Spiritual Weapon Optimization

[bean illus]

I've read that it's a great spell, and read that it's not.

Are there ways to optimize it? (Hopefully, ways that don't decrease the characters other effectiveness)

Some obvious stuff:


Spiritual weapon attacks at BAB, so obviously divine power. Now you're getting max iterative attacks per round.
Wis to damage. So any Wis buff.
Travel Devotion, because many clerics want it anyway, and now you can move while directing the SW.
Multiple castings: Now you get lots of 1d8 +wis attacks per rd.
Fell Drain and/or Death Devotion? (though these only affect creatures with levels?)
Invisible Spell, confusing the target, who now might not know how to act.


There's Persistent Spell, but it will suck when dispelled, and the investment is lost.

Am i wasting my time, or is there potential?

[Saintheart]

Careful selection of one's god might have some impact on the critical hit range, since the spell "often" produces a force replica of your god's favoured weapon. But on the other hand, it strikes as a spell, not a weapon, so the critical hit range is probably stuck at 20.

[Darg]

Greater Magic Weapon can be useful to increase the hit chance and damage. Other effects that add properties to weapons should also work. Theoretically, it could be grabbed out of the air and used as an actual weapon. That's all I've got.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Careful selection of one's god might have some impact on the critical hit range, since the spell "often" produces a force replica of your god's favoured weapon. But on the other hand, it strikes as a spell, not a weapon, so the critical hit range is probably stuck at 20.Is there a version of the spell that isn't the same as mine? Because mine says, "The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form."

There's no "often" to it; it just does.

Since you don't add feats or Strength to it, being 2-handed makes no difference at all, and Power Attack (etc) is completely irrelevant. And since the weapon size and base damage are static, outside of crit abilities and special weapon abilities (such as trip or the sand blaster's AoE effect), most weapon stats simply don't matter.

Several metamagic feats would be useful, although I don't recall how metamagic affects effects like this; Empower and Maximize could do fun stuff to the spell's damage, although I'm pretty sure that doesn't work. Enlarge Spell would allow it to attack farther away.

Extend Spell would double the amount of damage it could do due to doubling the duration.

Persistent Spell would allow you to keep the effect up all day, which has applications of its own.

Invisible Spell might allow you to sneak attack with it, if you had the ability via levels in rogue or swordsage (making it a decent option for a RKV build).

War Magic Study would allow you to attack dozens of enemies per round, although you'd have to deal with the feat's downsides, such as familiarizing yourself with the battlefield beforehand (which could be made up for via an acorn of far travel) and the 1 minute casting time (which could be reduced via the Linked Power feat, although this wouldn't work for non-manifesters). Anyone know of a way to reduce the casting time to 1 round or less? Rapid Spell is definitely a no-go, because the wording on the feat is crap. WMS would piggyback extremely well with Persistent Spell.

...Huh. Your feats explicitly do not affect the weapon, so I don't think any feats technically work, even metamagic ones. Extending the spell would mean the weapon still winks out at the original duration's end, despite the new duration being longer. Ugh. I hate 3.5's penchant for terrible, unclear, and stupid wording.

It's not Duration: Concentration, so things like Familiar Concentration wouldn't allow you to pass control off to a familiar, although imbue with spell ability would allow a familiar to direct it so you wouldn't have to spend your actions to do so.

[Troacctid]

It's a War domain spell, so if you're an ordained champion, you can quicken it for free. There are a couple other effects like Holy Warrior that grant bonuses to War domain spells too.

[Saintheart]

Is there a version of the spell that isn't the same as mine? Because mine says, "The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form."

There's no "often" to it; it just does.

Current version of the SRD as at 11.15 pm my local time:


A weapon made of pure force springs into existence and attacks opponents at a distance, as you direct it, dealing 1d8 force damage per hit, +1 point per three caster levels (maximum +5 at 15th level). The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form. It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack in the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter on your turn. It uses your base attack bonus (possibly allowing it multiple attacks per round in subsequent rounds) plus your Wisdom modifier as its attack bonus. It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so, for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction. As a force effect, it can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality. The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon. If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers.

Each round after the first, you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target. If you do not, the weapon continues to attack the previous round’s target. On any round that the weapon switches targets, it gets one attack. Subsequent rounds of attacking that target allow the weapon to make multiple attacks if your base attack bonus would allow it to. Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell’s range, not the weapon’s normal range increment, and switching targets still is a move action.

A spiritual weapon cannot be attacked or harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, disintegrate, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation affects it. A spiritual weapon’s AC against touch attacks is 12 (10 + size bonus for Tiny object).

