What breaks with personal spells in potions?

[Zaq]

By RAW, you cannot make a personal-only spell into a potion.

The design goal behind this, I imagine, is to prevent non-spellcasters from getting access to those scary, scary personal-only buffs. (Dunno if this was ever confirmed by an interview or anything, but that seems like a pretty logical interpretation, I would hazard.)

To be honest, I think this rule is kind of dumb and doesn't particularly make the game better. Personal-only buffs often (though by no means always) have something cool that differentiates them from equal-level targetable buffs on the same list, but potions are clunky: they're expensive, they usually provoke to use them, they usually have minimum CL, they can't be higher than 3rd level, and so on. (Plus, it weirds me out every single time I remember that see invisibility is personal-only and therefore there's no potions of see invisibility. I've always been baselessly convinced that they exist.)

So, a thought experiment: what's the worst that would happen if it became possible to simply make/buy potions of personal-only spells just as easily as of spells that are currently (by RAW) potion-legal? Would that break anything at all?

Two stipulations:
Let's leave metamagic out of the equation even if you happen to have some way of easily (or not so easily) applying it to a potion. That's an edge case at best. At worse, the problem is with the metamagic and not the spell/potion. This includes, but is not limited to, Sanctum Spell.
Let's limit it to standard potions of 3rd level spells or lower. I know that master alchemist is a thing and I don't care; if it were to cause problems (which, to be honest, I doubt it would), those problems would be with the spells rather than on the ability to get the effects on someone who isn't a full caster.

But with those guidelines in place, how badly would you be able to mess things up even if the rogue could chug a potion of see invisibility or the fighter could spend gold and actions getting an alter self effect? I guess the Delay Potion feat in Complete Mage adds some action economy to an enterprising player who prepares in advance, but honestly? Good for them if they do that. They're spending a precious feat, spending gold, and thinking ahead about which potion they're going to want to have as a swift action next encounter. They SHOULD benefit. Oh, and sure, there's the spell quick potion, which would let a caster give a personal-only buff to an ally without even spending gold! But at the cost of an additional spell slot, at a speed too slow to do in combat, and still subject to the action economy and the 3rd level spell cap that we're used to. Not scared, sorry.

Otherwise, um, I can't think of too many 3rd level spells that would make the game weep if they were granted to a barbarian instead of only to a sorcerer. Glibness, maybe, but that's more a condemnation of the spell than of the ability of a non-bard to get it (besides, bards almost always have CHA and usually have good Bluff anyway, so glibness is already likely to do more damage--metaphorically speaking--in the hands of the bard than in the hands of the monk). True strike? Meh. A round the warblade spends drinking a true strike potion is a round that warblade isn't attacking. And it only works on one hit. In order to realistically do more with a two-round combo of true strike/PA for full than you'd do just attacking on two rounds, your PA has to be scary enough that it would be just as dangerous without spending a round buffing.

I suppose the fact that any choices associated with the spell are made at the time of the creation of the potion means disguise self would be for specific premade disguises when in potion form, but honestly that's pretty funny and that doesn't bother me.

I don't think anything would especially break and so I'm willing to say that this really isn't a key balancing factor. Potions are still clunky and expensive. But hey, this seems like an interesting topic of discussion, no? Can you think of any other balance-related concerns?

[Biggus]

I can see it would change the game a lot if Master Alchemists exist (Divine Power, Contingency, Time Stop, Shapechange) but with the level capped at 3rd I don't see how it'd make a huge difference.

[Zanos]

Knowing some of the design philosophy makes me think that someone thought about a potion of true strike and said there's no way a fighter should be able to get that.

Realistically, I don't think personal potions would cause any problems, as long as you were okay with those spells on gishes in the first place. Alter self is still powerful, and potions of it on characters who are actually built for melee combat would be very strong.

You can actually get something similar with spells or item creation feats from supplementary material. Delicate Disk and Skull Talismans come to mind.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dev thought process: 'It would allow mundanes access to magic! They might even start to think of themselves as useful! NOOOOOOO!'

[Kurald Galain]

The worst that would happen is that long-lasting buff effects like Longstrider change from niche protection for the druid, to something everybody uses all the time they want. That might be more balanced, but it does strike me as less interesting (as it reduces diversity between classes and characters).

Besides, if you're trying to make 3E balanced, you've got bigger fish to fry than this one.

[Gnaeus]

Our houserule splits the difference (no raw basis but we like it).

We allow personal ranged potions to be created specifically for a single target, by adding some body part (hair or blood) to the potion during the creation process. Thus, you can’t buy personal potions at magic mart, but the brew potions feat sucks a little less.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragon #349 has Chameleon Crafting, which allows personal effects in potions. It's not the main benefit, according to the way the feat is written, but it's definitely a benefit. After all, my light is the example potion given, and it's self-only. It does cost 1.5x the normal XP cost, though. Not like most potions cost much in the way of XP, but still. It also requires both casting and manifesting, which is less than ideal. I guess if you're of a psionic race with a psi-like ability or have a [host] feat?

