Minor incongruence?

[Cicciograna]

We know from Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) that he was able to find Lirian's Gate and Dorukan's Gate because he "found" the diary and deciphered the locations of the gate from it. The key fact is that he first found the diary, and then located the gates.

From SoD, however, we know that...

...Xykon and Redcloak staged their first assault to Lirian's Gate when Xykon was still human.


Yet in Serini's memory (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html), when Xykon attacked her he was an undead. She also specifies that it's in that very assault that he took her diary.

Shouldn't Xykon have been human in Serini's memory?


The only alternative I can think of is that somehow Redcloak already knew the location of Lirian's Gate (and thus, when Xykon says that "he deciphered the location of that gate", he's just taking undue credit for it), and then Xykon used the knowledge of that location as a key to break the code of Serini's diary and find Dorukan's one.

[Precure]

It's a continuity error. According to prequel story "Start of Darkness", Redcloak already has know the location of Lirian's Gate before he met Xykon.

[Fyraltari]

Yes Redcloak knew of Lirian's Gate because ot was discovered by a cleric of the Dark One and the knowledge of it was placed within the Crimson Mantle.

What's interesting is that between the creation of the Mantle and Recloak donning it, the Church of the Dark One somehow found out about Soon's Gate and chose to attack it rather than Lirian's for some reason (probably because there were more goblinoids living in the South than in the West).

[Mike Havran]

There is no error. Redcloak knew about the location of Lirian's Gate from the Crimson Mantle. During the conquest, Xykon became lich and discovered there are other Gates. The bad guys were trying to discover their location for many years; Xykon eventually succeeded while being on his own, apparently learning about Serini and her connection to Lirian The only incongruence I see is that Xykon was able to remember location of Lirian's Gate exactly enough to use it for decryption after so many years; that's fairly unusual level of focus from our lich.


What's interesting is that between the creation of the Mantle and Recloak donning it, the Church of the Dark One somehow found out about Soon's Gate and chose to attack it What makes you think the goblins knew about Soon's gate at the time of Redcloak's initiation, much less that they were trying to attack it?

[Cicciograna]

So when Xykon says that he "decoded" the location of the first gate, it doesn't mean that he "found" it, but that he discovered the way the position was encoded, thus allowing him to decode the position of the following gates.

All right, checks out.

[Alias]

We know from Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) that he was able to find Lirian's Gate and Dorukan's Gate because he "found" the diary and deciphered the locations of the gate from it. The key fact is that he first found the diary, and then located the gates.

Shouldn't Xykon have been human in Serini's memory?



No. Pay more attention to the sequence of events in SoD. This flashback happens during that book, not after it.


Sequence of events is important here:
1. Xykon actually becomes a lich after failing in the first assault on Lirian's Gate.
2. He learns of the other four gates from Lirian right before he kills her during the 2nd assault after becoming a lich.
3. He disappears to search for information on the other gates about the same time Right Eye leaves to find a life beyond a plan.

Serini would have been found and attacked at this point.

4. He re-enters the story after Redcloak tracks down Right Eye and finds out what he's been up to.




No, it's not. See above.

[Precure]

What's interesting is that between the creation of the Mantle and Recloak donning it, the Church of the Dark One somehow found out about Soon's Gate and chose to attack it rather than Lirian's for some reason (probably because there were more goblinoids living in the South than in the West)..

No? Redcloak had no idea that there is gates other than Lirian's.


So when Xykon says that he "decoded" the location of the first gate, it doesn't mean that he "found" it, but that he discovered the way the position was encoded, thus allowing him to decode the position of the following gates.

All right, checks out.

Not really? He was clearly talking about how he found these two gates' locations.

[Alias]

So when Xykon says that he "decoded" the location of the first gate, it doesn't mean that he "found" it, but that he discovered the way the position was encoded, thus allowing him to decode the position of the following gates.

All right, checks out.

Hmm...

At issue is this specific comic -> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html

Start of Darkness (SoD) retcons this to where Redcloak already knew the location of the gate.

Serini's memory flashback scene follows this retcon.

So, upon further investigation there is a continuity error if you haven't read SoD.


SoD further elaborates on how both Xykon and Redcloak even know about the gates - Redcloak from his cloak via the dark one, and Xykon from Lirian by mistake.


The more elaborate telling in SoD sticks to my mind more than the one line reference in #196 and feels more complete than Xykon just happening to know about the gates for no reason.

[Cicciograna]

No. Pay more attention to the sequence of events in SoD. This flashback happens during that book, not after it.


