What is the best non-passive tank?

[Man_Over_Game]

I’m looking for a tank with the most interaction as possible.

I want to avoid things like the Tough or Resilience feats.

I want to avoid having a situation where I should only spend my level 1 spell slots on Shield, or I’m limited to just using Rage at the start of every important fight.

I want to have options to be a major nuisance for when the enemy decides that I’m not worth attacking (for example, high damage, Concentration, or a taunt-effect).

I want to act in preparation of what I expect my enemy to do (Ancestral Guardian), not wait for them to do what I want them to (Cavalier).

I want to play something who’s entire combat identity can’t be scripted on a computer made in Minecraft.


I think it’s a pretty difficult challenge. So…any takers?

[verbatim]

Battlemaster and Order Cleric (one or the other or multiclassed) both provide many different options for control.

[Catullus64]

Human Druid, Level 4+. War Caster and Slasher. Enemy provokes opportunity attack, you cast Thorn Whip (melee spell attack, no disadvantage.) If you hit, you yank them back 10 feet (with a generous DM, you could yank them past you). They also lose 10 feet of movement (Slasher doesn't specify a weapon attack). You've very likely shut them down from getting wherever they were trying to go. Circle doesn't matter much, but I'd go for Land, so I can be more likely to ignore some of my own Entangles come level 6.

Technically, there are other builds that can use this combo, but a single-classed druid will have the easiest time getting both feats and the cantrip, and has the most Wisdom synergy. A ranger with Druidic warrior helps too.

Druids also just make good all-around tanks, with movement controlling effects and personal defensive buffs/healing. (Yes, I know you said you don't care so much about passive defenses, but forcing the enemies to hit you doesn't count so much if you get downed in 2 rounds.)

This hardly qualifies as the "best possible" tank, but it's certainly fun!

[Man_Over_Game]

Human Druid, Level 4+. War Caster and Slasher. Enemy provokes opportunity attack, you cast Thorn Whip (melee spell attack, no disadvantage.) If you hit, you yank them back 10 feet (with a generous DM, you could yank them past you). They also lose 10 feet of movement (Slasher doesn't specify a weapon attack). You've very likely shut them down from getting wherever they were trying to go. Circle doesn't matter much, but I'd go for Land, so I can be more likely to ignore some of my own Entangles come level 6.

Technically, there are other builds that can use this combo, but a single-classed druid will have the easiest time getting both feats and the cantrip, and has the most Wisdom synergy. A ranger with Druidic warrior helps too.

Druids also just make good all-around tanks, with movement controlling effects and personal defensive buffs/healing. (Yes, I know you said you don't care so much about passive defenses, but forcing the enemies to hit you doesn't count so much if you get downed in 2 rounds.)

This hardly qualifies as the "best possible" tank, but it's certainly fun!

Very interesting, my concern is that, as a Druid, you're probably one of the best targets to focus in the first place (due to most of their best spells using Concentration and having few defensive perks).

There aren't many instances where an enemy wants to provoke an OA from a Druid. It's a great synergy I never considered, combining Thorn Whip with Slasher, I just think it'd be more reliable if you could find a reason to make the enemy want to get away from you.

So far, the best thing I can come up with that'd do that would be a Nature Cleric, as they have higher AC and better defenses than Rangers or Druids, while also having more melee support than Druids and not feeling like they're wasting turns not using Extra Attack.

[x3n0n]

Human Druid, Level 4+. War Caster and Slasher. Enemy provokes opportunity attack, you cast Thorn Whip (melee spell attack, no disadvantage.) If you hit, you yank them back 10 feet (with a generous DM, you could yank them past you). They also lose 10 feet of movement (Slasher doesn't specify a weapon attack).

Thorn Whip deals piercing, not slashing. Am I missing something?
(Otherwise, this would be yet another thing to stack on top of OP's favorite Cleric domain, Nature. Edit: ninjaed by OP. :) )

That said, Slasher is a nice pick anyway. A Slasher shield-and-whip (and/or sword/battle-axe and/or dual scimitar/handaxe) Paladin with Spirit Shroud locks people down pretty hard, and even more with Athletics proficiency and Shield Master. Oath of Conquest can impede their mobility even more.

[Unoriginal]

I think all your criteria point toward an Open Hand Monk with Sentinel.

Or a Conquest Paladin with Sentinel, especially a Leonin one.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think all your criteria point toward an Open Hand Monk with Sentinel.

Or a Conquest Paladin with Sentinel, especially a Leonin one.

TBF, I'm not even sure Sentinel is necessary. Monks can use Stunning Strike on an OA, and Conquest Paladins can already lock down movement with fear.

I wasn't familiar with Leonin, but I definitely agree with it having massive synergy with Conquest Paladins.

My concern about the Open Hand Monk is that it might be a little too squishy to be a primary target, and their powers are better used for leveraging allies' damage effects more than mitigating the enemy's threat (10 feet or Prone isn't quite enough to negate an enemy's ability to hurt people).

As for Conquest Pally, I've always been a bit averse to Paladins in general. Divine Smite is almost always more efficient than most spells you can cast, and it's a pretty dumbfire tool to use. Otherwise, your powers are mostly designed around positioning yourself for your Fear abilities. However, that's not the worst thing, and it might be something I should look into if there is enough diversity in playstyle.

[Hairfish]

The Echo Knight + Ancestral Barb dip over in the eclectic builds thread is pretty boss. In addition to the Ancestral nuisance tag, you're shuffling your echo all over the place and swapping places with it.

Also, you get to annoy the party with endless clone puns.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Echo Knight + Ancestral Barb dip over in the eclectic builds thread is pretty boss. In addition to the Ancestral nuisance tag, you're shuffling your echo all over the place and swapping places with it.

Also, you get to annoy the party with endless clone puns.

Definitely. AG + EchoK hybrids are awesome.

[Jamesps]

Suprised Ancenstral Barbarian wasn't mentioned. Attack someone to make them do half damage to your party? That seems about the tankiest thing you could do. Granted they're not naturally that resilient compared to other barbarians, but they're still a barbarian. And keep in mind you don't have to attack in melee. You could huck a javelin at a dragon, run behind cover and that dragon is doing half damage to everyone for the round and at disadvantage to hit. Then use your reaction to knock it's damage down even further.

[stoutstien]

Battlesmith with a RK fighter dip. Just having a whole set of actions based on your bonus action is very flexible and proactive.

[Catullus64]

Thorn Whip deals piercing, not slashing. Am I missing something?
(Otherwise, this would be yet another thing to stack on top of OP's favorite Cleric domain, Nature. Edit: ninjaed by OP. :) )

That said, Slasher is a nice pick anyway. A Slasher shield-and-whip (and/or sword/battle-axe and/or dual scimitar/handaxe) Paladin with Spirit Shroud locks people down pretty hard, and even more with Athletics proficiency and Shield Master. Oath of Conquest can impede their mobility even more.

Piercing? Shucks, you're right. I don't know how I got it into my head that it was slashing. I'm even more inclined to agree that Cleric is probably the best option, with or without Slasher combo. Spirit Guardians also provides a nice incentive for creatures to want to get out of melee with you in the first place, and slows them even more.

[Man_Over_Game]

Thorn Whip deals piercing, not slashing. Am I missing something?
(Otherwise, this would be yet another thing to stack on top of OP's favorite Cleric domain, Nature. Edit: ninjaed by OP. :) )

That said, Slasher is a nice pick anyway. A Slasher shield-and-whip (and/or sword/battle-axe and/or dual scimitar/handaxe)

Hmm...Gives me an idea. Horizon Walker with Slasher, using a whip. You can slash three different targets, teleporting between each of them, and just walk away while they're crippled. Seems fun, it just sucks that their most fun power isn't available until level 11.

I should probably look up what other spells deal physical damage types now that we have feats based off of them.

[EDIT] For those that may be interested, it seems that the only things worthwhile to focus on are Druids and Bludgeoning, as Shillelagh and Magic Stone are some of the only spells that deal a physical damage type with an attack roll.

[strangebloke]

The problem here is that at some point this is just going to be a question of crowd control, since that's really the best way to 'tank.' for that challenge I'd probably build something pretty basic like:

Dragonborn Conquest Paladin
16/12/14/8/8/16
Interception Style
ASI 1: dragon fear (+1 CHA)
ASI 2: Skill Expert (Athletics, +1 CHA)
ASI 3: Shield Master
ASI 4: CHA + 2

this give you a variety of options to control space around your party. Firstly, you're on a horse so you're highly mobile, giving you the capacity to select targets at will. Secondly you have like four sources of mass AOE fear, all with different nuance, most of which come back on a short rest. Dragon fear is my fav because it's completely unbreakable unless you damage them (note, you can still knock them prone without breaking the fear). Thirdly if there's a single high-priority target you can knock them down and then hit them with something like wrathful smite which places them in the wonderful state of "speed is zero and I am prone." (bonus, they're prone so they can't use ranged weapons) Your AC is good and you can give yourself tHP through AoA which makes you particularly good at holding a narrow passage way against numerous weaker enemies and also buffs your horse. Interception allows you to buff allied defenses (or your own, or your horse's) and keep more people alive. Sure its only 1d10 per turn

Finally for a cheesy trick: Grapple someone then ride off with them. Your mount's speed is not halved.

What keeps this from being a particularly prescripted playtstyle is that you're juggling a lot of long/short rest resources and have a lot of options for your action economy. Your positioning is also really important both because of the level 7 aura effect dropping speed to zero, but also because of the more general fear effect that prevents creatures from moving closer to you.

Alternately swap shield master for PAM or sentinel, these work well for controlling space as well although they're definitely reactive.

[x3n0n]

just walk away while they're crippled.

Just note that Slasher only hamstrings one target per turn.

[Man_Over_Game]

just note that slasher only hamstrings one target per turn.

CURSES! Foiled Again!

[Crucius]

I guess there are two schools of tanking-thought:

The first is that to tank, you should make yourself the juiciest/only target. Long death monks can be this type of tank: low HP, okay AC, but with Mastery of Death nigh impossible to kill. Zealot barbarians suit this playstyle as well; super big threat, easy to hit (especially with reckless attack), but nigh unkillable (from level 14 on, sadly). Ancestral guardians do a good job at essentially making yourself the only sensible target.

The second is that to tank, you should make your enemy worse at hitting you/others. This can be done by proper zoning (AoE hazards, wall of fire, difficult terrain, speed reduction), or CC (which is essence a form of zoning but things like grapple, frightening, restraining or dishing out general disadvantage). Spellcasters can do this kind of 'tanking' best I feel.

I feel that tanking generally works best against melee only monsters, as you can nullify their abilities through proper blocking and positioning. Ranged monsters (spellcasters included) often have to be hard CC'd to render them ineffective.

Ancestral Guardians do the first type best in my opinion.
Wall spells and Spirit Guardians do the second type best. In an ideal world both would be an option, but this would be a very high level build, and probably not very good.

Edit: I guess tanking can also be viewed as 'surviving everything' and then rushing into the fray and hoping you take the most damage, thus preventing damage directed at your allies. Not a big believer in that style.

[stoutstien]

CURSES! Foiled Again!

Yea. it is once per turn and not round at least.

[x3n0n]

Yea. it is once per turn and not round at least.

Right, which means it can function like a poor man's Sentinel as well.

Something like v.human (Slasher) Paladin 1 already has a lot going on tactically. strangebloke's recommended Interception fighting style is definitely the right call in the early levels. Basically, if you're looking for more crowd control in levels 1-6ish and are willing to give up one good source of fear, I think you'd enjoy his build suggestion, just swapping Dragonborn for V.Human (Slasher) and swapping a different half-Cha feat for Dragon Fear.

[RogueJK]

Suprised Ancenstral Barbarian wasn't mentioned. Attack someone to make them do half damage to your party? That seems about the tankiest thing you could do. Granted they're not naturally that resilient compared to other barbarians, but they're still a barbarian. And keep in mind you don't have to attack in melee. You could huck a javelin at a dragon, run behind cover and that dragon is doing half damage to everyone for the round and at disadvantage to hit. Then use your reaction to knock it's damage down even further.



The first is that to tank, you should make yourself the juiciest/only target... Ancestral guardians do a good job at essentially making yourself the only sensible target.


Ancestral Guardian with a ranged weapon is a great "alternative tank" combo. Make yourself the only sensible target, but keep yourself out of range. It doesn't even have to be a thrown weapon, although that does open up a few points of additional Rage damage bonus plus the opportunity to Reckless Attack. But you can just use DEX-based ranged attacks while raging, and get the same benefit from the Ancestral Guardians.

Combo with something like 3 levels of Scout Rogue for added combat options, as well as extra mobility from both Cunning Action Dash and Skirmisher, plus a little additional Sneak Attack damage. Or combo with Battlemaster Fighter for added effects to your ranged attacks from Maneuvers (Disarm, Distract, Goad, Maneuver, Menace, Push, Trip, etc.). Or maybe both, doing something like a Ancestral Guardian 5/Battlemaster 4/Scout X using XBE and SS with a Hand Crossbow.


But I'll agree that a Heavy Armor Nature Cleric with Warcaster and Sentinel would be a solid traditional "front line" tank, and rather SAD too (especially if you're a Dwarf). Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + Dodge Action or Thorn Whip on your turn, then Sentinel OA Thorn Whip if an enemy tries to move away. Plus Sanctuary as needed, to shield another party member and make the enemy refocus on you.

[JellyPooga]

I'm going to throw in my obligatory Rogue suggestion. Here's "Eight Reasons Rogues make great Tanks":

1) You look squishier than you are. Uncanny Dodge extends your HP more than you think, alleviating the need to expand your HP pool further. [Tanking by Allure]
2) Grappling with Athletics Expertise and Cunning Action stops a foe moving and puts them where you want them to be. [Active Tanking]
3) Sneak Attack makes you dangerous to ignore [Retributive Tanking]
4) Thief Rogue with Fast Hands can use equipment and manipulate terrain to their advantage as a bonus action. This can allow you to actively limit, hinder or block lines of attack to your companions without sacrificing your primary attack.
5) Sentinel on a Rogue is both tasty (off-turn Sneak Attack) and tanky (Zero Movement OA's).
6) Relatively resource free (perhaps the most resource free). No "I can only tank twice a day" dilemma.
7) Evasion means you can take friendly fire from AoE's better than anyone else without it. This lets you stay where you're needed.
8) Cunning action lets you get to where you're needed. No good being the best tank in the world if you're too slow or too cumbersome to be in the right place at the right time.

[LudicSavant]

I’m looking for a tank with the most interaction as possible.

I want to avoid things like the Tough or Resilience feats.

I want to avoid having a situation where I should only spend my level 1 spell slots on Shield, or I’m limited to just using Rage at the start of every important fight.

I want to have options to be a major nuisance for when the enemy decides that I’m not worth attacking (for example, high damage, Concentration, or a taunt-effect).

I want to act in preparation of what I expect my enemy to do (Ancestral Guardian), not wait for them to do what I want them to (Cavalier).

I want to play something who’s entire combat identity can’t be scripted on a computer made in Minecraft.


I think it’s a pretty difficult challenge. So…any takers?

What you want here is caster tanks, like Lore Bard tanks (yes, they're a thing) or Celestial Giftlock tanks (also a thing). They don't rely on their base stats or passive features to tank -- they go all the way from squishy to "eat your heart out, Zealot" based on making the correct decisions and counterplays.

Wizard tank builds have more options than any of the other caster tanks, and also some of the lowest base stats / passive stuff. And of those Wizard tank builds, the ones that aren't Abjurers will have more suppression elements than raw durability numbers tanking elements.

For example, Retvokers are kind of the epitome of the "do what I want or else" model of tanking (like so (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsYaiJgtMSQ)). Necromancers are very much about managing their minions and mastering Grim Harvest (it's possible to make it regenerate your entire health bar in a round, for example, but that's definitely not going to happen if you're being passive). Enchanters have to carefully redirect attacks and multi-task as they deny actions. There's a ton of skill expression in these tanks. But it also means that you have to be pretty good in order for them to show what they're made of, they're not beginner choices and are easy to 'screw up' if you don't know what you're doing.

People who haven't seen these kinds of things before and are just working on stereotypes like "Clerics are always just healbots" or "Wizards are always squishy" might be skeptical. But I can tell you that I've legit done stuff like replace a fallen Fighter and Paladin (I was replacing two players!) in a party, and the people in the campaign who hadn't seen me do this before were astounded I was shrugging off the kind of threats that wiped the floor with both of them using an Evoker on the front line. And then the DM basically dramatically upped the danger level of the campaign, and even nerfbatted it with houserules, and I was still just fine. It works, it works well, but it needs you to know exactly what you're doing, when, and why.

Which sounds like exactly what you want. Checks all these boxes.


I want to avoid things like the Tough or Resilience feats.


I want to avoid having a situation where I should only spend my level 1 spell slots on Shield, or I’m limited to just using Rage at the start of every important fight.


I want to have options to be a major nuisance for when the enemy decides that I’m not worth attacking (for example, high damage, Concentration, or a taunt-effect).


I want to act in preparation of what I expect my enemy to do (Ancestral Guardian), not wait for them to do what I want them to (Cavalier).


I want to play something who’s entire combat identity can’t be scripted on a computer made in Minecraft.

[x3n0n]

Divine Smite is almost always more efficient than most spells you can cast, and it's a pretty dumbfire tool to use.

FWIW, while Divine Smite is the *fastest* way to deal a lot of damage to one target, it's not very slot-efficient. If your party has long adventuring days, you'll still need to find other ways to contribute. (Divine Smite is still a useful panic button, of course, and also helps you tank by making you an obvious high-value target once you've zapped somebody.)

[Man_Over_Game]

FWIW, while Divine Smite is the *fastest* way to deal a lot of damage to one target, it's not very slot-efficient. If your party has long adventuring days, you'll still need to find other ways to contribute. (Divine Smite is still a useful panic button, of course, and also helps you tank by making you an obvious high-value target once you've zapped somebody.)

Divine Smite has a 100% hit chance, costs no actions, and uses no Concentration. Outside of casting some spells in perfect circumstances (Sleep at low levels, wall spells, etc), it's pretty hard to get more value than that.

Even Healing Word only heals 1d4+Mod as a Bonus Action, and that's pretty crummy in comparison (for what's considered the best healing spell).

[LudicSavant]

Even Healing Word only heals 1d4+Mod as a Bonus Action, and that's pretty crummy in comparison (for what's considered the best healing spell).

The number of hit points isn't what makes Healing Word good.

Healing Word is considered a great healing spell because you exchange a bonus action in order to give a PC all of their actions and a fresh death gate, which is indeed more value than a Divine Smite in many scenarios.

[x3n0n]

Divine Smite has a 100% hit chance, costs no actions, and uses no Concentration. Outside of casting some spells in perfect circumstances (Sleep at low levels, wall spells, etc), it's pretty hard to get more value than that.

It's a lot of damage to one target: (1+slotlevel)d8 in one of the best damage types. That's a pretty sweet rate, assuming that's what you need: Xd8 radiant damage to this guy in melee range who you've already hit, right now. Major bonus points if it was a crit.

If that's *not* what you need, maybe you'd get more value out of a Spirit Shroud or a Cause Fear, or even keeping that slot for later and hitting the next guy with it. (Edit: or Healing Word on your downed ally who will get up and attack 3 times. Edit edit: which isn't a Paladin spell; derp.)

[Nidgit]

But I'll agree that a Heavy Armor Nature Cleric with Warcaster and Sentinel would be a solid traditional "front line" tank, and rather SAD too (especially if you're a Dwarf). Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + Dodge Action or Thorn Whip on your turn, then Sentinel OA Thorn Whip if an enemy tries to move away. Plus Sanctuary as needed, to shield another party member and make the enemy refocus on you.
Allow me to add to this: Swarmkeeper Ranger 3. Use Thorn Whip and on a failed Strength save you pull your target 25(!) feet toward you to the center of your Spirit Guardians. Plus, Druidic Warrior means you're free to take a different Domain if you want. Light jumps out as a good option given the chance to impose disadvantage on attacks against yourself or allies, though Forge is also great for tankiness.

I don't think you need Sentinel either- a successful OA Thorn Whip means an enemy already needs 40 feet of movement to escape Spirit Guardians and that's going to cover most of what you'll fight. Not to mention that you can just pull them back in on the next turn.

[x3n0n]

if you have a quarterstaff, your OA range is 10 feet.

The rest of your post made sense to me, but I don't know what you mean here. Neither quarterstaff nor spear has reach 10.

[Nidgit]

The rest of your post made sense to me, but I don't know what you mean here. Neither quarterstaff nor spear has reach 10.
My mistake, I thought everything covered by PAM had a 10 foot reach. 40 feet's not quite as impressive but still good.

[Justin Sane]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Arcana Cleric Frontliner (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds) yet.

[Nefariis]

I'm with Ludic on the Lore Bard

Paladin 6 (any) / Lore Bard 14 Compelled duel (for level 1 spell), 4 magical secrets, auras, cutting words, lay on hands, smite

Plus you will be useful out of combat too with jack of all trades and expertise in two skills

[Kane0]

Seconding ancestral echo or conqadin, maybe with some BM thrown in.

[arnin77]

I also support Conquest Paladin. Fearing the room, spiritual weapon attack and moving to within 10’, Halberd to the face with a smite is pretty fun. If I had a redo, I’d build mine a bit different though (I went vHuman res con, +2 cha, +2 cha)

I would suggest fallen aasimar, 17 cha; menacing at 4, +2 cha at 8. It might be leaning heavily into fear but when you need to, you can own the room.

Their second channel divinity suggests GWM but I’m not too sure how to make that work; I just use it if the enemy is unable to be feared and I want to land a powerful smite.

[Greywander]

I haven't seen anyone mention the Artillerist artificer. Your cannons last for up to an hour, you get one free cannon per long rest, and then only burn a 1st level slot to make another. Basically, it's not hard to make sure the cannon is up for every single encounter throughout the day. The temp HP granted by the protector isn't massive, but you can give it out every round at just the cost of a BA, leaving you to do anything else with your action. The cannon has a short range of only 10 feet, but it does give the temp HP to all your allies in that range, meaning you're more resilient to AoEs. At higher levels, your cannon will also give half cover, adding +2 to AC and DEX saves for those within the radius. You can also make two cannons later on, and while the protector doesn't stack with itself, you could use either of the offensive cannons to make the enemies' lives that much harder.

The thing with the Artillerist is that it's so simple that it doesn't require any real thought beyond positioning (which is important, so don't underestimate that). Just drop the cannon and spam that temp HP every round. On the other hand, you still have your action, so you can do a lot more interesting stuff using your action while maintaining that temp HP spam. Enemies either need to power through the temp HP to down someone, focus you down so you stop spamming temp HP, or destroy the cannon. Any of these are a win for you, as you're directly reducing the damage the party is taking, and in fact ignoring you is probably the worst choice enemies can make, unless they have really strong attacks that will down a party member quickly, with or without temp HP.

Honestly, the tanking dream team is probably something like an Artillerist artificer, a Redemption or Conquest paladin, and a Peace or Life cleric. Artillerist hands out temp HP and (later) buffs AC, paladin buffs saves. Redemption pally or Peace cleric spreads damage around, or Conquest pally locks down groups of enemies with fear, and Life cleric tops off any actual damage that makes it past the temp HP. For a fourth member, maybe a grappler of some kind who will lock down the most dangerous enemy on the field. Or a caster of some kind with lots of good control spells. Really, tanking should be a team effort, not the job of a single character.

Before someone else mentions it, yes, the Artillerist's protector cannon is basically the same gimmick as the Twilight cleric's channel divinity. The difference is that the cleric's ability is more powerful but more limited in use and lasts only a short while. I like the artificer because you can easily have it up all the time. The channel divinity is about blowing it on a tough fight to shift the odds in your favor, while the cannon is about making every fight easier so that you (the party) don't expend as many resources and thus have more to blow on the tough fights.

[quindraco]

The force ballista can be a surprisingly useful cannon, because you only have disadvantage with its attacks while *you're* within 5 feet of a hostile. If you hand your ballista to the melee party member, you can fire it at 5 foot range without disadvantage, and push whatever was bothering them away.

[Maan]

There's a ton of skill expression in these tanks. But it also means that you have to be pretty good in order for them to show what they're made of, they're not beginner choices and are easy to 'screw up' if you don't know what you're doing.
Ok, now I want you to make a new thread. Something along the lines of "Ludic's guide to tactical lateral thinking in D&D5e".

[da newt]

I think a warlock could be an interesting 'tank.'

With repelling blast and lance of lethargy and a well placed AoE spell that slows folks down (party provided or self) ...

Fathomless is probably the best subclass for that with tentacle of the deep, sleet storm, guardian coil and grasping tentacles.

But AG Barb or any temp HP spammer can also make great whole party tanks. A Twilight Cleric w/ spirit guardians up and tossing temp hp at everyone is tough to beat for effectiveness.

[Glorthindel]

The problem here is that at some point this is just going to be a question of crowd control, since that's really the best way to 'tank.' for that challenge I'd probably build something pretty basic like:

Dragonborn Conquest Paladin
16/12/14/8/8/16
Interception Style
ASI 1: dragon fear (+1 CHA)
ASI 2: Skill Expert (Athletics, +1 CHA)
ASI 3: Shield Master
ASI 4: CHA + 2

this give you a variety of options to control space around your party. Firstly, you're on a horse so you're highly mobile, giving you the capacity to select targets at will. Secondly you have like four sources of mass AOE fear, all with different nuance, most of which come back on a short rest. Dragon fear is my fav because it's completely unbreakable unless you damage them (note, you can still knock them prone without breaking the fear). Thirdly if there's a single high-priority target you can knock them down and then hit them with something like wrathful smite which places them in the wonderful state of "speed is zero and I am prone." (bonus, they're prone so they can't use ranged weapons) Your AC is good and you can give yourself tHP through AoA which makes you particularly good at holding a narrow passage way against numerous weaker enemies and also buffs your horse. Interception allows you to buff allied defenses (or your own, or your horse's) and keep more people alive. Sure its only 1d10 per turn


Definitely support this, the combination of multiple AOE fears (with even more uses if you get to use the new Dragonborn UA) and the Aura of Conquest can really lock down even the more difficult to control encounters (in my last session i was able to shield the party Wizard from multiple flying enemies in an open battlefield through fear and positioning). Sure, many people will dislike this on reflex as it does require you to sometimes forgo a smite (though oddly enough, not as often as you might think), but it is well worth it, and it definitely feels like a tank.

[Unoriginal]

If you fear that the Open Hand Monk is too squishy to tank and don't think Sentinel is worthwhile, a neat combo is this:

Make a Dwarf Open Hand Monk, and ASAP take the feat Dwarven Fortitude. Monks can Dodge as a bonus action, which means you can heal as a bonus action with DF.



Alternatively, Psi Warrior can make an interesting tank since they can both do a protective field and move their allies around, on top of their offensive and personal mobility powers and the typical Fighter toolkit.

A Rune Knight could also be geared to be a tank, maybe with a multiclass. With Sword Bard, maybe? Would be hard to ignore, at least.

[Mastikator]

In a recent game a druid was an exceptionally good tank, not by tanking directly but by summoning hoards of animals. The bears she summoned provided body blocking and absorbed a bunch of attacks that otherwise would've hit the PCs. I think she went with Circle of the Shepard. It was extremely effective. (it worked well probably because most of the party were primary casters/ranged classes and didn't need to compete with the animals for space. If the party had consisted of nothing but melee warriors it would've been bad and unnecessary)
While the summons did the tanking she did normal druid stuff (cantrips, wild shape, etc).

[Justin Sane]

The Echo Knight + Ancestral Barb dip over in the eclectic builds thread is pretty boss. In addition to the Ancestral nuisance tag, you're shuffling your echo all over the place and swapping places with it.

Also, you get to annoy the party with endless clone puns.Okay, I've read the entire thread 3 times now, and I'm either blind or that build isn't there. Could I have a link, please?

[Man_Over_Game]

Okay, I've read the entire thread 3 times now, and I'm either blind or that build isn't there. Could I have a link, please?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511

But I'll save you some reading:

3 Ancestral Guardian + 3 Echo Knight.

Go more Echo Knight if you like more damage, go more AG if you like more tanking. It's a very flexible build that's hard to build incorrectly as long as you know what you want out of it.

His example goes with more EchoK and GWM for lots of burst damage.

Personally, I like the tanking element, so I'd make myself as annoying of a target I can be by getting more AG (keeps your Echo alive longer) and PAM for retaliation against those that try to engage me.

[da newt]

I think an Aarokocra Dex AG Barb with a long bow would be a fine 'tank' too. A dip for Archery FS and then flavor to taste ...

[Man_Over_Game]

I think an Aarokocra Dex AG Barb with a long bow would be a fine 'tank' too. A dip for Archery FS and then flavor to taste ...

I mean, if you can fly, you don't really need a ranged weapon, just Reach. Few enemies have Reach to deal with it.

One of my personal favorites was Drunken Master + AG. Dive in, Flurry of Blows Recklessly, Dive out. Monks are naturally adept at flight, since they can Deflect Missiles and have Slowfall, and Deflect Blows is twice as powerful with Barbarian Rage.

[Frogreaver]

I’m a big fan of barbarian rogue tanks. As such I suggest ancestral barbarian / swashbuckler rogue.

The swashbuckler rogue adds much needed mobility and provides a high damage OA.

One can bonus action dash to an enemy, hit it then move beside another unengaged enemy so that your OA becomes a factor in its decisions.

[Man_Over_Game]

I’m a big fan of barbarian rogue tanks. As such I suggest ancestral barbarian / swashbuckler rogue.

The swashbuckler rogue adds much needed mobility and provides a high damage OA.

One can bonus action dash to an enemy, hit it then move beside another unengaged enemy so that your OA becomes a factor in its decisions.

Problem is, with my experience, the person that dies first is almost always the one with the most HP, and 5e is a game where folks are at 100% efficiency with 1% HP. So the winning strategy is to divide your damage evenly across the party (trying to account for Concentration, of course), so that everyone dies at the same time.

This means that an AG should probably be figuring out how to keep himself alive for as long as possible. If he needs to change his strategy, he can just dive in and start attacking recklessly halfway through while his friends take a breather.

I am a big fan of Swashbucklers with Sentinel, tho. Tack on 2 levels of Wizard for Bladesinger, and now you've caught them in a nice catch-22, where they have no good options (as you can just fortify yourself with Shield if they decide to target you).

[Frogreaver]

Problem is, with my experience, the person that dies first is almost always the one with the most HP, and 5e is a game where folks are at 100% efficiency with 1% HP. So the winning strategy is to divide your damage evenly across the party (trying to account for Concentration, of course), so that everyone dies at the same time.

This means that an AG should probably be figuring out how to keep himself alive for as long as possible. If he needs to change his strategy, he can just dive in and start attacking recklessly halfway through while his friends take a breather.

You also have the mobility to move in strike and move away - especially when allies are already engaged or the enemy lacks much movement.

IMO your criticism doesn’t apply to this build.

[Man_Over_Game]

You also have the mobility to move in strike and move away - especially when allies are already engaged or the enemy lacks much movement.

IMO your criticism doesn’t apply to this build.

No, you're right, you make a really good point. Adding that BA dash and what's essentially the Mobile feat with just 1 more level of Rogue really adds a lot. It's not like Barbarians are going to be using their Bonus Action for much (without PAM, anyway).

I'm a little worried about how expensive it is (3 levels), but I think the extra Rogue damage would probably make up for it.

Also, uh...sorry if I sounded like a jerk. It's a bad habit that I'm trying to work on.

[LudicSavant]

Ok, now I want you to make a new thread. Something along the lines of "Ludic's guide to tactical lateral thinking in D&D5e".

:smallbiggrin:

Can you elaborate on what you'd like me to cover in such a guide?

The narrower the scope, the more likely I am to have time to actually write such a thread.

[RogueJK]

I just wanna know what the "Retvoker" build is. :smallbiggrin:

You've mentioned it in several threads about tanks, but I can't find an explanation, nor is Google helpful with that term.

[LudicSavant]

I just wanna know what the "Retvoker" build is. :smallbiggrin:

It's basically a Hexvoker that decided it wanted to stand in front of the party.

You already have medium armor + shield + Shield + tons of other defensive spell resources. Your "passive" base hp is low but your "active" defenses are strong (and you can buff your HP with stuff like Armor of Agathys if you want to). You also can qualify for Inspiring Leader since Hexvokers take 13 Cha to qualify for Hexblade.

As I have often said for tanks, your goal is to make the enemy's decision tree suck. In this case, all of their options are made of lava.

For example, taking stuff like Flames of Phlegethos / Fire Shield / Armor of Agathys / Hellish Rebuke / Overchannel / Hexblade's Curse can make the "target you with a melee attack" option rather, uh, suicidal. As if the Eldritch-Knight-like AC wasn't already a deterrent.

You can make the "target an ally instead" option suck by, say... having your friends stand inside of a Sculpted Sickening Radiance, Counterspelling something targeting them, Curse Magic Missiling (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/908469121502736384) the person who tries to walk away from you with Warcaster so that they explode into giblets if they try to attack someone other than you, disengaging allies with Telekinetic bonus actions, that sort of thing.

This is just a short sampling of the options -- as usual, Wizard builds have so many tricks that I cannot list them all in a reasonable-length post.

It's very much about embracing the idea of... kind of like how while Sentinel says "you cannot move," but Booming Blade says "moving is a trap option." It is for the player who likes to grin and say "you activated my trap card" any time someone tries to hurt you or your allies. But you also have to make sure you're playing the right trap cards, at the right times, in a resource-efficient manner. Very not passive.

[Maan]

Can you elaborate on what you'd like me to cover in such a guide?
The narrower the scope, the more likely I am to have time to actually write such a thread.
Joking aside, what about a generic thread like the one you did for your builds?
It could become a place to post examples of less obvious tactics, unsual builds in action (like you said, it's not so much about the build but about what you actually do with it) and/or tactics most players wouldn't think of.
I for one would love it! :smallsmile:

[Mobius Twist]

How about this mid-level monstrocity?

Artificer-Battlesmith 5/Fighter-Psi Knight 3

You get: Medium Armor, Shields, Martial Weapons, two attacks, Full artificer level 1 spell list (~5 spells/day + rituals), Intelligence-based attacks, a bonus-attack companion that (on its own reaction) can force disadvantage on an attack, that same companion that makes its attack (or help, or grapple, or knockdown) with your bonus action, a +1 magical Heavy crossbow that ignores the Loading property, Archery fighting style, psionics-based damage interception (as your reaction), Jedi force-push, Action Surge, and the Shield spell.

You also utilize your attack, move, bonus, and reaction, potentially every single turn.

Sure, you miss a few extra flavorful Artificer bits and bobs, but if you campaign goes from levels 1-12, you'll contribute handily across most of them with both damage, team defense, and even some control thanks to your spells and psionics.

[Theodoxus]

What you want here is caster tanks, like Lore Bard tanks (yes, they're a thing) or Celestial Giftlock tanks (also a thing). They don't rely on their base stats or passive features to tank -- they go all the way from squishy to "eat your heart out, Zealot" based on making the correct decisions and counterplays.

Wizard tank builds have more options than any of the other caster tanks, and also some of the lowest base stats / passive stuff. And of those Wizard tank builds, the ones that aren't Abjurers will have more suppression elements than raw durability numbers tanking elements.

For example, Retvokers are kind of the epitome of the "do what I want or else" model of tanking (like so (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsYaiJgtMSQ)). Necromancers are very much about managing their minions and mastering Grim Harvest (it's possible to make it regenerate your entire health bar in a round, for example, but that's definitely not going to happen if you're being passive). Enchanters have to carefully redirect attacks and multi-task as they deny actions. There's a ton of skill expression in these tanks. But it also means that you have to be pretty good in order for them to show what they're made of, they're not beginner choices and are easy to 'screw up' if you don't know what you're doing.

People who haven't seen these kinds of things before and are just working on stereotypes like "Clerics are always just healbots" or "Wizards are always squishy" might be skeptical. But I can tell you that I've legit done stuff like replace a fallen Fighter and Paladin (I was replacing two players!) in a party, and the people in the campaign who hadn't seen me do this before were astounded I was shrugging off the kind of threats that wiped the floor with both of them using an Evoker on the front line. And then the DM basically dramatically upped the danger level of the campaign, and even nerfbatted it with houserules, and I was still just fine. It works, it works well, but it needs you to know exactly what you're doing, when, and why.

Which sounds like exactly what you want. Checks all these boxes.


Ok, now I want you to make a new thread. Something along the lines of "Ludic's guide to tactical lateral thinking in D&D5e".


:smallbiggrin:

Can you elaborate on what you'd like me to cover in such a guide?

The narrower the scope, the more likely I am to have time to actually write such a thread.


Joking aside, what about a generic thread like the one you did for your builds?
It could become a place to post examples of less obvious tactics, unsual builds in action (like you said, it's not so much about the build but about what you actually do with it) and/or tactics most players wouldn't think of.
I for one would love it! :smallsmile:

I would too.

I read your first post LS, and I was like "well, yeah, you can SAY whatever you want. I want to see such things in action." You've definitely piqued my interest - and while I tend to be more of a fan of passive effects, sometimes I like to really follow the minutia of combat and try to bring a bit more active expertise to the table; not just tried and trued options that everyone in AL already knows, but some fun builds that would actually bring a wow moment to the evening.

Of course, if you're keeping your best ideas close to the vest, I totally get that too.

[LudicSavant]

I would too.

I read your first post LS, and I was like "well, yeah, you can SAY whatever you want. I want to see such things in action." You've definitely piqued my interest - and while I tend to be more of a fan of passive effects, sometimes I like to really follow the minutia of combat and try to bring a bit more active expertise to the table; not just tried and trued options that everyone in AL already knows, but some fun builds that would actually bring a wow moment to the evening.

Of course, if you're keeping your best ideas close to the vest, I totally get that too.

Which one would you like to see in action?

I wrote up some specific tactics for Evokers here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625274-How-to-optimize-Evokers).

I did a breakdown of running through a challenge dungeon scenario MaxWilson set up with a very durable Giftlock recently. I posted a link to it here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25022805&postcount=1086). Though I think said challenge had too many short rests, so I basically only used a small fraction of my resources in each encounter (e.g. you could have done basically the same thing I laid out with far fewer short rests).