Too many Yin-Yang Monks

[Man_Over_Game]

Anyone else tired of Light/Dark Duality monks?

I mean, we got Light Monks, Dark Monks, Death Monks, Life/Death Monks. Hell, we got Spirit Monks. Next, they'll be saying that the "Shadow" Monks are some stupid hybrid of Light and Darkness, making room for "Super Dark" Monks.

Frankly, I'm kinda tired of it.

Personally, I'm a fan of the concept of a "Beast" monk, maybe something that multiclasses well with Barbarian. Wrote up a homebrew (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?577152-Monk-Subclass-Way-of-the-Savage-Heart-(Animal-form-Monk)) concept long while back as something I would kinda hope to see, but it seems they used those kinds of mechanics on the Beast Barbarian, ironically.

What are some other kinds of Monks you'd like to see that don't deal with the whole Dark/Light thing going on?

[Scarytincan]

Not really, I kinda like most of em just fine. But I'll never say no to MORE monks to add more variety... XD

[HPisBS]

I don't quite agree with that characterization / prognosis, but I'll still play along.


Beast Monk could be cool. Plenty of irl martial arts claim to be inspired by animals, after all.

When WotC demonstrated that they were squeezing psionics into existing classes, I thought the Monk could make a decent biokineticist. Rune Knight already got the whole Enlargening schtick, but a Biokinetic Monk could still get some of that, some version of Alter Self and/or Stoneskin, and maybe something like a temporary +2 to all physical stats (ignoring stat maximums).

- A good ribbon might be (temporary?) Daredevil-like advantage on Insight and/or Perception due to sharper senses.

[verbatim]

I'm looking forward to "Dragon Monk". If I got to pick the next monk I would consider:



western styled monk that's a 1/3 cleric caster (controversial)
grapple monk (olympics/boxing themed?)
drow/spider themed monk (poison emphasis, maybe with a way around poison immunity like Death Cleric)
psionic monk that mainly exists to shoehorn bloodbending into 5e




The developers are kind of constrained by the existence of the 4 Elements Monk in that they can't change it too much and they can't make a new class with an identical theme (which I assume they want to because it's a very popular theme). I think it'd be kind of cool to circumnavigate the problem by having a monk type for each (popular) element that gets access to modified versions of existing spells.

I.E.: Ice Monk gets Ice Knife (damage is tied to your monk die) prof bonus # of times then 2 ki per use after that.

[Unoriginal]

Anyone else tired of Light/Dark Duality monks?

I mean, we got Light Monks, Dark Monks, Death Monks, Life/Death Monks. Hell, we got Spirit Monks. Next, they'll be saying that the "Shadow" Monks are some stupid hybrid of Light and Darkness, making room for "Super Dark" Monks.

Frankly, I'm kinda tired of it.

Personally, I'm a fan of the concept of a "Beast" monk, maybe something that multiclasses well with Barbarian. Wrote up a homebrew (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?577152-Monk-Subclass-Way-of-the-Savage-Heart-(Animal-form-Monk)) concept long while back as something I would kinda hope to see, but it seems they used those kinds of mechanics on the Beast Barbarian, ironically.

What are some other kinds of Monks you'd like to see that don't deal with the whole Dark/Light thing going on?

You're literally the only person I've ever seen argue that 5e Monks had a Light/Darkness duality.

I don't think it's actually a thing. There's the Shadow Monk, and there's the Sun Soul Monk. That's it, it's two subclasses with different themes, it's not duality. No one would argue the Warlock class is about duality because there's a Fiend one and a Celestial one.

Also I realize it's not likely not intentional, Man_Over_Game, but this is not what the concept of the Yin Yang is about, and it's borderline insulting to the philosophy it comes from. 5e Monks have literally nothing to do with the Yin Yang.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I don't think this is an actual problem. The "light" monk is more of a Dragon Ball Z Monk, and the Dark monk is more of a ninja, I guess they sort of have to do with light/dark but...almost incidentally? I don't know.

And beyond that is a bit of a stretch. You could consider Mercy monks both light/dark, but their flavor is more about balancing harm with healing.

