Subway to Sally

[Ceska]

Since the discussion came up with Winterwind and I said I'd make a thread about it, here it is.

Subway to Sally is a German Medieval Rock/Folk Metal band. They developed from more Punk like roots into one of the main Medieval Rock bands in Germany with the style reaching its peak with their fourth album Bannkreis.

They then got clearly harder with more Metal influence with their next album Hochzeit, which is the first that uses only typical rock instruments in some songs (das Opfer and... Henkersbraut I think), but staying with the lyrics in the medieval era for most of the time, or very distinctively bordering it.

From Engelskrieger on they developed more personal or modern lyrics, became less of storytellers and got into the current style they are in.

The band uses more unusual instruments like lute, different kinds of flutes, mandoline and mandola, shawm, hurdy gurdy, bagpipes (more in older songs), windcontroller (in their newer albums), violine and viola. Most of them are not used in the same songs however, and since Hochzeit the electrical guitar is more distinctive and clearly in the foreground.

Their newest album, Bastard, which is their ninth studio album, came out on 27th of October this year. It's from the style very close to the previous work, Nord Nord Ost, while incorporating a bit of the older style.

I guess I'll just give a few examples from the different albums for those who do not know them.

Since I only own all albums from Foppt den Dämon on I'll only give representations in forms of youtube links of those. Those who know the band and think another song would represent the album better, please say so.

MCMXCV - Grabrede (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE9lUypffYc) or Die Jagd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtyvj1mvi8) proposed by smeik. I don't know how well they represent the album (though I'll take smeik's word on it), but they are both very good songs, especially Grabrede.

Foppt dem Dämon - Sag dem Teufel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzJfZW8hYYo). It was their first single AFAIK and while I think there would be better representations of the album's sound, I'm not completely sure which, I'm thinking Ratten, Hofnarr, Kain or Julia und die Räuber?

Bannkreis - Ein Baum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2EzhkZv1us), I think it has the right amount of heavy and softer tones that the album blends together. Mephisto and Rätsel would be too hard, others are ballads mostly. Maybe Unterm Galgen would work as well.

Hochzeit - Tag der Rache (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xjn3lqxHpw). Again the blend between heavy instruments and the classic barock-like instruments. The album has a bit of an oriental touch with Böses Erwachen, and I'd wanted to go with Ohne Liebe, but I can't find a studio version of the song.

Herzblut - Wenn Engel Hassen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prp5t0OJNE8). The album is filled with ballads, the other songs are by far not as heavy as Hochzeit's or the following Engelskrieger. Wenn Engel hassen is a quite good representation in that it is one of the harder ballads of the album.

Engelskrieger - 2000 Meilen unterm Meer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHMxmxPb4UU). Yes I know it's a political song, but that is one of the least creepy of the album. It's also right in the middle in terms of hard/soft.

Nord Nord Ost - Feuerland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iltbe2lgMVw). Don't mind the video please. It's one of the harder songs of the album and I couldn't find a studio version of Schneekönigin, which would represent it best I think.

Bastard - Puppenspieler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb7HWDwb1iE). Fits the album quite well IMHO, I have yet to hear it enough to say if there would be a better one. It's also not as creepy as my second choice Voodoo.

I tried to stick with studio albums of the songs, which meant I had to use some AMVs, unfortunately. I hope you can understand that.

-------------------------------------

Now I only have to wait for Winterwind.

[Winterwind]

And you don't have to wait for too long. :smallsmile:
Well, except for the time it took me to formulate and type this. :smallbiggrin:

Well, let's see. I heard them first when a friend told me they were going on a concert of some band (them), and asked me whether I'd like to tag along. That was about the time when Hochzeit was just out.
The show was incredible. Not only the (quite medieval, somehow) atmosphere, and also not only the music (which was excellent), no, the show itself it was great. They did all kinds of stuff between and during the songs; I distinctly remember that, at the end of some song involving an executioner (I'm not sure which one, though, I didn't know their songs back then after all) they took a huge teddy bear, put him on a wooden block, then pulled out a massive executioner axe out of somewhere, beheaded it and threw the fluff into the crowd. And lots of stuff like that. I even have some bit of that fluff lying around somewhere.

Incidentally, my first contact with their music was also just about the best one - Hochzeit is an excellent balance between medieval and rock/metal (I hesitate to call them metal... that so very much gives the wrong impression of the band). The earlier albums, while undeniably still very good, are much more purely medieval, which makes for a much less interesting style. At least, according to my tastes.

The two following albums are very fine musically, but lyrically, they get progressively disturbing. I know what most of them are supposed to be about, and I quite often agree that the message the songs are trying to convey is true and/or important - ranging from criticizing politics over pointing out the horror of specific crimes to euthanasia or the mindset of a cutter - but they frankly creep me out to a degree where it diminuishes my enjoyment of the music. Still, excellent albums.

Now, Nord Nord Ost. That's the real point how we got into a discussion to begin with, right?
I'll restate, then, that I personally consider NNO to be Subway To Sally's best album yet, by far, and respond to your post from the other thread here:

Huh? What exactly is so great about it? I mean, I grant you Feuerland, 74, Feuerkind and Seemannslied as excellent songs with Schneekönigin and Rätsel II being quite good, but apart from that I just skip the songs completely. It's even worse than Foppt den Dämon, where I skip Sag dem Teufel, Julia und die Räuber (works well live though, just like Rätsel II) and Auf der Reise.Well, to begin with, the songs you mention in the first part - especially, Feuerkind and Seemannslied - together with a song you did not mention, yet which I find does belong onto that list, namely Eisblumen, are even more than excellent in my humble opinion. They are moving. They are incredibly poetic and conjure images of transcendent beauty. And all of them speak, like basically the entire album, of an emotion I find very close to my heart: Yearning. It's diverse - Yearning for love, yearning for a home, yearning for distant lands, yearning for help and security, but it's always about wishes and hope, sadness if they remained unfulfilled, and ecstasy if they are.

As for the rest of the album, all of the songs are fairly diverse, they bear a vitality and power which was absent from the melancholic previous albums, especially the choruses are, again and again, a burst of energy, which I find quite stirring. When listening to these songs, I find I often start to sing along inadvertantly - something I rarely did in the case of the previous two albums.
Yes, some of them are less outstanding than the others (personally, I find Das Rätsel II and Sieben to be somewhat weaker than the rest, although these are both obviously meant to be played life - and they are incredible if heard that way, I can testify that), but even these are still very good songs.

Phew. Okay, that's probably just about the best reasoning I can offer. I should maybe stress that, while I always liked Subway To Sally quite a bit, I never considered them to be exactly my favourite band. They were maybe somewhere at the end of the Top 10. Nord Nord Ost? Probably in my Top 5 favourite albums, next to King Crimson's Court of the Crimson King, Pink Floyd's The Wall, Blind Guardian's Imaginations from the Other Side or In Flames' Reroute To Remain. This should signify how very much I prefer this album to their others.

I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to convince you here, I'm just stating my own opinions about the albums. We can debate about the reasons why we like or dislike them (and I would be quite interested in doing so), but I know that matters of taste are ultimately not something where one can (or should strive to) convince others, nor where one can be right or wrong.

As for Bastard, like I said, haven't had a chance to hear it yet. I plan to amend this condition shortly, though. :smallwink:

[Jibar]

For some strange and abstract reason, I have heard of these guys.
And I can't remember how...
Damn you two, I'm going to thinking about this all day now instead of working. :smalltongue:

[Ceska]

First let me say that the story is great. The song you mentioned was Henkersbraut.

Now let's go into your response a bit.

The two following albums are very fine musically, but lyrically, they get progressively disturbing.
Indeed I think lyrically the band was considerably weaker in those two albums. But then, I think Hochzeit or Bannkreis were the prime of the band, with both having the best lyrics.

I know what most of them are supposed to be about, and I quite often agree that the message the songs are trying to convey is true and/or important - ranging from criticizing politics over pointing out the horror of specific crimes to euthanasia or the mindset of a cutter - but they frankly creep me out to a degree where it diminuishes my enjoyment of the music. Still, excellent albums.
You are touching upon a very important theme here. Indeed you have to be in the right mood to hear them. Especially the Engelskrieger album is, while staying excellent, a pain to listen to lyrically. Not because it is bad, but because it touches only stern themes hard to enjoy listening about. It also starts creepy aggressive and ends melancholic, never even bothering to go into at least one song that is not in some kind hard to get yourself to listen to, although one could give them Falscher Heiland, but that's extremely political.

However, I don't get this feeling from Herzblut. While there is one extremely painful (in a creepy and serious way) song, "Wenn Engel hassen", the rest of them don't give me this feeling. Yes, Kleid aus Rosen is on it twice, once acoustic and once in some strange version, and it is very creepy as well, but the rest of the album seems not like this to me. Especially noted should be "die Schlacht" and "Veitstanz" as counter argument I think.


Now, Nord Nord Ost. That's the real point how we got into a discussion to begin with, right?
Yes.

Well, to begin with, the songs you mention in the first part - especially, Feuerkind and Seemannslied - together with a song you did not mention, yet which I find does belong onto that list, namely Eisblumen, are even more than excellent in my humble opinion.
Those two you first mention are indeed two of the best ballads they ever wrote. However, Eisblumen does not touch me in the least. I know that it can be great for a feeling of community especially in live songs, but as that it goes into the range of songs I would not listen to on an album. Further the line "sie sollen in die Kniehe gehn und beten das der Mond verhangen bleibt" (excuse me if I misquoted here, I did it from memory) is creepy and feels a bit like Geist des Kriegers without the aggressive energy. That's what weakens it in my eyes.