[Maat Mons]

3.0 allowed potions of personal-range spells. The restriction was added in the 3.5 transition. Does anyone remember having before the change?

The 3.0 DMG had a Potion of See Invisibility. It was right on the table of example potions, along with Potion of Alter Self and Potion of Glibness.

Maybe this stemmed from the same mindset that made the developers deliberately nerf multiclass Rangers' Two-Weapon Fighting?

[Zanos]

Dragon #349 has Chameleon Crafting, which allows personal effects in potions. It's not the main benefit, according to the way the feat is written, but it's definitely a benefit. After all, my light is the example potion given, and it's self-only. It does cost 1.5x the normal XP cost, though. Not like most potions cost much in the way of XP, but still. It also requires both casting and manifesting, which is less than ideal. I guess if you're of a psionic race with a psi-like ability or have a [host] feat?
Yeah, the real benefit to chameleon crafting is being a wizard with divine spells and psionic powers. :smalltongue:

[zlefin]

It can't break anything THAT much; since almost anything that could be done with allowing personal range potions could already be done with scrolls and a good UMD check, since scrolls can already do personal range stuff.

As such, it can't create truly new exploits it only changes the cost/feasibility of using them. (outside of stuff like that PrC someone mentioned that messes with potions only),

[Thunder999]

It won't do anythng you couldn't already do better with a gish.

[Thurbane]

The Skull Talisman is essentially this: a one shot spell bestowed on the creature who activates it, without the restriction on personal only spell, or spell level limits.

WotC decided you need to pay more for these items than for equivalent potions.

[Fizban]

It would make it slightly easier to get personal-only spells, rather than using one of the myriad ways you can already get them. If the table's response is that everyone is already a spellcaster so just gish, then it will have almost zero effect.

A better question would be, what happens if personal-only spells are *actually* personal-only? The answer is still not much, because the spells and goals are still inconsistent.


3.0 allowed potions of personal-range spells. The restriction was added in the 3.5 transition. Does anyone remember having before the change?

The 3.0 DMG had a Potion of See Invisibility. It was right on the table of example potions, along with Potion of Alter Self and Potion of Glibness.
The Potion of Glibness was in fact the only way to get the effect, because it wasn't a spell (pretty clear they made it a spell as part of dumping Specific potions), and Alter Self in 3.0 was the 2nd level upgraded disguise spell with no illusion-saves, not mini-polymorph. In short, most of these effects had little obvious reason to be personal only to begin with, though there could have been flavor or more subtle intentions (the arcanist having to See Invis self, then Glitterdust foes for allies, vs the Cleric's Invis Purge for example). I hadn't noticed that the no personal potions rule was part of the 3.5 change, that's good to know.

And makes it abundantly clear why some spells seem to care about personal only, and other spells have it for no reason and don't seem to notice: because the game was originally designed with no such restriction. Some designers may have thought that needing Brew Potion to give certain people certain spells was a cool idea, others didn't even think about it, while others eventually decided that personal means personal, and suddenly the old spells don't make sense anymore, what a shock.



Maybe this stemmed from the same mindset that made the developers deliberately nerf multiclass Rangers' Two-Weapon Fighting?

I'd say the first and most obvious problem spell is Shield, but that's because Shield is completely busted to begin with whether it's personal or not (and the greater the protest that it's not, the greater the evidence that it apparently can't be lived without). Postulating that some incident with a TWF ranger, that might have involved the addition of the light armor restriction, could also be involved here? Yeah, a TWF character in heavy armor with Shield potions is all upside, no downside, I could easily see such a play resulting in both restrictions.

(Incidentally, the light armor restriction on Ranger TWF is actually kinda genius: it lets them get the feats without having the required Dex, making it easier to have Str for melee and Wis for your spells, but also ensures that the lack of Dex is still a penalty since you can't just wear heavy armor. It creates an intentionally low-defense character path similar to the Barbarian, without ever directly stating it.)


Just like material components and every other inconsistency in the spell (or any other) system, the best fix requires deciding what you actually want to happen, and then going through all the involved elements and making the changes to do that. If all you want to happen is "people don't worry about personal duration tags," then best answer will be getting rid of them entirely (and if there are actually some spells you think are supposed to be limited to personal only, making a list and not allowing those in items).

[Temotei]

I'd say the first and most obvious problem spell is Shield, but that's because Shield is completely busted to begin with whether it's personal or not (and the greater the protest that it's not, the greater the evidence that it apparently can't be lived without). Postulating that some incident with a TWF ranger, that might have involved the addition of the light armor restriction, could also be involved here? Yeah, a TWF character in heavy armor with Shield potions is all upside, no downside, I could easily see such a play resulting in both restrictions.