Anyway, if you really want some more monk variety: I personally would like some kind of gun-kata Monk that specializes in using firearms, but we'll likely never see that given the crazy lengths they go to stress that Firearms are super ultra optional. A brawling strength-focused subclass would be nice too, but less necessary now that we have the unarmed fighting style.

[Aylowan]

The developers are kind of constrained by the existence of the 4 Elements Monk in that they can't change it too much and they can't make a new class with an identical theme (which I assume they want to because it's a very popular theme). I think it'd be kind of cool to circumnavigate the problem by having a monk type for each (popular) element that gets access to modified versions of existing spells.

I.E.: Ice Monk gets Ice Knife (damage is tied to your monk die) prof bonus # of times then 2 ki per use after that.

You'd think they would be constrained, and perhaps that's been their position in the past. On the other hand, the UA "The Undead" Warlock patron seems to indicate the current team might be more willing to come out with a similar version of an older subclass with poor feedback. Sooo maybe?

I agree with you, though, monks for individual elements would be fun. You can do a lot thematically with just a single element -- look at Sorcerer subclasses, for example.

[Man_Over_Game]

You're literally the only person I've ever seen argue that 5e Monks had a Light/Darkness duality.

I don't think it's actually a thing. There's the Shadow Monk, and there's the Sun Soul Monk. That's it, it's two subclasses with different themes, it's not duality. No one would argue the Warlock class is about duality because there's a Fiend one and a Celestial one.

Also I realize it's not likely not intentional, Man_Over_Game, but this is not what the concept of the Yin Yang is about, and it's borderline insulting to the philosophy it comes from. 5e Monks have literally nothing to do with the Yin Yang.

I didn't mean necessarily exactly like Yin Yang, just the shear number of duality concepts. No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale.

It'd be like if every Warlock patron was something like the Fathomless or The Great Old One. A Warlock should be able to be more than some Eldritch horror's servant. I'm of the opinion that Monks should have more than just being Light/Dark related or Jackie Chan.

Heck, the Mercy Monk and the Long Death Monk even have basically the same Necrotic Touch attack, except one is a capstone and the other is a level 3 feature. They even make themselves tankier through life magic.

[Protolisk]

I didn't mean necessarily exactly like Yin Yang, just the shear number of duality concepts. No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale.

It'd be like if every Warlock patron was something like the Fathomless or The Great Old One. A Warlock should be able to be more than some Eldritch horror's servant. I'm of the opinion that Monks should have more than just being Light/Dark related or Jackie Chan.

Heck, the Mercy Monk and the Long Death Monk even have basically the same Necrotic Touch attack, except one is a capstone and the other is a level 3 feature. They even make themselves tankier.


Uh, Clerics? Light, Twilight? Life, Death/Grave? War, Peace? Forge, Nature?

Anyway, its not like that's all monks are anyway. We still have Open Hand, Drunken Master, and Kensei (though I guess you mean these are "Jackie Chan"), which are all outside the realm of light/dark/life/death, along with Dragon and 4 elements. And this is assuming you meant "spirit" monk as the Astral one, which is a different thing in 5e but could easily be flavored as a more spiritual thing.

[PhantomSoul]

What are some other kinds of Monks you'd like to see that don't deal with the whole Dark/Light thing going on?

1. Revamp the elemental monk altogether. (Which, for WOTC, means just making a new one and ignoring people noticing.) Basically, my partial draft is to give monks the choice to specialise or not in elements (plus gives "stances" for elements, to help with ki hungriness).
2. A druid-on-monk counterpart to the eldritch knight's wizard-on-fighter. A nature monk is such a natural concept (haha).
3. A cleric-on-monk counterpart to #2's druid-on-monk. Again, to get a bit of that more religious-monastic feel as an option you can lean into solo, especially given how typically it seems to be assumed that the monk will be a spell-like/martial/spell-absent cleric thematically.
4. #2 (and maybe #3) in terms of fluff/feel, but with non-spellcasting features as the focus.
5. A monk subclass that doesn't just want to spend all their ki on stunning strike.

[Rukelnikov]

western styled monk that's a 1/3 cleric caster (controversial)


I'm curious, why would that be controversial?