If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the spiritual weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the weapon has its normal full effect on that creature for the duration of the spell.

(Over here, bro) The weapon that you get is often a force replica of your deity’s own personal weapon. A cleric without a deity gets a weapon based on his alignment. A neutral cleric without a deity can create a spiritual weapon of any alignment, provided he is acting at least generally in accord with that alignment at the time. The weapons associated with each alignment are as follows.


So maybe there's something in scouring the splats for descriptions of the deity's own weapon rather than just the favoured weapon?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Earlier in the spell it just says it "does" take a specific shape; what does "often" even mean? What percentage of the time does it take favored weapon shape, and what shape does it take when it doesn't? What abilities does the shape give it, since the shape explicitly alters its abilities?

I...don't think going with "often means it sometimes doesn't" is viable, since it leaves a lot of mechanical questions unanswered. Unless it's purely cosmetic, and it's always a favored weapon; it just sometimes has an extra special look, changing from "generic favored weapon" to "specific fancy favored weapon"?

[rrwoods]

My reading is that it always takes the shape of the *kind* of weapon your deity favors (I.e. a longsword) and that’s what statistics it uses, but much of the time it looks like their *exact* personal weapon.

“A weapon favored by your deity” the first time around, vs “your deity’s own personal weapon” the second time.

[Lilapop]

My reading is that it always takes the shape of the *kind* of weapon your deity favors (I.e. a longsword) and that’s what statistics it uses, but much of the time it looks like their *exact* personal weapon.

In the PHB, Saintheart's line also includes a reference to the list of the actual weapons (missing on the SRD because Greyhawk isn't under the OGL) and the names of the individual ones. So there is something to this reading.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In the PHB, Saintheart's line also includes a reference to the list of the actual weapons (missing on the SRD because Greyhawk isn't under the OGL) and the names of the individual ones. So there is something to this reading.So good luck if you're playing somewhere else, I guess.

[Lilapop]

So good luck if you're playing somewhere else, I guess.

Exactly. The spell just fizzles when your campaign is not set in Greyhawk.

Or maybe the deity descriptions in other settings (and the other Greyhawk deities!) include this info one by one, specifically so this spell and the war domain power keep functioning.


On the other line of nitpickery: Feats do not affect the weapon (and therefore its attacks), but do they affect the spell? RAI is clear, as the feats are mentioned inbetween flanking and charging, but RAW... is fun.

[Particle_Man]

Perhaps an illusion of someone welding the spiritual weapon? Since the weapon does actual damage, enemies could waste a lot of time dealing with their “opponent”.

[Particle_Man]

Careful selection of one's god might have some impact on the critical hit range, since the spell "often" produces a force replica of your god's favoured weapon. But on the other hand, it strikes as a spell, not a weapon, so the critical hit range is probably stuck at 20.

The critical threat range and multiplier matches the weapon. There are also “non-deity” alignment options like “long sword” for law.

[Troacctid]

Perhaps an illusion of someone welding the spiritual weapon? Since the weapon does actual damage, enemies could waste a lot of time dealing with their “opponent”.
This seems inefficient, since you'd need to concentrate on the illusion. I guess you could use Trickery Devotion or Deceptive Spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Waitaminnit. Spiritual weapon "often" creates a force replica of your deity's weapon. So if you worship, say, Orcus as your deity, that means you get a functional replica of his Wand of Orcus*. So a level 2 spell can recreate a +6 unholy chaotic heavy mace made of force that can cast Abyssal might, bodak birth, call nightmare, clutch of Orcus, summon monster VII, wrack, and wretched blight, all 1/day?



*Or, I guess, the Orcusword.

[Troacctid]

Waitaminnit. Spiritual weapon "often" creates a force replica of your deity's weapon. So if you worship, say, Orcus as your deity, that means you get a functional replica of his Wand of Orcus*. So a level 2 spell can recreate a +6 unholy chaotic heavy mace made of force that can cast Abyssal might, bodak birth, call nightmare, clutch of Orcus, summon monster VII, wrack, and wretched blight, all 1/day?



*Or, I guess, the Orcusword.
Unfortunately, that's not how replicas work. :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately, that's not how replicas work. :smallwink:What, your Power Ranger Zord replicas don't allow you to fight giant monsters?

[Thurbane]

Blade of Force and Invisible Needle reserve feats both add +1 CL to all of your force descriptor spells.

