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Skjaldbakka
2007-11-11, 07:36 AM
Me:
That being said, I tend to throw left-over points into charisma because I don't like playing ugly or uncouth characters.

OneWinged4ngel:
This is a whole 'nother rant for me, you realize. I really disagree with the whole idea that low Cha represents being ugly or uncouth. But... like I said, that's a whole 'nother rant.

Discuss?

freakin min-character limit

UserClone
2007-11-11, 07:38 AM
Who are you quoting?
and for those who dig Charisma, be a Sor/Pal.

Somebloke
2007-11-11, 07:39 AM
My only two low-charisma characters have been a Tiefling emo* and a rogue who's entire desciption read 'fades into the background'.

The two experiences have left me with a fondness for the silent but effective types and a hatred for whiny thugs.

* They seem so right for the subculture, don't they?

SilverClawShift
2007-11-11, 07:41 AM
Charisma simply doesn't dictate physical appearance. Anyone who feels so should check page 143 of the monster manual (and note that HAGS, of all things, have 14 CHA).

Charisma is a measure of strength of personality. That's simply what it is.

Now, you could argue that attractive people are more likely to become charismatic in life, as they're used to initially getting more attention, and thus are naturally more comfortable when interacting with/manipulating others. But a character with low charisma is not inherently unattractive, and a character with high charisma is not inherently gorgeous.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-11, 07:43 AM
A discussion from the thread on rogues. First part is me, second part is OneWinged4ngel

Tengu
2007-11-11, 07:46 AM
Low charisma means you are either ugly, uncouth, extremely shy, boring, or lacking in personality, without any other things that'd make you better in interacting with people.

Nagato Yuki from Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu is neither ugly (heh, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I find her cute) nor uncouth, but she does possess a very low charisma, because she has so little force of personality that it's oftenly easy to forget that she's there.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-11-11, 07:49 AM
Charisma != Physical Appearance

Even someone who appears absolutely beautiful can be a horribly annoying, whiny, unconvincing person. While attractiveness can change how people interact with them and beautiful people do often have higher charisma, whether this is the result of instinctive attraction to 'beautiful' people or because they genuinely TEND to develop higher attractiveness is an interesting curiousity, but at the same time, it's completely irrelevant.

SilverClawShift's comment on Hags is the perfect way to reinforce my point.

Charisma = Force of Personality, Persuasiveness
Beauty = Physical Appearance

And remember kids, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, what a human finds attractive, a gibbon might find to be the most horrendous harpy or hag (not the monsters) to ever exist! :smallwink:

Tengu
2007-11-11, 07:52 AM
And remember kids, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, what a human finds attractive, a gibbon might find to be the most horrendous harp or hag (not the monsters) to ever exist! :smallwink:

I dunno, most of the times my tastes seem to be similar to that of male humans...

http://web.missouri.edu/~flinnm/courses/mah/images/gibbon.jpg

Oops... this is not You (picture thread): VI? My secret has been discovered, run!

KIDS
2007-11-11, 07:56 AM
Low Charisma can also mean shy, reserved, or completely open but not talented in making people like you. It doesn't equal ugliness, though I tend to make my high charisma characters pretty or easily remembered in some way.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-11, 07:59 AM
With charisma its sort of like you have your charisma score to spend. A hag has 0 in appearances, 7 in noticability and 7 in force of personality.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 08:12 AM
With charisma its sort of like you have your charisma score to spend. A hag has 0 in appearances, 7 in noticability and 7 in force of personality.

Oh god, someone's trying to figure out a system to make sense of WotC's crazy Charisma assignments! Quick, get the scroll of whatever cures Insanity! :smalleek:

Seriously though. Charisma doesn't mean prettiness and cultural refinement (or lack thereof in the case of low charisma). Go read the description of what Charisma means in the PHB. Physical appearance is one of several factors (and reason would dictate that it's not one of the more significant ones, since Cha works on every race and so on and so forth).

SilverClawShift
2007-11-11, 08:14 AM
*Me prepares a scrol of Disintegration*

Using a very loose interpretation of the word "Cure".

KillianHawkeye
2007-11-11, 08:17 AM
Low Charisma can also mean shy, reserved, or completely open but not talented in making people like you. It doesn't equal ugliness, though I tend to make my high charisma characters pretty or easily remembered in some way.

I agree.

