Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?

[paladinofshojo]

So we know that the goblins had been created by Fenris, does that mean that prior to the Dark One’s apotheosis that he was the chief deity of the goblins? Or at the very least played a major role in their religion?

Did the Dark One initially worship him? Akin to how the Patron God/First Emperor of Warhammer Fantasy, Sigmar Heldenhammer was a worshipper of the White Wolf Ulric?

Does that mean that the Dark One and Fenris are connected somehow? Would they have an alliance? Or be at war because they both feel they have a more rightful claim over the souls of goblinkind over the other?

[Draconi Redfir]

seems to me more like Fenris created them, but was never actually part of their lives, kind of like when you load up a life-simulator game like "Creatures" or "The Sims" and get everything set up, but then just leave them to their own devices to see how they get on their own. At best he looked over at them to see if they've done what he was hoping for yet, at worst he got bored after a couple hundred years and forgot they existed.

[JeenLeen]

I think we don't know for certain, but I would conclude No based on what we know.

Fenris created the goblins, but got bored with them. Presumably centuries/millennia ago (I forget how long this world existed). So there's no reason Fenris would particularly care about the goblins.
For that reason, no reason the goblins would particularly venerate him.
And since the bugbear hunter (Oona?) doesn't speak of him when talking theology with Redcloask, well, that's some evidence he's not important to religious holidays or festivals like the Dark one is.

Lastly, if the Dark One was allied with Fenris or a devotee of him before ascension, I would think Fenris would have sponsored him into joining the same pantheon. That the Dark One made his own pantheon (quiddity) makes me believe that the Dark One, and probably goblins in general, had no strong devotion to any deity.

[Fyraltari]

According to The Giant, the goblins worshipped "no one" before the Dark One. So the answer would be a resounding no. Probably because Fenrir got bored of them and did not involve himself with them after cretaing them.

I guess one could consider the Dark One to be something of a descendant of Fenris but, if the way he is portrayed by Recloak in SoD is accurate, and if the Dark One is aware of the connection it probably means he hates Fenrir most out of all the other gods, for he is specifically the one who botched them and abandonned them. So fat chance on them being allies. This is supported by the fact that Fenrir is never listed as one of the Dar One's allies, only Loki, Rat, Tiamat and, for a broad meaning of "ally", Thor are.

[RMS Oceanic]

I assume that nearly everything in the world is a three-quiddity mixture, regardless of which god(s) worked on it. That probably leaves them with the metaphysical independence to form a new quiddity if they aren't guided by any one pantheon.

I also believe that despite Rich's comments individual goblins probably drifted to this or that deity over time, it's just their culture as a whole never did before the Dark One.

[The Pilgrim]

Since the Giant stated that the Goblins worshipped no one at the time of TDO's ascension, my headcanon is:

1. Goblins initally worshipped Fenris.

2. Fenris lost interest in them and began neglecting them.

3. Goblins stopped worshipping Fenris. Their shamans became non-theistic, getting their spells from nature spirits and stuff like that.

4. TDO is born.

5. TDO is killed.

6. TDO is ascended.

7. Goblins begin to worship TDO.

[Rrmcklin]

I assume that nearly everything in the world is a three-quiddity mixture, regardless of which god(s) worked on it. That probably leaves them with the metaphysical independence to form a new quiddity if they aren't guided by any one pantheon.

I also believe that despite Rich's comments individual goblins probably drifted to this or that deity over time, it's just their culture as a whole never did before the Dark One.

I mean, when he's made absolute statements like that before he meant them literally (i.e. literally no living person in this world has ever worshiped Hel.) so it's not impossible the same applies to no goblins ever worshiping any of the gods existing before the Dark One. Just pointing this out, not saying it has to be the case.

[Mike Havran]

Since the Giant stated that the Goblins worshipped no one at the time of TDO's ascension, my headcanon is:

1. Goblins initally worshipped Fenris.

2. Fenris lost interest in them and began neglecting them.

3. Goblins stopped worshipping Fenris. Their shamans became non-theistic, getting their spells from nature spirits and stuff like that.

4. TDO is born.

5. TDO is killed.

6. TDO is ascended.

7. Goblins begin to worship TDO. I second this.

[Ionathus]

I second this.