[Tvtyrant]

We should go all in on Ying-Yang Monks and base them off the Veritas manwha! Electric Tiger Monk who disrupts casting, Fire Dragon Monk who does wall effects, etc.

[Protolisk]

I'm curious, why would that be controversial?

To me, it'd be that they have one system full of resources ( ki), and then they'd get an entire spellcasting system with even more resources (spell slots).

On one hand, it means that you have more ki to spend on things like step of the wind, since your subclass features are spell slot based and thus don't interfere.

On the other, its way more likely that your ki is all going towards stunning strike since there's less interesting things to spend em on.

The actual spells themselves are immaterial to me, its moreso the direct focus on ki itself.

(Of course ki might amplify the spells slots, but then it just becomes the management of so many resources overall.)

[Man_Over_Game]

Uh, Clerics? Light, Twilight? Life, Death/Grave? War, Peace? Forge, Nature?

I guess those concepts seem more acceptable to me with Clerics since there is inherently a religious/philosophical requirement for Clerics. 5e Monks aren't related to the religious type of Monk, so it seems a bit out-of-place and, at this point, overdone.

I could really get behind Monk styles that are based on specific animals or forces of nature. It'd give more identity to the Monk class in a way that's difficult for other classes to duplicate.

Thinking about it, it'd be pretty dang cool if they had a Warlock-style progression, where you pick both an Element and a Beast at different levels, to create new "styles" of martial arts and ways to "Monk". Eh, wishful thinking.

[False God]

I'd like it if each of the 4 elements monks got their own subclass with more refined abilities that really gave their element their feel, but then I am a huge Avatar nerd. (if they already did this officially, ie: published, not just UA, please point me to it).

And we've got the default "pure kung fu" monk, which I think is fine.

Conceptually what you want is a raging brawler, which is fine, might be able to make it work in a Dragonball-Z way, ie you "rage" to go super-sayian or whatever. But it shouldn't be just an excuse to get Monk bennies to MC into barbarian, because IMO, I feel like Monk and Barbarian are on kinda opposite ends of the spectrum in a lot of ways.

[Protolisk]

Conceptually what you want is a raging brawler, which is fine, might be able to make it work in a Dragonball-Z way, ie you "rage" to go super-sayian or whatever. But it shouldn't be just an excuse to get Monk bennies to MC into barbarian, because IMO, I feel like Monk and Barbarian are on kinda opposite ends of the spectrum in a lot of ways.

Well, looking at the Astral Monk, there is some way to make this a more ingrained self buffing form of "rage". Spend X ki to get more bestial alterations.

There'd be a bit of overlap with Barbarian overall, conceptually, with being more physical, and having Totem and Beast subclasses to cover that niche. Then again, nothing stopped Sorcerers and Warlocks from sharing the "celestial/divine" niche and "shadowy" niches at the same time. In the same book.

[HPisBS]

To me, it'd be that they have one system full of resources ( ki), and then they'd get an entire spellcasting system with even more resources (spell slots).

On one hand, it means that you have more ki to spend on things like step of the wind, since your subclass features are spell slot based and thus don't interfere.

On the other, its way more likely that your ki is all going towards stunning strike since there's less interesting things to spend em on.

The actual spells themselves are immaterial to me, its moreso the direct focus on ki itself.

(Of course ki might amplify the spells slots, but then it just becomes the management of so many resources overall.)

The problem with the EleMonk wasn't that it used ki for spells, but that using ki for spells was all that it did. My 4E fix (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615777-4-Elements-Monk-Revamped) addressed that by kinda doing this:


Thinking about it, it'd be pretty dang cool if they had a Warlock-style progression, where you pick both an Element and a Beast at different levels, to create new "styles" of martial arts and ways to "Monk". Eh, wishful thinking.

- Kinda.

Edit: Really, it's more like this:


I'd like it if each of the 4 elements monks got their own subclass with more refined abilities that really gave their element their feel, but then I am a huge Avatar nerd. (if they already did this officially, ie: published, not just UA, please point me to it).


Each elemental discipline would also count towards mastery of that particular element, giving minor perks like a better Dash and jump with Air, or a Cause Fear type effect with Fire. You could get some of everything by diversifying the elements of your disciplines, or specialize in just one to ultimately get an Investiture spell.

