Gloom Stalker melee multiclass help

[Goji_64]

Hey guys, first post here.

I am currently playing in a homebrew Wildemount campaign. My character is a strength based melee Tortle Gloom Stalker, currently level 6. We rolled for stats and I have:
18 str
14 dex
14 con
12 int
12 wis
11 cha

Took Dual Wielder fighting style, and feat at level 4. I have two homebrew battle axes that each have 3 "gem sockets" that allow me to insert gems with various different powers in them. For example, some gems I have now give me an extra 1d6 acid damage on hit, I can cast Snare components free, and a +1 to all saves and checks. These are my character's signature weapons.

At level 8 I plan on putting +1 in wisdom so I can multiclass and +1 in con, so that at level 12 I can pick up resilient (Con).

I wanted to play his as a skirmisher type, up close or from afar - equally as deadly. Zephyr Strike to get in, hit, and get out or strike from range with Hunter's Mark up. Was thinking of doing something like GS/rogue/fighter to get action surge, archery fighting style, skill expertise, and sneak attack for my bow attacks. But now I think I rather do something like GS/Samurai or GS/Battle Master and just lean into the melee combat.

Leaning towards Samurai for an GS 8/Samurai 4 build and letting table play decide where I go from there. I would open up with a battle axe wielded in both hands and bonus action Fighting Spirit for six attacks with advantage. Second round put up hunters mark while still weilding the axe two-handed. Come round three I draw my offhand and dual wield the rest of the fight. If my math is right , it should be around 86 max damage in the opening round, not accounting for any crits, droping to 50 something the second round, and picking back up to around 80 for the third round.

I know it's not as strong, or action economy efficient as if I went Battle Master, but I really love the flavor of it. I just want to viable and pull my weight, not sure how those numbers look for a lvl 12 character. This is where the opinions of you guys would be much appreciated, maybe offering insight to something I might have overlooked. I've played a BM before and love it, so I am familiar with what it could bring to the build. Just want to hear your thoughts and what you guys think of the pros/cons of each build, thanks!

[Man_Over_Game]

Samurai might not be an option, due to the fact that it directly interferes with your Dual Wielding Bonus Action.

However, Battlemaster + Trip Attack, with Action Surge + your free attack at the start of combat (so Trip on the first attack, then follow up with 4 attacks with Advantage) would be sure to melt someone right from the getgo.

Tasha's added a bunch of new maneuvers for battlemasters, like stuff that improves tanking or even some skill-monkey stuff, so it's hard to find something you don't like. One of the new fighting styles even gives you a free maneuver+die, in case the Ranger fighting style already has you covered.

[EDIT] I didn't catch what you did there at first, but your Samurai strategy seems pretty dang good, the only problem I see is that you're delaying your Hunter's Mark further and further by clogging up your Bonus Action. As is, you don't get to wield two weapon with Hunter's Mark until Turn 3 (when fights usually end), and a big reason dual-wielding can be good is because of Hunter's Mark, so it's a catch-22 that is probably best solved by opening up your BA and trimming some of the fat.

[Goji_64]

Tha ks for the response Man_

I should of mentioned my DM is anti-tasha's, so anything out of there is a no-go.

Also forgot to mention that I got to start with Martial Adept feat. I took disarming, and precision attacks.

Bonus actions...yeah that's my dilemma. I know going BM makes more economical sense, but wouod I really be hurting the team that much by going samurai?

The rest of the party is:
Earth genasi echo knight
Tiefling hexblade
Ratfolk rogue (ranged)
Dwarf tempest cleric
Gnome divination wizard

I feel like with only 1 other martial tripping attack might actually hurt us, no?

[Man_Over_Game]

Tha ks for the response Man_

I should of mentioned my DM is anti-tasha's, so anything out of there is a no-go.

Also forgot to mention that I got to start with Martial Adept feat. I took disarming, and precision attacks.

Bonus actions...yeah that's my dilemma. I know going BM makes more economical sense, but wouod I really be hurting the team that much by going samurai?

The rest of the party is:
Earth genasi echo knight
Tiefling hexblade
Ratfolk rogue (ranged)
Dwarf tempest cleric
Gnome divination wizard

I feel like with only 1 other martial tripping attack might actually hurt us, no?

I mean, with Hunter's Mark, 5 attacks, and Advantage, I'm not exactly sure how "alive" you expect that target to be once you're done.

Plus, are you only expecting one melee enemy per fight?

And of those, only one (the Rogue) is what I'd expect to be limited to ranged attacks. The others have spells or are perfectly adept at melee combat.

Lastly, it's not like Trip Attack is the only thing you can spend your superiority dice on. Hell, you have two extra maneuvers just from Martial Adept.

[Segev]

I would like to submit for consideration going Rogue (Assassin) 3 as your multiclass. Gloomstalker does a lot to make Assassin actually functional, with the Wis-to-initiative and the extra attack in the opening round.

[Frogreaver]

I would like to submit for consideration going Rogue (Assassin) 3 as your multiclass. Gloomstalker does a lot to make Assassin actually functional, with the Wis-to-initiative and the extra attack in the opening round.

I second this suggestion
Battlemaster is great too

[Corran]

The rest of the party is:
Earth genasi echo knight
Tiefling hexblade
Ratfolk rogue (ranged)
Dwarf tempest cleric
Gnome divination wizard

I feel like with only 1 other martial tripping attack might actually hurt us, no?
Can you clarify who's fighting in melee and who doesn't? I was about to suggest a dip in wolf totem barbarian, but your last remark of having only one other martial (did you mean melee) makes me secondguess that suggestion.

[Goji_64]

Can you clarify who's fighting in melee and who doesn't? I was about to suggest a dip in wolf totem barbarian, but your last remark of having only one other martial (did you mean melee) makes me secondguess that suggestion.
Usually the echo knight with his echo. Im not always in melee because I feel like my hp is low (54) so I try and zephyr strike in and out. The warlock sometimes goes melee, and since getting spirit guardians the cleric has joined us upfront too.