Thirded.

An interesting follow-up question is "does TDO know the full story of goblins' creation?" and I don't think we have enough info to confirm or deny. #1232 partially refutes the crayon narrative from SoD, though whether that incongruity is "a result of TDO's paranoia" or "just an outright lie TDO told his High Priest" is currently unprovable one way or the other, I believe.

[Rrmcklin]

I'm not really seeing a reason to think the goblinoids ever actually worshipped Fenrir/s. Just because they were his idea/creation doesn't mean they had to worship him. The context of the quote implies that they never worshiped anyone before the Dark One, this new information doesn't really change that.

[Dion]

I am awfully confused why the goblins don’t worship other gods.

We see dwarves worshipping multiple gods; we see humans worshipping multiple gods; we see halflings worshipping multiple gods; we see gnomes worshipping multiple gods.

Why wouldn’t goblins worship Thor or Surtur or Odin or whatever?

[Fyraltari]

I am awfully confused why the goblins don’t worship other gods.

We see dwarves worshipping multiple gods; we see humans worshipping multiple gods; we see halflings worshipping multiple gods; we see gnomes worshipping multiple gods.

Why wouldn’t goblins worship Thor or Surtur or Odin or whatever?

I'm guessing the goblins see those gods as ennemy gods and, mirror-like, these gods' clergies weren't interested in goblin flocks.

[hroþila]

The goblins [...] worshipped no one before the Dark One.
That's not "at the time of the Dark One's ascension", it's never. The goblins never worshipped Fenrir or any other gods.
I would also imagine the goblins started worshipping the Dark One before he ascended, and that their worship was part of what made him ascend.

[dancrilis]

I am awfully confused why the goblins don’t worship other gods.

We see dwarves worshipping multiple gods; we see humans worshipping multiple gods; we see halflings worshipping multiple gods; we see gnomes worshipping multiple gods.

Why wouldn’t goblins worship Thor or Surtur or Odin or whatever?

Three reasons I would imagine.
Firstly - when Fenris abandoned them nobody else showed up so they never had a proper understanding of any deities dogma to begin worshipoing.
Secondly - the flocks of the existing gods were more interested in preaching to their own people rather then missionary work.
Thirdly - The Dark One effectively says 'all the other gods are enemies and they see no value in you' so that any goblin that considered it would be discouraged based on cultural teachings and regarded as a traitor to their peoploe if they attempted it anyway.


That's not "at the time of the Dark One's ascension", it's never.
That is you choosing which words to add to his statement from options you have chosen.

[KorvinStarmast]

Lastly, if the Dark One was allied with Fenris or a devotee of him before ascension, I would think Fenris would have sponsored him into joining the same pantheon. That the Dark One made his own pantheon (quiddity) makes me believe that the Dark One, and probably goblins in general, had no strong devotion to any deity. TDO is changing that, for some goblinoids, and Redcloak is his prophet. :smallwink:


1. Goblins initally worshipped Fenris.
2. Fenris lost interest in them and began neglecting them.
3. Goblins stopped worshipping Fenris. Their shamans became non-theistic, getting their spells from nature spirits and stuff like that.
4. TDO is born.
5. TDO is killed.
6. TDO is ascended.
7. Goblins begin to worship TDO. Fourthed.

I am awfully confused why the goblins don’t worship other gods. Given the raw deal they got? Not a surprise to me.

[hroþila]

That is you choosing which words to add to his statement from options you have chosen.
Yup.pppppp

[Dion]

Given the raw deal they got? Not a surprise to me.

Sure, but Dwarfs got a raw deal from Loki, Hel, and Thor. Yet here they are, still worshipping Thor and Odin.

I don't know. It's like when the everyone is spending world creation points, it was like:

Zeus: Are we all spending points on humans again?
Other Gods: Oh yeah. We're all in.

Thor [visibly drunk]: I'm going to do dwarves again. Anyone want to help?
Odin, Loki, Hel, and Others: Yeah, big guy. Let us help you with dwarfs.
Heimdahl: Damnit Thor! They're three feet tall! What were you thinking?
Thor: They're "medium"!
Loki: [snickers].

Tiamat: I'm spending every point I've got on the Dragons! Gonna optimize this build!

