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View Full Version : Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?



TyGuy
2021-04-28, 10:57 AM
Not sure how this can even be deduced with metrics. Perhaps book sales... Maybe anecdotal and observational input might be insightful.

What do you think the top dog is at the moment? Top 3?

Mastikator
2021-04-28, 11:02 AM
Starfinder

I have literally no evidence to support this :smallcool:

Maybe Starwars also?

MoiMagnus
2021-04-28, 12:25 PM
The only two ttrpgs that take place in space that I've really heard of are Warhamer 40k and FFG's Starwars. That's also the only two that I've seen advertisement for, and it's probably because they both try to recruit peoples from outside the ttrpg community.

I mean, technically, I've "heard" about Starfinder, but nobody talked about it to me ever, so the only thing I know is "Pathfinder in space!"

As for numbers, Roll20 does publish its statistics on a regular basis (https://blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-group-industry-report-q2-2020/), and you can see that indeed, Warhamer, Starwars and Starfinder are all three in the top, though Warhamer's numbers include every variant (fantasy, 40k, etc).

TyGuy
2021-04-28, 12:27 PM
I found this Roll20 data. Which I take with a massive grain of salt as it doesn't account for varying levels different systems are offline. It also has pretty big categories of "other" which may include systems with higher numbers than the lowest specific system in this table.



System

%



D&D 5e
52.9


Uncategorized
14.96


Call of Cthulhu
10.3


Pathfinder
3.69


Pathfinder 2e
1.58


Warhammer (fantasy, 40k, wrath & glory, etc.)
1.28


World of Darkness (Vampire, werewolf, etc)
1.14


D&D 3.5
1.02


Star Wars
0.72


Starfinder
0.66


Other games (everything else)
11.73



This data is from Q4 2020. In the previous year the ranks for sci-fi were Starfinder, Star Wars, Shadowrun. The three were pretty close to each other with 0.77, 0.67, 0.65. But in 2020 Shadowrun got bumped off and Star Wars pulled ahead of Starfinder.

But again, this is just Roll20 numbers so I'm only using this data to get a general idea. Would be nice if I could see how Numenera stacks up against Starfinder, Star Wars, and Shadowrun.

Jason
2021-04-28, 03:16 PM
Traveller was top dog at one time, and Mongoose sure is producing a lot of books right now. Somebody besides me must be buying them.

MoiMagnus
2021-04-28, 04:34 PM
Traveller was top dog at one time, and Mongoose sure is producing a lot of books right now. Somebody besides me must be buying them.

It is in the top 50 on roll20 (42th, to be precise).
https://blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-group-industry-report-q4-2020-8-million-users-edition/
So not bad, but lower than some other scifi games like "Stars without Numbers".

EDIT: Looking to the numbers, I'm surprise to see two RPGs exclusively in French in the top 50 (Chroniques Oubliées et Donjon de Naheulbeuk). I didn't realise the community of French players was that big.

Democratus
2021-04-28, 05:00 PM
Traveller was top dog at one time, and Mongoose sure is producing a lot of books right now. Somebody besides me must be buying them.

I'm the other person buying them. :smallbiggrin:

Traveller is the "D&D" of sci-fi games, with its roots deep in the 70s.

Yora
2021-04-28, 05:09 PM
The only two ttrpgs that take place in space that I've really heard of are Warhamer 40k and FFG's Starwars. That's also the only two that I've seen advertisement for, and it's probably because they both try to recruit peoples from outside the ttrpg community.

Those were my two thoughts for possible contenders for space games.

Though both of them are pure fantasy with zero science.

Jason
2021-04-28, 05:15 PM
I'm not sure Roll20 can be described as definitive. I've never used it.

MoiMagnus
2021-04-29, 02:38 AM
I'm not sure Roll20 can be described as definitive. I've never used it.

It's not without biases.
But it's pretty difficult to find numbers about that many different RPGs condensed on the same platform.

I'd say it can prove that something is popular enough, but cannot prove that something is not popular, as the community could just be using other places (like real life).

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-29, 04:33 AM
Ignoring Star Wars and Warrhammer 40,000 games, because deciding if they're fantasy (witch they are) or science fiction leads to arguments, my gut feeling would be Traveller, Starfinder, and Shadowrun. If we knock Starfinder and Shadowrun out for also being fantasy (not unreasonable) then my gut feeling would be Cyberpunk (either 2020 or Red) and something like Disapora would grab the next two slots. But again this is all gut feeling, I accept that Roll20 likely disagrees with this but it's also in no way definitive.

MoiMagnus
2021-04-29, 05:59 AM
I've tried to spot all the RPGs that could be considered as Scifi and underline them (I might have missed some), but I will admit that a lot of them have a big fantastic component:


Major RPGs on Roll20:

D&D 5e -> 52.9%
Call of Cthulhu -> 10.3%
Pathfinder 1e -> 3.69%

Around 1% of the campaigns:

Pathfinder 2e
Warhammer
World of Darkness
D&D 3.5
Star Wars
Starfinder


Less then 0.50% of the campaigns:

Savage Worlds
Shadowrun
FATE
Das Shwarze Auge (The Dark Eye)


Less then 0.40% of the campaigns:

Blades in the Dark
Tormenta
inSANe
Apocalypse World System
Cyberpunk Red
Dungeon World
Year Zero Engine

Less then 0.25% of the campaigns:

GURPS
Pokemon
AD&D
Mutants and Masterminds
Cyberpunk 2020
LANCER RPG
D&D 4e
Velocity System
Stars Without Number
Cypher System Games
Chroniques Oubliées
13th Age RPG
Ironsworn
AEG
The Witcher
Dungeon Crawl Classics
d20 Modern
Start Trek Adventures
Shadow of the Demon Lord
Le Donjon de Naheulbeuk

Less than 0.1% of the campaigns:

Traveller
A Song of Ice and Fire RPG
Anima: Beyone Fantasy
Legend of the Five Rings
Monster of the Week
Powered by the Apocalypse
Tales from the Loop
Aventures
Delta Green
Basic Fantasy RPG
Anime Campaign
AGE System
City of Mist
Alice is Missing
Original D&D
Genesys
GUMSHOE
Exalted
Symbaroum
Splittermond
Old School Essentials
Burning Wheel
Palladium Games
Fallout
The One Ring
Mothership
RuneQuest
Coriolis

(And many more below 0.04%)

Willie the Duck
2021-04-29, 07:54 AM
It's not without biases.
But it's pretty difficult to find numbers about that many different RPGs condensed on the same platform.
I'd say it can prove that something is popular enough, but cannot prove that something is not popular, as the community could just be using other places (like real life).

I've tried to spot all the RPGs that could be considered as Scifi and underline them (I might have missed some), but I will admit that a lot of them have a big fantastic component:
Major RPGs on Roll20:
<list>
This, to me, says that there have to be a lot of grognards out there not using Roll20. Traveller and Runequest (and GURPS) are well outside their heyday, but they each have some extensive followings.

MoiMagnus
2021-04-29, 08:00 AM
This, to me, says that there have to be a lot of grognards out there not using Roll20. Traveller and Runequest (and GURPS) are well outside their heyday, but they each have some extensive followings.

I'd also note that 0.1% from Travellers is still 8000 players on Roll 20. Well enough to maintain a big player base.

Jason
2021-04-29, 11:06 AM
I'd also note that 0.1% from Travellers is still 8000 players on Roll 20. Well enough to maintain a big player base.
I agree, it's hard to get accurate figures for games being played.
I don't think 8,000 players is enough to support the volume of materials that Mongoose is producing for Traveller right now, though. They are producing a lot of adventures, at $15 a pop for .pdfs (around $25 for the print versions), and only the referees (game masters) buy those typically. 8,000 players would mean what, 2,000 referees?

Most of their recent Kickstarters have had about 1,200 backers. What do you suppose is the ratio of "Kickstarter backers to players"?

Mastikator
2021-04-29, 12:17 PM
I agree, it's hard to get accurate figures for games being played.
I don't think 8,000 players is enough to support the volume of materials that Mongoose is producing for Traveller right now, though. They are producing a lot of adventures, at $15 a pop for .pdfs (around $25 for the print versions), and only the referees (game masters) buy those typically. 8,000 players would mean what, 2,000 referees?

Most of their recent Kickstarters have had about 1,200 backers. What do you suppose is the ratio of "Kickstarter backers to players"?

