Mustrum Ridcully VS Dark Willow

[Kaelaroth]

Mustrum Ridcully (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridcully), Archchancellor of the Wizards, attacking Dark Willow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Rosenberg), prior to when she absorbed the powers of the coven (and therefore had the power to end the world), yet when she could flay Warren alive.

Who do you think would win? :smallconfused:

[Revlid]

On Discworld? Willow is eaten by the denizens of the Dungeon Dimensions for her vast overuse of magic.
Ridcully wins.

In the Buffy-verse? Willow goes on a rant and, whilst she is distracted, Ridcully smashes her over the head with two metres of solid oak with a metal knob on the end. :smallbiggrin:
Ridcully wins.

[dehro]

"I call upon you, oh powers of the.." TOING! (Sound of a Burleigh & Stronginthearm crossbow going of)

[Serenity]

Sorry, I'm not giving Ridcully the advantage for physical force, since that's something Team Buffy had in spades. Dark Willow has the magical power to do basically whatever she wants, even before draining Giles. Ridcully gets in her way, he is going to be run over by a truck, generally slammed around and drained of his magic.

Also, I don't think Discworld magic is as powerful as everyone claims. The one book in which they're seriously dangerous for their magic is when they got a huge power boost from the Sourcerer. In other cases, its established that one fireball is enough that they need to rest afterwards.

[dehro]

Sorry, I'm not giving Ridcully the advantage for physical force, since that's something Team Buffy had in spades. Dark Willow has the magical power to do basically whatever she wants, even before draining Giles. Ridcully gets in her way, he is going to be run over by a truck, generally slammed around and drained of his magic.

Also, I don't think Discworld magic is as powerful as everyone claims. The one book in which they're seriously dangerous for their magic is when they got a huge power boost from the Sourcerer. In other cases, its established that one fireball is enough that they need to rest afterwards.
true..but then again..one fireball is enough.
no, I'm obviously not treating ths Vs with much more than the humor that
any pratchett related thread should not be deprived of.

I must say I haven't watched much buffy related material or episodes...and I love pratchett just to much not to give him an automatic win..
but...do we really feel for analyzing every single available spell or instance where the one or the other shows some insight or ability?
even worse..do we need to go over reaction times and evalutating how powerfull one or the other magic is?
One magic system is based on a lot of interaction with the world of the "dark side and random supernatural creatures" not forgetting a lot of shiny stuff for the sake of the CG department pushing for stuff that looks cool..the other is based on 5 meals a day with snacks in between, and displaying as little magic as is possible, but with a strong hint of "other alternatives".

It's giving me a headache already..

[Serenity]

If the fireball hits, which isn't a guarantee. Even before her initial Dark Willow power boosts, Willow had enough magical power that she could impede a Hellgod, albeit that always turned out very draining. She has access to a huge variety of magic which she can use almost with impunity, can easily magic herself up to be the physical equal of the Slayer, and has bested every obstacle thrown in her way. Many of her spells can be cast with no more than a gesture, and even the ones that require an incantation are little more than a sentence.

I adore Pratchett, but I've got to give the advantage to the gal going all Dark Phoenix.

[Green Bean]

If the fireball hits, which isn't a guarantee.

Actually, in the Discworld, spells go where you want them, with no need for all that mucking about with the whole 'aiming' business.

[Cruxador]

...

Also, I don't think Discworld magic is as powerful as everyone claims. The one book in which they're seriously dangerous for their magic is when they got a huge power boost from the Sourcerer. In other cases, its established that one fireball is enough that they need to rest afterwards.

While that has been said more than once, it seems to be a serious hyperbole. If I recall correctly, in Reaper Man, the Dean kicks some serious shopping cart ... handle. He has plenty of fireballs to hurl. And, as has already been said, it only takes one, and he doesn't need to bother with aiming. Naturally, there can be some defense against a fireball, but there can be some defense against anything.

[Rutee]

Well, this is curious. Now, I don't know anything about discworld, so I was just going to read, but what's this nonsense about not aiming? Does the spell instantly generate where you want? And if so, how is that terribly different from consciously dodging bullets (For example; I don't believe Dark Willow could do /that/, but it's been a while).