The important part is that they're like Shadow Step in that the non-Investiture features don't cost ki, but aren't super powerful. Lacking those kinds of actual features is what brought 4E down, imo.


Edit edit:
False God, are you a SG-1 fan, by any chance?

[Unoriginal]

I didn't mean necessarily exactly like Yin Yang, just the shear number of duality concepts.

0 is a sheer number, yes.



No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale.

There is one subclass designed around shadow stuff. There's plenty of other classes with that many. And there is one kind-of-light-related subclass which is in fact mostly about shooting people with energy beams.


I'm of the opinion that Monks should have more than just being Light/Dark related

They are not.


or Jackie Chan.

I assume you that by this you mean "martial artist with a gimmick".


If your point is "All Monks feel the same", I obviously can't tell you how to feel. I can even agree that the Monk's design has plenty of rooms for different ideas the writers haven't touched so far.

But doubling down about blatantly false information like "Monks have a Light/Dark duality" is frankly an insult to everyone's ability to read.

There's no Yin Yang thing about the Monk, there is no Light/Dark duality. Yes several Monk subclasses have necrotic-damage attacks and ways to heal, but it's because the Monk is based around the concept of manipulating life energy to achieve fantastical stuff.

[Devils_Advocate]

I guess those concepts seem more acceptable to me with Clerics since there is inherently a religious/philosophical requirement for Clerics. 5e Monks aren't related to the religious type of Monk, so it seems a bit out-of-place and, at this point, overdone.
Um... You're wrong. The default fluff of both Clerics and Monks is religious/philosophical/spiritual. In Monks' case it talks about how Monks live in cloisters and seek spiritual enlightenment and whatnot. That's why they can use ki to do magic. They're not just unarmored martial artists.

[Unoriginal]

Um... You're wrong. The default fluff of both Clerics and Monks is religious/philosophical/spiritual. In Monks' case it talks about how Monks live in cloisters and seek spiritual enlightenment and whatnot. That's why they can use ki to do magic. They're not just unarmored martial artists.

Yeah, and the powers they get through leveling are how they progress toward enlightenment.

[verbatim]

To me, it'd be that they have one system full of resources ( ki), and then they'd get an entire spellcasting system with even more resources (spell slots).

On one hand, it means that you have more ki to spend on things like step of the wind, since your subclass features are spell slot based and thus don't interfere.

It should probably be worth noting that most full spellcasters have a second resource that they spend on subclass features (Metamagic/Channel Divinity/Wildshape, etc), and that none of the the existing 1/3 caster subclasses have to spend a main class resource on spellcasting.

One of the reasons I think monks come with the notion that they don't have enough resources compared to other classes is that they're the only class with one set of resources available to the base class that also expends that set of resources as the sole means of accessing some of their subclass features.

[Protolisk]

It should probably be worth noting that most full spellcasters have a second resource that they spend on subclass features (Metamagic/Channel Divinity/Wildshape, etc), and that none of the the existing 1/3 caster subclasses have to spend a main class resource on spellcasting.

One of the reasons I think monks come with the notion that they don't have enough resources compared to other classes is that they're the only class with one set of resources available to the base class that also expends that set of resources as the sole means of accessing some of their subclass features.

The big difference being however is that, say, for Fighters, they only have a few resources used in very limited ways, i.e. one way per resource: Second Wind, Action Surge, and Indomitable. They are pretty neat and tidy as to what they are capable of, and for most its not so much keeping track of exact costs as it is "did I use this yet or not". This is about the same as most other features like Channel Divinites or Wild Shapes. Rogues, the only other 1/3 caster, doesn't really have any resources to talk of.

Ki is a lot more like Sorcery Points, I will admit, but Sorc points specifically need spells to work already, either by affecting how spell work s or fueling more spells (by changing them into spell slots). Ki are recharged much faster, and using them to alter spells is something I think would be interesting, but it could be seen as stepping on the toes of sorcerers because that's mostly the Sorcerer's schtick. It would need to be very specifically balanced with that in mind.