While it is true that Charisma does not directly equate to one's appearance (although appearance IS a factor), I usually let my unimportant village NPCs have appearance = Charisma unless otherwise noted, just for simplicity's sake.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 08:18 AM
*Me prepares a scrol of Disintegration*

Using a very loose interpretation of the word "Cure".

Meh, it works. How much do we overcharge his insurance?

Dareon
2007-11-11, 08:30 AM
Charisma is usually my main stat for a character. However, I have played two low-Cha characters, and had (or hope to have, I've only written up a small expository segment for the most recent one) a fine time playing both.

One was a Wizard with 4 Cha. Female, ugly by consensus. Other players took a look at my rolls, saw I'd done a 4, I said I'd stick it in charisma, they nodded and said "Man, that's ugly!" I figured why not. But I played it up a bit. Made entirely inappropriate innuendo, flirted with people, and essentially made a minor nuisance of diplomacy. Based a little on Gytha Ogg.

The other has 3 Cha. He looks like a typical member of his race, kinda cute to humanoids, decently attractive to his own species, but he's a near complete introvert. Stammers and stutters like a machine gun, either draws into himself or panics whenever someone talks to him, and could probably be cowed into submission by a carved wooden sign.

Edit: In essence, Charisma has as much to do with appearance as the person controlling the character desires.

Fishy
2007-11-11, 09:02 AM
Charisma doesn't have anything to do with physical appearance, because of Astral Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm).

An astral construct generally appears as an animate clump of ectoplasm with a vaguely humanoid shape, but the manifester can mold or sculpt one according to his or her whim within the limits imposed by the creature’s size. The quality of such “construct sculpture” is determined by a Craft (sculpting) check. A result of 10 to 19 creates a creature that is recognizably similar to the desired creature shape; a result of 20 to 29 creates a construct that looks like an accurate portrayal of that creature type; a result of 30 or higher creates a construct that looks like a specific individual.

So, suppose Marylin the Bard has 24 CHA and Bob the Orc has 4. On a DC 30 Craft(Sculpting) check, a psion can create a glowy creature that looks exactly like Marylin, and has 10 CHA, or a glowy creature that looks exactly like Bob, which will also have 10 CHA.

On a completely unrelated note, if Charisma measures noticability, force of personality, stand-out-in-a-crowd-ishness, then really it'd be good for sneaky characters to have a low score, wouldn't it?

Temp
2007-11-11, 10:49 AM
I don't understand...

Why would Charisma have anything to do with appearances?

Where does this thought come from?

Mr.Moron
2007-11-11, 10:57 AM
I don't understand...

Why would Charisma have anything to do with appearances?

Where does this thought come from?

It's kind of tacked-on awkwardly to the description:


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.


I feel it's out of place, but many folks seem to find those 3 words very important. Personally I just choose to ignore it, but by "RAW" it does influence looks.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-11-11, 10:57 AM
I don't understand...

Why would Charisma have anything to do with appearances?

Where does this thought come from?

Dunno. It was around when I started playing 2nd edition back in the 90's, and I imagine its been around for a while.

My guess is that its a misconception of the flavor text. One thing a high charisma character could be is attractive, thus, a low charisma is ugly.

It makes sense at first, since all the other stats are rather black and white like this, but Charisma is a bit more abstract then the others.

Sonofaspectre
2007-11-11, 12:00 PM
In my opinion, and how I rule it in my games, is to take a look at the Charisma skills. UMD, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Handle Animal, etc. A low Charisma affects these things, and that takes me to my personal ruling on it.

"Charisma is how the world interacts with your character, through physical description, force of personality, natural strength in the arcane, and social abilities."

Someone with low CHAR can use the Charisma skills, but they are just not naturally good at it. Whereas "everyone trusts a pretty face," but they may not be trained in the way of Bluffing others, just relying on pure "face-value."

I've had a lot of trouble with Dump-statting Charisma in my games (4 out of 7 of my players did it, two out of seven do it consistently) and then expecting to still pull these things off.

Hope this helps.

Mephisto
2007-11-11, 12:10 PM
On a completely unrelated note, if Charisma measures noticability, force of personality, stand-out-in-a-crowd-ishness, then really it'd be good for sneaky characters to have a low score, wouldn't it?

Disguise is a Charisma-based skill, and for good reason. Someone with a forceful personality self-assuredness can project a persona better than someone who is hesitant and doubting their self.

nerulean
2007-11-11, 12:26 PM
If I recall, there used to be a separate stat called Appearance that was later deemed more or less redundant and removed. When they tried to shelve its contents under another stat, Charisma was the closest match, and so previous editions have lumped us with this misconception. With any luck, it'll vanish from explicit rulings in 4e, but that may be too much to hope for.