They are moving. They are incredibly poetic and conjure images of transcendent beauty. And all of them speak, like basically the entire album, of an emotion I find very close to my heart: Yearning. It's diverse - Yearning for love, yearning for a home, yearning for distant lands, yearning for help and security, but it's always about wishes and hope, sadness if they remained unfulfilled, and ecstasy if they are.
While I do understand your point here, I have a different feel for the album. Nord Nord Ost was the first Subway to Sally album I ever bought, a few months after I had first listened to them at a friends place.

One thing I always had troubles with was the instrumentation of the album in comparison to older albums. Of course I did only get this feeling in hindsight, but something always felt wrong. Some songs are just too long, like SOS, the text is too "märchenhaft" (I really can't find an English word that would give away my feeling better than this), so fairy tale like, as Schneekönigin is to me, which is a great song with mediocre lyrics. Sarabande de Noir lacks as beginning of the album everything. If the album would start with Schneekönigin the whole album would feel stronger. The song could work for live shows of a "Weihnachtstournee", but other than that it's just annoying.

Now I got into their older albums, mainly Bannkreis and Hochzeit, and they simply moved me more. They told stories of far away places, of older times and the critique on different aspects was more of a subtle nature. Songs like Kruzifix can be taken as critique on the Church today, or just the church in medieval times, the same goes for Böses Erwachen. And I wouldn't need to skip that many songs. In Hochzeit it is only one, das Opfer, and in Bannkreis none at all, although I do sometimes skip Alle psalite *** luya and Sanctus.

Another thing that always annoyed me with Nord Nord Ost is the use of instruments in it. They lost the old distinctive feel they had with Bannkreis especially. For example in Mephisto, the guitars play a melody, then the violine responds, then the guitar reacts and they play it together before going into the first verse. NNO simply lacks such things. Another one thing that I first realised when listening to it with my cousin, who wants to play drums but currently can't since he lives in an appartment in Vienna, is that the drums are simply weaker. Compare any song of NNO to Unterm Galgen for that matter and you'll see what I mean. They're repetitive and bland IMHO.


Then listening to these songs, I find I often start to sing along inadvertantly - something I rarely did in the case of the previous two albums.
Yes, some of them are less outstanding than the others (personally, I find Das Rätsel II and Sieben to be somewhat weaker than the rest, although these are both obviously meant to be played life - and they are incredible if heard that way, I can testify that), but even these are still very good songs.
Indeed Sieben is awfully poppy and Rätsel II was awful until I listened to it in "Nackt". There it worked very well. While I see what you mean, it is indeed a step in the right direction, but can not compare to Hochzeit or Bannkreis for that matter (I'm repeating that quite often, right?, must be because they're my top two albums). I simply never get to the ecstasy I get in the whole Rose im Wasser - Henkersbraut - Sabbat - Minne of Hochzeit. I'm never as moved as in Rose im Wasser, never in such an ecstasy from music flowing through my veins like Sabbat when played with enough bass. And while I could nearly every song of it, I never had the want to simply recite the whole album in one go like I got it from Bannkreis, where I even can speak the two Latin ones.


In Flames' Reroute To Remain.
Nothing against you as a person, I think you are a great guy, but my respect for you just got a huge blow. :smalltongue:

IMHO:
Whoracle - Jester Race - Clayman ---------------------------Come Clarity ----- the rest never existed.

I haven't got around listening to Colony though, I think I might like it.




I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to convince you here, I'm just stating my own opinions about the albums. We can debate about the reasons why we like or dislike them (and I would be quite interested in doing so), but I know that matters of taste are ultimately not something where one can (or should strive to) convince others, nor where one can be right or wrong.

As for Bastard, like I said, haven't had a chance to hear it yet. I plan to amend this condition shortly, though. :smallwink:
And neither I am trying to convince you. I just like discussing such matters and while I don't agree with you I understand your stance now a bit better. Thanks.

I would enjoy discussing the other albums with you for that matter. Though I must warn you, I only own Foppt den Dämon, Bannkreis, Hochzeit, Herzblut, Engelskrieger, Nord Nord Ost, Bastard, Nackt and Schrei!. I can't discuss the earlier once, I couldn't get my hand on them yet.

And you definitely should look into Bastard. While it is quite creepy in some occasions it definitely is NNO's descendant musically wise while blending in some of their older style.

[Winterwind]

First let me say that the story is great. The song you mentioned was Henkersbraut.Actually, I believe it was Unterm Galgen instead, but I have no way to find out for sure.


Indeed I think lyrically the band was considerably weaker in those two albums. But then, I think Hochzeit or Bannkreis were the prime of the band, with both having the best lyrics.Agreed, although I must - as you can imagine by now - make an exception for NNO.


You are touching upon a very important theme here. Indeed you have to be in the right mood to hear them. Especially the Engelskrieger album is, while staying excellent, a pain to listen to lyrically. Not because it is bad, but because it touches only stern themes hard to enjoy listening about. It also starts creepy aggressive and ends melancholic, never even bothering to go into at least one song that is not in some kind hard to get yourself to listen to, although one could give them Falscher Heiland, but that's extremely political.In fact, there is only one song on that album which I really enjoy, and that is Abendland. And that's only because I choose to interprete the song in a completely different way than it is actually meant, as warning from an impending apocalypse, rather than a criticism of... frankly, I'm not quite sure what, religion, the powers that be or the current state of the world (which I do because I rather enjoy the postapocalyptic genre, for which that song can work perfectly as mood-maker, if listened in an according way). But I digress.
As for Falscher Heiland - that seems so hateful towards--- well, I guess we know whom - that even though I strongly dislike that person and his policies I still found it way over the top.
Your analysis of the album is excellent, precisely what I think about it as well.


However, I don't get this feeling from Herzblut. While there is one extremely painful (in a creepy and serious way) song, "Wenn Engel hassen", the rest of them don't give me this feeling. Yes, Kleid aus Rosen is on it twice, once acoustic and once in some strange version, and it is very creepy as well, but the rest of the album seems not like this to me. Especially noted should be "die Schlacht" and "Veitstanz" as counter argument I think.Yes, you're right; I kinda became guilty of oversimplification there. Herzblut is not nearly as creepy as Engelskrieger (and, frankly, no Subway to Sally lyrics can be considered to be very light), but I felt it sowed the seed of which Engelskrieger was the harvest, which is why I put them together in my previous post. My bad.
In fact, Herzblut is, while not quite on par with Hochzeit, it is actually quite similar to it in style. I always figured a reason why I like it less than Hochzeit might be that I heard the songs from the latter life first, and in an awesome way to boot, and might therefore have much more favorable associations with them.


Those two you first mention are indeed two of the best ballads they ever wrote. However, Eisblumen does not touch me in the least. I know that it can be great for a feeling of community especially in live songs, but as that it goes into the range of songs I would not listen to on an album. Further the line "sie sollen in die Kniehe gehn und beten das der Mond verhangen bleibt" (excuse me if I misquoted here, I did it from memory) is creepy and feels a bit like Geist des Kriegers without the aggressive energy. That's what weakens it in my eyes.You got that quote 100% right. I interprete that line more in the sense that the beauty they are singing of is too beautiful to behold, though. That way, it is frightening, but in a good way - awe inspiring instead of creepy. But that's, of course, just my interpretation.
And that's basically what I think of when I hear Eisblumen. Beauty words cannot express.


One thing I always had troubles with was the instrumentation of the album in comparison to older albums. Of course I did only get this feeling in hindsight, but something always felt wrong. Some songs are just too long, like SOS,I admit this particular song is indeed a bit longer than necessary.


the text is too "märchenhaft" (I really can't find an English word that would give away my feeling better than this), so fairy tale like, as Schneekönigin is to me, which is a great song with mediocre lyrics. It is fairytale-like, definitely. Personally, I consider this to be rather an advantage - it fits well with the yearning-theme I mentioned before. But I suppose here we venture completely on taste-territory.


Sarabande de Noir lacks as beginning of the album everything. If the album would start with Schneekönigin the whole album would feel stronger. The song could work for live shows of a "Weihnachtstournee", but other than that it's just annoying.Probably taste or interpretation/different perception again, here I find it sets the mood for the forthcoming album quite well, with its community theme ("Fassen die Hände zum inneren Kreis...") and its ice-and-fire-theme ("...singen von Feuer und ewigem Eis").


Now I got into their older albums, mainly Bannkreis and Hochzeit, and they simply moved me more. They told stories of far away places, of older times and the critique on different aspects was more of a subtle nature. Songs like Kruzifix can be taken as critique on the Church today, or just the church in medieval times, the same goes for Böses Erwachen. And I wouldn't need to skip that many songs. In Hochzeit it is only one, das Opfer, and in Bannkreis none at all, although I do sometimes skip Alle psalite *** luya and Sanctus.I don't share your impressions, but I can perfectly well understand how you arrive at those. NNO is much more fantasy-like, not as dark and not as criticising.


Another thing that always annoyed me with Nord Nord Ost is the use of instruments in it. They lost the old distinctive feel they had with Bannkreis especially. For example in Mephisto, the guitars play a melody, then the violine responds, then the guitar reacts and they play it together before going into the first verse. NNO simply lacks such things. Another one thing that I first realised when listening to it with my cousin, who wants to play drums but currently can't since he lives in an appartment in Vienna, is that the drums are simply weaker. Compare any song of NNO to Unterm Galgen for that matter and you'll see what I mean. They're repetitive and bland IMHO.On the other hand, I feel the vocals became much more impressive - both when Eric sings alone and when there is a chorus. The main problem though, I suppose, is that I'm not exactly the most musical person out there (not completely non-musical, either, but I usually focus much more on the vocals, for instance, than the rest of the music, and I am prone to not noticing such things as that thing with the guitars and the violine you describe). Still, compared to the melancholic and gloomy instrumentalisation of Engelskrieger, Nord Nord Ost almost feels symphonic, and I like that.


