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View Full Version : DM Help System Advice: Fantasy Asia meets Superheroes



Gengy
2021-04-26, 10:41 AM
Hi folks!

I've had a campaign/story idea rattling around in my head for a while now, but I've been struggling to find a (non-Fate) system that could handle my needs and requirements.

Setting: Superheroes / Supervillians go through their "normal" wacky shenanigans, and end up getting shunted to a different dimension. Happens all the time, right? Except, this time, they end up in a Wuxia/Cultivation (Fantasy Asia) dimension, like one might find in a Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon type of movie. Cultivation novels (generally) focus a lot on growing power through meditation, martial arts, and mystical stuff. Various flavors exist, but if you've never encountered this before, think of it like DnD but everyone plays Monk and just chooses different sub-classes.

Think you got it? Cool.

What I'm looking for is advice on Systems that can support both your typical "Superman" or "Ironman" and also "Kung Fu Hustle". I'd prefer something that I can access online easily, and that is also accessible to my possible future players.

Some caveats:


(1) Yes, FATE and similar style "freeform" systems work great for this kind of mish-mash, but as I'm trying to convince some (socially distant) real life friends who like a less freeform system, I'm looking for something a bit more number crunchy...
(2) ...but not too number crunchy. About as complicated as 3.5e PhB without all the supplements is probably as "difficult" as I want to get right now. After all, I have to read and understand it, lol. I don't want to have to try and spend 20 hours to make a single Star Trek RPG character (look it up, one of the editions/versions is... sub-optimal)
(edit) Ideally, a player should be able to have the option to play either a Superpowered character or a Cultivation character, with the (possibly homebrewed?) benefit of a Superpowered character being strong early on but the Cultivator being much more likely to be stronger later (assuming the correct character choices are made).

Thank you to anyone who spent the time reading this, and thank you even more if you actually have an idea for a System I can use!

Batcathat
2021-04-26, 10:48 AM
Maybe Mutants & Masteminds? Man, it feels like I always suggest that when someone asks for a system... It's built for superheroes (and personally I find it's just about the right amount of crunch, but YMMV obviously) but I think it could handle Wuxia too. Since you use the same points for everything in a character, a build that's light on super powers could instead invest in skills, for example. Though I must admit I'm not very familiar with the genre (I've seen Crouching Tiger, but that's about it) so I can't promise it's a great fit.

Gengy
2021-04-26, 10:53 AM
Maybe Mutants & Masteminds? Man, it feels like I always suggest that when someone asks for a system... It's built for superheroes (and personally I find it's just about the right amount of crunch, but YMMV obviously) but I think it could handle Wuxia too. Since you use the same points for everything in a character, a build that's light on super powers could instead invest in skills, for example. Though I must admit I'm not very familiar with the genre (I've seen Crouching Tiger, but that's about it) so I can't promise it's a great fit.

I did think of M&M and have played it a couple times, over a decade ago. The editions that I played back then would certainly work for the Superhero part of the equation, but I feel like it would do the Cultivation side a disservice. It would probably work if I was having Cultivators come into a Superhero dimension, but it's more... the reverse, so while I'm not discounting the suggestion, I personally don't feel that it's a good fit. Unless the newer editions of the game (if they exist? Not sure, haven't bothered to google) got a larger martial arts mixed with magic update.

Batcathat
2021-04-26, 11:02 AM
Unless the newer editions of the game (if they exist? Not sure, haven't bothered to google) got a larger martial arts mixed with magic update.

The 3rd edition came out in 2011, so that's probably after you played, but I haven't played any of the earlier editions so I can't say much about the differences. I know there are both martial artists and magicians among the pre-generated archetypes and I think they have power profiles (basically extra content for different kinds of powers) for both too, so there's some focus on it but I don't know if it's enough for your needs.

Faily
2021-04-26, 11:43 AM
Depending on the power-level, Feng Shui (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_(role-playing_game)) might be of interest to you?

KaussH
2021-04-26, 12:13 PM
Street fighter with some mods.
Savage worlds, just mix a hero sourcebook and a martial arts one.

Gurps, same as above, mix and match.

Hero system could do it too..

KaussH
2021-04-26, 12:19 PM
Low power supers.. pulp cuthulu...

White wolf adventure or abhorrent...