Sequence of events is important here:
1. Xykon actually becomes a lich after failing in the first assault on Lirian's Gate.
2. He learns of the other four gates from Lirian right before he kills her during the 2nd assault after becoming a lich.
3. He disappears to search for information on the other gates about the same time Right Eye leaves to find a life beyond a plan.

Serini would have been found and attacked at this point.

4. He re-enters the story after Redcloak tracks down Right Eye and finds out what he's been up to.



No, it's not. See above.
You are absolutely right.



Not really? He was clearly talking about how he found these two gates' locations.

Eh, not really "clearly". He states that he "deciphered" the location of Lirian's Gate. But as others have pointed, he already knew the location of Lirian's Gate, because Redcloak knew it, and Redcloak knew it because The Dark One knew it and imparted this knowledge to the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

As Alias correctly reminded, Xykon (and Redcloak) didn't even know about the OTHER gates. After Lirian's tongue slipped, Xykon disappeared and probably found and fought Serini, stealing her diary.
The diary was encoded, but using the location of Lirian's Gate as a key, he "deciphered" the (already known to him) location of her Gate and, having cracked the cipher, "deciphered" the (still unknown) location of Dorukan's Gate.


Hmm...

snip

Nono, you are absolutely correct, I was away from books when I posted my question, but when I rechecked SoD I realized that it's definitely as you say.

[Ionathus]

So when Xykon says that he "decoded" the location of the first gate, it doesn't mean that he "found" it, but that he discovered the way the position was encoded, thus allowing him to decode the position of the following gates.

All right, checks out.

Yep. And I don't blame you for the misunderstanding: while taken literally it never claims they used the diary to find Lirian's gate, it's definitely still a little misleading in the way the dialogue is structured. Almost misleading enough that I wonder if the SoD sequence of events was a slight retcon of #196.

As another fun detail, Xykon's statement indicates that he only had the patience to decode the one he already knew (to reverse engineer the encryption), and the next target on his list, but wasn't patient enough to decode any of the other three!

[hroþila]

There's no continuity error, and no need to posit a retcon. Xykon said that without the diary he wouldn't have been able to find Dorukan's Gate. Lirian's Gate is conspicuously absent from that sentence, because he already knew where it was. He was able to decode the location of Lirian's Gate thanks to the fact that he already knew where it was, and used that information to then decode the location of Dorukan's Gate. And after #197 he decoded the rest.

[Alias]

The diary was encoded, but using the location of Lirian's Gate as a key, he "deciphered" the (already known to him) location of her Gate and, having cracked the cipher, "deciphered" the (still unknown) location of Dorukan's Gate.

I forgot about that part, and I believe it is specifically mentioned later. Or maybe not.

Any comic before #200 can be fuzzy since Rich hadn't mapped out the whole grand plot until around that time.

[Cicciograna]

As another fun detail, Xykon's statement indicates that he only had the patience to decode the one he already knew (to reverse engineer the encryption), and the next target on his list, but wasn't patient enough to decode any of the other three!

Exactly! And I'd say that this is entirely in character based on what we know about Xykon, he probably was sure (and he was actually right, to be honest) that he'd be able to capture the gate.

[Precure]

I don't buy it. How can he decipher a diary just by knowing a location?

[Fyraltari]

What makes you think the goblins knew about Soon's gate at the time of Redcloak's initiation, much less that they were trying to attack it?
Because the Sapphire Guard swore and Oath not to interfere with the defense of the other Gates yet we know from Redcloak that they fought the Church of the Dark One. Therefore they must have believed that they were a threat to Soon's Gate specifically.

No? Redcloak had no idea that there is gates other than Lirian's.

Yes Redcloak didn't, but there has been at least three previous Bearers of the Crimson Mantle. It seems like all the relevant intelligence didn't get passed appropriately. Having your numbers massacred so bad you decide to name a random teenager who hasn't even been in the Church for a full day can cause that to happen.

Edit:

I don't buy it. How can he decipher a diary just by knowing a location?

The diary wasn't coded entirely. Just the coordinates.

[Cicciograna]

I don't buy it. How can he decipher a diary just by knowing a location?

It was not the full diary that was encoded, but just the locations of the gates. We see a sample of the diary, when Serini describes her party, and it is readable.

Anyway, imagine this sentence:

QNRDR ZQD QDC

It's clearly "encoded" (although the cipher is extremely weak). It doesn't take long to understand the meaning, but if you know that the first word decodes to "ROSES", deciphering the other two is incredibly easier.

EDIT: specifically, I just implemented a so-called Caesar cipher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_cipher), in which the shift is just -1. I know, I am extremely boring :smalltongue:

[Kish]

The Dark One found Lirian's Gate and led Xykon to it, both at that time believing it was the only access to the Snarl; at Lirian's Gate Xykon became undead and they both learned that there were other Gates; then Xykon tracked down Serini's diary.