Indeed Sieben is awfully poppy and Rätsel II was awful until I listened to it in "Nackt". There it worked very well. While I see what you mean, it is indeed a step in the right direction, but can not compare to Hochzeit or Bannkreis for that matter (I'm repeating that quite often, right?, must be because they're my top two albums). I simply never get to the ecstasy I get in the whole Rose im Wasser - Henkersbraut - Sabbat - Minne of Hochzeit. I'm never as moved as in Rose im Wasser, never in such an ecstasy from music flowing through my veins like Sabbat when played with enough bass. And while I could nearly every song of it, I never had the want to simply recite the whole album in one go like I got it from Bannkreis, where I even can speak the two Latin ones.They are very different (NNO and Hochzeit/Bannkreis, I mean). I fully understand how one might prefer one style over the other; depending on mood, I might actually prefer Hochzeit or Bannkreis over NNO as well. I just seem to be in a mood where it's the other way round much more often.


Nothing against you as a person, I think you are a great guy, but my respect for you just got a huge blow. :smalltongue:

IMHO:
Whoracle - Jester Race - Clayman ---------------------------Come Clarity ----- the rest never existed.

I haven't got around listening to Colony though, I think I might like it.Heh. Sorry, but I will stand by my opinions here. :smallbiggrin:
I haven't heard either Colony nor Whoracle yet. As for Jester Race, it has a couple of very good songs and Moonshield is simply astonishing, but there is also a good number of songs which I can have playing in the background and then, suddenly, I realise that three songs have passed and I didn't notice - which would not happen with truly great songs. Oh yeah - Gyroscope is pretty funny for me, because its lyrics sound as if they would actually describe the world of DeGenesis, my favourite RPG. I know that's impossible (since the album is way older), but in that case, I'm at a loss to explain what the heck they are singing about then! (I was told that there were even more songs like that on Whoracle; I looked into the lyrics, and I agree)
Clayman was my first In Flames album. It is pure excellence.
Comes Clarity is even better, but it had one huge drawback: I had listened to Reroute To Remain previously, and hence my expectations were way too high. You see, I love that album. I think I could listen to the refrain of Trigger all day long, and I wouldn't get bored by it.
I see that you disagree; the trouble is, unlike with Subway To Sally, I can't even truly explain why I like it so much. I find the lyrics conjure an interesting imaginery, the combination of different vocal styles is perfect, the melodies are just right... but I can't tell what makes them so.
Interestingly, I didn't like it when I listened to it the first time though. Not at all. Only while I listened to it the second or third time I suddenly looked up and thought, "Damn, this is pure genius!". On the other hand, with Blind Guardian albums, I usually need even longer, and I liked every single one of them so far.

(I should add that I usually don't even like Death Metal. I'm making a huge exception for In Flames, because they are Awesome. No, scratch that; actually, they are AWESOME. :smallwink: )


And neither I am trying to convince you. I just like discussing such matters and while I don't agree with you I understand your stance now a bit better. Thanks. Same. :smallsmile:


I would enjoy discussing the other albums with you for that matter. Though I must warn you, I only own Foppt den Dämon, Bannkreis, Hochzeit, Herzblut, Engelskrieger, Nord Nord Ost, Bastard, Nackt and Schrei!. I can't discuss the earlier once, I couldn't get my hand on them yet.My own selection is even worse. But a good friend of mine loves that band, and puts them on so often when we are roleplaying that by now, I know even the albums I don't possess (yet!) rather well.


And you definitely should look into Bastard. While it is quite creepy in some occasions it definitely is NNO's descendant musically wise while blending in some of their older style.Oh, I definitely will. :smallsmile:
Even though the aforementioned friend of mine was not quite as pleased with that album. I'm not sure whether this is a good or a bad thing for me; she comes to Subway To Sally from the medieval side of their music, I reach the band via its metal side.

[Ceska]

Actually, I believe it was Unterm Galgen instead, but I have no way to find out for sure.
Too bad. And that's an awesome song.


In fact, there is only one song on that album which I really enjoy, and that is Abendland. And that's only because I choose to interprete the song in a completely different way than it is actually meant, as warning from an impending apocalypse, rather than a criticism of... frankly, I'm not quite sure what, religion, the powers that be or the current state of the world (which I do because I rather enjoy the postapocalyptic genre, for which that song can work perfectly as mood-maker, if listened in an according way). But I digress.
In fact that is the mood I draw from it as well. It has more of an apocalyptic than a personal theme to me. It's classic story-telling in the style they used before. In that it is one of the strongest songs of the album, although you need the exact, perfect mood for it.


As for Falscher Heiland - that seems so hateful towards--- well, I guess we know whom - that even though I strongly dislike that person and his policies I still found it way over the top.
Frankly I've never seen it that way. It hit exactly in a more anarchistic phase of mine and as that I saw it as response to any authority and authoritarian system. I see what you mean, but my feeling is that it is lyric-wise strong, and back to the roots nearly, that it carries more of a stance towards any authority in the background. Besides, the bass in the beginning is quite cool.


Your analysis of the album is excellent, precisely what I think about it as well.
Thanks. :smallbiggrin:


Yes, you're right; I kinda became guilty of oversimplification there. Herzblut is not nearly as creepy as Engelskrieger (and, frankly, no Subway to Sally lyrics can be considered to be very light), but I felt it sowed the seed of which Engelskrieger was the harvest, which is why I put them together in my previous post. My bad.
Indeed one could see some of them as sowing the seed, but not all. Herrin des Feuers for example is a wonderful ballad that is more in the style of earlier ballads as well as carrying over to the NNO ones. I think Feuerkind is in that case like Engelskrieger is to Wenn Engel hassen, it descends from Herrin des Feuers (and others). The slow pace of it in the beginning, the use of the electrical guitar only very late in the song and the use of the lute and percussions are very close to it.


In fact, Herzblut is, while not quite on par with Hochzeit, it is actually quite similar to it in style. I always figured a reason why I like it less than Hochzeit might be that I heard the songs from the latter life first, and in an awesome way to boot, and might therefore have much more favorable associations with them.
I can understand your stance on it, though I think it's not all that similar. One of the differences is that it is very light-hearted in its faster paced songs while heavy-hearted in its ballads. While the part with the ballads is the same in Hochzeit, the heavier songs are by far more apocalyptic, dark and strong.

In that Hochzeit is more similar to Engelskrieger, although in a completely different way. Engelskrieger is violent, dark and creepy. But the dark part is a dark grey whereas the dark part in Hochzeit is a dark red, the dark clouds of impending doom combined with the red of blood.


You got that quote 100% right. I interprete that line more in the sense that the beauty they are singing of is too beautiful to behold, though. That way, it is frightening, but in a good way - awe inspiring instead of creepy. But that's, of course, just my interpretation.
You see, I've never even thought of it that way. To me it always felt like Geist des Kriegers in that sentence.


It is fairytale-like, definitely. Personally, I consider this to be rather an advantage - it fits well with the yearning-theme I mentioned before. But I suppose here we venture completely on taste-territory.
I guess so. I liked the darker medieval songs more than the sexual innuendo combined with fairytale. Well, they had sexual innuendo before (*cough*Maria*cough*) but it always was somehow... different. Songs like Maria have a certain yearning, even a bit erotic in them, whereas Schneekönigin sounds too... forced (as in "I don't want it but have to") and cold in itself. It also is more symphonic to me, thus looses the honest to heart feeling songs from the early albums had.


I don't share your impressions, but I can perfectly well understand how you arrive at those. NNO is much more fantasy-like, not as dark and not as criticising.
However, to me they always had a fantasy feel. The early albums have that of a dark medieval age and while close to reality still being nothing but dark fantasy. Hochzeit carries this feeling the best from them all to me.

NNO is strong in one point. It creates pictures, just like they did before Engelskrieger. First you are thrown into the cold northlands just to have your flesh burned in the next second. I'd also say the connection from Schneekönigin to Feuerland is one of the highlights of the album (though you need to listen to it loud enough), it feels a bit like a zoom in this. The whole feeling of emotional heat in dark and cold surrounding is carried quite well, but as I said, if you started with Schneekönigin, went straight into 74 from there and ended with Seemannslied after Feuerkind it would be far stronger, albeit very short (~23 minutes I think).


On the other hand, I feel the vocals became much more impressive - both when Eric sings alone and when there is a chorus. The main problem though, I suppose, is that I'm not exactly the most musical person out there (not completely non-musical, either, but I usually focus much more on the vocals, for instance, than the rest of the music, and I am prone to not noticing such things as that thing with the guitars and the violine you describe). Still, compared to the melancholic and gloomy instrumentalisation of Engelskrieger, Nord Nord Ost almost feels symphonic, and I like that.
Indeed it feels very symphonic and I agree that Eric's voice got a lot better, but compared to earlier albums it somehow lacks the honest-to-heart attitude. Compare for example a clearly symphonic ballad Feuerkind (just take the part after "bis ich einst ein Streichholz fand", *quoting from memory*, which is very well done but just completely thought through) to a ballad like Maria, where you realise Ingo isn't all that great with the guitar but gets a great sound of it and Eric's vocals, while far from trained, transport the longing, the feeling, better than they could ever later on. (I know of the religious part of the song I am just ignoring it. :smallwink: )

Or take the live version of Ohne Liebe in Schrei!. Here you can hear that it was cold and thus the flute is completely out of tone. And yet Eric continues to play it like nothing was wrong, carries this wonderful melody and although the sound is painful, it is so beautiful it starts to hurt.