To play something as niche as Traveler you're probably a die hard fan already, so the ratio is most likely very high :/

Corsair14
2021-04-29, 12:41 PM
Just off hand my guess would be either Starfinder or Star Wars. D6 Star Wars by West End games still has a major following due to its open nature and ease of play plus despite being OOP for at least 1 decade if not two, all the books are available free and new stuff is continually added from its almost cult-like following. Heck we played a fairly long campaign over facebook chat during covid lockdowns and social distancing and had a great time since theater of the mind works really well. I don't know if the more modern square based tactical games can do the same thing effectively. Then you have the folks for some reason playing the FFG version and even some SAGA. On reddit some guys got together and made Star Wars 5E based off of DnD 5e and it looks very good and professional. So if you lump all the star wars games together I think you would find SW is by and large the biggest sci-fi game currently.

Sol
2021-04-29, 03:37 PM
Then you have the folks for some reason playing the FFG version [of star wars rpg]

I'm a fan. The narrative dice system is pretty great, once you get used to it, which admittedly takes a while.

I definitely recommend it if the lack of sciency science doesn't bother you too much. I thought it would bother me more than it has. It's pretty easy to find games with 0 force content -- the galaxy is vast, after all.

It also...really doesn't cater itself very well to wanting or needing a map or power macros, which severely limit the usefulness of roll20 for it, even though there is a roll20 framework. I suspect that that significantly affects its representation within roll20's numbers. Every campaign i've played it in has been either play-by-post or run entirely within discord.

No idea what its player base might be, but its official discord has ~4k members, and there's multiple competing discord bots, multiple competing online character sheets, and multiple competing online databases under active development, which implies to me that it's got a decently healthy base.

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-29, 03:51 PM
I'm a fan. The narrative dice system is pretty great, once you get used to it, which admittedly takes a while.

I really, really didn't like it. While I admittedly only played two sessions, I just had too many rolls where I ended up with almost every die showing Advantage but no successes. On a nearly min-maxed engineering droid (I only had 5 Int when I should have gone for 6) trying to do basic tasks. Plus I do not like proprietary dice.

I', not saying that the game is terrible, but I got the dice system and just didn't like it one bit. I would have much rather been playing Stellar Adventures or Traveller with their simpler pass/fail systems. The game does what it's set out to do, but I really hate how it does it and would rather dig out Fate.

Sol
2021-04-29, 04:12 PM
I really, really didn't like it. While I admittedly only played two sessions, I just had too many rolls where I ended up with almost every die showing Advantage but no successes. On a nearly min-maxed engineering droid (I only had 5 Int when I should have gone for 6) trying to do basic tasks. Plus I do not like proprietary dice.

I', not saying that the game is terrible, but I got the dice system and just didn't like it one bit. I would have much rather been playing Stellar Adventures or Traveller with their simpler pass/fail systems. The game does what it's set out to do, but I really hate how it does it and would rather dig out Fate.

Totally fair criticism of it (though i've found that most people deep into the system will rage at you if you have anything over a 4 in a stat, so your 5 should have been sufficient). No one dice system is for everyone! I found it favorable compared to missing in dnd and having nothing interesting happen, which on lots of builds happens on like, anything under a 7 or 8. At least with a bunch of advantages (or threats! or despairs! or a triumph!), something happens, which makes the occasional full wash kind of notable and funny and require a narrative description for how literally nothing occurred.

Totally with you on proprietary dice being awful in a physical gaming world. Post-pandemic, it's not a game i'd want to play irl for precisely that reason. Online tools fully mitigate that, though.

Jason
2021-04-29, 04:58 PM
I am also not a fan of FFG Star Wars, and I played a two-year long campaign (at the table, not electronically). 'Nough said.

Traveller is niche and all the players are fanatical die-hard fans? Ouch.

Mechalich
2021-04-29, 05:13 PM
Most of their recent Kickstarters have had about 1,200 backers. What do you suppose is the ratio of "Kickstarter backers to players"?

It's potentially as low as 1:1. Modern layout and production technologies mean that RPG books can be produced for a song - art costs more than all other expenses combined. A gaming company can churn out endless piles of material on the back of a handful of freelancers while selling a tiny number of copies and still not suffer a loss. Onyx Path has been doing exactly this for over a decade, to the point of producing books with mere hundreds of backers.

Jason
2021-04-29, 05:22 PM
There are 150,000 users with accounts on Mongoose's online forum. That seems a lot if there are only 1,200 active players.
I suppose some of them are Paranoia fans instead of Traveller.

Mechalich
2021-04-29, 05:27 PM
There are 150,000 users with accounts on Mongoose's online forum. That seems a lot if there are only 1,200 active players.
I suppose some of them are Paranoia fans instead of Traveller.

Um...there are 142,000 users with accounts on this forum, and I doubt there are even 500 reasonably active posters. Internet numbers are funny like that.

Telok
2021-04-29, 05:45 PM
There are 150,000 users with accounts on Mongoose's online forum. That seems a lot if there are only 1,200 active players.
I suppose some of them are Paranoia fans instead of Traveller.

Some of us are both.

Edit: Opinion: Starfinder is less science fiction than Star Wars, it is literally a space wizards game.

Suggestion: Clarify if you're looking for a space fantasy rpg, science fiction rpg, or a blend. I mean, Paranoia has more science bits than Star Wars or Starfinder.

Jason
2021-04-29, 06:17 PM
Um...there are 142,000 users with accounts on this forum, and I doubt there are even 500 reasonably active posters. Internet numbers are funny like that.

But I'm sure there are more than 500 active readers of the comic.

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-29, 06:23 PM
Totally fair criticism of it (though i've found that most people deep into the system will rage at you if you have anything over a 4 in a stat, so your 5 should have been sufficient). No one dice system is for everyone! I found it favorable compared to missing in dnd and having nothing interesting happen, which on lots of builds happens on like, anything under a 7 or 8. At least with a bunch of advantages (or threats! or despairs! or a triumph!), something happens, which makes the occasional full wash kind of notable and funny and require a narrative description for how literally nothing occurred.

It worked fine in combat, trying to work out what five Advantage and zero Successes or Triumphs on a roll to modify a swoop bike is hard. The darn bounty hunter left it in the hallway, I thought I'd make it collapsible so people could still move around the ship. A standard D&D skill check would have been easier for everybody in that situation, a failure by two would have failed but let me put it back together, while a massive failure would have given me spare parts at best

But yes, no dice system is one size fits all. Which means playing science fiction games can be so much nicer, because it can be much easier to get people to try a new one as compared with fantasy games.


Totally with you on proprietary dice being awful in a physical gaming world. Post-pandemic, it's not a game i'd want to play irl for precisely that reason. Online tools fully mitigate that, though.

Yeah, although to be fair I do own a bunch of Fate/Fudge dice, partially because they aren't required.

SunsetWaraxe
2021-04-29, 06:53 PM
For the last ten or so years, the answer has to be Warhammer 40k and Star Wars. For 40k, I do not know many people who have played the new RPG but Dark Heresy (and its derivative games) are very popular and well liked. Star Wars... You either like the FFG version of the game with its weird dice or you loathe it. I know very few people who have mild opinions on the game. Star Wars Saga Edition is, IMO, one of the best d20 Sci-Fi games ever made, which you can easily modified to fit pretty much any type of Sci-Fi game you want to run. WEG's d6 system has a lot of old school fans too.

Starfinder is also very popular and probably has the best ground game of any sci-fi game (thanks to Starfinder Society).

I would not count Star Trek out, as the new system is a blast to play and I have seen people play it IRL (but it is definitely well below the above three).

Infinity is a very, very niche (but super fun) wargame that has its own RPG, which uses the same system as the Star Trek RPG. Quite fun.

Personally, I tend to DM a lot of Stars Without Number but it is very niche.

I recently played some Savage Worlds Rifts, which was great! Savage Worlds is a much simpler system, which is appealing to many (due to how convoluted and dense the old Palladium books were).

Calthropstu
2021-04-29, 07:32 PM
After measuring the bases for each game, I have found that battletech uses the largest bases of those I have access to. Hope this helps!

Spriteless
2021-04-29, 07:58 PM
I find that whatever I am willing to GM has the highest player base around me.

But, sadly, it might be that D&D's Ravnica and Eberron settings have a higher player base than a purely SF RPG.

xaosseed
2021-04-30, 04:28 AM
Just to chip in that we can look at the ICV2 numbers of what game stores think are the hottest games for another perspective on what is popular - broadly; retailers think Star Wars and Starfinder sell with Alien as a hot new thing.

The following is a ranked list of how often games have placed in the top 5 since 2015 (13 reports; D&D appeared in all of them to give a sense of perspective)

Dungeons & Dragons 13
Pathfinder 12
Star Wars (FFG) 11
Starfinder 5
Shadowrun 6
Fantasy/Dragon Age 3
World of Darkness 3
Alien 2
Cyberpunk 2
Iron Kingdoms 1
Adventures in Middle Earth 1
Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition 1
Genesys (FFG) 1
Legend of the Five Rings (FFG) 1
Star Trek Adventures 1
Fate 1

This focuses on the US market but given that is ~2/3 of the whole show we can say it should be representative. I am alas too new to post a link - google "ICV2 rpg sales"

Lord Torath
2021-04-30, 07:09 AM
No Palladium Robotech?