No ambiguity, no contradiction, straightforwardly spelled out in Start of Darkness and entirely congruent with what's in the online comic, as other people have pointed out. If that's not good enough for anyone, I think the only reasonable reaction is, "Oh well."

[hroþila]

I don't buy it. How can he decipher a diary just by knowing a location?
Egyptian hieroglyphs were cracked essentially just by knowing the name of one guy.

[Fyraltari]

Egyptian hieroglyphs were cracked essentially just by knowing the name of one guy.

*Stares in Rosetta Stone*

[hroþila]

*Stares in Rosetta Stone*
Exactly, by identifying Ptolemy's cartouche on the Rosetta Stone and taking it from there :smallcool:

[halfeye]

I don't buy it. How can he decipher a diary just by knowing a location?

The cipher would be weak compared to modern ciphers. It helps a lot to know what to expect, when they were cracking the nazi ciphers in WW2, they tried stuff out and looked for output that looked like real german.

[Fyraltari]

Exactly, by identifying Ptolemy's cartouche on the Rosetta Stone and taking it from there :smallcool:

There was the translation of the text in two other languages on the stone. I don't think it's fair to say Champollion cracked it "just by knowing the name of one guy".

[hroþila]

There was the translation of the text in two other languages on the stone. I don't think it's fair to say Champollion cracked it "just by knowing the name of one guy".
I don't think it's unfair, I wasn't trying to be dismissive, I think it's pretty impressive! The texts weren't exact translations of each other and it wasn't that easy to spot matching words. Being able to correctly identify Ptolemy's name was key.

[Mike Havran]

Because the Sapphire Guard swore and Oath not to interfere with the defense of the other Gates yet we know from Redcloak that they fought the Church of the Dark One. Therefore they must have believed that they were a threat to Soon's Gate specifically. Interfering with defense of other Gates is far cry from trying to kill creatures that are a possible threat to any gate, especially if they aren't even in the vicinity of the other gates. If anything, Redcloak's Revered Master does not mention anything about Azurites having any connection to the Plan, only that they kill goblins because they ping as Evil.

[Peelee]

Because the Sapphire Guard swore and Oath not to interfere with the defense of the other Gates yet we know from Redcloak that they fought the Church of the Dark One. Therefore they must have believed that they were a threat to Soon's Gate specifically.

What the Sapphire Guard thought and what was reality are not necessarily the same thing. And, regardless of anything, the Goblin people raided by the Sapphire Guard were likely not on the western continent, and thus not threatening Lirian's Gate, so even if they knew the goblins didn't know about Soon's Gate, it wouldn't constitute interfering with her defenses.

[Precure]

Honestly, till now I always assumed that entire diary was decoded. It seems pretty stupid of Serini to just encoding the coordinates. Anyone can decypher it if they know one of the locations.

[Fyraltari]

Interfering with defense of other Gates is far cry from trying to kill creatures that are a possible threat to any gate, especially if they aren't even in the vicinity of the other gates. If anything, Redcloak's Revered Master does not mention anything about Azurites having any connection to the Plan, only that they kill goblins because they ping as Evil.


What the Sapphire Guard thought and what was reality are not necessarily the same thing. And, regardless of anything, the Goblin people raided by the Sapphire Guard were likely not on the western continent, and thus not threatening Lirian's Gate, so even if they knew the goblins didn't know about Soon's Gate, it wouldn't constitute interfering with her defenses.

I dunno, Redcloak's village was a thousand miles from Azure City which to le implies that the SG were specifically hunting the Bearer rather than just stumbling onto him or something. Especially since Redcloak's crayon story also says they were once "thwarted" by the Sapphire Guard which to me suggests the goblins attacked Soon's Gate.

It's not definitive, but I don't think the guard would have launched crusades against the goblins just because Soon told them "we fought a bunch a goblins once".

[Precure]

They were looking for a goblin with crimson mantle.

[Ionathus]

I dunno, Redcloak's village was a thousand miles from Azure City which to le implies that the SG were specifically hunting the Bearer rather than just stumbling onto him or something. Especially since Redcloak's crayon story also says they were once "thwarted" by the Sapphire Guard which to me suggests the goblins attacked Soon's Gate.

It's not definitive, but I don't think the guard would have launched crusades against the goblins just because Soon told them "we fought a bunch a goblins once".