Now, I didn't say it was a bad idea, but I can see a source of controversy. I've seen some attempts at homebrewing 4 elements, and have considered trying it myself, and that is one idea I have been toying with. I am not sure what should be the right way to approach it.

[verbatim]

I am not sure what should be the right way to approach it.

Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster limit what schools of magic you can pick your wizard spells from. That would be a good way to ensure the monk can't grab Guiding Bolt + Healing Word + Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians back to back to back.

[stoutstien]

I don't necessarily agree on the light/dark angle but I do think monks are a tad narrow in thematic scope for 5e.

[KorvinStarmast]

You're literally the only person I've ever seen argue that 5e Monks had a Light/Darkness duality.
Aye, my initial take as well.

No one would argue the Warlock class is about duality because there's a Fiend one and a Celestial one.
Or the Sorcerer's Divine Soul and the Shadow Magic ...

5e Monks have literally nothing to do with the Yin Yang. Also my take; once one reads a bit about that philosophical approach, one learns that the oversimplification of it does it a disservice1. :smallcool:

No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale. Clerics. Life/Death. LIght/Twilight. Paladins. (Redemption/Conquest, Devotion/Oathbreaker).

Heck, the Mercy Monk and the Long Death Monk even have basically the same Necrotic Touch attack, except one is a capstone and the other is a level 3 feature. They even make themselves tankier through life magic. I think that was a case of "huh, Long Death not so popular, let's tweak it a bit and call it something else ..."


1. Revamp the elemental monk altogether.
Yes.

5. A monk subclass that doesn't just want to spend all their ki on stunning strike. Heretic! :smallbiggrin:


There is one subclass designed around shadow stuff. There's plenty of other classes with that many. And there is one kind-of-light-related subclass which is in fact mostly about shooting people with energy beams.
And then closing to stun them. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, and the powers they get through leveling are how they progress toward enlightenment. Nothing says Enlightenment to me like Quivering Palm. :smallbiggrin: (I am a sucker for the Sun Soul monk, however, because I have a life long aversion to the undead. All of those levels lost to wights and wraiths in OD&D and AD&D ... scarred, I am, scarred).

I do think monks are a tad narrow in thematic scope for 5e. If even modes magical items are allowed, like gaunts of ogre strength and a Ring of Jumping, you can have a Boing Boing monk who jumps all over the place. :smallbiggrin:

1 FWIW, the distant relationship to a D&D monk to the overall philosophical construct Unoriginal mention is the clumsy borrowing of Ki (a variation on qi - the material energy, which this universe has created itself out of) but that's a bit of a reach. So too is the one-corn-tortilla-thick philosophical constructs that make up alignment or the DMG's coverage of political systems and style. No depth; the name of a thing and not the thing itself. (To do a reverse Hagel on it ...)

[Quietus]

I don't think this is an actual problem. The "light" monk is more of a Dragon Ball Z Monk, and the Dark monk is more of a ninja, I guess they sort of have to do with light/dark but...almost incidentally? I don't know.

And beyond that is a bit of a stretch. You could consider Mercy monks both light/dark, but their flavor is more about balancing harm with healing.

Anyway, if you really want some more monk variety: I personally would like some kind of gun-kata Monk that specializes in using firearms, but we'll likely never see that given the crazy lengths they go to stress that Firearms are super ultra optional. A brawling strength-focused subclass would be nice too, but less necessary now that we have the unarmed fighting style.

You can make a pretty solid gun kata monk out of Kensei, with the Tasha's bumps; use your ranged weapon of choice (longbow, for me), make your two attacks, and spend a point of ki either to bump your attack rolls so that something hits, or if both your attacks hit, spend that ki to do an extra die of damage. This opens up a bonus action attack with that same weapon. It's fully online by level 6, and has lots of room for personalization after that.

[Man_Over_Game]

General consensus seems to be: "MOG, you're an idiot and this opinion is stupid".

Understood, thanks for the clarification.

No sarcasm, really, it helps to know how far off my thoughts are from the public opinion, so I don't push those biases onto my players.

[quinron]

General consensus seems to be: "MOG, you're an idiot and this opinion is stupid".

Understood, thanks for the clarification.

No sarcasm, really, it helps to know how far off my thoughts are from the public opinion, so I don't push those biases onto my players.