I would class Charisma as a measure of your ability to manipulate social situations. Yes, being physically attractive might be useful when trying to persuade people to part with sensitive information (gather information check), but it's certainly not the most important part. Charisma in this situation is your natural ability to spot the trends in a conversation and act in the most beneficial way, so you work out whether it is best to give encouragement when the person is near to revealing their secrets or remain quiet so as not to remind your mark that he is essentially internally monologuing out loud. It's a crude example, but a bit more explanatory than the old 'how many people will follow you if you stand in front of them and give a speech?'

Deepblue706
2007-11-11, 12:51 PM
If Charisma were looks, anything not a Human or an Elf would have a CHA of 3 or lower (well, among core races, rather)!

Think of CHA as being everything that could possibly modify your initial perception of someone. Looks, confidence, manners, language skills...etc. That's not to say you'd never dislike someone with high CHA, it's just you might think them to be easier to deal with, in general.

Chronos
2007-11-11, 01:34 PM
The reason that Charisma is related to physical appearance is that physical appearance isn't all that much physical. A lot of how we look depends on things like bearing, mannerisms, facial expression, and the like. A character with high Charisma is good at consciously or subconsciously controlling these factors, so as to put forth the desired face to the world. Usually, people want to look attractive, so usually, a charismatic character will adopt attractive posture, facial expression, and so on. The same charismatic character making an Intimidate check, though, might adopt a different set of posture, expression, and so on, to look uglier, or more dangerous.


If Charisma were looks, anything not a Human or an Elf would have a CHA of 3 or lower (well, among core races, rather)!I dunno... Halflings and gnomes can be cute, too (have you seen any of the pictures of Lidda?), and even dwarves, orcs, and goblinoids aren't that ugly.

Saph
2007-11-11, 02:11 PM
The reason that Charisma is related to physical appearance is that physical appearance isn't all that much physical. A lot of how we look depends on things like bearing, mannerisms, facial expression, and the like.

Yeah. Two people can have exactly the same sort of facial structure and body features, yet one can look stunning and the other dull-to-ugly. So having Charisma loosely correlate to physical attractiveness isn't all that out there.

- Saph

JaxGaret
2007-11-11, 02:24 PM
On a completely unrelated note, if Charisma measures noticability, force of personality, stand-out-in-a-crowd-ishness, then really it'd be good for sneaky characters to have a low score, wouldn't it?

This is an interesting question.

You could say that, yes, a sneaky character would want to have a low Charisma, so as not to be noticed.

Or you could go the other route, and say that a character with a high Charisma is better at pretending to be someone who you don't need to notice - an ancillary to the Disguise skill, which is partially performance-based and uses Cha mod.

horseboy
2007-11-11, 02:30 PM
If I recall, there used to be a separate stat called Appearance that was later deemed more or less redundant and removed.
Comeliness was in the 1st edition UA.

SpiderKoopa
2007-11-11, 02:32 PM
Oh my, this reminds me of a joke we have going in my circle of d&d players.

We contemplate that charisma covers all the bases, how you interact with society, physical appearance, etc.
So this leads us to believe that a person with high charisma that's a total jerk-hole to everyone must be absolutely gorgeous.
This came up when we were using an alternate critical system and someone had their nose gauged out and got a -4 charisma. He said he was worried about "picking up chicks" to which we said, just be more of a jerk and you must grow your nose back and look prettier.:smalltongue:

Deepblue706
2007-11-11, 03:13 PM
I dunno... Halflings and gnomes can be cute, too (have you seen any of the pictures of Lidda?), and even dwarves, orcs, and goblinoids aren't that ugly.

Tiny people? Hmm... Bearded women? No. Green pig-women with big teeth? GAH!

...Creepy. Creeepy.

JaxGaret
2007-11-11, 03:15 PM
Oh my, this reminds me of a joke we have going in my circle of d&d players.