Argent Savant 1 gets +2 to hit with force spells; and at 3rd level gets to auto extend force spells (and also makes them harder to dispel). It's an arcane PrC, though, so will be of limited use in most builds.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Blade of Force and Invisible Needle reserve feats both add +1 CL to all of your force descriptor spells.Due to WotC's stupidity, your feats won't affect the created weapon in any way, even if they affect the spell used to cast it.

[Ramza00]

Hammersphere is Spiritual Weapon in Item Form from the MIC and an earlier book I forgot, with higher damage, but maxes out at 7 CL so only 7 rounds of combat. It is only 1.5k if you buy the item outright and cheaper if you craft it.

With such a cheap item save your spell slots unless you are stacking metamagic to apply status effects. That said there are better platforms to apply status effects in the Wizard class but also the Cleric class.

[Biggus]

Current version of the SRD as at 11.15 pm my local time:

So maybe there's something in scouring the splats for descriptions of the deity's own weapon rather than just the favoured weapon?


The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below)

[...]

The weapon that you get is often a force replica of your deity’s own personal weapon. A cleric without a deity gets a weapon based on his alignment. A neutral cleric without a deity can create a spiritual weapon of any alignment, provided he is acting at least generally in accord with that alignment at the time.

It seems pretty clear to me that the meaning is: if you worship a specific deity, it takes the form of your deity's favored weapon. If you don't it takes the form of an alignment-based weapon.

[bean illus]

It seems pretty clear to me that the meaning is: if you worship a specific deity, it takes the form of your deity's favored weapon. If you don't it takes the form of an alignment-based weapon.

That seems obvious, and easiest. There are a few deities where two weapons are associated with the deity (such as Corellon where long sword is the favored weapon, but longbow is also noted). But since the crit range and multiplier cannot be increased, the difference in total damage output isn't very large.


Hammersphere is Spiritual Weapon in Item Form from the MIC and an earlier book I forgot, with higher damage, but maxes out at 7 CL so only 7 rounds of combat. It is only 1.5k if you buy the item outright and cheaper if you craft it.

With such a cheap item save your spell slots unless you are stacking metamagic to apply status effects. That said there are better platforms to apply status effects in the Wizard class but also the Cleric class.

At first 1,500 gp seemed really cheap.
Then i noticed that the hammersphere (at CL 7) also maxes at +5 BAB and 1 attack per round, as well as CL 7 on the check to overcome SR. So though the hammersphere is great if you get it at 5th level, it begins to lose effectiveness at 7th, and is no longer much use by 11th.

Whereas by 7th a spiritual weapon cast by a divine power cleric is striking twice at BAB +7; hitting more often, overcoming SR more often, critting more often, and delivering rider effects more often.

[Ramza00]

Why would Hammersphere not use your own BAB plus your Wisdom modifier as the spell Spiritual Weapon?

[Particle_Man]

Why would Hammersphere not use your own BAB plus your Wisdom modifier as the spell Spiritual Weapon?

I guess it depends if the caster level of the item is relevant in the way it would be for wands, scrolls and potions.

If the item is keyed to the user of the item instead then the hammersphere should be given to whichever party member has a high bab and good wisdom score. It is a nice ranged option for a wise melee fighter.

[Darg]

I guess it depends if the caster level of the item is relevant in the way it would be for wands, scrolls and potions.

If the item is keyed to the user of the item instead then the hammersphere should be given to whichever party member has a high bab and good wisdom score. It is a nice ranged option for a wise melee fighter.

Spiritual weapon uses the caster's BAB. It has nothing to do with caster level unless you want to go on a quest to find the creator to use their BAB. You can be a level 20 cleric with 15 BAB and make the item CL7.

[AnimeTheCat]

Due to WotC's stupidity, your feats won't affect the created weapon in any way, even if they affect the spell used to cast it.

I don't think it's that limited, and here's why.

Caster level effects the spell, not the affect of the spell. The weapon that is produced is the affect, no the spell itself. So, when you cast the spell you have a CL of +2 from those two feats. The spell lasts for whatever number of rounds based on your caster level. But, Weapon Focus does not effect the spell and, by the wording of the spell, it also wouldn't effect the weapon created either (feats don't effect the weapon).

So, I argue that since the metamagic feats apply to the spell, not the affect, they would increase the duration or damage of the spell (i.e. that 1d8+1 per 3 CL) but weapon focus and power attack would not apply because they don't apply to the spell.

[Particle_Man]

If you don't mind 3rd party, Quintessential Cleric has a rule for making your own holy symbol which would make your personal spells add 1 to all variable effects, like the damage of spiritual weapon.