:frown:

Glorthindel
2021-04-30, 07:28 AM
As far as Warhammer 40k goes, I have noticed from a long time in the community, that there is a notable UK and EU skew to its popularity, with it being notably less popular in the US. It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.

I notice no one has mentioned Alternity. Granted, its first edition has been dead as long as TSR, but I know it had a kickstarter new edition in the last few years (as my brother got it), but never seen anyone playing it.

Jason
2021-04-30, 07:29 AM
No Palladium Robotech?

:frown:
Hasn't that game been out of print for 20+ years?

Batcathat
2021-04-30, 07:32 AM
It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.

I imagine that might be part of the appeal. A game like Grand Theft Auto is extremely popular in the US despite parodying a lot about American culture. A lot of people like laughing about themselves (or possibly laughing about countrymen they disagree with).

Lord Torath
2021-04-30, 08:54 AM
Hasn't that game been out of print for 20+ years?Yes. Yes it has.

Corsair14
2021-04-30, 09:46 AM
Just because a game is out of print doesn't mean it isn't still an active game which is why going by 2015 and later is inefficient and would give you false numbers. There are a load of players still playing d6 Star Wars due to simply being a good game with a ton of material available for free and no proprietary dice. They also reprinted the anniversary book a year or so back.

Hell, AD&D 2nd and 1st editions still have a very popular following with large numbers of people playing them and they are what 20+ years OOP? I would venture to say they are likely the 3rd most popular ttrpg being played even.

I personally don't know anyone playing Robotech or Rifts but both are difficult mechanics games to play and the latter is still in print and releasing new material. I do know people still playing the long out of print Heroes Unlimited from Palladium. I am aware that the Savage Worlds version of Rifts seems to be popular so there is that and it is likely a strong #3 of popular sci-fi games.

Just at a guess I would say Star Wars in general split between the three systems is easily #1 so pick your poison on which. Starfinder is likely #2 because it is in print and is being pushed by a strong and popular company. #3 would be Savage World Rifts mainly because I hear a lot of chatter all the time so that might just be my little bubble. I honestly have never seen or heard anyone talk about playing or having played Traveler. I know of the system but not much about it.

These are just sci-fi. If you want to class cyberpunk as sci-fi then Shadowrun and Cyberpunk are probably neck and neck for #2 and #3 easily pushing aside everything except Star Wars. I think if they keep pushing Cyberpunk Red then it and its so much simpler system will eclipse the dice nightmare that is modern Shadowrun in the near future.

Anonymouswizard
2021-04-30, 09:50 AM
It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.

As said above it's probably the reason, both Warhammer and 40k draw from and parody European cultures, and honestly isn't much kinder to the UK then anybody else. I think it's relative lack of popularity in America might partially be it's lack of a true America parody combined with not grabbing the teenaged market as it did here (I mean, did you ever see who hung out at GW stores before the pandemic?).

If any of my friends and partners have ever played wargames it was Warhammer, probably 40k, and they played it in their teenaged years. Even the ones who've played other games began with Warhammer. It dominates the more casual and introductory market.

xaosseed
2021-04-30, 02:06 PM
Fair point on 2015 being pretty recent - I have dug back as far as I could find which is only to 2005 - so we are still missing the 80s / 90s but this is what we have to work with. I have a vague memory of old White Dwarf surveys that covered what people were playing? Anyone who could point to those - that would be great.

So - from 50 icv2.com retailer surveys back to 2004 of "Top Five Roleplaying Games" we get:
Dungeons & Dragons 48
Pathfinder 31
World of Darkness 23
Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader 20
Star Wars (FFG) 18
Shadowrun 17
Fantasy/Dragon Age 11
Exalted 8
Mutants & Masterminds 7
WHFRP 2E (BI/GR) 7
Starfinder 5
Iron Kingdoms 5
Fate Core System 4
Mongoose (Traveller?) 4
WHFRP 3E (FFG) 4
Green Ronin** 3
GURPS 3
Scion 3
Alien 2
Cyberpunk 2
Mutants and Masterminds, inc. DC 2
Numenera 2
Song of Ice and Fire 2
Star Wars (WotC) 2
Adventures in Middle Earth 1
Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition 1
Genesys (FFG) 1
Legend of the Five Rings (FFG) 1
Star Trek Adventures 1
Fate 1
Battlestar Galactica 1
BESM 1
Dresden Files 1
Dungeon Crawl Classics 1
Marvel Heroic Roleplaying 1
The One Ring 1

The notable change is there was a Mongoose (assume Traveller?) moment back in 2005.

So thats the data - my story says there wasn't a lot of it around when we were playing back in the 90s. If it wasn't fantasy it was X-files or Matrix inspired 'shades and trench-coats' stuff - either Shadowrun, Con-X or a fairly splatter-fest take on WoD - all the sci-fi stuff was on the wargame tables as Battletech or 40k. I knew some guys who ran a long-running Star Wars campaign, there were a few stand-out LARPs on the con circuit but that was it. If you were throwing dice at a table it was lots and lots of D&D and L5R, maybe WoD or Shadowrun.

Anyone any ideas why our screens are full of sci-fi - so obviously people have time for it - but not our tables?

Jason
2021-04-30, 02:18 PM
Mongoose's 1st edition of Traveller came out in 2008. They put out the XP version of Paranoia in 2004, so it's probably Paranoia that was a hit in 2005.

In the '90s for sci-fi RPGs I was playing Traveller (MegaTraveller, TNE, T4, and GURPS Traveller), Mechwarrior, Shadowrun, Rifts (a very little), 2300 AD (a nice long campaign), Star Wars (WEG), Star Trek (Fasa), various GURPS settings (I played a dolphin in a GURPS Uplift game), Paranoia, Star Frontiers, and Cyberpunk (my group liked Shadowrun better). Twilight:2000 and Spelljammer probably don't count as sci-fi.

I bought but never played Space 1889 and TSR's Buck Rogers game too.

lightningcat
2021-04-30, 03:59 PM
Some of us are both.

Edit: Opinion: Starfinder is less science fiction than Star Wars, it is literally a space wizards game.

Suggestion: Clarify if you're looking for a space fantasy rpg, science fiction rpg, or a blend. I mean, Paranoia has more science bits than Star Wars or Starfinder.

While I just started a Starfinder campaign recently, I have found it to be about as science fiction as Star Wars, and a bit more so than Warhammer 40k. Both of which I have played several campaigns in.
I have no opinions on Paranoia, as I have only looked through one of the earlier versions, and didn't find it to be what I wanted then.

SunsetWaraxe
2021-05-03, 02:43 PM
As far as Warhammer 40k goes, I have noticed from a long time in the community, that there is a notable UK and EU skew to its popularity, with it being notably less popular in the US. It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.

I notice no one has mentioned Alternity. Granted, its first edition has been dead as long as TSR, but I know it had a kickstarter new edition in the last few years (as my brother got it), but never seen anyone playing it.

Warhammer 40k is, by far, the most popular build-and-paint war game in the US. Bar none. Other games have popped up that challenge 40k for dominance but they always wind up failing to maintain their popularity (i.e. Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Star Wars Legion, ASoIF, Mantic, Flames of War, Bolt Action, Malifaux, Frostgrave, etc.).

In May of 2020, Games Workshop operated 153 stores in the US, while it operated 140 stores in the whole of the UK. The UK is 40 times smaller than the US, yet it operated almost the same number of stores. The market penetration GW has in the UK is in a whole other league as compared to the US, where GW relies far more on independent retailers to market and stock their games. :smallsmile:

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-03, 03:25 PM
Warhammer 40k is, by far, the most popular build-and-paint war game in the US. Bar none. Other games have popped up that challenge 40k for dominance but they always wind up failing to maintain their popularity (i.e. Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Star Wars Legion, ASoIF, Mantic, Flames of War, Bolt Action, Malifaux, Frostgrave, etc.).

In May of 2020, Games Workshop operated 153 stores in the US, while it operated 140 stores in the whole of the UK. The UK is 40 times smaller than the US, yet it operated almost the same number of stores. The market penetration GW has in the UK is in a whole other league as compared to the US, where GW relies far more on independent retailers to market and stock their games. :smallsmile:

Yeah, it kind of weirded me out going into a games shop in the US and seeing GW kits the first time it happened.