Wolf totem definitely an interesting idea, something to consider. Not a fan of how my DM handles the surprise round for assassins' so im likely to just avoid it, appreciate the suggestion though.

[Goji_64]

I mean, with Hunter's Mark, 5 attacks, and Advantage, I'm not exactly sure how "alive" you expect that target to be once you're done.

Plus, are you only expecting one melee enemy per fight?

And of those, only one (the Rogue) is what I'd expect to be limited to ranged attacks. The others have spells or are perfectly adept at melee combat.

Lastly, it's not like Trip Attack is the only thing you can spend your superiority dice on. Hell, you have two extra maneuvers just from Martial Adept.

Damn, you're not making this decision easy lol

[Goji_64]

Say I go BM, is there any benefit to taking dueling fighting style and fighting with only the main hand on the first turn while using my BA for hunter's mark?

[hitchhike79]

I would look at Rune Knight.
It often feels like a simplified BM at times for me while also having some fun non-battle focused static abilities.
The class has some great burst damage built in and utility all over the place as a multi-class.

[Corran]

Usually the echo knight with his echo. Im not always in melee because I feel like my hp is low (54) so I try and zephyr strike in and out. The warlock sometimes goes melee, and since getting spirit guardians the cleric has joined us upfront too.

Wolf totem definitely an interesting idea, something to consider.
That sounds like the smart thing to do. It takes away your bonus action during your first turn, and you are still prone to losing concentration on it by a stary arrow or by a persistent enemy, but the bigger downside is that it uses your concentration. And that will be a big deal especially in a few levels time, when you'll access 3rd level spells. By all which I mean, zephyr's strike is pretty good for now, but if I were you I would look to transition from it to something better.

There are two main approaches to fix the problem of not being tough enough to stay in melee 100% of the time.

1) One approach is to be a skirmisher, much like you are doing right now with zephyr's strike. Only I'd plan for an improvement. Namely the mobile feat. Increases your base speed which will help a lot by staying out of the melee reach of enemies more frequently. And it plays well with the number of attakcs you've got, allowing you to disengage from up to 3 enemies at a given time, and more importantly, without hurting your busy action economy.

2) The second approach is to plan for becoming tougher, so that you can stay in melee confortably.
a) One option is multiclassing in barbarian. Easier than finding ways to boost your AC. Does not combine with concentration spells though, so you still have to pick the encounters where you are going into melee mode. Would be great if you had as many melee allies as I initially thought you had.
b) The other option is to boost your AC and your concentration (concentration probably needs a boost anyway, whether you are going with the skirmishing apporach or with the barbarian dip, but in this case it's even more important to do so). The easiest way to boost your AC is to dip wizard mainly but not only for the shield spell (spend an ASI for +1 wis and int). Slot wise you can afford it IMO. The problem here is that it will take some time before you can both boost your AC and concentration (you can do both by character level 13) unless you can retrain a feat.

===========================================

In case you are not already doing it, I'll mention something else now. Gloom stalkers are at their best when they are fighting in darkness. Being unseen means that you'll have advanatge on your attacks, and that enemies (who rely on sight) will have disadvnatage on attacks against you. Not to mention that you can move around with impunity as far as OA's go, because when you are unseen you dont provoke any. That solves two major issues at the same time. The issue of boosting dpr (first round nova included), and the issue of being somewhat squishy for melee combat. Granted, there is a lot of DM input on whether you will be fighting in darkness or not, but at the very least what you can do, is to make your allies comfortable for that scenario. I'd definitely pick darkvision and I would not pity the slots till every ally would be able to fight just as well in darkness as during daytime.

Another spell I would look at would be pass without trace, especially if you end up going with fighter levels for action surge (more on that later). Suprising enemies will guarantee advantage even when you are not unseen because of umbral sight, and what's more, giving your whole side (or at least most of them) this edge is a big deal on its own. Dont underestimate spell utility.

===========================================

While I think fighter 2 (or 3) is pretty good amazing for most gloom stalkers, I also think of most gloom stalkers as sharpshooters (or GWMasters). For twf ones, well, fighter 2 is still pretty good, but it's not as good as it would be for the ones utilizing the -5/+10 feats. Second wind is a little worse since your bonus actions are busy (also since your AC is not that great for these hp to mean very much). Action surge is always great to have, but most of the time you'll just want it for the first round nova (assuming advantage either from being unseen or because you surprised), and your weapon attacks with advantage dont carry the same punch as those of a SS/GWM. I might still go for the fighter dip, though I would not delay the ranger progression at this point. There are still ranger stuff I'd want to get my hands on, which seem more useful than action surge on this character. Even if I had two levels of fighter already, I'd probably avoid samurai unless I wasn't able to generate advantage by other means often enough (and this last one is what you really should be doing, since the gloom stalker is designed for that); ways that dont even eat into my action economy even.
Summary: The way your character is set up and given your allies, I would be tempted to just carry on with ranger levels. My first priority would be to try to ensure that we fight as often as possible in darkness. Pick up the darkvision spell and buff any ally without darkvision. Find ways (between you and the party) to put out torches and the like in quick fashion. That will take care both your dpr and survivability to a great extent. That's when gloom stalkers are at their best. Party stealth through pass without trace is another good use of your slots. Surprising enemies is not good because of how it synergizes with your first round alpha strike (especially if you end up with action surge), it's good because it gives the whole party an advanatge over the enemy team (no matter how your DM rules on surprise, if they did not completely do away with it, there has to be some benefit; you judge if its worth picking a spell and using the slots for it, but unless surprised is houseruled to the ground, I would assume it's worth it).

Everything else is mostly details. Plan for the concentration boost in anticipation of conjure animals, and think boosting AC or mobility depending on how you want to back up your survivability, particularly when you wont be able to rely on darkness (AC boost applies when fighting in the dark though with your build it will take longer to bring it online along with the boost to concentration, mobility boost is semi redundant when fighting in the dark but it allows you to justify delaying your concentration boost so that your build is online a little sooner when it comes to daytime combat). Barbarian is out, since you dont have that many melee allied heavy hitters.