And before I forget it, it's unfair to compare NNO to Engelskrieger, the one album you skip 95% of the time when you listen to their albums straight through and that hits perfectly the other 5%. :smallwink:


*Talk about In Flames I don't want to quote directly, I did read it*
While I can see what you mean about Jester Race, those songs that stick out are excellent. I was thrilled the first time I listened to them, how could something called Melodic Death Metal be so downright beautiful? Songs like Moonshield, the Jester's Dance, Jester Race and Wayfaerer are simply beautiful and I got the hang of some others (like Lord Hypnos, which is actually damn catchy) after some time.

Still Whoracle is better by a lot. Gyroscope is a Whoracle song by the way, it simply is on the extra edition of Jester Race. Still the overall quality only comes to you after many listening sessions.

But I enjoy Melodic Death Metal a lot, currently I like Arch Enemy best (besides, Angela is hot!), and the albums before their style change simply had the feeling of Melodeath in them, combined with a story told. Both are concept albums, and while I like some songs of newer albums, those two are strong as albums just because of that.


Oh, I definitely will. :smallsmile:
Even though the aforementioned friend of mine was not quite as pleased with that album. I'm not sure whether this is a good or a bad thing for me; she comes to Subway To Sally from the medieval side of their music, I reach the band via its metal side.
Oh, I understand it. It feels just like a bastard between the three phases of them, the medieval phase, the creepy phase and the NNO phase. In that it sometimes does create a good mix, sometimes doesn't. Youtube has quite some of those songs. Prepare to be disturbed! *talks about Voodoo in the last sentence*

How is my list by the way? I tried to use one of the songs that clearly catch the album's feels, but it isn't always that easy.


For some strange and abstract reason, I have heard of these guys.
And I can't remember how...
Damn you two, I'm going to thinking about this all day now instead of working. :smalltongue:
You should listen to them instead. :smalltongue:

@below this post: I will look into a better reply later, I'll just say that I while do know most of these songs, I simply couldn't get my hands on the albums before Foppt den Dämon. I might get into Amazon for it though.

I know the roots were there before Hochzeit, but it somehow shows the course of direction for the coming albums better than 1995 (MCMXCV). Grabrede is great in Schrei!.

[Smeik]

Hey great, Subway to Sally, mind if I join into the discussion? ;)

Let's see... I think I have a bit of a different viewpoint on their albums.

For myself, I consider "Herzblut", "Engelskrieger" (sic!) and "MCMXCV" (though I know i shouldn't talk about it as nobody else seems to possess it anymore;-)) their best albums.

"Herzblut" because the sound of it is just beautyful. I consider it the peak of their musical profession as it already had more metal and electric sounds than most of their previous albums but still preserved the medieval feeling in it. I especially liked the major theme of (loosing) control on this album and the beauty of the ballads on this album especially "Kleid aus Rosen", "Herrin des Feuers" and "so rot".

"Engelskrieger" is indeed the creepiest album they ever produced, but as they always criticize with which they want to creep out (sometimes in detailing it into the goriest detail) and i like the aggressive/melancholic and thinking mood the album sets one in if you listen to it. Yes, i know what they are singing about in each song as me and my mother studied the lyrics quite intensively, arguing over different intepretations of them.:smallwink:
It is their most "realistically" and "modern" album, as songs like Unsterblich (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0Z8rwiNPw) and 2000 Meilen unter dem Meer touch themes absolutely inappropirate for any medieval setting. And though I could not listen it everywhere and every time, i still consider it to be one of their best.
Although I always have to skip "Narben" as that song just creeps even me out too much.

And "MCMXCV" is one of their best albums IMHO as all their themes already became laid out in this album. It is also very critical against society (especially war and greed) and also a quite sinister album, but with much more medieval touch than their new album. And if you thought they only had developed the metal influences since "Hochzeit", you are wrong. They only went back to the roots of the "MCMXCV" album. If you listen to songs like "Die Hexe", "Krähenfrass" and "Grabrede" you notice that they already had them back there.
I would recommend you to include this album in your collection.
For a few songs from it:
Die Jagd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtyvj1mvi8)

and: Grabrede (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE9lUypffYc) (please, don't comment the video. Yes it is absolutely low quality and yes, it is officially theirs. But hey, they didn't have any budget back then :smallwink: And the song is still good.)

Please ignore my lousy english and sentence structures, at least I tried.

greetings,

Smeik

[Winterwind]

Too bad. And that's an awesome song.Yes. Yes, it is. :smallsmile:


In fact that is the mood I draw from it as well. It has more of an apocalyptic than a personal theme to me. It's classic story-telling in the style they used before. In that it is one of the strongest songs of the album, although you need the exact, perfect mood for it.Agreed.
Huh, maybe this interpretation is not so far off after all, if two people arrive at it independantly. :smallbiggrin:


Frankly I've never seen it that way. It hit exactly in a more anarchistic phase of mine and as that I saw it as response to any authority and authoritarian system. I see what you mean, but my feeling is that it is lyric-wise strong, and back to the roots nearly, that it carries more of a stance towards any authority in the background. Besides, the bass in the beginning is quite cool.It is, and the whole song is one of those I like best from that album musically.
I strongly suspect I would have liked Engelskrieger a lot better if I had not stumbled upon a list of what the band meant by which of the Engelskrieger songs just prior to hearing the album for the first time. That way, I could not forget what they were singing about whenever I heard these songs.
Just listened to Engelskrieger again. I find I can distance myself from these songs supposed content much better and interprete them in any way I want to much better now. That greatly improves the album in my eyes.


Indeed one could see some of them as sowing the seed, but not all. Herrin des Feuers for example is a wonderful ballad that is more in the style of earlier ballads as well as carrying over to the NNO ones. I think Feuerkind is in that case like Engelskrieger is to Wenn Engel hassen, it descends from Herrin des Feuers (and others). The slow pace of it in the beginning, the use of the electrical guitar only very late in the song and the use of the lute and percussions are very close to it.No, indeed, not all. I probably should go and listen to Herzblut once again, it's been a while since I did it the last time. And yes, there are songs of exceeding beauty on that album.


I can understand your stance on it, though I think it's not all that similar. One of the differences is that it is very light-hearted in its faster paced songs while heavy-hearted in its ballads. While the part with the ballads is the same in Hochzeit, the heavier songs are by far more apocalyptic, dark and strong. That's true, and likely the reason why I lumped it together with Engelskrieger initially, which is dark from the beginning to the very end.


In that Hochzeit is more similar to Engelskrieger, although in a completely different way. Engelskrieger is violent, dark and creepy. But the dark part is a dark grey whereas the dark part in Hochzeit is a dark red, the dark clouds of impending doom combined with the red of blood.Interesting imagery, but I understand exactly what you are trying to express with it. :smallbiggrin:
I'm not sure whether I agree, though. You don't get much redder than Narben, Unsterblich or Knochenschiff.
Rather, I would say that Hochzeit has more vitality than Engelskrieger. Hochzeit seems to be about "living in spite of (and even in the face of death)", compared to the "dying because of (and even while remaining alive)" of Engelskrieger, if this makes sense.


You see, I've never even thought of it that way. To me it always felt like Geist des Kriegers in that sentence.Perfectly valid interpretation. Frankly, I never completely understood what this song might be about; I just went with the associations and images the song conjures up in my mind.


I guess so. I liked the darker medieval songs more than the sexual innuendo combined with fairytale. Well, they had sexual innuendo before (*cough*Maria*cough*) but it always was somehow... different. Songs like Maria have a certain yearning, even a bit erotic in them, whereas Schneekönigin sounds too... forced (as in "I don't want it but have to") and cold in itself. It also is more symphonic to me, thus looses the honest to heart feeling songs from the early albums had.That's true, I noticed it myself as well. It has gone away from the simplicity and, as you say, honest to heart feeling of the former albums. Although I have heard Eric sing Feuerkind on a solo concert of his, and it was one of the most straight-out-of-the-artist's heart songs I have ever heard. Otherwise, yes, I agree, though I find it a fair tradeoff for a sound more suited to my personal tastes; I can see how it would be very displeasing for someone who felt otherwise though. As for the sexual innuendo, I found it was much more subtle than on their former albums (Maria is by far not the only example; Hochzeit had an entire bunch of songs which went beyond innuendo and became explicit - need I say Ohne Liebe?), which I found preferable - it seemed less like lust and more like love that way.


However, to me they always had a fantasy feel. The early albums have that of a dark medieval age and while close to reality still being nothing but dark fantasy. Hochzeit carries this feeling the best from them all to me. This it does, without any doubt; I felt the same way.


NNO is strong in one point. It creates pictures, just like they did before Engelskrieger. First you are thrown into the cold northlands just to have your flesh burned in the next second. I'd also say the connection from Schneekönigin to Feuerland is one of the highlights of the album (though you need to listen to it loud enough), it feels a bit like a zoom in this. The whole feeling of emotional heat in dark and cold surrounding is carried quite well, but as I said, if you started with Schneekönigin, went straight into 74 from there and ended with Seemannslied after Feuerkind it would be far stronger, albeit very short (~23 minutes I think). You see, I get that same imagery from, say, S.O.S. and Eisblumen as well. Of course, it creates an imbalance - there is too much ice and too few fire to counterweigh it, and that's something I have always considered a flaw in an otherwise nigh perfect album concept. Still, they fit in perfectly into the ice and fire scenery the songs you mentioned are trying to build for me, and as such should not be missed. But the ice must be counterbalanced; if not by fire, then at least by vitality, which is the purpose of Das Rätsel II and Sieben.
And that way, we arrive at the complete album again.