Tiamat (Later): Oh, one point left over. I guess... Kobolds?
Other Gods: Ugh. Seriously? They smell like alpacas!
Tiamat: C'mon, help me out here. Kobolds are fun.
Other Gods: Fine, we'll each toss in a few points. Don't want it to turn out like the movie snack world again. Popcorn was awful.

Fenrir: I'll spend one point on goblins.

Fenrir: Wait, never mind. Can I take back the point on goblins?
Other Gods: What? You can't take back points!
Fenrir: I'm giving the goblins rocks to eat instead of potatoes. I'm taking back my point.

Fenrir: I'm spending all my remaining points on Trolls! And Sentient Fungus!
Other Gods: Wait... sentient fungus? What? You screwed over goblins to make sentient fungus?
Fenrir: Not my fault.
Other Gods: That's literally the dictionary definition of "your fault". What were you thinking?
Fenrir: Y'all can fix them for me.
Other Gods: No. Screw goblins. They're your problem.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sure, but You may not be aware that I have read the whole comic strip, have all of the core books on pdf, and have the 'other' books also. I am reasonably familiar with the story.

[mjasghar]

Except Zeus got Snarled
Anyway, I suspect that what happened was goblins prayed for help but no god was willing to help because they were regarded as Fenris’ project. A bit strange how they ended up existing in all the lands.
And Fenris didn’t answer them because he is a git.

[Thermophille]

And Fenris didn’t answer them because he is a git.

We should at least wait until Fenris says his peace on the matter. I imagine it'll come up at some point.

[mjasghar]

CE god and not even Loki style CE(CN)

[Dion]

Anyway, I suspect that what happened was goblins prayed for help but no god was willing to help because they were regarded as FenrisÂ’ project..

And I find that odd, because *some* god created humans.

If gods are expected to ignore each other’s creation, then we would expect nearly every god but one to ignore humans?

[Crimsonmantle]

I am awfully confused why the goblins don’t worship other gods.

Why wouldn’t goblins worship Thor or Surtur or Odin or whatever?

Because they are monotheists. Your confusion reminds me of Roman Emperors' confusion why Jews and early Christians wouldn't worship Sol Invictus. (Note to self: Better not ride that parallel too hard.)
Besides, they're all systemically at fault for goblinoids' troubles. Sure Fenny may have a particularly troubling haecceity but he doesn't share a quiddity with these people for nothing.

[mjasghar]

They aren’t monotheistic as they acknowledge other gods exist just don’t worship them.

[The Pilgrim]

Three reasons I would imagine.Firstly - when Fenris abandoned them nobody else showed up so they never had a proper understanding of any deities dogma to begin worshipoing.
Secondly - the flocks of the existing gods were more interested in preaching to their own people rather then missionary work.
Thirdly - The Dark One effectively says 'all the other gods are enemies and they see no value in you' so that any goblin that considered it would be discouraged based on cultural teachings and regarded as a traitor to their peoploe if they attempted it anyway.

In the D&D cosmology, from which OOTS borrows his, each God has his or her (or it) portfolio, which is the list of things that deity reigns over. Like Thor being the God of Thunder, or Hel being the Godess of Disease.

My head canon is that Goblinoids, having been created by Fenrir, belonged to that God's portfolio. The fact that Fenris began to neglect the goblinoids doesn't means other Gods got to step in and take over. And, given how adverse to conflict are Gods in this setting, it makes sense they wouldn't begin to fight over who ruled the goblinoids. When The Dark One ascended, they agreed to handle him the portfolio, probably because they felt like they were handling him scraps.

[Metastachydium]

They aren’t monotheistic as they acknowledge other gods exist just don’t worship them.

The term you're looking for is monolatry (and it's apparently quite common in the Stickverse).



My head canon is that Goblinoids, having been created by Fenrir, belonged to that God's portfolio.

Well, Fenris is quite officially the Northern god of monsters, so creatures considered monsters should indeed belong to his portfolio.

[Dion]

My head canon is that Goblinoids, having been created by Fenrir, belonged to that God's portfolio.

But humans were created by some god. Why aren’t humans part of *that* gods portfolio, and why don’t all other gods ignore humans?

They’re all entries in the monster manual!