[Goji_64]

That sounds like the smart thing to do. It takes away your bonus action during your first turn, and you are still prone to losing concentration on it by a stary arrow or by a persistent enemy, but the bigger downside is that it uses your concentration. And that will be a big deal especially in a few levels time, when you'll access 3rd level spells. By all which I mean, zephyr's strike is pretty good for now, but if I were you I would look to transition from it to something better.

There are two main approaches to fix the problem of not being tough enough to stay in melee 100% of the time.

1) One approach is to be a skirmisher, much like you are doing right now with zephyr's strike. Only I'd plan for an improvement. Namely the mobile feat. Increases your base speed which will help a lot by staying out of the melee reach of enemies more frequently. And it plays well with the number of attakcs you've got, allowing you to disengage from up to 3 enemies at a given time, and more importantly, without hurting your busy action economy.

2) The second approach is to plan for becoming tougher, so that you can stay in melee confortably.
a) One option is multiclassing in barbarian. Easier than finding ways to boost your AC. Does not combine with concentration spells though, so you still have to pick the encounters where you are going into melee mode. Would be great if you had as many melee allies as I initially thought you had.
b) The other option is to boost your AC and your concentration (concentration probably needs a boost anyway, whether you are going with the skirmishing apporach or with the barbarian dip, but in this case it's even more important to do so). The easiest way to boost your AC is to dip wizard mainly but not only for the shield spell (spend an ASI for +1 wis and int). Slot wise you can afford it IMO. The problem here is that it will take some time before you can both boost your AC and concentration (you can do both by character level 13) unless you can retrain a feat.

===========================================

In case you are not already doing it, I'll mention something else now. Gloom stalkers are at their best when they are fighting in darkness. Being unseen means that you'll have advanatge on your attacks, and that enemies (who rely on sight) will have disadvnatage on attacks against you. Not to mention that you can move around with impunity as far as OA's go, because when you are unseen you dont provoke any. That solves two major issues at the same time. The issue of boosting dpr (first round nova included), and the issue of being somewhat squishy for melee combat. Granted, there is a lot of DM input on whether you will be fighting in darkness or not, but at the very least what you can do, is to make your allies comfortable for that scenario. I'd definitely pick darkvision and I would not pity the slots till every ally would be able to fight just as well in darkness as during daytime.

Another spell I would look at would be pass without trace, especially if you end up going with fighter levels for action surge (more on that later). Suprising enemies will guarantee advantage even when you are not unseen because of umbral sight, and what's more, giving your whole side (or at least most of them) this edge is a big deal on its own. Dont underestimate spell utility.

===========================================

While I think fighter 2 (or 3) is pretty good amazing for most gloom stalkers, I also think of most gloom stalkers as sharpshooters (or GWMasters). For twf ones, well, fighter 2 is still pretty good, but it's not as good as it would be for the ones utilizing the -5/+10 feats. Second wind is a little worse since your bonus actions are busy (also since your AC is not that great for these hp to mean very much). Action surge is always great to have, but most of the time you'll just want it for the first round nova (assuming advantage either from being unseen or because you surprised), and your weapon attacks with advantage dont carry the same punch as those of a SS/GWM. I might still go for the fighter dip, though I would not delay the ranger progression at this point. There are still ranger stuff I'd want to get my hands on, which seem more useful than action surge on this character. Even if I had two levels of fighter already, I'd probably avoid samurai unless I wasn't able to generate advantage by other means often enough (and this last one is what you really should be doing, since the gloom stalker is designed for that); ways that dont even eat into my action economy even.
Summary: The way your character is set up and given your allies, I would be tempted to just carry on with ranger levels. My first priority would be to try to ensure that we fight as often as possible in darkness. Pick up the darkvision spell and buff any ally without darkvision. Find ways (between you and the party) to put out torches and the like in quick fashion. That will take care both your dpr and survivability to a great extent. That's when gloom stalkers are at their best. Party stealth through pass without trace is another good use of your slots. Surprising enemies is not good because of how it synergizes with your first round alpha strike (especially if you end up with action surge), it's good because it gives the whole party an advanatge over the enemy team (no matter how your DM rules on surprise, if they did not completely do away with it, there has to be some benefit; you judge if its worth picking a spell and using the slots for it, but unless surprised is houseruled to the ground, I would assume it's worth it).

Everything else is mostly details. Plan for the concentration boost in anticipation of conjure animals, and think boosting AC or mobility depending on how you want to back up your survivability, particularly when you wont be able to rely on darkness (AC boost applies when fighting in the dark though with your build it will take longer to bring it online along with the boost to concentration, mobility boost is semi redundant when fighting in the dark but it allows you to justify delaying your concentration boost so that your build is online a little sooner when it comes to daytime combat). Barbarian is out, since you dont have that many melee allied heavy hitters.
If I was to stay single classed, Mobile is for sure what I would pick up next. That being said, going further into Ranger doesn't excite me all that much. I know the value of their higher level spells, but something like maneuvers or fighting spirit is just more appealing to me.

I do have pass without a trace, but have not thought to use it as an in-combat or surprise round starter like you suggested. That's actually a pretty good idea.

My AC is 17, or 18 when both weapons are drawn, but I have not been so lucky when rolling for health. It would be nice to be able to get tougher (the feat is an option, but that delays everything else) in melee and not rely on zephyr strike so much, and be able to cast hunter's mark more often. Taking resilient (Con) at 12 was my solution to both, more hp and helping with concentration saves.

Opinions on taking either Longstrider, or Goodberry for my next level spell? Looking to avoid another concentration spell. Currently have:
-Hunter's mark
-Zephyr strike
-Pass without trace
-Absorb elements

[Goji_64]

How would one value the 100% guarantee of Fighting Spirit advantage vs the save but extra damage of Tripping Attack?

[Segev]

How would one value the 100% guarantee of Fighting Spirit advantage vs the save but extra damage of Tripping Attack?