JeenLeen
2021-04-26, 12:33 PM
Look up Grod the Giant's STARs system. I haven't played it recently enough to remember, but it might work for you.
I did read your objections to M&M, but...



(2) ...but not too number crunchy. About as complicated as 3.5e PhB without all the supplements is probably as "difficult" as I want to get right now. After all, I have to read and understand it, lol. I don't want to have to try and spend 20 hours to make a single Star Trek RPG character (look it up, one of the editions/versions is... sub-optimal)


I could see M&M being the right level of crunchy.
Or STARS. Or, if you can get it work mechanically, a World of Darkness-type setting.


Ideally, a player should be able to have the option to play either a Superpowered character or a Cultivation character, with the (possibly homebrewed?) benefit of a Superpowered character being strong early on but the Cultivator being much more likely to be stronger later (assuming the correct character choices are made).

M&M could do this as supers start at a higher PL but gain points slower, whereas Cultivators start lower and gain faster (including gaining PL, perhaps).
Most any system could emulate this, though, by effectively having the supers start with more points (if WoD-based) but growing slower. If you can find a mod that makes it work for your group mechanically, I think World of Darkness Mage could be pretty cool, in that you can do most anything and it's built on what you do, not how you do it, mechanically, so the same underlying mechanics could work for a super or a martial artist. There's a "supertech"/mad scientist version of nWod I think called Genius: the Transgression. Fan-made and you should be able to find it free online. It'd be more work to refluff it as "powers just are"/"martial artist", but it could be doable to get the same result as oWoD and might be cleaner mechanically than oWoD. I guess it's a question of would it be more work to make oWoD rules consistent and friendly, or more work to refluff the nWoD. (There is also a nWoD Mage, but I'm not sure if it'd work as well. It might.)

However, keep in mind that this only matters if a game lasts long enough. Make sure your players understand the pros and cons and would find this fun.

Sparky McDibben
2021-04-26, 04:21 PM
Maybe try Exalted?

Lord Raziere
2021-04-26, 05:39 PM
What exactly is the difference between a cultivation character and superhero character that you insist on the divide in this setting?

superheroes are a very broad concept, there are superheroes in comic books that are martial arts and even wield chi. unless you explain how they're different, it seems very arbitrary to me and I can't figure out what you want unless I know what the reasoning is.

Gengy
2021-04-26, 08:55 PM
Depending on the power-level, Feng Shui (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_(role-playing_game)) might be of interest to you?

Ooooo. I will be looking into this. Good suggestion.


Street fighter with some mods.
Savage worlds, just mix a hero sourcebook and a martial arts one.

Gurps, same as above, mix and match.

Hero system could do it too..


Low power supers.. pulp cuthulu...

White wolf adventure or abhorrent...

Did not know there was a Street Fighter TTRPG. I am, however, not surprised. And you are correct, it might do the trick. I'll look into it.

Savage Worlds: Heard of it before, never played it. The fact that there's a hero and martial arts source book does attract me to it.

Gurps: No offense to Gurps fans... but I'm not one. If you like the System? Great. Please, enjoy! I'll be... at a different table.

Not sure which Hero system you mean...?

The rest don't feel like that are a good fit, though I appreciate the suggestions!


Look up Grod the Giant's STARs system. I haven't played it recently enough to remember, but it might work for you.
I did read your objections to M&M, but...

I could see M&M being the right level of crunchy.
Or STARS. Or, if you can get it work mechanically, a World of Darkness-type setting.

M&M could do this as supers start at a higher PL but gain points slower, whereas Cultivators start lower and gain faster (including gaining PL, perhaps).
Most any system could emulate this, though, by effectively having the supers start with more points (if WoD-based) but growing slower. If you can find a mod that makes it work for your group mechanically, I think World of Darkness Mage could be pretty cool, in that you can do most anything and it's built on what you do, not how you do it, mechanically, so the same underlying mechanics could work for a super or a martial artist. There's a "supertech"/mad scientist version of nWod I think called Genius: the Transgression. Fan-made and you should be able to find it free online. It'd be more work to refluff it as "powers just are"/"martial artist", but it could be doable to get the same result as oWoD and might be cleaner mechanically than oWoD. I guess it's a question of would it be more work to make oWoD rules consistent and friendly, or more work to refluff the nWoD. (There is also a nWoD Mage, but I'm not sure if it'd work as well. It might.)