I will note that, while it's not as easy to get people together as it is for a D&D game, a 40k RPG is in my experience one of the easier sells over here. About as easy as Star Wars, which shows how massive the game is among my generation (I joke about how the only real options for teenagers in my hometown were Warhammer and amorous activities. This is a bald faced lie, as binge drinking was also an option). I also sometimes get disappointed that WFRP isn't the most popular fantasy RPG over here, and that most people I know haven't heard about games from British publishers/

Corsair14
2021-05-04, 07:07 AM
GW has always been big here in the States in the table top community. I have never had to try hard to find a store to buy stuff although an actual GW store for me is a new concept. In fact, even deploying to different parts of the country for missions I would typically bring a small numbered force to get a game in pretty much expecting there to be somewhere nearby to play and have never been disappointed. I can drive 45 minutes and be at 7 stores including the one actual GW store(that I rarely go to) on a Saturday during normal times(ie not covid) and expect to be able to get a pick up game. It is the game store standard game for in store gaming. That said, he was asking about RPGs and Warhammer 40k isn't an rpg. It has that fantasy flight game based off of it but those never really got off the ground anywhere I have been although maybe there is a thriving at home community playing it I just never heard of.

Jason
2021-05-04, 10:31 AM
40K has been consistently popular in the US since the early '90s, when I had time and money to buy and paint miniatures and my group was into it.
Today most of the game stores in my area are 40K and board game focused, with some Magic: the Gathering and then RPGs something of an afterthought, usually only the latest D&D titles and a smattering of other new stuff. Amazon and .pdf downloads have basically killed the RPG-focused game store of my youth.

Corsair14
2021-05-04, 01:12 PM
Agreed. Card Boxes were starting to hit the game stores here to the point where they wouldn't even think about opening a store since a good chunk of most any store's income is card games. I am hoping that Covid's shuttering of many of them will give regular stores a chance to move into the market. I have a bunch of stores in that 45 minute area but not a single one inside 30 minutes with tolls and I live 17 minutes from the Orlando Airport and 20 or so from UCF, the biggest on campus university in the country. The card boxes though shut everyone else out on this end of town.

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-05, 04:50 PM
I notice no one has mentioned Alternity. Granted, its first edition has been dead as long as TSR, but I know it had a kickstarter new edition in the last few years (as my brother got it), but never seen anyone playing it.

2e's come out, and pretty much gone unnoticed. It's a shame, as a crunchy but not overly heavy generic SF it's actually pretty decent, and levelled but classless is the least common way to do an RPG.

But it's nothing special, Protostar seems to be pretty generic, and the more out there Dark Nebula might be too close conceptually to Fading Suns. It's not bad, it's incredibly solid, but there's not a ton going for it. Even a decent 'build an alien PC race' system would have helped it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2021-05-07, 02:32 PM
I think part of the issue, at least as I see it, is that sci-fi games tend to rely more heavily on a particular setting or "brand" as central to their appeal: you're not playing a sci-fi game, you're playing a Star Wars game, or a Warhammer 40K game, or a Traveller game. You're coming as much for the franchise as you are for the roleplay experience.

Even more ostensibly generic games like Scum and Villainy not tied to a specific property have some specific worldbuilding that informs what stories it's trying to tell and what characters the players are incentivized to play. Beyond that, the only other sci-fi games I've encountered are space-themed hacks of generic game systems like FATE or Savage Worlds, often attempts to recreate a sci-fi property that doesn't have its own tabletop spinoff, like Mass Effect or something, and then of course there's the inevitable attempt to twist and cram a homebrew sci-fi setting into D&D's ruleset.

It's a lot easier for a game to speak in generalities with a fantasy setting for an RPG, but from my observation people's expectations are higher for sci-fi. Like, if games were ice cream, fantasy is vanilla, but in scifi's case there's things like rocky road and neapolitan and there's even mint chocolate chip and cookies and cream but no one orders just plain chocolate, if that analogy makes sense. :smallconfused:

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-07, 04:11 PM
I think part of the issue, at least as I see it, is that sci-fi games tend to rely more heavily on a particular setting or "brand" as central to their appeal: you're not playing a sci-fi game, you're playing a Star Wars game, or a Warhammer 40K game, or a Traveller game. You're coming as much for the franchise as you are for the roleplay experience.

Even more ostensibly generic games like Scum and Villainy not tied to a specific property have some specific worldbuilding that informs what stories it's trying to tell and what characters the players are incentivized to play. Beyond that, the only other sci-fi games I've encountered are space-themed hacks of generic game systems like FATE or Savage Worlds, often attempts to recreate a sci-fi property that doesn't have its own tabletop spinoff, like Mass Effect or something, and then of course there's the inevitable attempt to twist and cram a homebrew sci-fi setting into D&D's ruleset.

It's a lot easier for a game to speak in generalities with a fantasy setting for an RPG, but from my observation people's expectations are higher for sci-fi. Like, if games were ice cream, fantasy is vanilla, but in scifi's case there's things like rocky road and neapolitan and there's even mint chocolate chip and cookies and cream but no one orders just plain chocolate, if that analogy makes sense. :smallconfused:

Honestly, I don't think that it's that fantasy RPGs are actually more generic, it's just that people assume they are. It's also a bit weird that we use 'fantasy RPG' and actually mean 'Heroic Fantasy RPG' most of the time, but we don't really tend to assume a specific genre of science fiction RPG, lumping Space Opera, Cyberpunk, and even post-apocalyptic RPGs into the group.

In theory a generic fantasy game would handle European Heroic Fantasy, Dark Mythological Fantasy, and High Wuxia all under the same ruleset. I can't actually think of anything that does, at least without really getting on the sourcebook treadmill. In fact I own more fantasy RPGs than science fiction RPGs, and while they tend to be less honest about their assumed setting (for Heroic Medieval Europe ones at least) it's still there. The way you set up your magic system matters as much as the way you set up star travel. There's a reason the 'D&D in Middle-Earth' book suggests that you shouldn't use the core classes that didn't get reprinted.

That's why Osprey Games has been able to release four fantasy RPGs (with a fifth on the way) and one science fiction RPG in the last two years. The SF one, those Dark Places, is exactly as you described for SF RPGs, while the explicit setting is limited to two pages and what we can extrapolated from it's talk of ships and bases, it has consistent theming that's one part Alien, one part Western, and arguably one part Revelation Space. But the exact same thing can be applied to the fantasy games, whether that's Romance of the Perilous Land's mix of British folklore with some elements of D&D, Paleomythic and it's stone age Conanism, Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades and it's more gritty take on Wuxia, or Jackals and it's bronze age war setting. And I'm being somewhat unfair to all the fantasy RPGs, as it's hard to get every element in a single phrase.

Archpaladin Zousha
2021-05-07, 05:46 PM
Honestly, I don't think that it's that fantasy RPGs are actually more generic, it's just that people assume they are. It's also a bit weird that we use 'fantasy RPG' and actually mean 'Heroic Fantasy RPG' most of the time, but we don't really tend to assume a specific genre of science fiction RPG, lumping Space Opera, Cyberpunk, and even post-apocalyptic RPGs into the group.

In theory a generic fantasy game would handle European Heroic Fantasy, Dark Mythological Fantasy, and High Wuxia all under the same ruleset. I can't actually think of anything that does, at least without really getting on the sourcebook treadmill. In fact I own more fantasy RPGs than science fiction RPGs, and while they tend to be less honest about their assumed setting (for Heroic Medieval Europe ones at least) it's still there. The way you set up your magic system matters as much as the way you set up star travel. There's a reason the 'D&D in Middle-Earth' book suggests that you shouldn't use the core classes that didn't get reprinted.

That's why Osprey Games has been able to release four fantasy RPGs (with a fifth on the way) and one science fiction RPG in the last two years. The SF one, those Dark Places, is exactly as you described for SF RPGs, while the explicit setting is limited to two pages and what we can extrapolated from it's talk of ships and bases, it has consistent theming that's one part Alien, one part Western, and arguably one part Revelation Space. But the exact same thing can be applied to the fantasy games, whether that's Romance of the Perilous Land's mix of British folklore with some elements of D&D, Paleomythic and it's stone age Conanism, Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades and it's more gritty take on Wuxia, or Jackals and it's bronze age war setting. And I'm being somewhat unfair to all the fantasy RPGs, as it's hard to get every element in a single phrase.
I mean, the reason for that assumption is because Dungeons and Dragons has been around so long, and cast such a wide shadow, that most gamers just default to it, regardless of specifics. Forgotten Realms, over the years, has tried to cram all those different styles you mentioned in to the same setting, and it's only become more pronounced as FR became the primary D&D setting through sheer inertia. And Pathfinder did the same thing with Golarion. When people say "Fantasy RPG," most of the time what they mean is "Dungeons and Dragons," and what I'm trying to say is that there isn't really a "Dungeons and Dragons" tier sci-fi RPG, though Lord knows Starfinder is TRYING to be that...