Unless you're doing more with Advantage than improving your to-hit odds, I would not be terribly excited by the former over the latter. That may be a matter of personal taste, though.

[Man_Over_Game]

How would one value the 100% guarantee of Fighting Spirit advantage vs the save but extra damage of Tripping Attack?

It's hard to say. Fighting Spirit refreshes on a long rest, Superiority Dice refreshes on a short rest. Also, Fighting Spirit uses a Bonus Action, Trip Attack requires no additional resources.

The main concern here is just how bloated the uses for your Bonus Action already are. For a two-handed Fighter, it's not a big deal, but for a Dual-Wielding Ranger, the BA is your lifeblood.

Assuming your stats are high enough, you'll have a lot of good chances to land those Trip Attacks, and even without landing the first, you still have 4 more superiority dice to spend in that combat.

I actually did the math a long while back. A level 5 Samurai with GWM actually does less damage than a Battlemaster with GWM of the same level (based on Riposte and other flat damage bonuses) over the course of a generic adventuring day. It's worth noting, though, that the Samurai does also get THP that wasn't added into those calculations, but both characters using GWM should normally sway in the Samurai's favor (since GWM is worth more to the Samurai than the BM), so I considered that element of things as a tossup.

It's also worth noting that the BM gets Advantage through Prone, a status condition that penalizes the target's attacks and movement, and following it up with a grapple (the BM gets a grapple maneuver now from Tasha's) will lock down the target into the Prone status indefinitely.

[Goji_64]

You make a strong case for BM....hmmmmm

So if that's the route I take I think I would take Tripping Attack, Reposte, and maybe Evasive footwork. On top of having Disarming Attack, and Precision Attack from Martial Adept. Thoughts? Remember, I cant use anything from Tasha's...

Is evasive footwork worth it, if I want the
option to remain a bit of a skirmisher still?

[Man_Over_Game]

Sorry, forgot about the Tasha's restriction.

Hmm...Ever considered using whips? They are an excellent tool for a skirmishing Battlemaster or Ranger. Compared to other one-handed weapons, you're only losing 2 damage, and it empowers things like Goading Strike so you can taunt a target while making it impossible for them to retaliate against you.

I dunno how important damage is for you, but whips have been known to be pretty stellar for those that are interested in utility over damage.

[Goji_64]

No, haven't considered whips before. Don't really think they fit my character tbh. My DM has crafted me a pair of homebrew battle axes that I can augment with different powers and abilities through gemstones i can find in the world. For example, currently one of the gems in my main hand axe gives me an extra 1d6 acid damage on hit. It really helps to make up for not always having Hunter's Mark up, and that much better when it is up.

Through gems like that is why I thought maybe I could get away with going samurai and having my hunter's mark being delayed a round.

[Helliquin]

Ever considered the gooomstalkers additional movement and combine that with a drunken monk.

[Goji_64]

Ever considered the gooomstalkers additional movement and combine that with a drunken monk.
I have not. Looked at monk once, shadow, but thought there was some overlap. What does a drunken monk bring?

[Helliquin]

I have not. Looked at monk once, shadow, but thought there was some overlap. What does a drunken monk bring?

A lot of mobility options.

At lvl 3 Flurry of blows gives you free disengage and plus ten movement speed.

Lvl 6 it only costs you 5 ft to get up from being prone.

Throw on monks usual mobility, gloomstalker mobility extras, maybe a feat, and you can reliably run around without attacks of opportunity while dishing out lots of attacks all with hunters mark bonus (assuming you’re using a rapier/short sword and a fist)

[stoutstien]

Add suggest but kensei is a strong dip option for tortles in general but with TWF feat you could be rocking 20 AC on the front lines and adding some extra damage from afar when you are hanging back. Then you still have your smaller ki pool for clutch decisions like a bonus action dodge to tank up or a deflected middle. Plus your cool axes would be monk weapons.

[Goji_64]

Add suggest but kensei is a strong dip option for tortles in general but with TWF feat you could be rocking 20 AC on the front lines and adding some extra damage from afar when you are hanging back. Then you still have your smaller ki pool for clutch decisions like a bonus action dodge to tank up or a deflected middle. Plus your cool axes would be monk weapons.

That's not a bad idea. How would my DPR look though? I could only use one axe and nothing in my offhand right? Just curious, why do you say kensei is strong for a tortle?

We actually had a kensei monk in the party, but he died to a mind flayer.

[Man_Over_Game]

That's not a bad idea. How would my DPR look though? I could only use one axe and nothing in my offhand right? Just curious, why do you say kensei is strong for a tortle?

Monks are naturally MAD characters, due to needing both Dexterity and Wisdom.

Wisdom is also useful on Monks due to Stunning Strike.

Kenseis do not rely on Stunning Strike, since their whole gimmick is having better ranged attacks than most Monks (ranged attacks can't use Stunning Strike), and otherwise don't use Wisdom except for AC.

Being a Tortle as a ranged Monk means you can keep Wisdom as a dump stat and still have high AC. Now you are no longer a MAD character. This doesn't seem like a big deal at first, except it means you can afford to buy more feats on a character that regularly uses weapons, on a class that normally can't afford feats.

That's the gimmick. Being able to sell your Wisdom for feats.

[Goji_64]

Awesome break down, thank you.

Is kensei intended as a ranged subclass? How would be it in melee?

[Man_Over_Game]

Awesome break down, thank you.

Is kensei intended as a ranged subclass? How would be it in melee?

Kenseis are as good as any subclass-less Monk in melee, which is to say, perfectly fine. They even have a few more benefits to melee combat than Sun Soul Monks.

But, in the end, players are happier every time their choices are validated. Picking Kensei means you're sacrificing the option for melee prowess for more range, so you feel rewarded when using those benefits.

Kenseis, in particular, excel at fighting enemies in the ways they don't want you to. When fighting slow bruisers, strafe them and harass them while they can't ever touch you due to your higher speed and range. When fighting archers, Dodge and Dash with your high speed before engaging in melee and adding additional defense while their front line has to scatter to protect their rear.