I mean, it's definitely there with the two SCAG monks; that may have just colored your opinions of the ones that came out afterward.

[RogueJK]

Or the Sorcerer's Divine Soul and the Shadow Magic ...

Keep in mind, Divine Soul doesn't necessarily automatically mean "Good/Light". Your divine bloodline can be tied back to a neutral or evil deity, or you could have been conceived during a ritual of an apocalyptic cult, or whatever.

The protagonist from the Baldur's Gate series is a prime example of what could have been a Divine Soul Sorcerer whose spark is from the God of Murder.

[Christian]

Everyone is overlooking the Johnnie Walker Dark monks.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/resizer/V7-q18Bku6QZ7G_7SmwBfkMdKLs=/800x442/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/7AH3WAFCAZCNTE3ARYVWNRULAY.jpg

[Imbalance]

Is it really that monks are too Jackie Chan? Or is it that Jackie Chan is literally every archetype?

[Man_Over_Game]

Is it really that monks are too Jackie Chan? Or is it that Jackie Chan is literally every archetype?

For me, that we have several styles of "Physical" monks that use similar-enough concepts and mechanics to not stand out all that much.

For example, Open Hand focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Drunken Master focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Kensei focuses on using weapons, and occasionally uses Flurry of Blows.

Open Hand avoids counter attacks by pushing people. Drunken Master avoids counter attacks by dodging people. Kensei avoids counter attacks by using ranged weapons (when a Monk could already throw weapons).

Mechanically, those Monks all use the same core chassis and end up with similar results. Even something like a ranged Kensei mostly gets added range (which I think isn't necessary, considering throwing weapons and the increased speed are enough to harass at a similar level) and some damage.

A part of that might be just a Monk's design, where they don't need to be modified by the subclass all that much (compared to something like Clerics or Fighters), except we have options like the Shadow Monk where even that doesn't always seem to be true.

It seems odd, like WotC is adding mechanics that are redundant with existing Monk features, instead of diversifying the Monk playstyle. For instance, all three of those "martial arts" subclasses have mechanics that reduce the need for Patient Defense (Defense as a Bonus Action) or Step of the Wind (extra mobility or Disengage), yet you already want to use Flurry of Blows as often as possible since damage isn't something you can waste.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like to see less "generic" martial arts changes from the Monk subclasses and, separately, fewer things related to life/death.

Four Elements is perfect....it just also happens to suck.

[Protolisk]

For me, that we have several styles of "Physical" monks that use similar-enough concepts and mechanics to not stand out all that much.

For example, Open Hand focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Drunken Master focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Kensei focuses on using weapons, and occasionally uses Flurry of Blows.

Open Hand avoids counter attacks by pushing people. Drunken Master avoids counter attacks by dodging people. Kensei avoids counter attacks by using ranged weapons (when a Monk could already throw weapons).

Mechanically, those Monks all use the same core chassis and end up with similar results. Even something like a ranged Kensei mostly gets added range (which I think isn't necessary, considering throwing weapons and the increased speed are enough to harass at a similar level) and some damage.

A part of that might be just a Monk's design, where they don't need to be modified by the subclass all that much (compared to something like Clerics or Fighters), except we have options like the Shadow Monk where even that doesn't always seem to be true.

It seems odd, like WotC is adding mechanics that are redundant with existing Monk features, instead of diversifying the Monk playstyle. For instance, all three of those "martial arts" subclasses have mechanics that reduce the need for Patient Defense (Defense as a Bonus Action) or Step of the Wind (extra mobility or Disengage), yet you already want to use Flurry of Blows as often as possible since damage isn't something you can waste.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like to see less "generic" martial arts changes from the Monk subclasses and, separately, fewer things related to life/death.

Four Elements is perfect....it just also happens to suck.

While I understand the base idea that the "physical" monk subclasses can be viewed as similar, saying that's all they do are the same is really reductive. Its also basically just looking at level 3 for Open Hand versus Drunken Monk.