Indeed it feels very symphonic and I agree that Eric's voice got a lot better, but compared to earlier albums it somehow lacks the honest-to-heart attitude. Compare for example a clearly symphonic ballad Feuerkind (just take the part after "bis ich einst ein Streichholz fand", *quoting from memory*, which is very well done but just completely thought through) to a ballad like Maria, where you realise Ingo isn't all that great with the guitar but gets a great sound of it and Eric's vocals, while far from trained, transport the longing, the feeling, better than they could ever later on. (I know of the religious part of the song I am just ignoring it. :smallwink: ) See above. Yes, I agree... but then, I heard Feuerkind sung life, to a small audience and, if memory serves me right, only with an acoustic guitar and no other instruments to accompany it first, long before I got the album.
And whenever I hear it now, what I actually hear is how it sounded back then.
And that is one of the most heart-felt songs I know. (Did I mention it's my most favourite song from that album and, by extension, amongst all Subway To Sally songs? No? Well, it is! :smallwink: )


Or take the live version of Ohne Liebe in Schrei!. Here you can hear that it was cold and thus the flute is completely out of tone. And yet Eric continues to play it like nothing was wrong, carries this wonderful melody and although the sound is painful, it is so beautiful it starts to hurt.I... I must admit that I have avoided getting Schrei! so far. Mostly, because I have so very fond memories of that first concert where I heard Subway To Sally for the first time and which was a part of the Schrei! tour (at least I think it was). I am afraid the album might not live up to my memories or, even worse, be inferior to them and diminuish their glamour retroactively.


And before I forget it, it's unfair to compare NNO to Engelskrieger, the one album you skip 95% of the time when you listen to their albums straight through and that hits perfectly the other 5%. :smallwink:Well, I can't argue that. :smallbiggrin:


While I can see what you mean about Jester Race, those songs that stick out are excellent. I was thrilled the first time I listened to them, how could something called Melodic Death Metal be so downright beautiful? Songs like Moonshield, the Jester's Dance, Jester Race and Wayfaerer are simply beautiful and I got the hang of some others (like Lord Hypnos, which is actually damn catchy) after some time. Oh, I agree. And frankly, In Flames might have actually managed to become my number one most favourite band (although I haven't heard them life yet, which would be the ultimate test) - although the one album you discarded from your list, Reroute To Remain, played a significant role in them reaching that place. :smallwink:


Still Whoracle is better by a lot. Gyroscope is a Whoracle song by the way, it simply is on the extra edition of Jester Race. Still the overall quality only comes to you after many listening sessions. As with so many good bands and albums. I think I still might have not figured out all details from Blind Guardian's And Then There Was Silence...


But I enjoy Melodic Death Metal a lot, currently I like Arch Enemy best (besides, Angela is hot!), and the albums before their style change simply had the feeling of Melodeath in them, combined with a story told. Both are concept albums, and while I like some songs of newer albums, those two are strong as albums just because of that.It's just so difficult, without knowing the bands, to figure out which Death Metal is melodic, and which is just noise.
...then again, this goes for all metal.
...no, scratch that again, it actually goes for all music. :smallbiggrin:


Oh, I understand it. It feels just like a bastard between the three phases of them, the medieval phase, the creepy phase and the NNO phase. In that it sometimes does create a good mix, sometimes doesn't. Youtube has quite some of those songs. Prepare to be disturbed! *talks about Voodoo in the last sentence*How fitting. Oh, well, I will most definitely be getting it; I have enough trust in Subway To Sally to believe it will be worth it without giving it a try first. Besides, I consider an album to be a complex composition, with the songs arranged in the manner they are for a reason; tearing it apart and listening to them seperately is good after one knows the album, but for the first effect, it's best to hear it the way it was intended: Complete and in order. :smallwink:


How is my list by the way? I tried to use one of the songs that clearly catch the album's feels, but it isn't always that easy.Umm, pardon? I can't quite figure out which list you mean here?

[/QUOTE]You should listen to them instead. :smalltongue:[/QUOTE]Seconded! :smallbiggrin:


Hey great, Subway to Sally, mind if I join into the discussion? ;)Not at all, welcome on board. :smallsmile:


Let's see... I think I have a bit of a different viewpoint on their albums.Great! :smallsmile:


For myself, I consider "Herzblut", "Engelskrieger" (sic!) and "MCMXCV" (though I know i shouldn't talk about it as nobody else seems to possess it anymore;-)) their best albums.Okay, that's new as far as this thread goes, indeed.


"Herzblut" because the sound of it is just beautyful. I consider it the peak of their musical profession as it already had more metal and electric sounds than most of their previous albums but still preserved the medieval feeling in it. I especially liked the major theme of (loosing) control on this album and the beauty of the ballads on this album especially "Kleid aus Rosen", "Herrin des Feuers" and "so rot".I, too, think I might have well considered it equal or superior to Hochzeit (can't know for sure now anymore) if I didn't have so many memories associated with Hochzeit already before Herzblut came around.


"Engelskrieger" is indeed the creepiest album they ever produced, but as they always criticize with which they want to creep out (sometimes in detailing it into the goriest detail) and i like the aggressive/melancholic and thinking mood the album sets one in if you listen to it. Yes, i know what they are singing about in each song as me and my mother studied the lyrics quite intensively, arguing over different intepretations of them.:smallwink:
It is their most "realistically" and "modern" album, as songs like Unsterblich (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0Z8rwiNPw) and 2000 Meilen unter dem Meer touch themes absolutely inappropirate for any medieval setting. And though I could not listen it everywhere and every time, i still consider it to be one of their best.
Although I always have to skip "Narben" as that song just creeps even me out too much.I do not deny the depth or the value of the messages they are trying to convey - it is a great album indeed. The only problem is that, well, call me a wimp, but I find almost the entire album too creepy for my taste (although I agree, Narben is one of the worst offenders in this regard, next to Abendlied... which is well capable of causing me physical discomfort).


And "MCMXCV" is one of their best albums IMHO as all their themes already became laid out in this album. It is also very critical against society (especially war and greed) and also a quite sinister album, but with much more medieval touch than their new album. And if you thought they only had developed the metal influences since "Hochzeit", you are wrong. They only went back to the roots of the "MCMXCV" album. If you listen to songs like "Die Hexe", "Krähenfrass" and "Grabrede" you notice that they already had them back there.
I would recommend you to include this album in your collection.
For a few songs from it:
Die Jagd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtyvj1mvi8)

and: Grabrede (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE9lUypffYc) (please, don't comment the video. Yes it is absolutely low quality and yes, it is officially theirs. But hey, they didn't have any budget back then :smallwink: And the song is still good.)Oh yes; I haven't got this album myself, but there are so many fond memories connected with it (that was the album we listened to while we were on the train which brought us to the concert I mentioned before.
While roleplaying.
Hah, good times. :smallbiggrin:


Please ignore my lousy english and sentence structures, at least I tried. Didn't notice any grave mistakes; it doesn't seem to me that my English is much better, anyway. :smallwink:

[Ceska]

It is, and the whole song is one of those I like best from that album musically.
I strongly suspect I would have liked Engelskrieger a lot better if I had not stumbled upon a list of what the band meant by which of the Engelskrieger songs just prior to hearing the album for the first time. That way, I could not forget what they were singing about whenever I heard these songs.
Just listened to Engelskrieger again. I find I can distance myself from these songs supposed content much better and interprete them in any way I want to much better now. That greatly improves the album in my eyes.
Great to hear that. I think you have to see art removed from the artist, that means you should disregard the artist's opinion on art until you have your own. It's great to know what they thought about it, but the artist's opinion has a kind of authority on the work I wouldn't want to colour my own with.

I haven't listened to it for some time, but I think it was really one of the best musically. Although the whole album is very good.


Interesting imagery, but I understand exactly what you are trying to express with it. :smallbiggrin:
I'm not sure whether I agree, though. You don't get much redder than Narben, Unsterblich or Knochenschiff.
Rather, I would say that Hochzeit has more vitality than Engelskrieger. Hochzeit seems to be about "living in spite of (and even in the face of death)", compared to the "dying because of (and even while remaining alive)" of Engelskrieger, if this makes sense.
Well, but Engelskrieger creates imaginary that is close to Sin City in this regard to me. It's black and white with occasional red tones mixed in it. Hochzeit, in comparison, always keeps a reddish background, a dark red colour that lays over the camera's filter. It's like you look through red glass into a dark fantasy, whereas Engelskrieger is black and white in modern times with one colour digitally enhanced to give a bright red colour. (As you can see I'm a visual type)



That's true, I noticed it myself as well. It has gone away from the simplicity and, as you say, honest to heart feeling of the former albums. Although I have heard Eric sing Feuerkind on a solo concert of his, and it was one of the most straight-out-of-the-artist's heart songs I have ever heard. Otherwise, yes, I agree, though I find it a fair tradeoff for a sound more suited to my personal tastes; I can see how it would be very displeasing for someone who felt otherwise though.
Well, you see, I never heard it in another version than the studio or the Nackt one. And both are very symphonic and... somehow too technical I guess.


