Yundu's dagger thing in 5e, dm help

[Houster]

I'm starting a campaign as the dm, and one of the players is a rogue and asked for a magical dagger, which has significance in his backround.
He liked the imagery of yondu's flying dagger in guardians of the galaxy(the one that he whistles to activate).
I want to recreate that dagger and give the player the imagery he wants, but not to a game breaking degree, like in the movie, a dagger that can headshot 30 enemies in 1 round... that's too much.
The flying movement , the whistling , the multiple cuts... that's an imagery I would like to create for my player.

How would you best design such an item?
My party starts at level 6.

Thanks!

[swamp_slug]

You might want to model it on the Dancing Sword, although I would tweak it to bring it in line with an uncommon or rare item, maybe changing it to an action to activate/control.

The big question you have to ask yourself is if you would allow Sneak Attack damage to be dealt by the dagger while flying or not.

[Houster]

You might want to model it on the Dancing Sword, although I would tweak it to bring it in line with an uncommon or rare item, maybe changing it to an action to activate/control.

The big question you have to ask yourself is if you would allow Sneak Attack damage to be dealt by the dagger while flying or not.

Actually, the dancing sword on a bonus action is broken you think? It will be similar to having two weapon fighting(assuming my player will have another mundane dagger in the other hand) with one of the weapons with the returning feature. Strong, but I don't think it's broken.

I think it has to have sneak attack enabled. But still restrict it to 1 sneak per turn, I don't see how that's bad.

[EggKookoo]

My daughter, watching GotG 2 a few weeks back, said "I want that in D&D." Got me thinking about it.

You could go with something simple. Make it a ranged magical weapon that does like 1d8 (+ dex mod) piercing damage. If the PC has Extra Attack, you can get the kind of multi-hit thing you see in the movies, but balanced like a regular weapon. You could even say it crits on a 19-20 just to convey the kind of scariness people display toward it in the movie without really blowing its power out of proportion.

I might go down a different path. Make the weapon harder (for a conventional martial) to use, but with more payoff if used well. Instead of making an attack, the PC uses its action to strike at all creatures within, say, 60 feet, like an AoE. Each creature must make a dexterity check or take 2d6 piercing damage (no damage on a success, negating Evasion, which might not be what you want so you could tweak that). But the kicker is, the DC for the dex save is based on the wielder's charisma, like a spell save DC. So 10 + cha mod, and if the wielder is proficient in Performance (whistling), + proficiency bonus.

This second version is like a beefed-up version of volley and would make a pretty powerful magic item if the PC has a decent charisma and/or proficiency in Performance. If you're giving it to a tier 1 PC maybe it does less damage. Or the range is 30 feet. Or you can still treat it like a single-target ranged attack but the PC can do the AoE version only a limited number of times per day or between rests, or it has charges?

Another thing, if you're limiting uses of features, is that maybe on a critical the target makes a con save or is stunned. That might model everyone dropping when Yondu hits them -- they're not insta-killed, they're stunned.

[Kane0]

Could just be a dart that they enhance by being a bladelock or EK fighter, BA whistle to return to you after you ‘throw’ it.

[swamp_slug]

Actually, the dancing sword on a bonus action is broken you think? It will be similar to having two weapon fighting(assuming my player will have another mundane dagger in the other hand) with one of the weapons with the returning feature. Strong, but I don't think it's broken.

I think it has to have sneak attack enabled. But still restrict it to 1 sneak per turn, I don't see how that's bad.

It's not broken, it's more that the Dancing Sword is a Very Rare item, which is very powerful for 6th level characters. Page 135 of the DMG advises that Very Rare items should not be given to characters below 11th level, although as the preceding paragraphs indicate, these are guidelines not hard and fast rules, so if you are happy with your player having an item that powerful then go for it.

My suggestion of downgrading the action type was more an idea about reducing the power and thus rarity to bring it more in line with the game's expectations. By using an action to control, the character's damage output is reduced and they must make a potentially difficult decision about what to do on their turn. It also encourages the player to use it as their primary weapon in line with their concept.

Regarding sneak attack, allowing the item to benefit from it is not bad it just has factors to consider. Normally a rogue attacking while hidden would have advantage on the attack and therefore be eligible for sneak attack, however, since their weapon now attacks independently of the rogue's position and the weapon may not be hidden, should the attack have advantage (and sneak attack) in this scenario? This is another example of the power of the weapon, it does not specifically require you to see the targets, meaning the wielder can be behind total cover and still be fully effective in combat.

I should make it clear that I am not trying to argue in favour of any one approach, I'm just raising questions that you as the DM should consider before you give them the item.

[Aett_Thorn]

Would the player be interested in going Soul Knife? They get psychic daggers that they can throw that could easily be fluffed this way, and then the magic item you give them could be more like Yondu’s fin, allowing for longer range or a chance to reroll a miss.