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-07, 06:08 PM
I mean, the reason for that assumption is because Dungeons and Dragons has been around so long, and cast such a wide shadow, that most gamers just default to it, regardless of specifics. Forgotten Realms, over the years, has tried to cram all those different styles you mentioned in to the same setting, and it's only become more pronounced as FR became the primary D&D setting through sheer inertia. And Pathfinder did the same thing with Golarion. When people say "Fantasy RPG," most of the time what they mean is "Dungeons and Dragons," and what I'm trying to say is that there isn't really a "Dungeons and Dragons" tier sci-fi RPG, though Lord knows Starfinder is TRYING to be that...

Yeah, I understand and agree with that (and am heavily annoyed by it). I get really, really annoyed when people mistake 'common set of assumptions' for 'generic' fpor precisely that reason. Plus urgh, D&D is so bad at Wuxia as written (but I understand this forum has worked out a decent way with ToB and 3.X), but I don't want to do another rant.

The only other RPG that is D&D tier is, honestly, oWoD, and even it's fallen by the wayside. But that's a somewhat separate discussion. But lumping all of fantasy (or SF) together annoys me because it ignores all the wonderful diversity in the genre. D&D especially annoys me because by sticking everything together it loses a lot of nuance and causes issues (do not get me started on monks versus Monks*, or the implication that Fighters aren't martial artists created by the rules).

* Oh, and how the game refuses to try to integrate them into the default fluff properly.

TyGuy
2021-05-08, 12:57 AM
I don't know if it's a force that pulls people to fantasy and very established IP, but the mental exertion to describe/ imagine/ visualize the world in the aforementioned is much less than unique SciFi.

If I say "you enter a warmly lit tavern, a halfing host greets you" there's enough common canon that you can fill in much of the gaps and picture a good chunk of the scene.

If I say "you enter the clean cantina, a green twi'lek host greets you" if you know star wars, there may be a few questions to help picture it. But again, a good chunk of the details can be visualized off one sentence.

Now I say "you enter the xeno-bar, a gorshmoosh host greets you", to most people that does nothing to begin painting a picture.

A lot more elaboration is required in the last example. I wonder if it isn't too taxing for the largely casual newcomers to ttrpgs.

Batcathat
2021-05-08, 03:55 AM
I mean, the reason for that assumption is because Dungeons and Dragons has been around so long, and cast such a wide shadow, that most gamers just default to it, regardless of specifics. Forgotten Realms, over the years, has tried to cram all those different styles you mentioned in to the same setting, and it's only become more pronounced as FR became the primary D&D setting through sheer inertia. And Pathfinder did the same thing with Golarion. When people say "Fantasy RPG," most of the time what they mean is "Dungeons and Dragons," and what I'm trying to say is that there isn't really a "Dungeons and Dragons" tier sci-fi RPG, though Lord knows Starfinder is TRYING to be that...

It's interesting to note that this situation is basically a mirror of fantasy and sci-fi as a whole, where Lord of the Rings is still basically the fantasy novel to the point that having elves and dwarves is basically considered the default. Meanwhile, there are some big sci-fi franchises (Star Wars1, Star Trek, etc.) but none with the sheer influence on the genre that LotR has, I think.

(1 Let's not get into the whole "Is Star Wars sci-fi or fantasy?" discussion right now)

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-08, 05:09 AM
I don't know if it's a force that pulls people to fantasy and very established IP, but the mental exertion to describe/ imagine/ visualize the world in the aforementioned is much less than unique SciFi.

If I say "you enter a warmly lit tavern, a halfing host greets you" there's enough common canon that you can fill in much of the gaps and picture a good chunk of the scene.

If I say "you enter the clean cantina, a green twi'lek host greets you" if you know star wars, there may be a few questions to help picture it. But again, a good chunk of the details can be visualized off one sentence.

Now I say "you enter the xeno-bar, a gorshmoosh host greets you", to most people that does nothing to begin painting a picture.

A lot more elaboration is required in the last example. I wonder if it isn't too taxing for the largely casual newcomers to ttrpgs.

'You enter the bar and order a drink from the bartender, her replacement arm whirring as she pours soybooze into a glass.'

See, it's easier if you give science fiction the same treatment as fantasy and actually incorporate elements of a subgenre.

'You enter the xeno-bar, and are by a lilac lagomorph in a top hat.'

warty goblin
2021-05-08, 11:08 AM
It's interesting to note that this situation is basically a mirror of fantasy and sci-fi as a whole, where Lord of the Rings is still basically the fantasy novel to the point that having elves and dwarves is basically considered the default. Meanwhile, there are some big sci-fi franchises (Star Wars1, Star Trek, etc.) but none with the sheer influence on the genre that LotR has, I think.

(1 Let's not get into the whole "Is Star Wars sci-fi or fantasy?" discussion right now)

I don't think this is true of fantasy anymore, outside of gaming. I can't think of the last time I've seen a fantasy novel with dwarves or elves in it that wasn't set in a universe created like 20+ years ago. Anymore one hardly gets any sapient species besides humans at all. Nowadays it's all oppressed wizards solving colonialism.

Within gaming related properties these remain much more default, probably because they require basically no explanation at a thematic level, and remain useful shorthands for particular gameplay archetypes. If you want to be tough, go dwarf. Fast, go elf, etc.

Batcathat
2021-05-08, 11:53 AM
I don't think this is true of fantasy anymore, outside of gaming. I can't think of the last time I've seen a fantasy novel with dwarves or elves in it that wasn't set in a universe created like 20+ years ago. Anymore one hardly gets any sapient species besides humans at all. Nowadays it's all oppressed wizards solving colonialism.

I agree that it's less true than it used to be, at least. But I do think Tolkien's influence is stronger than any comparable author in sci-fi. The most obvious stuff like elves and dwarves may be fading, but the idea of default fantasy taking place in a vaguely European, vaguely medieval world is still fairly common, even if it's growing weaker.

But you probably have a point about that development being slower in gaming (both tabletop and video) than fiction in general. Presumably an effect of D&Ds influence.

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-08, 01:30 PM
*cough* Doc Smith *cough* Asimov *cough*

Archpaladin Zousha
2021-05-08, 05:34 PM
Yeah, I understand and agree with that (and am heavily annoyed by it). I get really, really annoyed when people mistake 'common set of assumptions' for 'generic' for precisely that reason.
Yeh, it bugs me too.

Plus urgh, D&D is so bad at Wuxia as written (but I understand this forum has worked out a decent way with ToB and 3.X), but I don't want to do another rant.
No need, I understand EXACTLY what you're saying. And honestly, if you want to really get into a Wuxia story, you really have to play a game specifically designed for it. We are starting to see more games that do that, though, which is a good thing. That's also part of why we're seeing Afrofuturism games and stuff which is cool too!

The only other RPG that is D&D tier is, honestly, oWoD, and even it's fallen by the wayside. But that's a somewhat separate discussion. But lumping all of fantasy (or SF) together annoys me because it ignores all the wonderful diversity in the genre. D&D especially annoys me because by sticking everything together it loses a lot of nuance and causes issues (do not get me started on monks versus Monks*, or the implication that Fighters aren't martial artists created by the rules).

* Oh, and how the game refuses to try to integrate them into the default fluff properly.
While I greatly enjoy Golarion as a setting, your point stands (at least Paizo is now attempting to think through some of the stuff in their setting and fill in the blanks with their 2nd Edition). What I'm trying to say is I think that specificity is sort of necessary in a sci-fi game of any kind, and it's more that the fantasy genre is catching up to that diversity after having been dominated by D&D for so long.

I don't think this is true of fantasy anymore, outside of gaming. I can't think of the last time I've seen a fantasy novel with dwarves or elves in it that wasn't set in a universe created like 20+ years ago. Anymore one hardly gets any sapient species besides humans at all. Nowadays it's all oppressed wizards solving colonialism.

Within gaming related properties these remain much more default, probably because they require basically no explanation at a thematic level, and remain useful shorthands for particular gameplay archetypes. If you want to be tough, go dwarf. Fast, go elf, etc.
EXACTLY! And we're starting to see more fantasy GAMES about oppressed wizards solving colonialism or other such stuff, which is a very cool thing! Like I said, it feels like this stuff was more present in sci-fi than it was in the fantasy genre, and what's happening now is fantasy is playing catch up as a genre, and that's why you have 10 different sci-fi games, each with their own specific niche, but for fantasy games people just seem to instinctually try and shape their ideas to fit D&D's mechanics and core assumptions, rather than come up with their own mechanics that better suit their game and the story their game is trying to tell. About the only fantasy game I can think of that dodged this was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and that's mainly because it has that degree of specificity in its setting and core assumptions is powerful enough to override D&D's hegemony, but also condemns it to niche status.