As for the sexual innuendo, I found it was much more subtle than on their former albums (Maria is by far not the only example; Hochzeit had an entire bunch of songs which went beyond innuendo and became explicit - need I say Ohne Liebe?), which I found preferable - it seemed less like lust and more like love that way.
Then again, Ohne Liebe is written in the third person, it's an unmoving observer, whereas Schneekönigin is in the first person. Schneekönigin also never gave me the feeling of love in any way ("Und dann leg ich meinen Kopf in ihren Schoß, Schnee fällt mitten in mein Herz, sie lässt mich nie mehr los") is more of an addiction, something he doesn't actually want but has to do. That's not lust, right, but it's not love either. It's just the forced need of a person that brings it to another.


And that way, we arrive at the complete album again.
With four songs that could have been done a lot better and are only there to balance themselves out. :smalltongue:


And that is one of the most heart-felt songs I know. (Did I mention it's my most favourite song from that album and, by extension, amongst all Subway To Sally songs? No? Well, it is! :smallwink: )
I wasn't surprised in the least you said that. Then again, it is clearly the best from the album, together with Seemannslied and 74(which is part of Feuerkind anyway).


Oh, I agree. And frankly, In Flames might have actually managed to become my number one most favourite band (although I haven't heard them life yet, which would be the ultimate test) - although the one album you discarded from your list, Reroute To Remain, played a significant role in them reaching that place. :smallwink:
Reroute To Remain and Soundtrack To Your Escape are the reasons it's not one of mine.


How fitting. Oh, well, I will most definitely be getting it; I have enough trust in Subway To Sally to believe it will be worth it without giving it a try first. Besides, I consider an album to be a complex composition, with the songs arranged in the manner they are for a reason; tearing it apart and listening to them seperately is good after one knows the album, but for the first effect, it's best to hear it the way it was intended: Complete and in order. :smallwink:
Then go out and buy it so we can discuss it! :smallwink:


Umm, pardon? I can't quite figure out which list you mean here?[/QUOTE
I made a list of the albums I know and the songs I think could be seen as representative for them in the first post.

QUOTE=Smeik;3500270]Hey great, Subway to Sally, mind if I join into the discussion? ;)
Of course not!


"Herzblut" because the sound of it is just beautyful. I consider it the peak of their musical profession as it already had more metal and electric sounds than most of their previous albums but still preserved the medieval feeling in it. I especially liked the major theme of (loosing) control on this album and the beauty of the ballads on this album especially "Kleid aus Rosen", "Herrin des Feuers" and "so rot".
You see, while I like the ballads of this album, just as the few lighter faster songs, one of the reasons I don't like the album that much is the electric sound it has. I like the acoustic version of Kleid aus Rosen, but have to skip the normal version of it. That hampers my enjoyment of the album a lot.


"Engelskrieger" is indeed the creepiest album they ever produced, but as they always criticize with which they want to creep out (sometimes in detailing it into the goriest detail) and i like the aggressive/melancholic and thinking mood the album sets one in if you listen to it. Yes, i know what they are singing about in each song as me and my mother studied the lyrics quite intensively, arguing over different intepretations of them.:smallwink:
It is their most "realistically" and "modern" album, as songs like Unsterblich (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0Z8rwiNPw) and 2000 Meilen unter dem Meer touch themes absolutely inappropirate for any medieval setting. And though I could not listen it everywhere and every time, i still consider it to be one of their best.
We did the studying part too! But still, I think in the right mood it is the perfect album, it's just that I don't have, nor want to have, this mood very often. And then it is placed lower than the other albums just because they made so many great albums by now.


Although I always have to skip "Narben" as that song just creeps even me out too much.
My mother always saw it from a point of view from a person that really has experience with depressive people (as far as I know the story goes that a great friend of hers was in the hospital after a suicide attempt when my mother was 25 and she 17, and after that lived with my mother and father and had them look up after her), which makes it uncomfortable to listen to, but not really creepy. It's more of discomforting than creeped out I get from this ever since then.


And "MCMXCV" is one of their best albums IMHO as all their themes already became laid out in this album. It is also very critical against society (especially war and greed) and also a quite sinister album, but with much more medieval touch than their new album. And if you thought they only had developed the metal influences since "Hochzeit", you are wrong. They only went back to the roots of the "MCMXCV" album. If you listen to songs like "Die Hexe", "Krähenfrass" and "Grabrede" you notice that they already had them back there.
Well, I do know some of those songs, while not all, and I do agree those are great. What I meant was more that the metal style they use on their newer albums is a development of the Hochzeit style.

I know Die Hexe, Grabrede, and Krähenfrass from friend and they are great songs.


Yes it is absolutely low quality and yes, it is officially theirs. But hey, they didn't have any budget back then :smallwink: And the song is still good.)
Oh come on! The video was totally awesome in that it was hilarious to watch. You just have to watch it with the enjoyment you get from a bad splatter movie or similar. But I agree that it doesn't do such a great song justice, especially since it doesn't quite fit the theme of the song.


I do not deny the depth or the value of the messages they are trying to convey - it is a great album indeed. The only problem is that, well, call me a wimp, but I find almost the entire album too creepy for my taste (although I agree, Narben is one of the worst offenders in this regard, next to Abendlied... which is well capable of causing me physical discomfort).
But physical discomfort is not always a bad thing. While I agree that it is hard to sit down and listen to it, when I do I want to be discomforted. And then it hits.

[Winterwind]

Great to hear that. I think you have to see art removed from the artist, that means you should disregard the artist's opinion on art until you have your own. It's great to know what they thought about it, but the artist's opinion has a kind of authority on the work I wouldn't want to colour my own with.

I haven't listened to it for some time, but I think it was really one of the best musically. Although the whole album is very good.Back in school we were taught how to take out knowledge of the artist and the circumstances on how a work came to be into account to discern the artist's intent when they use some certain figure or symbol, and to interprete this as the true meaning behind a song/poem/whatever. It's taken me a while to come to understand that the meaning of art is personal, not absolute, and that even the artist's word itself does not hold the ultimate truth, since just as large a contribution comes from the viewer/listener himself.


Well, but Engelskrieger creates imaginary that is close to Sin City in this regard to me. It's black and white with occasional red tones mixed in it. Hochzeit, in comparison, always keeps a reddish background, a dark red colour that lays over the camera's filter. It's like you look through red glass into a dark fantasy, whereas Engelskrieger is black and white in modern times with one colour digitally enhanced to give a bright red colour. (As you can see I'm a visual type)Engelskrieger does look into modern times, just as Hochzeit looks into a medieval fantasy, I fully agree in this regard.
However, I don't see much black and white in
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht, flammt durch die Nacht, nehmt euch in acht..."
"In deinen Augen spiegelt sich die Ewigkeit, diese Nacht macht mich unsterblich. In deinen Scho� leg ich die Hoffnung, die mir bleibt. Diese Nacht macht mich unsterblich, durch mein Blut."
"Dann ein Schnitt, klein und flach, und die Welt um mich bl�ht auf." (even the music after this line evokes 'red' in me, and I think we don't need to talk about the refrain... "Das Blut so rot, das Blut so rein...")
No, the imagery this creates in my mind is blood-red all over, without a doubt.

Also, there are exceptions to the modern part - Falscher Heiland, Wolfstraum, Verloren and Abendland fit just as well as medieval fantasy (dark as ever, of course).


Well, you see, I never heard it in another version than the studio or the Nackt one. And both are very symphonic and... somehow too technical I guess.I have found that associations play a huge role in determining which songs one likes and which one does not. An objectively inferior song (well, as much as one can talk about objectivity in these regards) may still become one's favourite if it is coupled to some positive memory.


Then again, Ohne Liebe is written in the third person, it's an unmoving observer, whereas Schneekönigin is in the first person. Schneekönigin also never gave me the feeling of love in any way ("Und dann leg ich meinen Kopf in ihren Schoß, Schnee fällt mitten in mein Herz, sie lässt mich nie mehr los") is more of an addiction, something he doesn't actually want but has to do. That's not lust, right, but it's not love either. It's just the forced need of a person that brings it to another.Yes, but that's the part that makes the song interesting to me. Otherwise, it would be just a love song; this way, there is a painful element to the beauty. I have equaled the song to a white rose with thorns in my mind.


With four songs that could have been done a lot better and are only there to balance themselves out. :smalltongue: Maybe.
Or maybe not. :smalltongue:


I wasn't surprised in the least you said that. Then again, it is clearly the best from the album, together with Seemannslied and 74(which is part of Feuerkind anyway).Indeed.


Reroute To Remain and Soundtrack To Your Escape are the reasons it's not one of mine.Heretic! :smallbiggrin:


Then go out and buy it so we can discuss it! :smallwink: Will do, one of these days. :smallbiggrin:


We did the studying part too! But still, I think in the right mood it is the perfect album, it's just that I don't have, nor want to have, this mood very often. And then it is placed lower than the other albums just because they made so many great albums by now.Similar stance here.


But physical discomfort is not always a bad thing. While I agree that it is hard to sit down and listen to it, when I do I want to be discomforted. And then it hits.That's perfectly true.
It's just that I am very rarely in a frame of mind where I desire that mood; I spend way too much time with melancholy as is, no need to further it even more.

[Ceska]

Back in school we were taught how to take out knowledge of the artist and the circumstances on how a work came to be into account to discern the artist's intent when they use some certain figure or symbol, and to interprete this as the true meaning behind a song/poem/whatever. It's taken me a while to come to understand that the meaning of art is personal, not absolute, and that even the artist's word itself does not hold the ultimate truth, since just as large a contribution comes from the viewer/listener himself.
Exactly, while the artist's personal views as well as his surrounding and time may not be discarded, they do not hold absolute authority over the work.