[mjasghar]

The term you're looking for is monolatry (and it's apparently quite common in the Stickverse).



Well, Fenris is quite officially the Northern god of monsters, so creatures considered monsters should indeed belong to his portfolio.

Except goblinoids seem to be native to all 3 continents in a way that dwarves and elves are not.

[Metastachydium]

Except goblinoids seem to be native to all 3 continents in a way that dwarves and elves are not.

Well, technically we don't know them to be native to all continents. All we know is that they are (or, as the case may be in the West, were) present on all three continents. They could have spread out from the North.

[KorvinStarmast]

In the D&D cosmology, from which OOTS borrows his, each God has his or her (or it) portfolio, which is the list of things that deity reigns over. Like Thor being the God of Thunder, or Hel being the Godess of Disease.

My head canon is that Goblinoids, having been created by Fenrir, belonged to that God's portfolio. The fact that Fenris began to neglect the goblinoids doesn't means other Gods got to step in and take over. Hm, is there no RPS (Race Protective Services)in the Astral Plane in the case of a negligent deity?

The term you're looking for is monolatry (and it's apparently quite common in the Stickverse). yay, I learned a useful new word today, Thanks! :smallsmile:

Well, Fenris is quite officially the Northern god of monsters, so creatures considered monsters should indeed belong to his portfolio. Ergo, goblins are monsters. :smallwink: (Which, if we go back to old time D&D, all creatures who were not PCs were).

They’re all entries in the monster manual! I've been told that in 3.x humans are not in the monster manual. (The more I think of it, the more bizarre I find that approach, but I then look at 5e and realize that they did something similar there, although Beserkers and Knights are in the MM, they are "fill in the race here" and all races seem to be in the PHB, except then in Volo's they overlapped ... sorry, different edition, I'll stop)

[Doug Lampert]

The term you're looking for is monolatry (and it's apparently quite common in the Stickverse).

It's typically called henotheism if you think the god you worship is also the most powerful god.

Goblins presumably do not think TDO is the most powerful god so monolatry is correct, and is a new word to me also.

[Fyraltari]

yay, I learned a useful new word today, Thanks! :smallsmile:


A related term is henotheism, that is, the worship of several deities but with one above the others. Usually because their domain is the most relevant to the worshipper's everyday life, such as a sea god for a fisherman.

Durkon and his family, for example seem henotheists to me, as in, they worship all the Northern Gods (Hel excepted, or maybe in a "worshipped against sense), but Thor most of all.

[Metastachydium]

(In the strict sense, henotheism describes arrangements where there is a kind of hierarchy and the „Hen” is considered an overdeity or at the very least, one of objectively higher rank than the others, so I'm not sure the thing with dwarves and Thor fits.)

[Fyraltari]

(In the strict sense, henotheism describes arrangements where there is a kind of hierarchy and the „Hen” is considered an overdeity or at the very least, one of objectively higher rank than the others, so I'm not sure the thing with dwarves and Thor fits.)

Heh, I'm not an expert, that's just how I recall the word being explained to me.

[Metastachydium]

I'm not an expert

Come, now. Here, on the Wall this forum Everyone's an Expert (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623429-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XVIII-Everyone-s-an-Expert)!

[The Pilgrim]

Hm, is there no RPS (Race Protective Services)in the Astral Plane in the case of a negligent deity?

There seems to be more Neutral and Evil outsiders than there are Good. For an Evil God, discarding followers who have failed is par for the course. For certain takes on neutrality, it would fall under survival-of-the-fittest. A Good deity would care for the inherent dignity of the lives of it's creations. But the Goblins weren't created by a Good deity.

[KorvinStarmast]

But the Goblins weren't created by a Good deity. But if I read how humans are, and how they are aligned, the OoTS gods seem to have all created humans as a joint project since humans are and can be of any and every alignment.

Not sure if that goes for elves or dwarves, since I think they have a 'preferred' or 'most likely' alignment in the Monster Manual, right?

Taking this idea one step further, it points to the suboptimal race having to be the humans - since they were built by committee. :smallcool: (And there sits the fruit pie sorcerer, weeping in the corner ...) They eventually overcame their initial handicap, I guess (can't see in the dark, don't live for hundreds of years, no stone cunning, etc)