Jason
2021-05-09, 02:01 AM
*cough* Doc Smith *cough* Asimov *cough*
But even Lensmen or Foundation, or Starship Troopers or Dune or Ringworld or Neuromancer, they're all great books, but none of them are really the Lord of the Rings of science fiction. For whatever reason there is no equivalent. Nothing quite so obviously dominant in its influence on everything that came after it.

Star Wars is the equivalent for science fiction film, but it didn't affect sci-fi literature nearly as much.

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-09, 05:28 AM
Yeh, it bugs me too.

No need, I understand EXACTLY what you're saying. And honestly, if you want to really get into a Wuxia story, you really have to play a game specifically designed for it. We are starting to see more games that do that, though, which is a good thing. That's also part of why we're seeing Afrofuturism games and stuff which is cool too!

Oh yeah, I own three Wuxia games they cover the genre in different ways (Legends of the Wulin, Win: the Warring States, and Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades). I actually live the fastest RPG scene at the moment, except for D&D's ridiculous dominance.

One of the things I've tried to do with my collection is pick up games that aren't Americentric, it can be a problem for games set in the modern era of future. Don't get me wrong, some of my favourite games focus on the US, but picking up European games has been a nice experience (UK ones are especially nice just because in reading the spellings I see every day).


While I greatly enjoy Golarion as a setting, your point stands (at least Paizo is now attempting to think through some of the stuff in their setting and fill in the blanks with their 2nd Edition). What I'm trying to say is I think that specificity is sort of necessary in a sci-fi game of any kind, and it's more that the fantasy genre is catching up to that diversity after having been dominated by D&D for so long.

Yeah, honestly if D&D died out and fantasy RPGs engraved their diversity instead of trying to cram everything in I think it'll be better.

D&D has always worked as a high magic heroic fantasy game, and in some editions even a low magic one. The issue isn't the existence of D&D or Pathfinder, but the fact that they try to pretend they're everything.

I like Starfinder though, desire people trying to bash it into shapes it isn't I think it's a good mix of soft-medium science fiction and heroic fantasy. The most I do is change the Drift to work more like standard hyperspace or substitute another FTL system (generally working at an assumption of one parsec per point of drive rating per day).


EXACTLY! And we're starting to see more fantasy GAMES about oppressed wizards solving colonialism or other such stuff, which is a very cool thing! Like I said, it feels like this stuff was more present in sci-fi than it was in the fantasy genre, and what's happening now is fantasy is playing catch up as a genre, and that's why you have 10 different sci-fi games, each with their own specific niche, but for fantasy games people just seem to instinctually try and shape their ideas to fit D&D's mechanics and core assumptions, rather than come up with their own mechanics that better suit their game and the story their game is trying to tell. About the only fantasy game I can think of that dodged this was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and that's mainly because it has that degree of specificity in its setting and core assumptions is powerful enough to override D&D's hegemony, but also condemns it to niche status.

Fantasy games are where science fiction games are two decades ago. Going through the motions, stuck in the same set of tropes that doesn't reflect the modern literature. It changed around the 2000s with games like Transhuman Space, Disapora, and Eclipse Phase which drew inspiration from more modern works I just think that unites D&D has a radical change, which it won't, such games will remain relatively minor.

Amazing though. I do love my less standard fantasy games. Should probably pick up Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine and one of these oppressed wizards games. Also start writing more varied have, I've got some ideas that I could expand on (including a post apocalypse fantasy game I've got a basic system for).


But even Lensmen or Foundation, or Starship Troopers or Dune or Ringworld or Neuromancer, they're all great books, but none of them are really the Lord of the Rings of science fiction. For whatever reason there is no equivalent. Nothing quite so obviously dominant in its influence on everything that came after it.

Star Wars is the equivalent for science fiction film, but it didn't affect sci-fi literature nearly as much.

Skylark.

I think inventing space opera counts.


I mean, it's not like LotR was really that massive, stories were insisted by the pulps just as much.

Calthropstu
2021-05-09, 10:30 AM
Skylark.

I think inventing space opera counts.


I mean, it's not like LotR was really that massive, stories were insisted by the pulps just as much.

LOTR had MASSIVE influence on every other fantasy author. Look at all the great fantasy authors since then. Even many that discarded elves/dwarves kept a tolienesque vibe. I haven't read much recent fantasy, but I read HUNDREDS way back. Even the Wheel of Time felt tolkienesque despite its lack of elves.
And the big ones that don't feel tolkienesque just kinda bore the hell out of me. I tried reading Game of Thrones and it was horrible. Not sure how people liked it.
So I get what the others are saying. I read lots of great Sci Fi as well. But nothing really stood out as being quintessential to the genre. Rather, there were a few that kinda spawned sub-genres. But nothing that affected the base genre itself.

Batcathat
2021-05-09, 10:53 AM
And the big ones that don't feel tolkienesque just kinda bore the hell out of me.

Wait, you're bored by the ones that aren't all from more or less the same mold? That's pretty much the opposite of my reaction to the Tolkien influence. Matter of individual taste, I suppose.

Other than that, I agree with everything. Sci-fi have no lack of influential authors, but even amongst the giants (Asimov, Clarke, etc.) I don't think anyone had the same amount of influence as Tolkien. Which is a good thing for the genre, I think.

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-09, 11:01 AM
LOTR had MASSIVE influence on every other fantasy author. Look at all the great fantasy authors since then. Even many that discarded elves/dwarves kept a tolienesque vibe. I haven't read much recent fantasy, but I read HUNDREDS way back. Even the Wheel of Time felt tolkienesque despite its lack of elves.
And the big ones that don't feel tolkienesque just kinda bore the hell out of me. I tried reading Game of Thrones and it was horrible. Not sure how people liked it.
So I get what the others are saying. I read lots of great Sci Fi as well. But nothing really stood out as being quintessential to the genre. Rather, there were a few that kinda spawned sub-genres. But nothing that affected the base genre itself.

Yeah, of course. Heroic Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, Wuxia, and all the other fantasy subgenres without influence from Tolkien don't exist? Yes, Tolkien head a massive influence on high fantasy, and partially inspired the tendency to have medieval European settings, but it's not like all of fantasy suddenly changed ship to follow his lead. I'm fairly certain the pulp fantasy subgenre didn't change one bit in response to him.

So yes, comparing him to Doc Smith is pretty accurate. Tolkien created the modern high fantasy with The Lord of the Rings. Smith created modern space opera with The Skylark of Space. And since Smith we've had many great science fiction authors, just off the top of my head at the very least the following: Heinlein, Asimov, Peter F. Hamilton, Joe Haldeman, Alastair Reynolds, Webber. Plus other authors writing in other genres of science fiction, just like how Tolkien didn't suddenly changed how all heroic fantasy or Wuxia was written.

Doc Smith does have the influence over science fiction that Tolkien had. But people don't want it because they don't want to admit just how massive a genre fantasy is.

Batcathat
2021-05-09, 11:13 AM
Yeah, of course. Heroic Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, Wuxia, and all the other fantasy subgenres without influence from Tolkien don't exist?

You're probably right about wuxia, but other than that I'd say Tolkien have absolutely had influence on all the genres you mention.

But sure, I can agree that there are subgenres of fantasy where his influence is non-existant or negligible but the subgenres where his massive influence is felt make up such a huge part of the genre as a whole (at least in the Western world, I'm not familiar enough with the fantasy genre in other cultural spheres to say for certain, but I imagine Tolkien's influence would be much smaller there) that no sci-fi author can compare.


Doc Smith does have the influence over science fiction that Tolkien had. But people don't want it because they don't want to admit just how massive a genre fantasy is.

Ah, yes. The old "people actually know I'm right, they just don't want to admit it" argument. Always charming.

Calthropstu
2021-05-09, 11:23 AM
Yeah, of course. Heroic Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, Wuxia, and all the other fantasy subgenres without influence from Tolkien don't exist? Yes, Tolkien head a massive influence on high fantasy, and partially inspired the tendency to have medieval European settings, but it's not like all of fantasy suddenly changed ship to follow his lead. I'm fairly certain the pulp fantasy subgenre didn't change one bit in response to him.

So yes, comparing him to Doc Smith is pretty accurate. Tolkien created the modern high fantasy with The Lord of the Rings. Smith created modern space opera with The Skylark of Space. And since Smith we've had many great science fiction authors, just off the top of my head at the very least the following: Heinlein, Asimov, Peter F. Hamilton, Joe Haldeman, Alastair Reynolds, Webber. Plus other authors writing in other genres of science fiction, just like how Tolkien didn't suddenly changed how all heroic fantasy or Wuxia was written.

Doc Smith does have the influence over science fiction that Tolkien had. But people don't want it because they don't want to admit just how massive a genre fantasy is.