I'm fairly certain the goblins were only trying to capture Lirian's gate (maybe several times). Redcloak only learns of Lirian's gate through the knowledge from Crimson Mantle, and doesn't learn about the others until [events of SoD]. If I recall correctly, Redcloak's use of "thwarted" is referring to the Order of the Scribble, not the Sapphire Guard, defending Lirian's gate. It's plausible that goblins established themselves as a persistent threat to Lirian's Gate, led by the bearer of Crimson Mantle, and that was enough for the Sapphire Guard to initiate a long-lasting campaign to track down and destroy the Bearer (and if some goblin children happen to die along the way, too bad, so sad).

Redcloak also says that Kraagor "killed thousands of goblins when he was alive," which I'm assuming was before he died, thus it was before Soon formed the Sapphire Guard. That last bit might not back up or refute anything, it might just be me establishing a timeline.

[Mike Havran]

I dunno, Redcloak's village was a thousand miles from Azure City which to le implies that the SG were specifically hunting the Bearer rather than just stumbling onto him or something. Especially since Redcloak's crayon story also says they were once "thwarted" by the Sapphire Guard which to me suggests the goblins attacked Soon's Gate.

It's not definitive, but I don't think the guard would have launched crusades against the goblins just because Soon told them "we fought a bunch a goblins once".My take on the reason is that somebody in the Sapphire Guard did a Divination or somesuch in the past and got a divine response along the lines ''Kill the goblin in red cloak, lest he conquers a Gate and ye all croak''.

[Fyraltari]

They were looking for a goblin with crimson mantle.
That wasn't in question?

I'm fairly certain the goblins were only trying to capture Lirian's gate (maybe several times). Redcloak only learns of Lirian's gate through the knowledge from Crimson Mantle, and doesn't learn about the others until [events of SoD]. The "thwarted" you mentioned is referring to the Order of the Scribble, not the Sapphire Guard, if I recall correctly.

Redcloak also says that Kraagor "killed thousands of goblins when he was alive," which I'm assuming was before he died, thus it was before Soon formed the Sapphire Guard. That last bit might not back up or refute anything, it might just be me establishing a timeline.

p43
Redcloak: But their efforts were thwarted, firstly by a band of adventurers -
Panel showing the Order of the Scribble (with a conspicuously absent Soo Kim) curbstomping a bunch of goblins, one of which is wearing the crimson Mantle, in a dungeon of some kind.
p44
Redcloak: -and years later by an order of paladins native to Azure City. The Crimson Mantle was passed down from cleric to cleric, though, so the quest continued.
Right-Eye:(That's why it's so tattered.)
Panel showing two Sapphire Guards killing goblins, one of which is wearing a never otherwise-seen purple cloak, on some kind of rock.

[Precure]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Redcloak is referring to this event.

[Synesthesy]

There is neither a retcon nor a mistake: it is just written in a way that makes people who didn't read SoD understand everything. It is really important not to do anything that assumes free-users have bought something.


as, for example, the revelation of Redcloak's plan with Tsukiko is a HUGE revelation if you didn't read SoD, while if you did, the revelation in SoD is HUGE, and you'll see in a really different way the conflict between Redcloak and Tsukiko. In other words, the scene is built to be good for both owners of SoD and free-users who are just reading a comic online

[Peelee]

My take on the reason is that somebody in the Sapphire Guard did a Divination or somesuch in the past and got a divine response along the lines ''Kill the goblin in red cloak, lest he conquers a Gate and ye all croak''.

Aye. They could have just visited the Oracle who told them that a red-cloaked goblin will be the harbinger of the Gate's destruction. None of the goblins need to know about Soon's Gate for that to be 100% true but misleading as all get-out, which also perfectly fits the Oracle's attitude towards humans.

[B. Dandelion]

We can't definitively rule out the possibility of there being a prophecy related to the Crimson Mantle being Azure City's destruction. But for it to have never come up in all this time would seem like a glaring omission, especially in HtPGHS. Gin-Jun, who's obsessed with the Mantle, can never think to marshal the single most relevant argument for it being a threat? A definitive prophecy guaranteeing the destruction of Azure City obviously trumps a nebulous potential threat to the world. It should have weighed on his mind, and the minds of all the paladins.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I don't buy it. How can he decipher a diary just by knowing a location?

In addition to all the other answers, a known plaintext attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Known-plaintext_attack) is a classic way of breaking a cipher.

How difficult this would be would depend on the encoding.

If only the co-ordinates were encoded, then knowing the location of Lirian's gate would be relatively easy.

If all the diary was encoded then you would have to look to see something that looked like planar co-ordinates.

If all the diary was encoded but had no format (or used different encoding at different times) the task would be correspondingly harder, but not for a lich with a high INT and lots of free time.