Now let's go into Engelskrieger, one by one and I'll say why I think it isn't red overall.
However, I don't see much black and white in
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht, flammt durch die Nacht, nehmt euch in acht..."
The flame that awakens is a bright white, not colour in there. It goes from dark, nearly black, grey to white in a second, but there's no colour in there to me.

"In deinen Augen spiegelt sich die Ewigkeit, diese Nacht macht mich unsterblich. In deinen Scho� leg ich die Hoffnung, die mir bleibt. Diese Nacht macht mich unsterblich, durch mein Blut."
And the red part comes only after "durch mein Blut". That's the feeling of a red colour that flares up for a second, not a colour that makes the theme of the song or the album.

"Dann ein Schnitt, klein und flach, und die Welt um mich bl�ht auf." (even the music after this line evokes 'red' in me, and I think we don't need to talk about the refrain... "Das Blut so rot, das Blut so rein...")
No, the imagery this creates in my mind is blood-red all over, without a doubt.
And there it is again. To me, that's a few seconds or parts of a song, and not even the whole album (take 2000 Meilen unter dem Meer for example, that feels like NNO to me).

On the other hand, Hochzeit keeps the red theme throughout the songs and the album. Böses Erwachen is red through and through to me, as is Henkersbraut, Sabbat, Das Opfer, Tag der Rache. But even those who have not the overall feeling have the red part just as much as the ones of Engelskrieger have. The whole album invokes a red colour in my eye, whereas Engelskrieger is black and white with an occasional drop of blood. It's like the typical anime shot of blood against all white background or blood in snow, but that doesn't make the theme red, just sprinkled with it.


Also, there are exceptions to the modern part - Falscher Heiland, Wolfstraum, Verloren and Abendland fit just as well as medieval fantasy (dark as ever, of course).
That is correct. But together with the other songs they get another feeling. The use of first person in most of them doesn't help that of course. It's only because of that that they have a modern feeling, yes, but it's an album we are talking about after all, and except for Falscher Heiland I did not know these songs before buying the album (where I had Unsterblich and Geist des Kriegers on my PC two years before buying from a list of songs a friend liked back then).


Yes, but that's the part that makes the song interesting to me. Otherwise, it would be just a love song; this way, there is a painful element to the beauty. I have equaled the song to a white rose with thorns in my mind.
I rather have the feeling of ice in your hand when you see the first snow in the year and you pick it up disbelievingly in my head, but I understand what you mean. That is why it is one of my favourites of the album after all.


That's perfectly true.
It's just that I am very rarely in a frame of mind where I desire that mood; I spend way too much time with melancholy as is, no need to further it even more.
I'm trying to remember a famous quote on how melancholy is a German trait, but I can't recall it now. (I'm pretty sure it is nineteenth century, and it's a German quote).

[Winterwind]

Exactly, while the artist's personal views as well as his surrounding and time may not be discarded, they do not hold absolute authority over the work.Right on.


The flame that awakens is a bright white, not colour in there. It goes from dark, nearly black, grey to white in a second, but there's no colour in there to me.Not so for me. It's a song of wrath, after all.


And the red part comes only after "durch mein Blut". That's the feeling of a red colour that flares up for a second, not a colour that makes the theme of the song or the album.Okay, I concede this one. It is a very dark song overall.


And there it is again. To me, that's a few seconds or parts of a song, and not even the whole album .That was just an exemplary line; but this particular song is concerned with pain and blood from the beginning to the end.


(take 2000 Meilen unter dem Meer for example, that feels like NNO to me)In terms of colours, yes, I agree, it is icy cold. In terms of theme, not so much.


On the other hand, Hochzeit keeps the red theme throughout the songs and the album. Böses Erwachen is red through and through to me, as is Henkersbraut, Sabbat, Das Opfer, Tag der Rache. But even those who have not the overall feeling have the red part just as much as the ones of Engelskrieger have. The whole album invokes a red colour in my eye, whereas Engelskrieger is black and white with an occasional drop of blood. It's like the typical anime shot of blood against all white background or blood in snow, but that doesn't make the theme red, just sprinkled with it.Different perception, I suppose. And I see little white about Engelskrieger (with the one exception of 2000 Meilen unterm Meer). It's too dark for that.


That is correct. But together with the other songs they get another feeling. The use of first person in most of them doesn't help that of course. It's only because of that that they have a modern feeling, yes, but it's an album we are talking about after all, and except for Falscher Heiland I did not know these songs before buying the album (where I had Unsterblich and Geist des Kriegers on my PC two years before buying from a list of songs a friend liked back then).I always thought it was not coincidence that all of these songs (except for Falscher Heiland) are all together at the end of the album. It's like it was a completely different part of the album, a switch of concept, which occurred between Knochenschiff and Wolfstraum. I noticed it when I heard the album for the first time already; they did not seem to fit together, the last three songs form an entity of its own, distant, seperate, isolated from the "modern" songs forming the rest of the album.


I'm trying to remember a famous quote on how melancholy is a German trait, but I can't recall it now. (I'm pretty sure it is nineteenth century, and it's a German quote).I seem to recall this quote too, but cannot place it either.
Anyway, I am not German, or at least, not only, and not by heritage. I'm Polish; although after growing up here, I consider myself both, and besides, Slavs have just as much a tradition of melancholy.

[Ceska]

Not so for me. It's a song of wrath, after all.
It is wrath, but the music invokes a bright white colour on a dark theme in me, not a colourful one.


That was just an exemplary line; but this particular song is concerned with pain and blood from the beginning to the end.
Pain doesn't have to be blood red though. It's actually that, considering the theme of cutting, the blood is a form of releasing pressure. The pain in it is dark to me, only the flash of blood sometimes is seen.


In terms of colours, yes, I agree, it is icy cold. In terms of theme, not so much.
I don't know, hospitals always have a cold, sterile feel to me.


Different perception, I suppose. And I see little white about Engelskrieger (with the one exception of 2000 Meilen unterm Meer). It's too dark for that.
Earlier you spoke of how the first impression colours your perception. I bought Hochzeit and Bannkreis in the late summer early autumn of 2006 IIRC, Engelskrieger last November/December and NNO the February of 2006. That makes a lot of difference, since February is cold, but bright, whereas November and early December are cold, grey months, but already show the first snow. It's the impression of first snow in contrast to the darkness of the short days and early rising moon that give me this feeling.

Also, white is not a positive colour to me. Blueish or yellowish white are, but white without any other colour in it is cold, sterile and painful. It's not so much beautiful as it is clearly negative. In that it is more negative than black to me.


I always thought it was not coincidence that all of these songs (except for Falscher Heiland) are all together at the end of the album. It's like it was a completely different part of the album, a switch of concept, which occurred between Knochenschiff and Wolfstraum. I noticed it when I heard the album for the first time already; they did not seem to fit together, the last three songs form an entity of its own, distant, seperate, isolated from the "modern" songs forming the rest of the album.
Yes, but I think the album actually is like a blaze of light that you see, then fades away but stays burned into your retina for long after. It starts with the three hardest songs (and the first of them is also the hardest of the whole album). They are distant in that the sound of them seems to fade, but stays stuck.


I seem to recall this quote too, but cannot place it either.
Anyway, I am not German, or at least, not only, and not by heritage. I'm Polish; although after growing up here, I consider myself both, and besides, Slavs have just as much a tradition of melancholy.
You're Polish? I didn't know that. You seemed to be the German in this forum to me, I guess I have to reconsider that. To be fair, yes Slavs are just as melancholic, so it still fits.

[Smeik]

It is wrath, but the music invokes a bright white colour on a dark theme in me, not a colourful one.

I actually See Engelskrieger as being red and black with sparks of sterile white, aso opposed to Hochzeits pure red theme and Herzblut seems red and white to me (yes, inspired by the cover work :smallwink:). Yes, this is mainly because of the blood-drenched texts and the raw flesh that is blinking through the lyrics.

How do you want to express "Knochenschiff" without pale white and blood red?



Pain doesn't have to be blood red though. It's actually that, considering the theme of cutting, the blood is a form of releasing pressure. The pain in it is dark to me, only the flash of blood sometimes is seen.

But this spark is seen quite often actually, staying in mind.



I think the album actually is like a blaze of light that you see, then fades away but stays burned into your retina for long after. It starts with the three hardest songs (and the first of them is also the hardest of the whole album). They are distant in that the sound of them seems to fade, but stays stuck.


Yes, but right in the middle of the Album there are also the songs "Kleine Schwester" and "Abendlied" that aren't anywhere near as hard as those before and after them, what gives them a feeling of unity. They are like Feuerkind on NNO, throwing you into a melancholic hole before going back to the harder songs. (although especially Abendlied is also really creepy...)
They build a unity on their own, so you could argue to divide the album into 4 parts, not only two.

Perhaps it is better compared to a torch, flaring all the time till it burns down at the end.

Smeik

[Winterwind]

Pain doesn't have to be blood red though. It's actually that, considering the theme of cutting, the blood is a form of releasing pressure. The pain in it is dark to me, only the flash of blood sometimes is seen.Different mental images again, then.


I don't know, hospitals always have a cold, sterile feel to me.Me too, that's why I said it is a cold, pale song.
What I meant by theme is, that it deals with pain and death, like all of Engelskrieger does, unlike the (in comparison, anyway) fairytale like stories of Nord Nord Ost.


Earlier you spoke of how the first impression colours your perception. I bought Hochzeit and Bannkreis in the late summer early autumn of 2006 IIRC, Engelskrieger last November/December and NNO the February of 2006. That makes a lot of difference, since February is cold, but bright, whereas November and early December are cold, grey months, but already show the first snow. It's the impression of first snow in contrast to the darkness of the short days and early rising moon that give me this feeling. I see.