I've read a bit of dark and urban fantasy. Stuff set in say the Shadowrun universe feels pretty tolkienesque. And the best dark fantasy I've read had some major tolkien elements as well.
I have honestly never heard of wuxia. And after taking a look at it via google, I realize I have in fact seen some of it in the form of chinese animation. Which is absolutely terrible. (Seriously, I watched a chinese animation stop a sword battle so the main character could show off his go skills. And the whole thing kept switching to some horrendously made characters who were supposedly gods betting on who would win what. Really dumb.) But preference aside, gee a genre from an entirely different culture not having our stuff in it? Yeah, kind of expected.

So even in your "other genres" Tolkien's influence can be felt.

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-09, 11:38 AM
Next you're all going to tell me that characters in science fiction don't build spaceships, go to other star systems, fight interstellar wars, wear powered armour, fight with guns emitting beams of energy, train telepaths as government operatives, travel to other universes, befriend other races and form shares political entities with them, or anything else? Oh, and people from a high gravity planet who are stronger because of it, he did that at least twice in separate series.

No, it's just Tolkien who's allowed to massively influence a genre, and then we have to define everything so that is true no matter what. Shadowrun's Dwarves, Orks, and Trolls were never Tolkienesque, although they were indirectly descended via D&D (which took more from pulp fantasy, but I'm supposed to pretend that the bloody obvious is untrue). Heck only a handful of Shadowrun Elves feel Tolkienesque. But honestly, the only works I've actually read that felt Tolkienesque were Tolkien, possibly A Song of Ice and Fire, and maybe some dark fantasy. The other Tolkien-inspired works I've read seen to have missed the point to steal the window dressing.

Smith being less well known to the general public doesn't mean he wasn't as influential. Again, he pretty much literally created Space Opera, that genre most of the big popular science fiction franchises are in (no Smith no Star Wars, no Star Trek, no Babylon 5, probably no Doctor Who or Blake's 7).

Batcathat
2021-05-09, 11:45 AM
The other Tolkien-inspired works I've read seen to have missed the point to steal the window dressing.

That we can agree on, at least. If everyone influenced by Tolkien would actually do what he did, rather than copy some of the specifics with barely a thought about why, I wouldn't mind it as much.

Calthropstu
2021-05-09, 11:57 AM
Next you're all going to tell me that characters in science fiction don't build spaceships, go to other star systems, fight interstellar wars, wear powered armour, fight with guns emitting beams of energy, train telepaths as government operatives, travel to other universes, befriend other races and form shares political entities with them, or anything else? Oh, and people from a high gravity planet who are stronger because of it, he did that at least twice in separate series.

No, it's just Tolkien who's allowed to massively influence a genre, and then we have to define everything so that is true no matter what. Shadowrun's Dwarves, Orks, and Trolls were never Tolkienesque, although they were indirectly descended via D&D (which took more from pulp fantasy, but I'm supposed to pretend that the bloody obvious is untrue). Heck only a handful of Shadowrun Elves feel Tolkienesque. But honestly, the only works I've actually read that felt Tolkienesque were Tolkien, possibly A Song of Ice and Fire, and maybe some dark fantasy. The other Tolkien-inspired works I've read seen to have missed the point to steal the window dressing.

Smith being less well known to the general public doesn't mean he wasn't as influential. Again, he pretty much literally created Space Opera, that genre most of the big popular science fiction franchises are in (no Smith no Star Wars, no Star Trek, no Babylon 5, probably no Doctor Who or Blake's 7).

First let me say this: Thank you for mentioning him. I may have to read some of this. But before today, I had never heard of him.
But judging from what I have read so far, while there were elements of skylark and lensman in other space operas, the permeation is not as deep.
Still, from the wikipedia article, it looks like he not only influenced authors, but also scientists and military officers as well. Apparently one of the ideas in his books led directly to the usage of tech in ww2. As a person very interested in that time period, I will definitrly be looking at his books.

Cluedrew
2021-05-09, 06:13 PM
On Tolkien: I think Tolkien's influence over fantasy is probably less than some would credit with for two reasons:
He didn't invent most of the stuff in his books. He drew on a massive body of existing works and a lot of what was drawn from his work was what he drew from existing works. Elves and dwarves already existed, as did dragons and special swords and cursed artifacts. He put his own spin on some of them yes, but that gets into the next point.
Fantasy has a lot of common iconography that is used across the sub-genres even though it can be used very differently. Probably because of all the mythology people have to draw on. But a Lord of the Rings elf isn't the same thing as a Wesnoth elf which is different from an Inheritance Cycle elf and all of those are different from a Dragon Prince elf.

In conclusion I wish people would stop acting like D&D is generic fantasy.

OK that was a jump, but things having the same imagery doesn't mean you can treat them the same.

Calthropstu
2021-05-09, 06:22 PM
On Tolkien: I think Tolkien's influence over fantasy is probably less than some would credit with for two reasons:
He didn't invent most of the stuff in his books. He drew on a massive body of existing works and a lot of what was drawn from his work was what he drew from existing works. Elves and dwarves already existed, as did dragons and special swords and cursed artifacts. He put his own spin on some of them yes, but that gets into the next point.
Fantasy has a lot of common iconography that is used across the sub-genres even though it can be used very differently. Probably because of all the mythology people have to draw on. But a Lord of the Rings elf isn't the same thing as a Wesnoth elf which is different from an Inheritance Cycle elf and all of those are different from a Dragon Prince elf.

In conclusion I wish people would stop acting like D&D is generic fantasy.

OK that was a jump, but things having the same imagery doesn't mean you can treat them the same.

To be fair, I think the whole "tolkienism" thing needs to branch off into its own thread because I fail to see its relevance to "which sci-fi game has the largest player base." Pretty sure "tolkien" is not the correct answer.

Cluedrew
2021-05-09, 08:34 PM
To Calthropstu: Is there anything about my post in particular that made you quote it or did it just happen to be the newest post in the thread? But I agree in a sense and am in fact tying this back to the main topic. Not the original "which is largest" (they answered that to the best of their abilities page one) but the follow up question of "Why isn't there a clear winner like in fantasy?" The first part comes down to historical happenstance. The second part is an evolving theory I was working on and since my last post.

Basically fantasy has a much larger set of common imagery to draw on. This common imagery hides the more meaningful differences between settings in a way that doesn't really happen in sci-fi. Its always a matter of degrees - and you could argue there is such a thing as a generic magic system - but I would argue that if you examine the stories told underneath that common imagery you will find significant differences. Urban fantasy is not just "Tolkienism in the modern day" (there may be a story that fits that description, but not the whole genre).

And this all gets back to the idea that D&D has a tendency to get over applied, attempting to cover many fantasy-variants that it is not suited for. Now this is probably more a result of D&D's popularity than a cause of it, but it probably creates a feedback loop in there.

Jason
2021-05-09, 10:08 PM
Doc Smith was hugely influential, but is he still read? Not like Tolkien is.
I've read through Lensmen twice (all 7 books), but I doubt many other people on this forum have read it even once.

Mechalich
2021-05-09, 11:36 PM
Doc Smith was hugely influential, but is he still read? Not like Tolkien is.
I've read through Lensmen twice (all 7 books), but I doubt many other people on this forum have read it even once.

Speculative fiction set in the 'future' - whether science fiction or space fantasy - tends to age fairly poorly compared to fantasy, which is in many ways the most timeless of all genres. After all, insofar as mythologically-framed stories qualify as fantasy, like The Odyssey, the include some of the oldest works known to humans. Beowulf - which is absolutely a tale of fantasy - is at least a thousand years old and is still widely read today. LotR takes very strong cues from the mythological and saga style of fantasy because that was Tolkien's expertise, which makes it particularly durable even compared to its various contemporaries due to a high level of universality. Compare the contemporaneous Chronicles of Narnia, which seems to be gradually fading as a cultural touchstone because it is a highly specific allegory and that connection has recently grown weaker in the English-speaking world.

Stories set in the future are vulnerable to technological change. In particular they are vulnerable to having plots that depend on the absence of some technology unknown to the author that eventually becomes extremely commonplace to the audience. Communications technologies such as cell phones and observation technologies such as surveillance cameras are too big ones. When this happens, a story becomes oddly anachronistic despite being set in the nominal future and that reduces its overall appeal.

Batcathat
2021-05-10, 01:29 AM
On Tolkien: I think Tolkien's influence over fantasy is probably less than some would credit with for two reasons:
He didn't invent most of the stuff in his books. He drew on a massive body of existing works and a lot of what was drawn from his work was what he drew from existing works. Elves and dwarves already existed, as did dragons and special swords and cursed artifacts. He put his own spin on some of them yes, but that gets into the next point.
Fantasy has a lot of common iconography that is used across the sub-genres even though it can be used very differently. Probably because of all the mythology people have to draw on. But a Lord of the Rings elf isn't the same thing as a Wesnoth elf which is different from an Inheritance Cycle elf and all of those are different from a Dragon Prince elf.