[BoutsofInsanity]

The Dagger needs to start weaker compared to what it can be at later levels. I would do the following. Tell your player as he levels up he can continue to upgrade the dagger to do more and more things before it finally becomes his main weapon around level 8 or so.

I would do something like this.


Yondu's Dagger - Wondrous Item - Ioun Stone - Level 1


This magical dagger is marked with runes and made with great care. It is powered by a tiny wind sprite who likes nothing more than to pilot her "Wind Ship" and murdering enemies.

The dagger requires precise whistling practices by Attuning with the dagger over the period of a short rest and communicating with the Wind Sprite "Pilot". She wears a tiny helmet, refers to the wielder with whistles as "Boss" or "Mission Control".

Once attuned the dagger floats around the body of the person occasionally going to chill in the pocket or holster. If lost, the dagger will return to the wielder in 1d4 days.

As a bonus action the wielder can whistle an attack and have the dagger fly out to a range of 60/120 feet and make an attack roll against a target. 8+Dex+Proficiency. On a successful hit the dagger deals 1d4+dexterity in piercing damage. It takes till the end of the wielder's next turn to return from it's mission and be used again. (AC 18 with 10 hit points). If damaged or "Destroyed" the dagger takes 1d4 days for the Windsprite to repair her vessel and get it operational again.

This does not count as a ranged weapon for feats and sneak attacks.

-----------

At higher levels the following should occur.

Level 5 - The Dagger has AC 20 and 20 hit points and no longer needs to return to the wielder to be used, and can be used every round and counts as a magical weapon.

Level 10 - The Dagger has an AC 22 and 25 hit points - It counts as a weapon for feats and sneak attack, it's damage goes to 1d8, and can now be used as a weapon for weapon attacks not just as a bonus action. It's range increases to 120/300 feet and is +1.

Level 15 - The dagger has an AC 25 and 50 hit points - It does 1d12 piercing damage, does an extra 14 damage on a critical hit and is +2. It also rolls max damage against objects for damage.

Level 20 - The dagger has an AC of 25 and 70 hit points - it now when it kills an enemy can once per turn make an attack against a target within 30 feet of it, it counts as adamantine, range of 600, and deals 2d12 damage.

[Houster]

Thanks everyone!

The AoE thing sounds great. For like... twice a day, I think maybe 2 or 3 d6, and prone(up to large creatures), dex save for nothing, in 30 or 60 ft... no friendly fire.
The save dc as you suggested, will be 8+cha+prof.

And in addition i'm thinking making it just a returning weapon, not dancing, to not make things complicated, and I think that creates better image of yondu's attacks, the dagger always returns to him, can't remember long periods of time when it's waiting in the air(and not attacking).

Maybe i'll make it "awakened" sometimes in the future- maybe adding a bonus action attack, upping the AoE damage to 5d6, and making enemy movement 0 in addition to prone, until the start of your next turn.

[EggKookoo]

Yeah, so I think I'd go with the dual-mode approach. You can use it as a single-target weapon attack or the AoE thing with limited uses.

For the weapon attack, it's considered a ranged weapon attack but your attack and damage modifier is your charisma mod rather than your dex. You have proficiency with the weapon if you are proficient in Performance, and there is a verbal component to using the weapon (whistling, humming, even singing) as with a spell. The base damage is 1d8 piercing. If the attack is a critical hit, the target must make a DC 12 constitution save or be stunned until the end of its next turn. Range is 30/60'. The weapon returns to you at the end of your turn.

For the AoE, you select a number of creatures within 45 feet up to your charisma modifier (minimum of 1). Each creature must make a dexterity save vs a DC equal to 10 + your charisma modifier (+ your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Performance). If the save fails, the creature takes 2d8 piercing damage. If the save fails by 5 or more, the creature is stunned until the end of its next turn. The weapon returns to you at the end of your turn. You can use the weapon this way as many times as your proficiency bonus and you regain all uses after completing a long rest.

So with this, we can imagine Yondu is mostly just doing the weapon attack mode but has Extra Attack at least to some degree. When he goes nuts on his (former) crew in GoTG he's probably using up all his uses (+6 proficiency bonus, say +4 charisma mod = 24 targets).

I imagine a valor bard would wreak havoc with this thing.

[Houster]

Yeah, so I think I'd go with the dual-mode approach. You can use it as a single-target weapon attack or the AoE thing with limited uses.

For the weapon attack, it's considered a ranged weapon attack but your attack and damage modifier is your charisma mod rather than your dex. You have proficiency with the weapon if you are proficient in Performance, and there is a verbal component to using the weapon (whistling, humming, even singing) as with a spell. The base damage is 1d8 piercing. If the attack is a critical hit, the target must make a DC 12 constitution save or be stunned until the end of its next turn. Range is 30/60'. The weapon returns to you at the end of your turn.