[Duke Malagigi]

Well, this is curious. Now, I don't know anything about discworld, so I was just going to read, but what's this nonsense about not aiming? Does the spell instantly generate where you want? And if so, how is that terribly different from consciously dodging bullets (For example; I don't believe Dark Willow could do /that/, but it's been a while).

Simple, on Discworld when you cast a missile spell you generate then launch the spell, but with a 100% hit rate. The spell unerringly hit its target unless something gets in the way. Discworld spells are auto-aiming.

[Rutee]

Auto-Aiming != Auto-hit though. It relieves the burden on the caster, but it doesn't seem to preclude exceptional agility from allowing one to dodge the spell. Again, I don't think it applies to the fight, but I /am/ curious about this in general.

[Serenity]

Dark Willow does have teleportation ability, which is fairly instantaneous in departure, though not in arrival. Also, prior to going Dark, barrier spells were a specialty, and presumably her evil power boost made those more powerful as well.

[Seraph]

Auto-Aiming != Auto-hit though. It relieves the burden on the caster, but it doesn't seem to preclude exceptional agility from allowing one to dodge the spell. Again, I don't think it applies to the fight, but I /am/ curious about this in general.

I dont think you get it. in the discworld, all attack spells are magic missile. you can not dodge them. there is no dodging involved. if you move, it follows you.

[Green Bean]

Auto-Aiming != Auto-hit though. It relieves the burden on the caster, but it doesn't seem to preclude exceptional agility from allowing one to dodge the spell. Again, I don't think it applies to the fight, but I /am/ curious about this in general.

Of course, while you could possibly dodge a fireball, there are plenty of instantaneous spells available. There's no ray or energy ball when a wizard turns someone into a frog.

[Dervag]

Sorry, I'm not giving Ridcully the advantage for physical force, since that's something Team Buffy had in spades. Dark Willow has the magical power to do basically whatever she wants, even before draining Giles. Ridcully gets in her way, he is going to be run over by a truck, generally slammed around and drained of his magic.Ridcully, like all the Discworld wizards, had really really strong wards up. Even Dark Willow would have had trouble getting past them, I think. I mean sure she could easily kill unwarded people by the application of magic (such as Warren). But Ridcully could effectively do the same (he once turned a bandit into a pumpkin, which counts as a kill in my book because destroying a pumpkin is so easy).

On the Discworld, wizards put most of their effort and strength into constructing defensive wards around themselves. They make relatively little use of attack magic, both because it has dangerous and unpredictable side effects and because of the risk of opening a portal to the Dungeon Dimensions. However, unless we assume that Discworld magic is intrinsically more or less powerful than Buffyverse magic (which would imbalance the battle and probably be a bad assumption), Dark Willow would have trouble attacking Ridcully effectively. Physical force might well prove decisive.


Also, I don't think Discworld magic is as powerful as everyone claims. The one book in which they're seriously dangerous for their magic is when they got a huge power boost from the Sourcerer. In other cases, its established that one fireball is enough that they need to rest afterwards.In Reaper Man, wizards use fireballs and other destructive magic repeatedly, against a horde of sentient shopping carts (it's a long story). They do eventually run out of energy, but "one fireball and he needs to lie down" is overstating the case. Note that it is a nonwizard who makes this observation (in Men at Arms, I believe).


She has access to a huge variety of magic which she can use almost with impunity, can easily magic herself up to be the physical equal of the Slayer, and has bested every obstacle thrown in her way. Many of her spells can be cast with no more than a gesture, and even the ones that require an incantation are little more than a sentence.The last applies to Pratchett magic too.


I adore Pratchett, but I've got to give the advantage to the gal going all Dark Phoenix.Again, it's really unclear how much magical power Ridcully has, since Discworld wizards hold almost all their power in reserve under almost all occasions.


Dark Willow does have teleportation ability, which is fairly instantaneous in departure, though not in arrival. Also, prior to going Dark, barrier spells were a specialty, and presumably her evil power boost made those more powerful as well.Ridcully has teleported too, although he has to exchange his mass with that off some other object to make it work, and his ability to do so accurately has limited range.

[Rutee]

I dont think you get it. in the discworld, all attack spells are magic missile. you can not dodge them. there is no dodging involved. if you move, it follows you.
I never bought Magic Missile being never-miss either, frankly. The gamer in me has had to trick too many tracking-anything into walls to ever buy something as Auto-hit on the basis of tracking you. Sorry, I know that's being a bit difficult, but I genuinely have trouble wrapping my head around the concept.