This is true, but Tolkien's spin on a lot of things became pretty much the interpretation of them. Elves are a very good example of that – Tolkien's elves are fairly different from the elves that came before while almost all elves that came after are either a carbon copy of Tolkien's elves or some sort of deliberate subversion of them. There are exceptions, of course, (the most common probably being the ones that draw from classical fairy tropes instead) but I'd say they're a pretty small minority.

Not to mention the fact that Tolkien's the reason elves are such a common sight in fantasy to begin with, which is a huge sign of his influence in itself.


To be fair, I think the whole "tolkienism" thing needs to branch off into its own thread because I fail to see its relevance to "which sci-fi game has the largest player base." Pretty sure "tolkien" is not the correct answer.

On one hand you're right, on the other hand the "most popular sci-fi game" discussion seemed to have pretty much run its course and it wouldn't exactly be the first time a thread went wildly off-topic. Still, if anyone wants to create a new thread for the Tolkien stuff, I'd be happy to continue the discussion there.

Jason
2021-05-10, 08:36 AM
I found a list that claims to be based on DriveThruRPG data for best selling titles of 2020 that came out in 2020.


Best selling sci-fi RPGs of 2020
(That were published in 2020)

1. Cyberpunk RED by R. Talsorian Games Inc.
2. Ultramodern5 REDUX (5th Edition) by Dias Ex Machina Games.
3. Secrets of the Crucible by Edge.
4. Dissident Whispers by Tuesday Knight Games.
5. Star Trek Adventures: Klingon Core Rulebook by Modiphius.
6. BLASTER: Volume 1 by BLASTER.
7. Star Trek Adventures: Gamma Quadrant Sourcebook by Modiphius.
8. Shadowrun: Firing Squad (Core Combat Rulebook) by Catalyst Game Labs.
9. Star Trek Adventures: Delta Quadrant Sourcebook by Modiphius.
10. BattleTech: Technical Readout: Golden Century by Catalyst Game Labs
Since Modiphius' Strar Trek has three titles in the top 10 it would seem to be hot right now.

Willie the Duck
2021-05-10, 08:53 AM
Doc Smith does have the influence over science fiction that Tolkien had. But people don't want it because they don't want to admit just how massive a genre fantasy is.

Next you're all going to tell me...

No, it's just Tolkien who's allowed
For future consideration, neither putting words in the mouths of others, self-declared persecution (only-Tolkien-allowed), nor secret-silent-majority agreement are great ways of convincing audiences larger than oneself.

Speculative fiction set in the 'future' - whether science fiction or space fantasy - tends to age fairly poorly compared to fantasy, which is in many ways the most timeless of all genres. After all, insofar as mythologically-framed stories qualify as fantasy, like The Odyssey, the include some of the oldest works known to humans. Beowulf - which is absolutely a tale of fantasy - is at least a thousand years old and is still widely read today. LotR takes very strong cues from the mythological and saga style of fantasy because that was Tolkien's expertise, which makes it particularly durable even compared to its various contemporaries due to a high level of universality. Compare the contemporaneous Chronicles of Narnia, which seems to be gradually fading as a cultural touchstone because it is a highly specific allegory and that connection has recently grown weaker in the English-speaking world.

Stories set in the future are vulnerable to technological change. In particular they are vulnerable to having plots that depend on the absence of some technology unknown to the author that eventually becomes extremely commonplace to the audience. Communications technologies such as cell phones and observation technologies such as surveillance cameras are too big ones. When this happens, a story becomes oddly anachronistic despite being set in the nominal future and that reduces its overall appeal.

Very true, however I think Jason is onto something. Beyond aging, even BitD, Tolkien stayed at the top of the pack in his field than Smith did. Within a year or two of most of Smith's contributions to his genre, there were other authors writing similar works that at least many fans of the genre considered superior (or at least more to their preference), to the point where many sci-fi readers could have read works influenced by him without ever reading his work well within the decade of his books' release. I'm not really sure that this implies about each respective author's influence, but I'd say in terms of eyes-on-page, I think it's more than just Smith's work having aged out with changes in technology that explains the difference. I do think more people should read Lensmen. They are fun books, regardless of any grand spot in history.

Jason
2021-05-10, 09:19 AM
Very true, however I think Jason is onto something. Beyond aging, even BitD, Tolkien stayed at the top of the pack in his field than Smith did. Within a year or two of most of Smith's contributions to his genre, there were other authors writing similar works that at least many fans of the genre considered superior (or at least more to their preference), to the point where many sci-fi readers could have read works influenced by him without ever reading his work well within the decade of his books' release. I'm not really sure that this implies about each respective author's influence, but I'd say in terms of eyes-on-page, I think it's more than just Smith's work having aged out with changes in technology that explains the difference. I do think more people should read Lensmen. They are fun books, regardless of any grand spot in history.
I think modern readers are as likely to feel that Smith's characters are one-dimensional and his view of male/female relationships is juvenile as they are to grumble over scientists using slide rules. There is fun stuff in them, but they are tales of their time in more than just the technology on display. I've heard the literally incorruptible Lensmen described as boy scouts by modern critics.
Tolkien's characters and themes have more depth to them.

Dune might be still popular today in part because it's technology is deliberately restricted by the cultural prejudices of the setting, but it also has timeless themes (religion and the messiah complex are not going away anytime soon) and morally complex characters.

Willie the Duck
2021-05-10, 09:41 AM
I think modern readers are as likely to feel that Smith's characters are one-dimensional and his view of male/female relationships is juvenile as they are to grumble over scientists using slide rules. There is fun stuff in them, but they are tales of their time in more than just the technology on display. I've heard the literally incorruptible Lensmen described as boy scouts by modern critics.
Tolkien's characters and themes have more depth to them.

Dune might be still popular today in part because it's technology is deliberately restricted by the cultural prejudices of the setting, but it also has timeless themes (religion and the messiah complex are not going away anytime soon) and morally complex characters.

Oh, absolutely. Lensmen is not unlike H Rider Haggard's Allan Quatermain stories -- an interesting window into a very foreign-feeling time with different values. Agree with regards to Dune.

Jason
2021-05-10, 11:11 AM
DriveThruRPG also has metal awards for best sellers on the site. Adamantium is the top tier, and there are only 116 Adamantium-level products.
I see the AD&D 1st edition books here, and the Rules Cyclopedia. SciFi games here include Cyberpunk Red, Alien, Stars Without Number, the Star Trek Adventures core rulebook, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0, Shadowrun 5th edition, and Shadowrun 4th edition.
Pazio doesn't put their stuff on this site, so Starfinder is absent. FFG Star Wars is also absent because there are no official .pdfs for sale from that line (licensing issue).
The Mongoose Traveller 2nd Ed core rulebook is a Mithral seller, which is the level just below Adamantium.

For generic systems that can do Sci Fi I also see Savage Worlds Adventure Edition, the Genesys core rulebook, and the FATE core book in the Adamantium sellers.

Anonymouswizard
2021-05-10, 11:55 AM
DriveThruRPG also has metal awards for best sellers on the site. Adamantium is the top tier, and there are only 116 Adamantium-level products.
I see the AD&D 1st edition books here, and the Rules Cyclopedia. SciFi games here include Cyberpunk Red, Alien, Stars Without Number, the Star Trek Adventures core rulebook, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0, Shadowrun 5th edition, and Shadowrun 4th edition.
Pazio doesn't put their stuff on this site, so Starfinder is absent. FFG Star Wars is also absent because there are no official .pdfs for sale from that line (licensing issue).
The Mongoose Traveller 2nd Ed core rulebook is a Mithral seller, which is the level just below Adamantium.

For generic systems that can do Sci Fi I also see Savage Worlds Adventure Edition, the Genesys core rulebook, and the FATE core book in the Adamantium sellers.

Both Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and, more importantly to this discussion, Warhammer 40,000: Wrath & Glory are also on the Adamantine list, which means that the 40k games are still in the running (if we're not classing them as fantasy). Although I'll note that the previous WH40kRP games are not in the list, which you can take as you like.

Which means that the most popular that we can get decent numbers for are Cyberpunk (both old and new), Stars Without Number, Star Trek Adventures, Shadowrun, and Warhammer 40k, with Starfinder and Star Wars likely also in that list. It still doesn't tell us the active player base, if I get a game off the ground soon it might be a few more players for Starfinder or Wrath & Glory, but it's also possible that I might end up running something more niche like Those Dark Places, Eldritch Skies, or possibly Unknown Armies.