Shield only lasts 1 min./level, so a standard potion of shield lasts 1 minute. Not exactly easy to just walk around with it on all the time. If you wanted that, you'd pick up an animated shield when you could and be able to get a shield crystal at the same time (+1 animated heavy shield with a lesser crystal of deflection gives +8 AC vs. ranged attacks, for example, and it's always on). Granted, the animated shield costs quite a bit more, but unless you always know when a fight is coming, a potion of shield is going to be hard to time correctly unless you just chug them day in and day out (which isn't exactly cheap either).

I've never once heard of shield being too strong.

[Fizban]

Shield only lasts 1 min./level, so a standard potion of shield lasts 1 minute. Not exactly easy to just walk around with it on all the time. If you wanted that, you'd pick up an animated shield when you could and be able to get a shield crystal at the same time (+1 animated heavy shield with a lesser crystal of deflection gives +8 AC vs. ranged attacks, for example, and it's always on). Granted, the animated shield costs quite a bit more, but unless you always know when a fight is coming, a potion of shield is going to be hard to time correctly unless you just chug them day in and day out (which isn't exactly cheap either).
And yet, potions of enlarge person are often recommended. Or you would get them at cl 2 or 3. And yes, it should be obvious such a character wouldn't be doing so until it was affordable. And you're comparing a 50-150 gp potion of a 1st level spell, to a 10,000gp item. If that item is actually worth that much, for a lower bonus, it seems pretty obvious the spell is overpowered. Even a normal +2 heavy shield with full hand use and penalties is still a 4,000gp item. Magic Weapon gives only a +1 bonus, for the same min/level, not +2. Mage Armor's +4 is equivalent to light armor without penalty, but chain shirt only gives -2 and weights 25lbs. A tower shield gives -10 and weighs 45lbs. Shield of Faith is +2 which doesn't stack with a common item. Heck, even the Shieldbearer spell, for which you have to provide your own shield, only lasts 1 round/level and failed to gain any buffs in the SpC version. Shield is effectively an untyped +4 bonus to AC, but only for characters that are supposed to have low AC because they're not using a shield. It's a 1st level spell which apparently already provides the absolute maximum bonus of its type, no level-based scaling, no higher level versions. It's a direct slap in the face to a fundamental game mechanic and entire character archetype.

Actually, that's another funny point. The Animated Shield itself is justified only by the existence of the Shield spell. And yet, while Animated is added to the DMG in 3.5, as a 9,000gp minimum item- potions of Shield which were possible, are not.

My speculation has generally been that once they opened the bottle they knew they couldn't put it back in, and even so, the price of the Animated shield, the nerf, the prohibition on personal potion, and the near (though probably not totally) complete absence of published non-caster items which just cast shield for you, all add up to it not being something anyone but the caster is supposed to have.

I've never once heard of shield being too strong.
Well you have now. Though, if you're ever heard someone say actual material shields are bad because X/Y/Z is better, when X/Y/Z are the shield spell or things that use shield as a justification or even improve it, it should be pretty obvious (no miss chances don't count, because they stack with AC). The evidence is there, even if they're not looking at it that way.

The 3.0 version was even worse, looking it up. Though since it was a cover bonus it stacked with rather than replacing actual shields, and being limited to one direction is theoretically a weakness. They reduced it to +4, probably comparing it to the tower shield, but it became omnidirectional, and by making it a shield bonus that doesn't stack with an actual shield they just shifted it from overpowered for anyone, to overpowered for anyone who doesn't use a shield.

There is no metric by which you can compare the shield spell to something else, which supports the value given. I would bet that its older edition counterparts worked like the 3.0 version, which was carried forward as a legacy spell, then nerfed significantly- but only significant compared to how it already was, rather than looking for something in the current form of the game to compare it too.

The best you can possibly do is try to argue that it costs build resources. And leaving aside that proper gish builds are already a significant increase in overall power level, how much would a bad dipper spend? Well if you take say, 2 levels of wizard for 3-4 easy casts per day with 2 minute duration, that's -1 attack and -6 hit points and -1 feat, right? -1 for +1, 1 feat for +1, that's +2, +3 if you count the smidge of lost hp as worth another, you still have to find another phantom +1, maybe from the action cost. And this ignores ASF. Except the actual cost is half that, because wands are cheap and activate without fail and have no ASF, or zero levels because other items exist. And the actual cost of +4 stacking AC for a no-shielder not using shield, is about 4 feats.

Seriously, if anyone has an argument for how shield is not overpowered, which doesn't just boil down to "my game requires that power level/doesn't respect AC or actual shields," I'd love to hear it.

Back to the primary topic: Remember that one must assume the premise, so the availability of new potions is important. If nothing done with potions can ever be broken because potions are expensive, then the question would be moot, so obviously potions matter.