We contemplate that charisma covers all the bases, how you interact with society, physical appearance, etc.
So this leads us to believe that a person with high charisma that's a total jerk-hole to everyone must be absolutely gorgeous.
This came up when we were using an alternate critical system and someone had their nose gauged out and got a -4 charisma. He said he was worried about "picking up chicks" to which we said, just be more of a jerk and you must grow your nose back and look prettier.:smalltongue:

:biggrin:

That's great. D&D is funny sometimes.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-11, 03:21 PM
This goes to show even things like BoEF can be quite useful. It has an Appearance stat, completely separated from CHA. Thus, APP works with physical beauty, and CHA with personality. While this means some reworking (Half orcs take a penalty on INT, CHA, AND APP, or maybe APP and INT only, depends on you), it kills this kind of debates rapidly.

SadisticFishing
2007-11-11, 03:34 PM
Actually, it clearly says that "Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness." in the SRD.

People with high charisma tend** to look good, or "odd", as it says in the PHB, which gets them looks.

**Tend to meaning that USUALLY. There are always exceptions, and as we know, PCs are exceptions to a lot of rules.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-11, 03:35 PM
See post above yours. 'Nuff said.

Sucrose
2007-11-11, 03:39 PM
This goes to show even things like BoEF can be quite useful. It has an Appearance stat, completely separated from CHA. Thus, APP works with physical beauty, and CHA with personality. While this means some reworking (Half orcs take a penalty on INT, CHA, AND APP, or maybe APP and INT only, depends on you), it kills this kind of debates rapidly.

If you use that stat, then I recommend that it be rolled with 3d6 or 4d6b3, completely independently of the other stats (though you MAY put points in, if one is playing point buy). Otherwise, people would tend to dump-stat it, methinks.

Temp
2007-11-11, 03:43 PM
Actually, it clearly says that "Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness." in the SRD. Right. That's what I don't understand. If it changed the "Physical Attractiveness" bit to "Social Presence" or something it would make sense. But why in god's name did WotC decide to add that blurb?

I really can't stand the concept of Paladins surviving the evil wizards' death spell because they're really really incredibly good-looking.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-11, 03:43 PM
Of course. APP is a rolled stat, though in my opinion it should be rolled with 4d6+something, or have some kind of catch for dumpstatters.


On the bright side, CHA is no longer blamed for Mialee's looks, which are the ugliest thing sine Pauly shore movies.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-11, 03:56 PM
I really can't stand the concept of Paladins surviving the evil wizards' death spell because they're really really incredibly good-looking.

Just watch the end of zoolander until your worries slip away. "His face is just too perfect for a throwing star to dare striking it. Makes sense."

SadisticFishing
2007-11-11, 04:00 PM
A wizard did it!

Seriously, the Gods didn't favor them because they were pretty, they were pretty because the Gods favored them. Think about it.

tyckspoon
2007-11-11, 04:14 PM
Just watch the end of zoolander until your worries slip away. "His face is just too perfect for a throwing star to dare striking it. Makes sense."

Aww.. I wanted to say it.

TheElfLord
2007-11-11, 05:03 PM
This is why I really like White Wolf's nine attribute system as opposed to DnD's 6. They have three social attribute: Charisma, Manipulation, and Apperance, which seems to handle the confusion quite nicely.

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-11, 05:16 PM
Charisma means you make friends easily, which is associated with good looks, boldness, etc. A lack of it means you don't make friends easily, which is associated with bad looks, shyness, etc.

CrazedGoblin
2007-11-11, 05:21 PM
Who are you quoting?
and for those who dig Charisma, be a Sor/Pal.

*COUGH* Bard *COUGH*

Ozymandias
2007-11-11, 05:25 PM
Grouping social presence and physical attractiveness into the same stat isn't much worse than classifying all fields of science, mathematics, etc into one stat.

Fishy
2007-11-11, 07:17 PM
Or equating Mental willpower, the ability to channel divine power, and eyesight.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-11, 11:11 PM
Charisma, Manipulation, and Apperance


Its Presence, Manipulation, and Composure now. Appearance is now a merit.

AstralFire
2007-11-11, 11:35 PM
I look at it from the point of view of spellcasters and psionicists, so I've come to conclude the following.

Intelligence: One's applied analytical strength. Given time to break a situation down, a high intelligence character can understand anything. High Int tends to work bottom-up.
Wisdom: One's passive analytical strength. You instinctively understand how the situation is holistically and then use that as the basis for comprehending the individual factors.
Charisma: One's intuition. You may not understand how or why what you did worked, but it does. It makes sense to you at a gut level which you cannot easily explain to others, but when push comes to shove, you're able to get things done.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-11, 11:58 PM
This goes to show even things like BoEF can be quite useful. It has an Appearance stat, completely separated from CHA. Thus, APP works with physical beauty, and CHA with personality. While this means some reworking (Half orcs take a penalty on INT, CHA, AND APP, or maybe APP and INT only, depends on you), it kills this kind of debates rapidly.

