GOO Warlock Cantrips

[saucerhead]

This is for my darkest dungeon inspired campaign. It is for the Occultist/GOO Warlock character in the group. I would appreciate any thoughts or input.

Wyrd Reconstruction cantrip available only to the Occultist
1 action, touch, V,S,M and instant.
The target gains 1d6-1 hit points and makes a Wisdom save vs. DC13. Failing this save means the target loses one hit point on their turn for the next three rounds due to unforeseen bleeding. Obviously, these hit points can be subsequently healed with further treatment/casting, but the spell’s potential bleeding is cumulative for each casting. The spell's healing increases to 1d10-1 hit points at 5th level, and to 1d20-1 hit points at 8th level.

Edited version

Wyrd Reconstruction -cantrip
1 action, touch, V,S,M, and instant
The target gains 1d8-1 hit points and either the caster or the target reduces their available Hit Dice by one. If neither has an available Hit Dice the spell fails. The spell's healing increases to 1d10-1 hit points at 5th level, and to 1d12-1 hit points at 8th level.

[MoiMagnus]

Unlimited healing outside of combat!

Assuming that the target is a Lv1 cleric with 16 Wis, the cleric has +5 as it Wis save.
Each time you heal, you heal 2.5 HP (1d6-1) in average, and lose 1.05 HP (3*7/20) in average.
This mean you are able to regenerate the cleric of 1.45HP per 6s, so 14.5HP per minute. Without any downsides.

It gets even worst starting at level 5, where it's pretty much unlimited healing for everyone, not just for someone with a high Wis save.

I suggest the following instead:
"The target can spend one of its hit dice, and recover hit points from it as if it was during a short rest (so hit dice + Constitution modifier)." So that this spell consume some resources.

UNLESS the GM playstyle is already such that PCs are fully healed at the beginning of each combat (abundance of free healing potions, or free NPC healers, etc), in which case having access to free unlimited healing is not a big deal, and this looks fine for me.

[Herbert_W]

Not only does this provide unlimited healing outside of combat, but there's a lot of dicework involved. There's a roll for healing and a save every round, the possibility of multiple overlapping durations for ongoing damage, and the healing is slow so this could go on for a while.

There's a tiny possibility that this cantrip could end up hurting more than it heals, necessitating the use of some other healing resource to avoid risk of killing the intended beneficiary. I assume that this is by design. However, this means that the dicework can't be handwaved. The DM won't just say "OK, it takes some arbitrary number of minutes, but you're all healed" because properly representing the risks inherent to this cantrip requires all of those rolls.

Let's take a step back: what do you want to do with this cantrip? Is unlimited out-of-combat healing your goal? Do you want it to be risky to use in combat, out of combat, or both?

[saucerhead]

Thanks for the replies. You guys are right. Even with the chance of rolling a 1 on a d6 and failing the save, eventually it becomes an unlimited heal, and everyone is full all the time in a minute or less. Which sucks. My idea was to give the Goolock (and only him) a cantrip heal that is potentially life saving, but also risky. Unfortunately, there isn't really a mechanism in the game saying this spell can only be cast in combat.

[Yakk]

The classic healing cantrip involves expending a HD from the target (or the caster!).

You can roll that into a risk.

If it is less efficient than expending the HD in a short rest, it doesn't obsolete short rests either.

[saucerhead]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Maybe I will try: target gains 1d8-1 HP and either the caster or target loses a Hit Dice. We'll see how it goes unless the character wants to pick a different cantrip.

[Herbert_W]

My idea was to give the Goolock (and only him) a cantrip heal that is potentially life saving, but also risky.

Making a healing cantrip that's risky for the target could lead to conflict. When a character dies due to bad rolls, the player can blame the dice. If a character dies because another player chose to use a risky spell, especially if there are less risky options, then that could be grounds for resentment.

This really depends on your table though.

If you want a lifesaving cantrip, you could easily make this just a lifesaving cantrip. Letting the target automatically succeed on a single death roll, or deferring death rolls for some number of rounds, or simply duplicating spare the dying are all ways that this could be accomplished without granting players unlimited healing.

Alternatively, you could lean in to the theme of healing at a price by having the spell grant temporary HP while also causing a level of exhaustion. (To prevent abuse, anything that removes the exhaustion should also remove the temporary HP.)

[MoiMagnus]

Unfortunately, there isn't really a mechanism in the game saying this spell can only be cast in combat.

You could go with "Can only be cast if the target lost HP the round prior. Cannot heal more HP than the number of HP lost the round prior."

[Herbert_W]

You could go with "Can only be cast if the target lost HP the round prior. Cannot heal more HP than the number of HP lost the round prior."