It's important to note that the Monk is a melee specialist class that counters squishies with mobility, while the Kensei turns the Monk into a generalist that can also counter melee enemies through kiting.

The Kensei is not a ranged specialist on the same levels of a Ranger or Fighter, but it can still have a similar effect of "I'm not using my Kensei features right now (ranged), so I'm not having that much fun", despite having a ton of melee-centric features.


What I'm trying to say is, the Kensei is in this weird spot of being a "ranged specialist" for a melee-only class, so how much you get out of it is kinda up to you. It's not something that's easily described without feeling it firsthand.

That's probably not super helpful, sorry.

[Goji_64]

Kenseis are as good as any subclass-less Monk in melee, which is to say, perfectly fine. They even have a few more benefits to melee combat than Sun Soul Monks.

But, in the end, players are happier every time their choices are validated. Picking Kensei means you're sacrificing the option for melee prowess for more range, so you feel rewarded when using those benefits.

Kenseis, in particular, excel at fighting enemies in the ways they don't want you to. When fighting slow bruisers, strafe them and harass them while they can't ever touch you due to your higher speed and range. When fighting archers, Dodge and Dash with your high speed before engaging in melee and adding additional defense while their front line has to scatter to protect their rear.

It's important to note that the Monk is a melee specialist class that counters squishies with mobility, while the Kensei turns the Monk into a generalist that can also counter melee enemies through kiting.

The Kensei is not a ranged specialist on the same levels of a Ranger or Fighter, but it can still have a similar effect of "I'm not using my Kensei features right now (ranged), so I'm not having that much fun", despite having a ton of melee-centric features.


What I'm trying to say is, the Kensei is in this weird spot of being a "ranged specialist" for a melee-only class, so how much you get out of it is kinda up to you. It's not something that's easily described without feeling it firsthand.

That's probably not super helpful, sorry.

So Kensei makes for a more versatile, ranged or melee ready, mobile character?

What would that action economy look like? First round would be hunters mark with my BA, and then multiattack with my axe (and dread ambusher). Then second round would be attacking with my axe and then bonus action unarmed strike, and then gain Agile Parry? That means I couldn't use my offhand axe anymore? Can you use Patient defense and Agile Parry in the same round? The defensive benefits sound amazing, but my only concern is that it sounds like my DPR takes a big hit, no?

From an RP perspective kensei might really fit my character. He is very much based off TMNT, without being one. Born in the swamps, rescued, adopted, and trained by his ratfolk master, he grew up in the sewers under one of the main cities. I flavor him being a Ranger and further a Gloom Stalker, as being as sewer related as possible. At night he would put his training to the test by hunting and fighting the monsters that lurk in the sewers, slaying them before they reached the city streets above. Now in an adventuring party he serves as the parties tracker, scout, hunter, and wilderness guide. Survival and Stealth are two of my favorite rolls for him.

So im looking for what could best enhance that story for my character, without sacrificing synergy and optimization too much. Each subclass would reflect different the teachings, and training I have received:

BM: Trained as "The Warrior", his martial abilites finely honed

Samurai: Posses immense resolve, embodies the "Never say die" attitude

Kensei: The most ninja-like, mix up attacks and keep enemy off balance

Just want to say thank you to all who have responded so far, really appreciate the feedback.

[Man_Over_Game]

So the really awkward part is, nowhere does your bonus action weapon attack fit in any of these builds except BM.

That's the big catch. It's Samurai OR dual-wield. It's Monk OR dual-wield. BM is really one of the only choices I'd recommend for a dual-wielder. Even Ranger has a lot of problems with dual-wielding, due to how often their spells and abilities like to use it.

Sorry if that puts a damper on your plans.

There is another option, though. Barbarians make good dual-wielders, as long as you aren't relying on spells. Ever considered going that direction? You're using Battle Axes, so you're using Strength, right?

[Goji_64]

So the really awkward part is, nowhere does your bonus action weapon attack fit in any of these builds except BM.

That's the big catch. It's Samurai OR dual-wield. It's Monk OR dual-wield. BM is really one of the only choices I'd recommend for a dual-wielder. Even Ranger has a lot of problems with dual-wielding, due to how often their spells and abilities like to use it.

Sorry if that puts a damper on your plans.

There is another option, though. Barbarians make good dual-wielders, as long as you aren't relying on spells. Ever considered going that direction? You're using Battle Axes, so you're using Strength, right?

That's what I figured. Damn bonus action reliance. I am listening to all ideas though.

Yes I am strength based. Barbarian is an interesting choice too, a few people have suggested it. Maybe the death of our monk drives my character into a rage on the battlefield...

[da newt]

I'd go BM. You get so many combat tools. 2nd wind, another fighting style, action surge, maneuvers.

Trip is good, riposte is excellent, but for your 3rd move you have some options:

Commander's Strike - give your rogue an off turn attack for another sneak attack
Menacing Attack - make that guy afraid for a turn (the save DC is based off your ST + Proff Bonus)

Of note, most maneuvers work on all weapon attacks (not just melee, ranged / thrown too), and they are rarely wasted as you decide to add them after you hit (most not all).

[Segev]

Action Surge is really good on the first round for a gloom stalker, too: it's still THE FIRST ROUND, so the extra attack action gets the +1 extra attack as part of the action.

[Man_Over_Game]

Action Surge is really good on the first round for a gloom stalker, too: it's still THE FIRST ROUND, so the extra attack action gets the +1 extra attack as part of the action.
Holy crap, you're right. There's no limit per turn, it just works once per Attack Action.

Damn, never caught that. Stupid stronk.

First round of combat, ranger dives in at lightning speed, trips the first guy to the ground, and proceeds to stab him with both hands like a ****ing psychopath.

[Segev]

Holy crap, you're right. There's no limit per turn, it just works once per Attack Action.

Damn, never caught that. Stupid stronk.