What's the point? I can't really think of any viable reason to have APP as a stat. There aren't that many ways you can use it, and a decent disguise could alter it entirely.

-----

Re: Mental stats:

I look at it this way:

INT is the ability to grasp new concepts. Wizards and Psions use INT because they have to study their spells and powers. Knowledge uses INT because, in the course of one's studies, a high-INT character who spends the same amount of effort (skill points) on a subject as a low-INT character will grasp more concepts. Craft uses INT because high-INT characters are better at learning how everything fits together and what makes a good result. Skill points use INT because high-INT characters learn things more quickly and have more time to devote to a wide variety of topics.

WIS is perception. A high-WIS character tends to notice things better, picking up on clues and subtle hints. Clerics use WIS because the gods trust such people to tell how best to apply their power. PsiWars use WIS for some wierd, pseudoscientific reason, possibly involving "sensing the ebb and flow of the phlogiston in the surrounding area" or "understanding the status of one's own body to best augment it." Perception-based skills use WIS because high-WIS characters can filter out important details from all the data their senses absorb. Profession uses WIS because high-WIS characters can intuit the nature of any problems they encounter on the job. Will saves use WIS because a successful Will save means you've noticed the foreign intrusion on your mind and shut it out.

CHA is sheer force of personality, for everything described above. Sorcerors and Wilders use CHA because their powers are based entirely on their ability to forcibly project their wills on the world around them. Any more detail is redundant with the rest of this topic.

AstralFire
2007-11-12, 12:01 AM
CHA is sheer force of personality, for everything described above. Sorcerors and Wilders use CHA because their powers are based entirely on their ability to forcibly project their wills on the world around them. Any more detail is redundant with the rest of this topic.

This never quite 'jived' with me because of people who get Cha to Reflex Saves or AC, as well as the fact that Will is Wisdom based.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-12, 12:03 AM
I think a good argument why Charisma is not attractiveness is basically, it is defined as a mental stat. Attractiveness is purely physical. And based on the other five stats, physical and mental do not cross over to the other type, so why should Charisma?

Jack Zander
2007-11-12, 12:41 AM
This never quite 'jived' with me because of people who get Cha to Reflex Saves or AC, as well as the fact that Will is Wisdom based.

Having will, and forcing your will are two very different things. Look at all the hapless politicians who get people to agree with them.

Khanderas
2007-11-12, 02:31 AM
<...> and could probably be cowed into submission by a carved wooden sign.

"I'm hungry and need to pee, but the sign says 'STOP' ..."

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-12, 02:34 AM
I think of Charisma as how well you project your personal image of yourself to other people. The sleezy bastard who thinks he is god's gift to women but can never get a date has a low charisma. The cantankerous curmudgeon that makes people hate him and revels in it- high charisma.

"Just think of this guy as 18 charisma worth of *insert defining adjective here*"

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-12, 02:39 AM
This goes to show even things like BoEF can be quite useful. It has an Appearance stat, completely separated from CHA. Thus, APP works with physical beauty, and CHA with personality. While this means some reworking (Half orcs take a penalty on INT, CHA, AND APP, or maybe APP and INT only, depends on you), it kills this kind of debates rapidly.

Why would orcs find other orcs unattractive, again?

Fawsto
2007-11-12, 10:02 AM
IMO, Charisma = Personality strenght.


Other than that, this thread will be lost if we fall on the "How many INCHES of Charisma your Character has?" question. Being it Dungerous enough. :smalltongue:

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-12, 01:10 PM
If we brought inches into it, orcs wouldn't have the penalty.:smalleek:

puppyavenger
2007-11-12, 01:49 PM
I just say that charisma is a measure of persuasiveness and being able to get people to react the way you want them to, for example, Winston Churchill had high charisma but a completely air headed model has low charisma

Saithis Bladewing
2007-11-12, 01:51 PM
If we brought inches into it, orcs wouldn't have the penalty.:smalleek:

Don't be so sure, you know what they say about bodybuilders and the effects of steroids...