As for spells affected by allowing personal potions- Shield, True Strike, Alter Self, and See Invis have been mentioned. Throw on Hunter's Mercy and True Casting, and oddly, Invisibility Purge as well. Expeditious Retreat and some other spells give higher speed boosts because personal. Arcane Sight can now be accessed by non-casters, which could be significant. There are several versions of spells that much with range increments which are personal. False Life doesn't give many more hp than Aid, but it lasts far longer, and stacks, making it a useful potion. Mirrior Image is often run as a nigh-unstoppable defense, now it's a potion. Blink is also a potion, enabling wall bypass, sneak attack, and 1/2 AoE damage in the same convenient package for anyone. Sign gives a fat initiative bonus for cheap, while Primal Hunter does for long. Paladin brings in Silverbeard for another stacking +2 AC. Embrace the Wild is a 10 min/level Ranger 1 spell which grants Blindsense, so that's even cheaper now. And speaking of Druid/Ranger, Tojanida Sight means anyone can now be immune to flanking on demand.

Retaliation/aura/turret damage: Balor Nimbus is weirdly high grapple damage, I could see someone paying for that, and Body Blades has a longer duration while actually giving a bonus to resist grapple, and Death Armor is just straight retaliation (as is Ectoplasmic Feedback). All of these are 2nd level rather than the 4th used for Fire Shield (and there are more at 3rd too). Ring of Blades gives an aura of damage, and while Cloud of Knives is quite weak, a potion of Ev's Menacing Tentacles on a Str character is pretty huge at two free full Str attacks per round, including the round you drink.

Claws of Darkness is one of the sources of touch attacks and unlike Flame Blade or Spectral Weapon is personal rather than 0', so it could be potioned here, even if Wraithstrike is made useless by the standard action.

Paladins also bring Zeal, Find the Gap, and Righteous Fury. For the ability to move through foes, 1/round touch attack for multiple rounds, and a stacking +4 Str with a fat pile of temporary hit points. 3rd level potions are expensive, sure, but those are rare abilities, and as 3rd level spells are rather expensive on custom items. 750gp for the occasional use is a much easier bar to clear.

The Heart of X line is now potionable: while Air is meh, Water completely crushes a potion of Water Breathing by granting breath, and swim, and the Freedom of Movement discharge effect- a 4th level spell normally not available in potion form. Though it does compete with Scales of the Sealord, which is now also available and comes with a natural armor bonus to boot.

Meld into Stone and Tree Shape, normally quite esoteric defenses, could now be found on anyone.

The ease with which Speak with Animals, and Plants, can now be distributed, means that they should factor into NPC spying even more than they already should have.

Amusingly, Glibness becomes a legitimate potion again.

[Maat Mons]

If you want, you can get swift-action potions with no GP cost.

The Delay Potion feat (Complete Mage) lets you drink a potion ahead of time, and then gain the benefits sometime in the next few hours by spending a swift action. There might be other ways too. Like a hat with cupholders on the sides and two long, flexible straws. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was published somewhere.

And the Quick Potion spell (Spell Compendium) lets you create a potion in just one minute for no gp/xp cost. Potions created this way go bad in a few hours, but that doesn't matter if you know you're going to use them right away.



People recommend Potions of Enlarge Person? I've only seen people recommend wands of it. I mean, it's a little bit of a pain for a muggle to use a wand, since they have to take the Arcane Schooling feat, or take the Planar Touchstone feat, or invest a bunch of ranks into Use Magic Device. But once you've made the investment, wand charges are cheep, and wand chambers are handy.

[Gnaeus]

People recommend Potions of Enlarge Person? I've only seen people recommend wands of it. I mean, it's a little bit of a pain for a muggle to use a wand, since they have to take the Arcane Schooling feat, or take the Planar Touchstone feat, or invest a bunch of ranks into Use Magic Device. But once you've made the investment, wand charges are cheep, and wand chambers are handy.

You want the potion for the casting time. Potions are always a standard. Wands are the same action as the spell, which for enlarge person is a 1 round (as in worse than a full round action, a whole round of enemy actions you stand around chanting making yourself a target). It’s also why you may have potions of lesser restoration.

[Crake]

3.0 allowed potions of personal-range spells. The restriction was added in the 3.5 transition. Does anyone remember having before the change?

The 3.0 DMG had a Potion of See Invisibility. It was right on the table of example potions, along with Potion of Alter Self and Potion of Glibness.

Maybe this stemmed from the same mindset that made the developers deliberately nerf multiclass Rangers' Two-Weapon Fighting?

I suspect you meant polymorph self, considering alter self didn't exist in 3.0?

[Troacctid]

I suspect you meant polymorph self, considering alter self didn't exist in 3.0?
You're mistaken. It functioned differently, but it very much existed.