For the AoE, you select a number of creatures within 45 feet up to your charisma modifier (minimum of 1). Each creature must make a dexterity save vs a DC equal to 10 + your charisma modifier (+ your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Performance). If the save fails, the creature takes 2d8 piercing damage. If the save fails by 5 or more, the creature is stunned until the end of its next turn. The weapon returns to you at the end of your turn. You can use the weapon this way as many times as your proficiency bonus and you regain all uses after completing a long rest.

So with this, we can imagine Yondu is mostly just doing the weapon attack mode but has Extra Attack at least to some degree. When he goes nuts on his (former) crew in GoTG he's probably using up all his uses (+6 proficiency bonus, say +4 charisma mod = 24 targets).

I imagine a valor bard would wreak havoc with this thing.

Hexblade can really do some problems with this.

[clash]

I would make this a subclass rather than a magic item. I think it would give a lot more room to play with the theme without breaking anything. Maybe fighter or ranger.

[Heavenblade]

Requires some heavy refluff, but I let a player of mine use sun soul monk as a "flying dagger user", since we know now the dagger can light itself on fire too its pretty appropriate.

[Aussiehams]

I think the simplest solution is a returning dagger/dart. +1 to hit and damage and it returns after its thrown.
Just fluff it that the player controls it by whistling .
Mechanically This should give you what you want and it pretty level appropriate.

[Dark.Revenant]

One of my DMs gave an item modeled after Yondu's Arrow to the party's rogue. In short, how it functions is that once per dawn, you can send it out and make a ranged weapon attack with it using your Wisdom for attack/damage, and I believe it's 1d8 magical piercing damage and gains something like a +3 magical bonus to attack/damage. If you hit, you can attack another creature within range. If that hits, you can attack yet another creature within range, and so forth until you finally miss—that's when the arrow returns. You can theoretically bounce it between the same two targets in a loop until one of them dies, as long as your luck is also infinite.

[Nagog]

I had the same sort of idea a while back. While not extensively playtested, the idea that eventually formed was an arrow that you make Performance checks rather than Attack rolls to hit with it. So things that would normally buff an attack roll wouldn't work, while others that would buff skill checks would. With the right build, it can be plenty broken. As is, keeping the damage dice low is a fair enough balancer.
Also, I'd give it a 30ft range and the added effect that if the attack roll exceeds double the target's AC, it hits them twice with one attack. This will rarely happen to anything with an AC over 12-13, and particularly with this being a Rogue and Sneak Attack being limited to once per turn, this should keep things relatively tame while keeping the spirit and fun of the item.

[Aussiehams]

I had the same sort of idea a while back. While not extensively playtested, the idea that eventually formed was an arrow that you make Performance checks rather than Attack rolls to hit with it. So things that would normally buff an attack roll wouldn't work, while others that would buff skill checks would. With the right build, it can be plenty broken. As is, keeping the damage dice low is a fair enough balancer.
Also, I'd give it a 30ft range and the added effect that if the attack roll exceeds double the target's AC, it hits them twice with one attack. This will rarely happen to anything with an AC over 12-13, and particularly with this being a Rogue and Sneak Attack being limited to once per turn, this should keep things relatively tame while keeping the spirit and fun of the item.

On a Swashbuckler with expertise in performance your +hit could be pretty high. You might get that extra hit fairly often.

[Nagog]

On a Swashbuckler with expertise in performance your +hit could be pretty high. You might get that extra hit fairly often.

Even with an extra hit, 1d4+mod damage isn't all that much. Considering it's a ranged weapon that doesn't make attack rolls, I could only really ever see Sneak Attack and maybe Hex/Hunter's Mark being added to it, so damage wise it's pretty light as far as magic weapons go. And on a Swashbuckler, they're still limited to using Sneak Attack once per turn.

If I really wanted to break this, I'd grab expertise in Performance, max Cha (obviously) and also pick up Wild Talent (Charisma). Even with all that, I don't think it's even as powerful as some Uncommon or Rare magic items.

[Selrahc]

I think a lot of these pitches seem very over-complicated. You might be looking for that. If you'd rather keep it simple most elements of the weapon can be handled through narrative description.

Give the player a throwing knife with the returning quality(flies back to the hand of the user after a thrown attack). It's for a rogue, so no worrying about the awkwardness of extra attack.

That's the core. If it's a +0 dagger, then it's a pretty inoffensive ability, but described properly it replicates Yondu's fighting style if not his lethality. If you want to boost it at later levels beyond just upping the enchantment and damage, give it some AOE abilities usable once per long rest or some extra bells and whistles to represent non-combat uses.