Artanis
2007-11-12, 05:13 PM
Its Presence, Manipulation, and Composure now. Appearance is now a merit.
As far as I know, it's still Cha/Man/App in Exalted, at least.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-13, 03:36 AM
Don't be so sure, you know what they say about bodybuilders and the effects of steroids...

Ahh, but Orcs don't use steroids. Just good ol' fashioned excess testosterone(and enough of the receptors), and lots of meat. They do trend towards baldness though, but yeah, actual testosterone vs testosterone simulators. Besides, when was the last time you saw a male orc with breasts?:smalltongue:

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-13, 03:38 AM
As far as I know, it's still Cha/Man/App in Exalted, at least.

That is probably true. Exalted =/= World of Darkness, though. New Exalted actually makes more use of Appearance, IIRC.

Fawsto
2007-11-13, 09:28 AM
Also a character maybe Charismatic but closed to himself. Since a High Charisma means he is hard to be persuated, his High Charisma score maybe represent his strong beliefs about something.

Person_Man
2007-11-13, 10:11 AM
I would argue that while Charisma doesn't equal physical appearance, physical appearance is certainly part of Charisma.

For example, we've all met a stereotypically attractive woman - for example a tall thin large breasted blue eyed blond - who has the personality of a rusty lead pipe. She's fun to look at, but horrible to talk to. Most of the time, she'll fail Charisma related checks. But she still ends up getting plenty of free drinks, and plenty of stereotypically attractive men go out with her (for a brief period of time). And she might even get jobs that she's totally unqualified for, just because people enjoy looking at her. Perhaps she has a Charisma of 8-12.

Now consider what would happen if the same exact personality in a stereotypically unattractive man - for example a short Shamu-like pink-eyed boy with a bad dye job - who also has the personality of a rusty lead pipe. He's likely to fail every Charisma related check. He has a horrible time finding a date, or spending time at a party. And maybe he's rejected from jobs he's over qualified for because people don't want to be near him. Perhaps he has a Charisma of 3-8, lower then the attractive woman, even though he has the same personality.

So while its possible for a butt ugly person to have a phenomenal Charisma, I think that appearance is clearly a part of Charisma in most cases. Your mother lied to you. What's inside of you is not the only thing that matters. The world is sometimes a superficial place.

Fishy
2007-11-13, 10:16 AM
Its Presence, Manipulation, and Composure now. Appearance is now a merit.

I'd just like to go on the record saying that whatever you think of White Wolf and Monster: The Angst, their approach to statistics is awesome.

Decide what your game is about, and pick arenas in which characters are going to be competing: White Wolf chose Physical, Mental and Social, but it could just as easily be Magic, Tiny Robots, and Investment Banking.

For each field, you get three statistics: one for raw force, one for finesse, and one for endurance. Strength, Dexterity, Constitution. Presence, Manipulation, Composure. Liquid Assets, Market Saavy, Net Worth. It's simple, flexible, and intuitive.

Artanis
2007-11-13, 12:13 PM
That is probably true. Exalted =/= World of Darkness, though. New Exalted actually makes more use of Appearance, IIRC.
Yeah, the systems are pretty similar though :smallwink:

And yes, 2nd edition Exalted goes out of its way to find a way to use Appearance. They made it a modifier in Social Combat, so now it actually has a mechanical use :smalltongue:

Telonius
2007-11-13, 01:51 PM
I think that charisma, as far as influencing others is concerned, ought to be split up into two different items: Appearance and Charisma. The generation of the stats for these shouldn't be related to each other. Appearance would influence the judgment people make before talking to you. Charisma would influence the opinion after you interact.

This would actually model real-life interactions pretty well. If a shopkeeper sees a gorgeous woman, most likely he'll have a slightly higher opinion of her. (Game terms: Friendly rather than Indifferent) and be anxious to help her. If she completely puts her foot in her mouth or starts acting like an Annoying Customer (game terms: rolls less than 1 on a diplomacy check) he'll reconsider his opinion. If she then insults him (game terms: rolls less than 1 on a diplomacy check), he grudgingly helps her out since it's still his job (becomes Unfriendly). If she keeps it up (rolls another 1) he asks her to leave (becomes Hostile).

EDIT: But let's take the other end of that. The gorgeous woman only has to roll above a 1 on her diplomacy check to get the shopkeeper to stay friendly. An average-looking person (starting out at indifferent) would need to interact with the shopkeep and get a 15 to get the good service that Miss Head Cheerleader would. An ugly person (starting out at Unfriendly) would need to roll a 25.