However, keep in mind that this only matters if a game lasts long enough. Make sure your players understand the pros and cons and would find this fun.

I'll look into STARs, thanks!

M&M: Pro, I've played it before. Con, so has my table, and they don't enjoy it as much as I do. /shrug I'm not discounting your excellent points, especially related to point start/gain. I'd just need to get them to agree :smallsigh: I have a feeling if I made it this way, I wouldn't get the appropriate mix of Supers and Cultivators. I'd just get Supers, because instant gratification beats months of effort for my otherwise excellent group of gamers.


Maybe try Exalted?

I actually did consider Exalted. It does have the flavor I'm looking for in a Cultivation based TTRPG. But then it has the (somewhat) reverse problem of Mutants and Masterminds... fitting Superpowered persons into the setting.


What exactly is the difference between a cultivation character and superhero character that you insist on the divide in this setting?

superheroes are a very broad concept, there are superheroes in comic books that are martial arts and even wield chi. unless you explain how they're different, it seems very arbitrary to me and I can't figure out what you want unless I know what the reasoning is.

It comes down to style, I suppose. East meets west. It's a cultural clash. The entire premise is "What if Superman was in Kung Fu Hustle?"

All of the Man of Steel's superpowers would be (hilariously?) confused for "Secret Mystical Techniques". Faster than a speeding bullet? Must be the Flow Like Air technique! More powerful than a locomotive? He must have the Strength of Mountains skill! Can deflect projectiles off his skin? Body like Iron! (Names made up, to get the point across)

So the delineation is that a Superpowered individual would have their (mostly) full skill set, while a Cultivator has the 'home field advantage' but has to follow the laws of cultivation to gain power.

To put it in 3.5 DnD terms, a Fighter is strong in early levels, and a Wizard is squishy. The moment the Wizard gets Fireball is when the Fighter starts not being as powerful (but still remains relevant for a while yet).

As other people have mentioned, I can do this with some homebrew rules changes so that the Supers get a better start and a slower progression, compared to the Cultivators whom get a slower start, but a faster progression. Yet, I need a setting that can help me accommodate both Spiderman as a character with all his mutant powers, and Aang from the Last Avatar. Some of the systems people have mentioned can do that, but I'm being super picky, because I then have to find a nice balance that won't make my Cultivators feel too weak at the start.

Lord Raziere
2021-04-26, 11:19 PM
It comes down to style, I suppose. East meets west. It's a cultural clash. The entire premise is "What if Superman was in Kung Fu Hustle?"

All of the Man of Steel's superpowers would be (hilariously?) confused for "Secret Mystical Techniques". Faster than a speeding bullet? Must be the Flow Like Air technique! More powerful than a locomotive? He must have the Strength of Mountains skill! Can deflect projectiles off his skin? Body like Iron! (Names made up, to get the point across)

So the delineation is that a Superpowered individual would have their (mostly) full skill set, while a Cultivator has the 'home field advantage' but has to follow the laws of cultivation to gain power.

To put it in 3.5 DnD terms, a Fighter is strong in early levels, and a Wizard is squishy. The moment the Wizard gets Fireball is when the Fighter starts not being as powerful (but still remains relevant for a while yet).

As other people have mentioned, I can do this with some homebrew rules changes so that the Supers get a better start and a slower progression, compared to the Cultivators whom get a slower start, but a faster progression. Yet, I need a setting that can help me accommodate both Spiderman as a character with all his mutant powers, and Aang from the Last Avatar. Some of the systems people have mentioned can do that, but I'm being super picky, because I then have to find a nice balance that won't make my Cultivators feel too weak at the start.

So its a progression thing? Agh. that pretty much cuts out most systems I can think of that can be universal enough to make both martial artists and supers. most universal systems aren't like DnD with lots of cumbersome progression stuff.

like if that wasn't the intended difference I'd recommend M&M because the cultivators would just be PL8, the supers PL10, thus reflecting how one's weaker than the other and it wouldn't be THAT big of a difference and the cultivators would get some things to make up for it reflect its their turf and you could just give power points to make the cultivators get up to PL10 at some point. but I don't know any system that can be universal enough to both have supers and cultivators while also having a level system like you seem to want.

well except maybe Gurps could emulate that somehow, but you just said you don't want/like that, so that won't work.

another possible recommendation and this is lesser known, but perhaps try Strands of Fate? its like but much crunchier to handle lots of different power levels.

while if you like Exalted, but think its too crunchy and limited, I could recommend you Godbound. I think its Gift system could replicate superpowers very well, and it has a separate system for martial arts to delineate the difference.
supers would be a godbound, and the cultivators would be heroic mortals with martial Strifes.

other that I guess its possible that some anime-inspired system like BESM could make it work? maybe? I haven't read my books enough to say for sure?

but your searching for something oddly general yet specific.