One day, I want to try out a Rogue (Assassin) 3, Ranger (Gloomstalker) 3, Fighter 2. (Not sure what the combination of levels beyond that would be; obviously want to seriously consider rogue or ranger 4, if not both, for feats/ASIs, but that's the bare bones composition.)

Initiative gets Dex and Wis added to it, four attacks on an action surged opening round (6 when either Ranger or Fighter gets to 5), and likely most of those crits thanks to Assassinate and the high initiative mod.

[Goji_64]

Action Surge is really good on the first round for a gloom stalker, too: it's still THE FIRST ROUND, so the extra attack action gets the +1 extra attack as part of the action.
Yes, a huge reason I wanted to go fighter :)

The more I think about it the harder it is not to want to go Fighter. What do you guys think, GS8/BM12? At least I would get that third attack if by chance we play to 20. Any feat suggestions? Mobile?

Is Evasive Footwork work a maneuver slot if I already have Zeyphr Strike? Or vice versa?

[Segev]

Yes, a huge reason I wanted to go fighter :)

The more I think about it the harder it is not to want to go Fighter. What do you guys think, GS8/BM12? At least I would get that third attack if by chance we play to 20. Any feat suggestions? Mobile?

Is Evasive Footwork work a maneuver slot if I already have Zeyphr Strike? Or vice versa?

How likely are you to get to 20? How long will you play there? That looks like a fine build either way, but be careful about counting on level 20 to "complete" your build. There is a lot of game before then. That said, if the third attack is just "it would be nice," that's probably fine.

I still will recommend considering assassin 3 or 4 (for an ASI) for the round 1 damage maximization. You could have Assassinate and Action Surge as early as five levels from now, depending how important ASIs/feats are to you.

[Goji_64]

How likely are you to get to 20? How long will you play there? That looks like a fine build either way, but be careful about counting on level 20 to "complete" your build. There is a lot of game before then. That said, if the third attack is just "it would be nice," that's probably fine.

I still will recommend considering assassin 3 or 4 (for an ASI) for the round 1 damage maximization. You could have Assassinate and Action Surge as early as five levels from now, depending how important ASIs/feats are to you.

Yes it's just a "it would be nice" thing. For me, anything past level 12 is gravy as I feel my basic build idea will be realized by then. Our DM wants us to reach level 20, but we'll just have to see what happens.

Found a 5000gp diamond last night, that if i put it in one of my axes it would of gave me +2 AC. Another player took it, and tarnished it already. Im still upset over it...

Thought about maybe some rogue levels after fighter 4, but Im not sure if I want to go down to a d8 hit dice...and I dont fully trust my DM to give me that full assassin crit bonus

[Segev]

Yes it's just a "it would be nice" thing. For me, anything past level 12 is gravy as I feel my basic build idea will be realized by then. Our DM wants us to reach level 20, but we'll just have to see what happens.

Found a 5000gp diamond last night, that if i put it in one of my axes it would of gave me +2 AC. Another player took it, and tarnished it already. Im still upset over it...

Thought about maybe some rogue levels after fighter 4, but Im not sure if I want to go down to a d8 hit dice...and I dont fully trust my DM to give me that full assassin crit bonus
Condolences on the loss of the diamond. What did the other PC use it on?

When you say you don't trust your DM to give you the full crit bonus, do you mean he would house rule it, or is there some element of existing DM discrete that you think would be against setting it up somehow?

If it is a rule thing you think he would change, that is handled easily by discussing it with him ahead of time and finding out what he would change, if anything. If it is something else, I am unsure what, precisely, you don't trust your DM to do that would give or deny you the "full bonus."

[Goji_64]

Condolences on the loss of the diamond. What did the other PC use it on?

When you say you don't trust your DM to give you the full crit bonus, do you mean he would house rule it, or is there some element of existing DM discrete that you think would be against setting it up somehow?

If it is a rule thing you think he would change, that is handled easily by discussing it with him ahead of time and finding out what he would change, if anything. If it is something else, I am unsure what, precisely, you don't trust your DM to do that would give or deny you the "full bonus."

He has a homebrew firearm that shoots radiant bullets, he has to use diamond dust as ammunition. So he put it in a machine and started grinding some of it up. Totally unaware of its value to me.

When we played Hoard of the Dragon Queen, we had an assassin in the party. I think he thought the auto crit was super cheese so the way he handled the surprise round was a bit different. It was awhile ago so I can't recall the specifics of his ruling, but I never really saw the rogue get the crit benefit. Me and the DM have been friends for over 20 years so maybe you're right and I should just talk to him about it.

Would it be worth going levels 13-16 as rogue? Definitely want to get action surge, Bm subclass, and the ASI asap.

[Segev]

He has a homebrew firearm that shoots radiant bullets, he has to use diamond dust as ammunition. So he put it in a machine and started grinding some of it up. Totally unaware of its value to me.

When we played Hoard of the Dragon Queen, we had an assassin in the party. I think he thought the auto crit was super cheese so the way he handled the surprise round was a bit different. It was awhile ago so I can't recall the specifics of his ruling, but I never really saw the rogue get the crit benefit. Me and the DM have been friends for over 20 years so maybe you're right and I should just talk to him about it.

Would it be worth going levels 13-16 as rogue? Definitely want to get action surge, Bm subclass, and the ASI asap.

If you're not too concerned about it, and you want to discuss it with the DM, prioritizing it after you get other things you want can't hurt.

Were I personally building specifically for it, I'd be going for Gloomstalker 3, Assassin 3, Fighter 2 ASAP. I am not sure which order I'd put Assassin and Fighter in, though, as the action surge is great with Gloomstalker even without Assassinate. Yeah, probably GS 3, F2, A3, in that order, as the Assassinate part of the trick is good, but the least reliable and the one that is going to explode in effectiveness the most the more of the rest of it I have.

For your purposes, therefore, with Assassin being something you're iffy on even taking, waiting on it can't hurt. I just recommend it when you're confident you'll be able to use it, because it IS very nice with the other ingredients (even if a straight assassin is pretty lousy).

