

Edit: This character is starting first level, by the way.

Play a Long Death monk with the healer feat. Starting at level 3, every time you reduce an enemy creature to zero HP, you gain temp HP. Temp HP don't stack, but it's still free virtual healing.

The thing is, when you reduce an enemy to zero HP, you don't have to kill them! Per PHB rules on nonlethal attacks, a melee attacker can choose to just knock an enemy unconscious. Then if you want more temp HP later, use Healer to bring them back to 1 HP. Then knock them out again for more temp HP. Rinse and repeat as needed, while using Healer on yourself and the rest of the party to stay healthy.

[LudicSavant]

I'm pretty sure there is no unlimited healing published

One of my Wizard builds in the Eclectic thread gets infinite healing in Tier 4 (though not by killing things. Just... all the time).

[stoutstien]

Both the long death monk and fiend patron warlock gain some sizable THP numbers on kills.

Grim harvest should also work with spirit shroud because it's worded in a way that limits the healing to once per turn but not once per spell slot/castings.

I wish there was better leech life concepts in 5e but atm you have to really force it. Without multi-classing your best bet is to focus on any damage spell that can deal damage on multiple turns like cloud of daggers. Note that grim harvest isn't limited to enemies either.

[LudicSavant]

Before you go ahead recommending things like Fiend Warlock, Long Death Monk, or Death Cleric, it looks like the OP specifically wants advice for Necromancers. And specifically one that does not multiclass.


I was wondering if there was a way to boost spell damage for necromancers. I've played 3.5 and pathfinder, but I'm still quite new to 5e.

I don't want to multiclass.

There aren't a lot of good direct damage Necromancy spells, but thankfully Grim Harvest works on any spell of 1st level or higher. So you can take the stuff that's already good (like Magic Missile, Fireball, Crown of Stars, etc), and have that supplement your core schtick of making undead eat people's faces.

A good way to take advantage of Grim Harvest is hazard spells. You can use your undead army to block off key squares (preventing or punishing escape), and also to grapple people into things to trigger "enters" clauses. Additionally, Grim Harvest can activate once per turn -- which means persistent effects can trigger it multiple times.

So for example you can set up a Wall of Fire, block the way out with zombies/skeletons, and grapple people in and out to trigger high, repeated, no-save damage.

Any spell that deals damage on separate turns will be extra good for Grim Harvest (for example, things that deal damage "when an enemy starts its turn there") because it means you can activate Grim Harvest multiple times. (Since you're new to 5e, an important reminder: a turn is not a round. There are multiple turns in a round)

Another trick you can take advantage of is the fact that your undead minions are immune to poison, so you can stick them inside of poison AoEs (somewhat similar to the Sculpt Spell tricks optimized Evokers use).

[sayaijin]

With all due respect, LudicSavant, he wants any way to get unlimited healing. He specifically states it doesn't need to be a wizard.


I saw the 2nd level harvest ability from the necromancer subclass of wizards, and was wondering if there was a way to make this easier to pull off. The character doesn't need to be a wizard. He could be anything. My only goal is to regain health on kill, or per certain abilities. I don't want to multiclass. I'm just looking for a solid way to pull of a vampiric playstyle, similar to what blood death knights can do in world of warcraft.

Any advice is appreciated.

Edit: This character is starting first level, by the way.

He later changed his question when he realized the necrowizard is the only class/subclass ability to get healing instead of temp HP.

The best answer to his question is to either do more damage with necromancy spells or go a different route that gives temp HP.

[LudicSavant]

He later changed his question

Fair enough, he originally said it doesn't have to be a Wizard before he posed a new question. I don't see where he mentions unlimited healing, though? Just on-kill healing. Perhaps I'm missing something.


The best answer to his question is to either do more damage with necromancy spells or go a different route that gives temp HP.

Important note: Many of the most synergistic spells and tactics for the Necromancer subclass's Grim Harvest are not spells of the Necromancy school.

Just like, for example, most of the things that synergize best with the Diviner's Portent are not Divination spells.

[sayaijin]

Important note: Many of the most synergistic spells and tactics for the Necromancer subclass's Grim Harvest are not spells of the Necromancy school.



I absolutely agree, but if he wants the most out of grim harvest, then finding a way to power up necromancy spells would be good.

Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.

Maybe he can create a necromancy version of other spells - Death Ball instead of Fireball perhaps?

[LudicSavant]

I absolutely agree, but if he wants the most out of grim harvest, then finding a way to power up necromancy spells would be good.

Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.

Maybe he can create a necromancy version of other spells - Death Ball instead of Fireball perhaps?

Sure. But barring homebrew Death Balls...