KaussH
2021-04-27, 05:14 AM
Hero system is in fact the name. The just super hero part is often called champions, but hero system is the base game.

Martin Greywolf
2021-04-27, 10:38 AM
L5R has a d20 version, you could combine that with a d20 superheroes thing of your choice.

Thrudd
2021-04-27, 06:35 PM
I think this premise is missing something. For one, how long do you expect a campaign to last, and how many campaigns do you think you'll be able to get through? The thing with Old D&D style "balance" you're talking about is that it only really works over long periods of time. For a game that's only going to last a few sessions, or even a few months, few people will want to play the kung fu student next to superman. For the game that will go long term guaranteed (good luck), nobody will want to be capped out.

In terms of world building, are the cultivators normal people? Or do they have special "qi" that they are born with that enables their powers? If cultivation powers are possible for anyone with training, then there's nothing stopping supers from training and becoming even more powerful, capping or limiting their progression makes no sense.

If the cultivators have a unique inborn power source, then how are they different than the supers exactly? They are just supers who haven't yet discovered their full potential (level 1 vs level 10 or whatever). This being the case, not many players would choose to start at level 1 if they can start at level 10, unless everyone else is starting at 1.

If the game is short term, to explain why the supers wont have time to achieve cultivation, then the players playing cultivators will need to start out somewhere close to the same power level as the supers, which again means there really isn't any difference, they are just supers with different powers.

If the game is really just about the players giving different flavors to their actions depending on their power source, then I'd think any superhero system or generic system with superhero supplements will work. Comedy ensues from super strong guy watching the martial artist fly around and summon magic sword energy only to have the attack bounce off his chest, then he swats them across the room like fly. Or super pyro mutant attacks with a blast of fire, only to have tai chi master pull a "Shaolin Soccer" and redirect it into a ball and throw it back, etc.

Grod_The_Giant
2021-05-01, 10:19 PM
I actually did consider Exalted. It does have the flavor I'm looking for in a Cultivation based TTRPG. But then it has the (somewhat) reverse problem of Mutants and Masterminds... fitting Superpowered persons into the setting.
Exalted. Everything you've said about the themes and powers of your game are 100% Exalted (or at least a simplified knockoff like Godbound). Solars, the default player characters, are literally people with crazy superpowers popping up out of nowhere and changing the world. You could take transplant the Avengers directly from the MCU to Creation and the only way the campaign would be different than a normal circle of Solars would be the fish-out-of-water thematics.

And hell, 3e even sort of has a superpower-vs-cultivation experience mechanic. Characters earn regular xp for participating in sessions, but they also get "Solar experience" for good roleplaying that can be spent on anything EXCEPT standard Charms. You could declare that supers get... say 7xp and 3sxp per session, whereas cultivation characters get 3xp/7sxp. (The normal expectation is 5 of each type). Because of the way mechanics work out, characters built with more solar experience will rely more on martial arts, sorcery, and magical artifacts, whereas mostly-standard-xp characters will invest heavily in "I do the thing REALLY good" Charms.

Couple that with a few tweaks to how motes (basically mana) and anima work, to add a little more distinctions between the two, and you're golden.

The downside of using Exalted is that it's a crunchy-ass system, easily moreso than 3.5 d&d. The combat engine is unique and complicated, there are exact rules for all sorts of social interactions and situational stuff, and characters START with 15 sort-of-like-spells.

----

On an unrelated note, I'd be cautious about the "supers start strong but cultivation characters end strong" thing. D&D tried to balance casters that way for a long time and it's never worked that well. Instead, I'd try for something like "supers are generalists with simple in-your-face powers, and cultivation characters are specialists whose powers are quirky but extremely effective when used correctly."

Bohandas
2021-05-25, 10:55 AM
Toon has a Kung-Fu setting and a Superheroes setting that you could mash together