[da newt]

Of note "Gloomstalker 3, Assassin 3, Fighter 2 ASAP" would mean that your lvl 8 PC would have one attack per round (except the first round or if you action surge) and they would have zero ASI yet.


I do agree, if your DM allows conditions such that you can create a surprise round consistently and they don't nerf the auto crit of the subclass, assassin is very powerful. Unfortunately, in my experience even with a supportive DM, the likelihood of a surprise round is quite low. But if your whole party is built to stealth and the environment is often dark / confusing, and your foes can be attacked unaware - it can be deadly. But, when a surprise round occurs in 1 of 10 combats, assassin is a trap choice and you cannot benefit from sneak attack damage with your axes.

[Goji_64]

I might take a level or two of rogue for expertise, an emergency bonus action dash/disengage, and sneak attack for my bow, but I think i might avoid going for a third subclass in that case.

Though in the world were we *do* make it to 20, I think I'd rather get that third attack from fighter. Eight attacks in the opening round, plus with Tripping attack thrown in there....oh man

[Goji_64]

I am looking to take Tripping Attack, and Riposte, on top of already having Disarming Attack and Precision Attack. That leaves 1 maneuver open, which of these three would you guys recommend?

-Evasive footwork- Can cast Hunter's Mark more, and zephyr strike less
- Goading Attack- Would be used almost like a ranged "taunt"
-Maneuvering Attack- Always good to get friends into or out of trouble

Personally I am loving my melee ranger, and would encourage more people to look past that automatic view of a ranger=ranged.

[Man_Over_Game]

I am looking to take Tripping Attack, and Riposte, on top of already having Disarming Attack and Precision Attack. That leaves 1 maneuver open, which of these three would you guys recommend?

-Evasive footwork- Can cast Hunter's Mark more, and zephyr strike less
- Goading Attack- Would be used almost like a ranged "taunt"
-Maneuvering Attack- Always good to get friends into or out of trouble

Personally I am loving my melee ranger, and would encourage more people to look past that automatic view of a ranger=ranged.

As a melee, you're almost always going to be the one that goes down first, I wouldn't worry too much about protecting your friends unless it proves to be a problem, which is why Goading Strike is almost always better on a ranged character.

On that note, I'd recommend Evasive Footwork.

[Segev]

As a melee, you're almost always going to be the one that goes down first, I wouldn't worry too much about protecting your friends unless it proves to be a problem, which is why Goading Strike is almost always better on a ranged character.

On that note, I'd recommend Evasive Footwork.

This assumes enemies will focus on the melee first. This is not always a safe assumption, especially if the most dangerous people on your team are also the squishiest. It might be worth rushing past the melee to get to the back lines, AO and all, if the melee doesn't have means of making them seriously regret that and/or succeed less well at it.

[Man_Over_Game]

This assumes enemies will focus on the melee first. This is not always a safe assumption, especially if the most dangerous people on your team are also the squishiest. It might be worth rushing past the melee to get to the back lines, AO and all, if the melee doesn't have means of making them seriously regret that and/or succeed less well at it.

Yeah, but it's safer to assume that an enemy is going to attack the first thing it runs into.

There may be DMs that have some melee enemies that ignore the front line (50% chance), and there may be DMs that have all of their melee enemies engage the front line (100% chance), but taking both types of DMs into account means that you have a higher chance of being engaged as a melee character than being a ranged character (75% chance).

That's why I'd recommend assuming you're the one that's going to die first, and then just make adjustments based on how true that turned out to be after some experience with that table. Worst-case scenario, you protect your back line as well as any other Fighter could have until you can switch things up.

[Yakk]

Tortle Gloom Stalker, currently level 6
First, Ranger 6 sucks hard. FE and NE are ribbon features that wheren't good at level 1, and getting a new copy of them at level 6 is worse.

See if you can retcon away Ranger 6.

---

Next, Gloom 5/BM 3/Assassin 3 is a fun build. The downside is that your sneak attack dice don't work with battleaxes.

You get a 6 round first initiative round.

If you can arrange for surprise (scout ahead) and pre-cast HM (90 foot range, no obvious effect on target, but V component) before combat, and I'll assume you have a battleaxe and a 1d4 finesse weapon (say, a whip). With advantage. Assuming you burn BM dice on precision so everything hits...

Dice: Gloom is +1d8, BA is 1d8x6, gem is 1d6x6, Finesse off-hand 1d4+2d6, HM 7d6. All critical. So 14d8+2d4+30d6 is 173 damage from dice.
Static: 4*7 = 28 from static damage (yawn).
Total: 201 on average.

You can throw in some BM damage for 1d8 x2 for critical apiece, but seems overkill.

A more normal round is BA 2d8 + gem 2d6 + finesse off-hand 1d4+2d6 and 12 static damage for 37.5 damage.

Basically you become an ambush predator. You should only use the above strategy rarely, for the simple reason that if the DM scales opponents to survive it, a normal fight will be a TPK when it fails.

If used rarely, you get to kill a foe in one round with surprise when strategically fun.

The above gets almost +50% damage on first round from gloomstalker, double damage on surprise, and double damage with action surge, for a x6 damage multiplier (roughly) for that assassination round. The actual multiplier is 5.4x because the doubles and 50% boost aren't quite doubles, just close.

[Goji_64]

First, Ranger 6 sucks hard. FE and NE are ribbon features that wheren't good at level 1, and getting a new copy of them at level 6 is worse.

See if you can retcon away Ranger 6.

It might not be the popular opinion but I enjoy the flavor FE and NE add to the character. And while they add next to nothing, esp in combat, they certainly don't subtract anything from the class. I plan on going ranger 8 becuase gloom stalker 7 for free wisdom save proficiency is huge imo, and without that 8th level ASI I cannot, as per RAW, multiclass out.

Others have suggested Assassin too, and while I definitely do appreciate the suggestions, relying on that surpise critical is too much set up and a gamble for me. Unless I can help him out with Pass Without a Trace, our Echo Knight usually has some pretty unlucky stealth rolls. Finally, I have dual battle axes so neither would proc sneak attack, and I greatly value them over sneak attack.