I like what you're trying to do here, but that wording is abusable. All that I'd need to do is arrange to loose some HP (that's easy; I can just stab myself) and then have this cantrip cast on me multiple times before the round ends. Each casting restores HP up to a maximum of what I just lost, so between them all I can regain more than I loose each round. It's also weird that, with your wording, I couldn't restore HP lost earlier in the same round.

A better wording would be "This can only restore HP up to a maximum of what the character had at the end of their last turn."

[MoiMagnus]

I like what you're trying to do here, but that wording is abusable. All that I'd need to do is arrange to loose some HP (that's easy; I can just stab myself) and then have this cantrip cast on me multiple times before the round ends. Each casting restores HP up to a maximum of what I just lost, so between them all I can regain more than I loose each round. It's also weird that, with your wording, I couldn't restore HP lost earlier in the same round.

A better wording would be "This can only restore HP up to a maximum of what the character had at the end of their last turn."

Indeed. Better wording.

[LibraryOgre]

Personally, I think "Can spend a HD, roll the die, and recover that number of HP" is just fine for a cantrip. No need to add a possible penalty... you're already imposing a resource cost and, as others pointed out, abilities which improve short rest healing don't help.

[Kane0]

Seconded

10char

[saucerhead]

Thanks again for all the responses. I reworded the Wyrd Reconstruction cantrip to heal 1d8-1 hp with the Hit Dice requirement and removed the saving throw and any bleeding damage. The player decided not to take it, but I did come up with a couple other ideas I am working on. Any thoughts would be welcome. Thanks.

Daemon’s Pull - cantrip
1 action, 30ft range, V, S, Instant
You create a rift in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you. A huge tentacle emerges and automatically hits a creature you can see within range who takes 1d4 psychic damage. The target must immediately make a strength save or be pulled all the way to the spot of the rift. Anyone in the straight line path of the tentacle must also successfully make a dexterity save or take 1d4 psychic damage. Any objects not worn or held in the path take 4d4 bludgeoning damage. The spell’s damage to anything affected increases by 2d4 when you reach 5th level, another 2d4 at 11th level and another 2d4 at 17th level.

Hands from the Abyss - Cantrip
1 action, 60ft range, V, S, Concentration up to 1 min.
You create a 5ft rift on the ground that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the rift fills with glowing translucent tentacles. Any creature in the rift’s space when you cast the spell must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 force damage and is restrained. A creature must also make a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 force damage and be restrained when it moves into the rift's space for the first time on a turn. The spell's damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

[JNAProductions]

Daemon's Pull does a good damage type, and while it starts at 1d4, it is autohit. It can also hit multiple targets. Plus it scales by 2d4, so it ends at 7d4 damage (17.5 on average) which is not as good as a Firebolt, but it can hit multiple targets, has a better damage type, and autohits. It's OP.

Hands From The Abyss is also far too good-Restrained is a potent condition. And this just restrains on a failed save with no way to get out.

[saucerhead]

Daemon's Pull does a good damage type, and while it starts at 1d4, it is autohit. It can also hit multiple targets. Plus it scales by 2d4, so it ends at 7d4 damage (17.5 on average) which is not as good as a Firebolt, but it can hit multiple targets, has a better damage type, and autohits. It's OP.

Hands From The Abyss is also far too good-Restrained is a potent condition. And this just restrains on a failed save with no way to get out.

Yep. Daemon's Pull auto hits for 2.5 damage (on average) until level 5 when it jumps to a whopping 9.5 damage. Everyone else gets a save to avoid this puny damage. But "OP"?

Hands from the Abyss does, however, need a way to escape. How about anyone restrained in the tentacles gets to make another dex save, or an acrobatics or athletics roll, to escape at the start their next turn?

[JNAProductions]

Yep. Daemon's Pull auto hits for 2.5 damage (on average) until level 5 when it jumps to a whopping 9.5 damage. Everyone else gets a save to avoid this puny damage. But "OP"?

Hands from the Abyss does, however, need a way to escape. How about anyone restrained in the tentacles gets to make another dex save, or an acrobatics or athletics roll, to escape at the start their next turn?

7.5 damage, actually.

But compare that to a Firebolt: Average of 11 damage. Average hit rate is around 65% (8+ to-hit) which means that a Firebolt averages to 7.15 damage. Less damage, single target, worse damage type.

[saucerhead]

You are correct 7.5 not 9.5 damage.

Thanks for the input, 7.5 compared to firebolt's 7.15 means it is pretty close. I don't want to make it a clone of firebolt, but make something inspired by the original Darkest Dungeon for the character and my campaign.