Well fitting months to get these albums respectively. Very well, even.


Also, white is not a positive colour to me. Blueish or yellowish white are, but white without any other colour in it is cold, sterile and painful. It's not so much beautiful as it is clearly negative. In that it is more negative than black to me.I know; I have been using it in the same way, at least with regards to Engelskrieger. NNO is more of a blueish, shimmering crystal-beauty shade of white, like an untouched winter landscape.


Yes, but I think the album actually is like a blaze of light that you see, then fades away but stays burned into your retina for long after. It starts with the three hardest songs (and the first of them is also the hardest of the whole album). They are distant in that the sound of them seems to fade, but stays stuck.They are the hardest songs... but I see very little light on Engelskrieger, almost none actually. These very songs you compare to a blaze of light, the first one of them especially, are more like a black cloud over a night sky to me.


You're Polish? I didn't know that. You seemed to be the German in this forum to me, I guess I have to reconsider that. To be fair, yes Slavs are just as melancholic, so it still fits."The German" :smallbiggrin:
No, born in Wrocław (Breslau), but moved when I was four. Grew up bilingually though.


I actually See Engelskrieger as being red and black with sparks of sterile white, aso opposed to Hochzeits pure red theme and Herzblut seems red and white to me (yes, inspired by the cover work :smallwink:). Yes, this is mainly because of the blood-drenched texts and the raw flesh that is blinking through the lyrics.

How do you want to express "Knochenschiff" without pale white and blood red?This is pretty much exactly how I see these albums as well, especially with regards to Engelskrieger. Red and black, with few sparks of sterile white.


Yes, but right in the middle of the Album there are also the songs "Kleine Schwester" and "Abendlied" that aren't anywhere near as hard as those before and after them, what gives them a feeling of unity. They are like Feuerkind on NNO, throwing you into a melancholic hole before going back to the harder songs. (although especially Abendlied is also really creepy...)
They build a unity on their own, so you could argue to divide the album into 4 parts, not only two.

Perhaps it is better compared to a torch, flaring all the time till it burns down at the end.These songs create a link musically, but there remains a strong difference in the songs' content. The last three songs are far less morbid than the ones before, and could just as well fit into a medieval theme, as opposed to all the ones before.

[Ceska]

Different mental images again, then.
Yes. :smallsmile: I guess we can agree on those.

I won't go into the Engelskrieger discussion anymore, we pretty much agree to have different pictures when thinking of the songs and thus different reactions. Here's what I get from them though:

Geist des Kriegers: Starts out very dark, the music sets in like a flash of light, like a torch set aflame. It stays ghostly, untouchable, sterile white body on a dark background.

Falscher Heiland: Is probably the reddest song to me, but only because I first saw it from a live show where they used red smoke. Is pretty much colourless otherwise.

Unsterblich: Seems very grey to me. I always get the feeling of a modern city at night, as well as seen in a black and white movie.

Kleine Schwester: Colourless to dark greyish blue.

Abendlied: I combine it with Kleine Schwester in my mind. Every time. Those two actually creep me out more than Narben ever could (probably because I have a four year old sister).

Narben: Sterile white, pictures of ambulance and hospitals, sometimes therapists I've spoken to, only a few red streams of blood.

2000 Meilen unterm Meer: Similar to Narben, sterile, white, hospitals but also keeping a ice-blue touch.

Knochenschiff: It's a red song, I give you that. But the lyrics make it entirely... ignorable to me. Usually it passes, I sing along a bit, I think the music is good and I'm done. I'm just not... addressed... at all, it doesn't touch me in the least.

Wolfstraum: Dark, grey, actually I get the picture of a full moon shining on cold fields and forests. So it's pretty much a picture, not a colour I associate.

Verloren: Is an abstract picture to me. Somehow I get lost in the fleeting colours, none sticks, neither does the actual picture, only words remain.

Abendland: Dark brown, apocalyptic plains, destroyed cities, a few lights from fireplaces in between.


"The German" :smallbiggrin:
No, born in Wrocław (Breslau), but moved when I was four. Grew up bilingually though.
Cool, but you still don't escape that label now. :smallwink: I'd need another likeable German posting enough for you to lose it. So if Smeik doesn't go on and post more you'll be stuck with it. :smallbiggrin:


These songs create a link musically, but there remains a strong difference in the songs' content. The last three songs are far less morbid than the ones before, and could just as well fit into a medieval theme, as opposed to all the ones before.
Well, they could fit in a medieval theme quite well, but still they are typically Engelskrieger. Especially if you consider how the others (as in those I own) end.

Foppt den Dämon ends with Maria, a wonderful bitter-sweet love song.
Bannkreis ends with Syrah, the sad highlight had just passed and the song is actually quite... tame I guess.
Hochzeit ends with Müde, a wonderfully melancholic song, but still not as much telling of impending doom as Abendland.
Herzblut ends with Kleid aus Rosen acoustic, a wonderful and sad ballad.
NNO ends with Seemannslied, a longing ballad, one of the best of the album.
Bastard ends with In der Stille, on which I can't say much, I don't like it all that much, thus I usually skip it. Fatum is a good song though, that reminds me a lot of Vagabund.

The dark theme of Engelskrieger is kept, as is the critical. It's more open and direct on its approach than Bannkreis is, and it's darker in some sense. No, they fit exactly as they are.

Smeik is right, by the way. It really feels like a torch more than a short flame. Though I have to say that Wolfstraum and Knochenschiff pass me by half the time I listen to the album without me really noticing. They simply don't get stuck in my mind that much, which is why I used a different example at first.

[Smeik]

Cool, but you still don't escape that label now. :smallwink: I'd need another likeable German posting enough for you to lose it. So if Smeik doesn't go on and post more you'll be stuck with it. :smallbiggrin:


I will try my best. :smallbiggrin:




Well, they could fit in a medieval theme quite well, but still they are typically Engelskrieger. Especially if you consider how the others (as in those I own) end.

Foppt den Dämon ends with Maria, a wonderful bitter-sweet love song.
Bannkreis ends with Syrah, the sad highlight had just passed and the song is actually quite... tame I guess.
Hochzeit ends with Müde, a wonderfully melancholic song, but still not as much telling of impending doom as Abendland.
Herzblut ends with Kleid aus Rosen acoustic, a wonderful and sad ballad.
NNO ends with Seemannslied, a longing ballad, one of the best of the album.
Bastard ends with In der Stille, on which I can't say much, I don't like it all that much, thus I usually skip it. Fatum is a good song though, that reminds me a lot of Vagabund.

The dark theme of Engelskrieger is kept, as is the critical. It's more open and direct on its approach than Bannkreis is, and it's darker in some sense. No, they fit exactly as they are.

But if you compare the ending of Engelskrieger to these other Endings, you can also see that it follows a traditional concept Subway to Sally uses on all its albums, to have a beutyful ballad at the end, a sad reminder ballad of the theme of the entire album. Alt least that is how I feel it. And in this context, Abendland is the perfect conclusion to an album that is, although darker, just as much Subway to Sally as all their other albums.
Well, at least if you ignore MCMXV, which ends with Carrickfergus, a Song that is not a ballad or slow or sad whatsoever



Smeik is right, by the way. It really feels like a torch more than a short flame. Though I have to say that Wolfstraum and Knochenschiff pass me by half the time I listen to the album without me really noticing. They simply don't get stuck in my mind that much, which is why I used a different example at first.

I have to admit that Knochenschiff is one of the most moving songs on the entire album, als it always reminds me of several of my friends, who just as well could be such a "Knochenschiff"...

To "Bastard" I have to say that it feels as if it is the first album without a clear definable single theme for me, it just feels like a child with too many parents, as i have the feeling that alweays at least one of the songs would have fitted just as well on one of their previous albums.
Not that it is bad altogether, I like the songs, but I miss the unity the other Subway to Sally albums have.

Smeik

[Ceska]

Sorry it took me so long to respond, I was kind of busy the last days.


But if you compare the ending of Engelskrieger to these other Endings, you can also see that it follows a traditional concept Subway to Sally uses on all its albums, to have a beautiful ballad at the end, a sad reminder ballad of the theme of the entire album. At least that is how I feel it. And in this context, Abendland is the perfect conclusion to an album that is, although darker, just as much Subway to Sally as all their other albums.
That's actually what I wanted to say. While it is typically Engelskrieger, it's still how Subway to Sally seems to end albums.


I have to admit that Knochenschiff is one of the most moving songs on the entire album, as it always reminds me of several of my friends, who just as well could be such a "Knochenschiff"...
That shows quite well how different pre-experience can affect the idea a song gives to ones mind.


To "Bastard" I have to say that it feels as if it is the first album without a clear definable single theme for me, it just feels like a child with too many parents, as i have the feeling that always at least one of the songs would have fitted just as well on one of their previous albums.
I think that's what the theme of the album is. It's a bastard of different influences they took up over the time. I think it works quite well.


Not that it is bad altogether, I like the songs, but I miss the unity the other Subway to Sally albums have.
I don't think so. It seems to grow onto me. Sure, they don't give the feeling of unity that some other albums give, but then, compare it to Foppt den Dämon for example. It's just as disunited, and it still works and seems quite well together. You have to get a certain feeling from an album to think it has a unity (at least that's how I feel) and Bastard manages to do this for me. But as I said, it took me some time. I think it's actually a very good album if you skip Wehe Stunde and In der Stille. That means it feels a lot like Foppt den Dämon to me, some great songs, some good, two mediocre and two I can't listen to.

So now, let's start to discuss the new songs. :smallbiggrin: