Consistent Charging

[GuestEleven]

I'm doing the super nasty charging Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker build in an upcoming 3.5/PF game. I'm powering it down a little that way I won't be a horrible problem for the DM, so I'll spare you guys all the messy details of what I have for the build so far. All I'm really looking for is how to consistently be able to charge every turn without getting myself killed, most versions of the charge build wipe any book monster off the map first turn so I don't see any emphasis on being able to charge often rather just maximizing one charge. What I'm really wondering is if I can use the Battle Jump feat to leap above an opponent and just fall charge them every turn or if I need to do something else. Additionally any charge feats that will help me circumvent terrain issues would be nice.

All Pathfinder and 3.5 official material allowed except ToB. No homebrew, no 3rd party.

[Maat Mons]

The Travel Devotion feat, from Complete Champion, is one way. On the first round, you activate the feat as a swift action and charge into battle. On subsequent rounds, you use the swift-action movement given to you by the feat to put a little distance between you and your opponent, and then you charge again.

Boots of the Battle Charger, from Magic Item Compendium are another way. They let you charge as a standard action 2/day. So you take a move action to back away, and then do a standard-action charge.

The most universal answer for difficult terrain is flight. Plus, if you can fly, you can charge flying enemies.

[GuestEleven]

Boots of the Battle Charger, from Magic Item Compendium are another way. They let you charge as a standard action 2/day. So you take a move action to back away, and then do a standard-action charge..

These are really nice, and so cheap!

[Rebel7284]

Drunken Master's Stagger is the only way that I know of to get a guaranteed charge every turn since you can just keep charging in a circle. Takes some build resources to enter and eats two levels, although there is a barbarian ACF that gives you Improved Unarmed Strike, so that helps.

Typically, I see swift action movement being used for reliably charging, often in combination with jumping/flight to avoid difficult terrain.

- Warblade dip for Sudden Leap (and that maneuver to replace your will save)
- Carry around a couple of Anklets of Translocation and swap them after each battle
- Belt of Battle gives a free move 3/day OR will give you an extra full attack at the end of the charge and you can also get multiples
- Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker is also only 500gp and can be added to other throat slot items as per the guidelines of combining magic items.
- Travel Devotion feat (ideally with a way to get Turn/Rebuke Undead)

In addition, you are allowed to jump as part of a charge which helps avoid many obstacles (and indeed need to jump to trigger Leap Attack)

Typically the logic is that with a few of those methods to move as a swift action (and sufficient jump checks), you can get into position to charge reliably enough, even if it's not 100%.

As far as Battle Jump, it's worded REALLY poorly and your DM will need to decide what it means if you want to take it.
- One reading is that it lets you charge as a free action whenever you would fall, so if you fly up 10 feet, fall, fly up another 10 feet, fall, repeat until you run out of movement, you would get that many full attacks. This is a silly reading and not appropriate for most games.
- One reading is that it gives you a charge as a move action as long as that move action involves dropping onto an opponent. This can give you two full attacks per turn, but is a little less broken than the first reading.
- Another reading, and probably intended, is that you still need a full round action to execute a charge, however, instead of the usual movement requirements, the text of Battle Jump applies.

I think, assuming a more conservative reading of Battle Jump is used, just getting flight and then doing a dive attack is simpler.

Edit: Also, the rules are perfectly okay with jumping mid-dive to trigger both Leap Attack and diving multipliers. What that ACTUALLY looks like is up to you. A bit physics defying for sure.

[GuestEleven]

- Warblade dip for Sudden Leap (and that maneuver to replace your will save)

ToB off limits. :smallfrown: Everything else looks really good.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I have some difficulty understanding why ToB is off-limit when you have core druid, incantatrix, planar shepherd, BoVD, and freaking Pun-Pun allowed but ok

[Lilapop]

Keep in mind that most ways to move away and charge back still make you provoke AoOs on moving away - and you can't assume the original target to be already dead and the next target to not be adjacent, otherwise you'd just charge the next directly. So either select your additional movement based on it not provoking, or invest into some kind of defense to survive that additional punishment. Which is probably miss chances, whatwith AC being a lost cause on a shocktrooper and all that.

Another limitation of charging is the straight line and no difficult terrain thing. You'll be able to circumvent a lot of it by just jumping (by the time this build gets going, you should autosucceed on a 10 ft jump without a running start). Otherwise there's Streetfighter 7 (Cityscape WE) and Nimble Charge (skill trick from Complete Scoundrel) each giving you a 90° turn, as well as a variety of options to ignore difficult terrain (some boots from MiC, that one setting sun stance if your DM can be convinced to let melees have nice things, etc).

To your Battle Jump question, the feat could be read this way, but high jump DCs are a bit of a different league than long jumps. Assuming a 3 meter height for some nonspecific large biped, and assuming you have to get your entire body above the threshold, we're already looking at DC 120.

On the side, I hope you also have a solution for Frenzied Zerker's friendly fire issues.

[GuestEleven]

Another limitation of charging is the straight line and no difficult terrain thing. You'll be able to circumvent a lot of it by just jumping (by the time this build gets going, you should autosucceed on a 10 ft jump without a running start). Otherwise there's Streetfighter 7 (Cityscape WE) and Nimble Charge (skill trick from Complete Scoundrel) each giving you a 90° turn, as well as a variety of options to ignore difficult terrain (some boots from MiC, that one setting sun stance if your DM can be convinced to let melees have nice things, etc).

To your Battle Jump question, the feat could be read this way, but high jump DCs are a bit of a different league than long jumps. Assuming a 3 meter height for some nonspecific large biped, and assuming you have to get your entire body above the threshold, we're already looking at DC 120.

On the side, I hope you also have a solution for Frenzied Zerker's friendly fire issues.

Yeah, I just found Nimble Charge a bit ago, very helpful. I really don't understand how the gap between a high jump and long jump are so incredibly massive, obviously a high jump would be much harder but considering PCs have fantasy hero levels of strength it feels a tad excessive. DM ruled that Righteous Wrath from BoED applies to Frenzy. :smallcool:


I have some difficulty understanding why ToB is off-limit when you have core druid, incantatrix, planar shepherd, BoVD, and freaking Pun-Pun allowed but ok

I never really understood it either. I feel like long before I ever joined this playgroup someone brought a ToB character to the table without anyone actually knowing what it was and wiped the floor with everything, followed by the group sealing the book away forever.

[Anthrowhale]

There's another skill trick (Twisted Charge) which might be occasionally useful (...and skill tricks are cheap).

[Darg]

Yeah, I just found Nimble Charge a bit ago, very helpful. I really don't understand how the gap between a high jump and long jump are so incredibly massive, obviously a high jump would be much harder but considering PCs have fantasy hero levels of strength it feels a tad excessive. DM ruled that Righteous Wrath from BoED applies to Frenzy. :smallcool:

They seem very accurate to human limitations. Even though the high jump record is 8ft, that isn't laden with gear nor are you flipping your body over a pole. The long jump record is 29ft with the same restrictions. You can have up to 23 ranks, +4 per 10ft speed over 30, str mod, and other bonuses such as skill focus, run feat, and skill synergy. You only need to beat a DC 30/32 to be better than the best Olympic athletes. If you aren't jumping in combat you can even take 10 for a consistent jumping experience. Personally I think it's fine as PCs are exceptional humanlike beings and are very easily super human.

Personally, I like the duelist as a charger. You get acrobatic charge at 6 to allow charging through difficult terrain and at 7 you start adding your class level to your AC while fighting defensively which works extremely well with Shock Trooper or running into the thick of things. Take armored savant ACF at fighter 1 and then you can have light weight mithril full plate for even more protection and unhindered movement. The ACF also works really well for a 1 level dip for rangers or to play a tempest.

[Rebel7284]

Some extra notes:

Dragonborn Water Orc is one of the more solid races since you get flight (with explicit text about diving to boot!), lose the light sensitivity, and still qualify for Headlong Rush. Also REAL solid stats. +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, −2 everything else.

Neraphim get a special charge that denies Dex to AC. Fun trick, but probably not worth it unless you have a way of abusing the outsider type.

Benign Transposition is a level 1 spell and can be REAL good for setting up charges if you have a caster around.

[Xervous]

I never really understood it either. I feel like long before I ever joined this playgroup someone brought a ToB character to the table without anyone actually knowing what it was and wiped the floor with everything, followed by the group sealing the book away forever.

Something tells me even a consistent, non abusive charger may be too much for the group.

[Elves]

These are really nice, and so cheap!
Those are so good. You should have at least 4 pairs and change after every encounter.

They combine well with move action abilities, check here for some ideas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?403739-Alternate-Uses-of-Move-Actions). Starting bardic music, activating travel devotion and charging all in the first round could be cool.

[GuestEleven]

They seem very accurate to human limitations. Even though the high jump record is 8ft, that isn't laden with gear nor are you flipping your body over a pole. The long jump record is 29ft with the same restrictions.

Wow, I didn't realize the difference was so vast. Guess that makes the checks more accurate to real life.


Something tells me even a consistent, non abusive charger may be too much for the group.

Probably. :smallbiggrin:


check here for some ideas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?403739-Alternate-Uses-of-Move-Actions). .

Very helpful list, thank you!

[Darg]

Wow, I didn't realize the difference was so vast. Guess that makes the checks more accurate to real life.

I find a lot of people think super human in superhero terms and don't realize that it doesn't actually take much to be extraordinary. To be fair, by the time you start being able to perform these extreme feats, magic tends to reduce the necessity of or trivialize such things.

[MinimanMidget]

there is a barbarian ACF that gives you Improved Unarmed Strike, if that helps.

Ooooh, that would really help out a build I'm working on, but I can't find it. Source please?

[Darg]

Ooooh, that would really help out a build I'm working on, but I can't find it. Source please?

It's the city brawler ACF. Google says it's from Dragon #349 pg 92.

[MinimanMidget]

It's the city brawler ACF. Google says it's from Dragon #349 pg 92.

Ah, thanks. Dragon is a bit of a blind spot for me.