Spells of the Necromancy school get a bit more hit points per proc from Grim Harvest, but other spells are often better at proccing it (both in that they can activate Grim Harvest many more times per round, and that they're better at killing things), as well as creating more total value when doing so.

As counterintuitive as it may seem, the way to get the most healing out of Grim Harvest is to not use Necromancy spells for your direct damage.

[Tammerin]

Thanks for the pointer on that non-necro spell thing! I had to double check the book because I overlooked that.
So, here's what this all really boils down to.
My party rolled stats.
I got 9, 9, 13, 15, 17, 17.

That's three stats right off the bat that make any character I make pretty open ended in where I want them. I was thinking of a melee mage character, but I'm thinking going Mountain Dwarf Necromancer might not work as best as I had thought.
As such, I'm thinking either abjurzard or Fiendlock might be best for this concept. I do like my spells. I don't want to go Eldritch knight.

The key thing I'm drawing from all of this is THP sounds glorious.

[da newt]

If your table allows, the gothic UA Dhampir can gain hp w/ a bite.

A half vampire necromancer could be fun (and spider climb is a great way to be hard to target).

https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_GothicLineages.pdf

[LudicSavant]

Thanks for the pointer on that non-necro spell thing! I had to double check the book because I overlooked that.
So, here's what this all really boils down to.
My party rolled stats.
I got 9, 9, 13, 15, 17, 17.

That's three stats right off the bat that make any character I make pretty open ended in where I want them. I was thinking of a melee mage character, but I'm thinking going Mountain Dwarf Necromancer might not work as best as I had thought.
As such, I'm thinking either abjurzard or Fiendlock might be best for this concept. I do like my spells. I don't want to go Eldritch knight.

The key thing I'm drawing from all of this is THP sounds glorious.

If you want to make yourself tanky (as opposed to a pure remote tanking style with undead), you're probably going to want to get a shield proficiency somehow (either that, or retributive spells like Armor of Agathys). The most common ways to do this for a Necromancer are via a multiclass dip (Cleric, Fighter, or Hexblade being the top contenders), or by being a Hobgoblin or Warding Dwarf.

Mountain Dwarf is a very good race (IF you have the Tasha's variant), but keep in mind that the difference in effective durability between Mage Armor and Medium Armor is low (while the difference between Mage Armor and Medium Armor + Shield isn't, because miss chance has increasing returns (https://i.postimg.cc/MTvcMjvC/Arcane-Trickster5save-HP.png). Note that that graph doesn't account for crit chance because how much it affects the curve is monster-specific, but the curve retains its general shape).

[sayaijin]

Thanks for the pointer on that non-necro spell thing! I had to double check the book because I overlooked that.
So, here's what this all really boils down to.
My party rolled stats.
I got 9, 9, 13, 15, 17, 17.

That's three stats right off the bat that make any character I make pretty open ended in where I want them. I was thinking of a melee mage character, but I'm thinking going Mountain Dwarf Necromancer might not work as best as I had thought.
As such, I'm thinking either abjurzard or Fiendlock might be best for this concept. I do like my spells. I don't want to go Eldritch knight.

The key thing I'm drawing from all of this is THP sounds glorious.

It is glorious!

I think Fiendlock is what you want. If you go custom lineage, you can start with a 20 in charisma (+2 Cha and feat like fey touched or shadow touched).

Then, every time you kill a "hostile creature", you gain 6 THP at level one and that just increases with warlock level. Fiendlock doesn't give you armor proficiencies, so you should either switch to a race that gives you those (and then start with a 19 in Cha) or multiclass for them.

[noob]

I absolutely agree, but if he wants the most out of grim harvest, then finding a way to power up necromancy spells would be good.

Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.

Maybe he can create a necromancy version of other spells - Death Ball instead of Fireball perhaps?

So if you are using an spell that makes a weapon you can swing then you can go fighter and become really good at killing a lot of opponents with that weapon and be the death knight the thread creator wanted to be?

[sayaijin]

So if you are using an spell that makes a weapon you can swing then you can go fighter and become really good at killing a lot of opponents with that weapon and be the death knight the thread creator wanted to be?

Oh yeah! If OP is willing to multiclass (he originally said he wasn't), then Eldritch Knight / Necromancer would probably fit his idea best. Then you just use shadow blade in every fight with multi attack, and gain HP every time you kill someone.


EDIT: Apparently this doesn't work. Grim harvest and shadow blade don't work together.

[MaxWilson]

If you're interested specifically in Grim Harvest, and you play with Tasha's, ask your DM how Spirit Shroud (Necromancy spell that adds damage to each attack for 1 hour, concentration) interacts with Grim Harvest. Does killing a target with e.g. Eldritch Blast + Spirit Shroud III restore 9 HP to you or zero?