M.O.G., once again thank you. Like the way you think.

[Segev]

It might not be the popular opinion but I enjoy the flavor FE and NE add to the character. And while they add next to nothing, esp in combat, they certainly don't subtract anything from the class. I plan on going ranger 8 becuase gloom stalker 7 for free wisdom save proficiency is huge imo, and without that 8th level ASI I cannot, as per RAW, multiclass out.

Others have suggested Assassin too, and while I definitely do appreciate the suggestions, relying on that surpise critical is too much set up and a gamble for me. Unless I can help him out with Pass Without a Trace, our Echo Knight usually has some pretty unlucky stealth rolls. Finally, I have dual battle axes so neither would proc sneak attack, and I greatly value them over sneak attack.

M.O.G., once again thank you. Like the way you think.

They're not well-balanced yet, but if you're feeling underpowered with FE and NE (and I don't know that you are), you might see if your DM is okay with homebrewed augmenting features for them: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zi4DrABAFdF5n9H3icmTlWwC2QW5hVU1-g-bAbhiqEM/edit?usp=sharing

[Yakk]

It is just level 6 gives nothing but an upgrade to FE/NE that wasn't good enough to pick first. Ie, it is a worse level than level 1, which already was a meh level for a Ranger.

If you are going for 8, ya gotta get through it.

--

BM3 is better than Assassin 3 I think. 2d6 sneak on a worse weapon is mostly a wash, and action surge beats assassinate (2x action better than 2x dice) ignoring advantage. Ass 3 does give expertise and cunning action.

--

But to get on why I am doen on Ranger 5 to 8, you get 1 level of spellcasting, FE/NE and an ASI.

Compared to srcond wind, fighting style, action surge, and superiority. The worst level is fighter 1, and it ain't horrible.

[Goji_64]

They're not well-balanced yet, but if you're feeling underpowered with FE and NE (and I don't know that you are), you might see if your DM is okay with homebrewed augmenting features for them: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zi4DrABAFdF5n9H3icmTlWwC2QW5hVU1-g-bAbhiqEM/edit?usp=sharing
Having picked Monstrosities, Aberrations, Swamps, and the Underdark...I gotta say those are some really cool changes. Did you come up with these?

Thankfully I dont feel underpowered though. My axes are pretty powerful so it really helps me counteract some of these lackluster features

[Goji_64]

It is just level 6 gives nothing but an upgrade to FE/NE that wasn't good enough to pick first. Ie, it is a worse level than level 1, which already was a meh level for a Ranger.

If you are going for 8, ya gotta get through it.

--

BM3 is better than Assassin 3 I think. 2d6 sneak on a worse weapon is mostly a wash, and action surge beats assassinate (2x action better than 2x dice) ignoring advantage. Ass 3 does give expertise and cunning action.

--

But to get on why I am doen on Ranger 5 to 8, you get 1 level of spellcasting, FE/NE and an ASI.

Compared to srcond wind, fighting style, action surge, and superiority. The worst level is fighter 1, and it ain't horrible.

Sure level 6 aint anything great, but for me at least Iron Mind at GS7 makes up for it. It maybe not be a sexy feature and maybe I'm overvaluing it but I played a one shot as a level 17 samurai that escaped an astral dreadnought because of wisdom save proficiency. Been a fan ever since 😀

[Yakk]

I did miss the subclass feature.

Iron mind is a half asi (literally, it is half of a feat).

So 1.5 ASI, 1 caster level, and 2 ribbons (the 2 ribbons are worse than the ones you get at level 1).

[Goji_64]

Thoughts on instead of a BM fighter multiclass, just a 2 level barbarian dip? Would be level 9-10 for Rage, Reckless Attack, and Danger Sense.

How much synergy would they have together? Rage is another bonus action but is the extra damage and resistance worth the tradeoff? I love the idea of having Danger Sense, but is that worth it at level 10? I figure in this instance, rage is there for me when I get into trouble, or the BBEG, and I could use my Ranger spells otherwise (for melee or ranged fighting), leaning heavily on spells for when I need ranged attacks.

Just fought an Elder Brain last session and while we killed it, I don't really feel I contributed too much to the fight. The brain came out of a "black pool of liquid" as my DM described it which made me veeeeery hesitant to stride into melee. Used my bow for the first round to take advantage of Dread Ambusher, but other then that I really more took care of the adds the brain was summoning with my axes. After the fight ended I found out the black liquid was just basically black water, and my DM described it as such just to play mind games with us (clever), to instill some fear in the fight. It was a really fun fight but it just left me questioning if I should sacrifice combat versatility for going so heavily focused into melee with battle master.

What do you guys think?

[da newt]

A Barbarian Dip can be quite handy, but it creates a decision tree - do I rage or do I use my spells? BM doesn't make you choose this or that, it only adds more capability.

The ADV on athletics while raging is nice for grapple & shove, danger sense is handy, PSB damage resistance is great, and reckless is handy (especially for GWM).

If you do go Barb 2, you might as well go 3 for a subclass - bear totem is an easy pick, ancestral guardian can be a game changer.

[Goji_64]

A Barbarian Dip can be quite handy, but it creates a decision tree - do I rage or do I use my spells? BM doesn't make you choose this or that, it only adds more capability.

The ADV on athletics while raging is nice for grapple & shove, danger sense is handy, PSB damage resistance is great, and reckless is handy (especially for GWM).

If you do go Barb 2, you might as well go 3 for a subclass - bear totem is an easy pick, ancestral guardian can be a game changer.

Yeah, I was actually looking at Eagle totem. It's too bad wolf totem is adv on melee attacks only as it's just me and the fighter upfront, really.

Another reason I am considering barb is because I would want to reflavor rage as me entering a new fighting stance. My character shifts his stance and is now in perfect fighting form, making his strikes deadlier and improving his defenses...that sort of thing. Idk if thats worth picking over the mechanical dominance of battle master though.