[Serenity]

Ridcully, like all the Discworld wizards, had really really strong wards up. Even Dark Willow would have had trouble getting past them, I think. I mean sure she could easily kill unwarded people by the application of magic (such as Warren). But Ridcully could effectively do the same (he once turned a bandit into a pumpkin, which counts as a kill in my book because destroying a pumpkin is so easy).

On the Discworld, wizards put most of their effort and strength into constructing defensive wards around themselves. They make relatively little use of attack magic, both because it has dangerous and unpredictable side effects and because of the risk of opening a portal to the Dungeon Dimensions. However, unless we assume that Discworld magic is intrinsically more or less powerful than Buffyverse magic (which would imbalance the battle and probably be a bad assumption), Dark Willow would have trouble attacking Ridcully effectively. Physical force might well prove decisive.

Fair enough, but Willow has used her magic to make herself a physical match for the Slayer, who easily outclasses the Archchancellor in strength.


In Reaper Man, wizards use fireballs and other destructive magic repeatedly, against a horde of sentient shopping carts (it's a long story). They do eventually run out of energy, but "one fireball and he needs to lie down" is overstating the case. Note that it is a nonwizard who makes this observation (in Men at Arms, I believe).

Yeah, Vimes. The point was more directed at the idea that's popped up in several other Discworld Vs. Threads that Discworld wizards are the gods of magic based on the evidence of Sourcerer, when it's rather clear that without the boost Coin brought they're significantly weaker. I'd still say that Willow's power boost gives her more staying power in using her magic than Ridcully, but that's admittedly speculative. She did absorb all the power and dark magic of the largest collection of magic books in Sunnydale.


The last applies to Pratchett magic too.

So their casting times are relatively equal, meaning its unlikely Ridcully gets to catch Willow defenseless while she's trying to cast.


Again, it's really unclear how much magical power Ridcully has, since Discworld wizards hold almost all their power in reserve under almost all occasions.

I'm certainly not saying it won't be a close fight. Mustrum is a wily, tough fellow, but Willow is a magical juggernaut.


Ridcully has teleported too, although he has to exchange his mass with that off some other object to make it work, and his ability to do so accurately has limited range.

Advantage Willow, in this case, then. Hers is quicker, not needing any figuring, and therefore better for dodging in combat.

[....]

Besides the fact that Ridcully would be more likely to shoot her in the throat with a crossbow while she was whining about her dead g/f...

Its been proven that Discworld wizards can create singularities, IE: the thing that makes a black hole suck.

Bye bye Willow.

[dehro]

the real trouble with wizard-discworld magic is the comedic effect rule...
enchantments are self-aiming...but if there's a chance for them to do something funny, it's granted that that will happen in place of actual effectiveness.
let's just hope that during the confrontation no chicken wanders by, and no duck flies overhead...because they are the ideal targets for stray comic-fireballs...

[Dervag]

Fair enough, but Willow has used her magic to make herself a physical match for the Slayer, who easily outclasses the Archchancellor in strength. That's quite plausible. I'm not saying that Ridcully would win on physical force. On the other hand, he might well surprise Dark Willow with physical force, and possibly kill her in that way. Dark Willow resorted to physical force because she needed it to fight Buffy, who would otherwise kick her butt before she could stop her with magic (I think). Ridcully resorts to physical force first, whenever it seems like a viable option.


Yeah, Vimes. The point was more directed at the idea that's popped up in several other Discworld Vs. Threads that Discworld wizards are the gods of magic based on the evidence of Sourcerer, when it's rather clear that without the boost Coin brought they're significantly weaker. I'd still say that Willow's power boost gives her more staying power in using her magic than Ridcully, but that's admittedly speculative. She did absorb all the power and dark magic of the largest collection of magic books in Sunnydale.I wonder what would happen if she tried to absorb the Library at Unseen University.

I suspect it would absorb her back. Some of those books are really really nasty.


So their casting times are relatively equal, meaning its unlikely Ridcully gets to catch Willow defenseless while she's trying to cast.Or vice versa.


Advantage Willow, in this case, then. Hers is quicker, not needing any figuring, and therefore better for dodging in combat.Did she ever use it for tactical dodging?