Both barely need a weapon, while Kensei actually does. Sure, they could use one, but using a weapon usually just boosts damage by a single die size, or 1 damage per round, and that's it (unless you get a longsword or something through race). So, yeah, you could use a weapon, but there's barely any reason to. Beyond that, at level 5, it all equals out, so if you don't have a magical weapon then unarmed strikes are literally just as good. They don't need weapons at all.

And while yes, they both can disengage, Open Hand is much more single target based because they need to land first, and if they do, they might rather knock them prone rather than just escape, making future hits easier to land. More control for Open Hand. They also don't need to push to disengage anyway, but its still on targets they hit. Drunken's don't, they get a free disengage, making them have an easier time with multiple targets. More mobility, for extra targets.

This furthers in level 6, where Drunken get better mobility from the prone, and redirecting attacks when ganged up on. So more focus on multiple target. Open Hand doesn't get this, its more defensive with a free heal.

Level 11 is defensive for both, but level 17 confirms their general purpose. Drunken gets extra attacks against multiple targets every Flurry, which means again they want more enemies and mobility to reach them all. Open Hand get the meme Quivering Palm, which is solely single target and one of the few save-or-die effects.

So sure, they both focus on Flurry of Blows... because they make Flurry of Blows into their preferred form of defense: mobility or control. They take what is common between monks, and then modify them differently. Their overall role is different, even if they look similar at first. One is more about mobility and multiple targets, the other is more about single target control. Which should be what a subclass is about, changing the generic archetype and specialize.

Kensei is mostly just damage though, yeah.

[HPisBS]

...
I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like to see less "generic" martial arts changes from the Monk subclasses and, separately, fewer things related to life/death.

Four Elements is perfect....it just also happens to suck.

You may get what you want if they come out with a Dragon Monk that mirrors the Dragon Sorc (pick one element at lvl 3 and go from there).

Sun Soul could've been great, as the go-to for a ranged / energy blast attacker, but again, WotC flubbed the execution.


My personal ruling as a dm for sun soul monks is two-fold.
One: allow them the free bonus action attack with sunbolt.
Two: At level 6 they also gain the ability to spend one ki to attempt to blind an enemy they hit with sunbolt. Not as strong as stun but it works at range and gives them a bit of control.


Honestly, aside from adding other flavors of psionics like biokinesis, I just don't see many other interesting directions to take the spiritual martial artist class that haven't already been done in some form or another.

They could do a more beastial Monk, or one with a sort of rage mechanic. That would be new for Monks, but it would step on the Barb's toes pretty hard. Plus, they already tried a kind of rage mechanic with Tranquility, and it wasn't great. (Though I did love the Non-Aggression theme that subclass had. I really wish they'd kept and refined that instead of the weirder Mercy that we wound up with.)

[Man_Over_Game]

The problem with them focusing on Flurry of Blows is that the default strategy for most monks is to spend resources on Flurry of Blows in the first place.

You need a reason to use Step of the Wind. You need a reason to use Patient Defense. You don't need a reason to use Flurry of Blows. Pulling more of a reason to use Flurry of Blows from the other two BA options means you're seeing the same Monk gameplay regardless of what kind of Monk is at the table. It makes them seem generic and replaceable instead of unique.

Given, it's not quite as bad as Samurai vs. Champion, but that's kind of what you'd expect from the Fighter who has 25% of his levels devoted to adding more attacks to the Attack Action. It's not what you'd expect from the class that has 4 different ways to spend his BA at level 2.

[HPisBS]

...
You need a reason to use Step of the Wind. You need a reason to use Patient Defense. You don't need a reason to use Flurry of Blows. Pulling more of a reason to use Flurry of Blows... makes them seem generic and replaceable instead of unique.
...

I fully agree, with 2/3 of that. Which is why I re-built the EleMonk the way that I did (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615777-4-Elements-Monk-Revamped).

For example, I wrote it so that if you know an Air discipline, then your Step of the Wind lets you Dash at double speed. If you know Water disciplines, then your Disengage also makes a foggy or icy area (heavy obscurement or difficult terrain). If you know a couple of Earth disciplines, then your Dodge can also boost your AC for a minute by spending extra ki.

[Protolisk]

The problem with them focusing on Flurry of Blows is that the default strategy for most monks is to spend resources on Flurry of Blows in the first place.

You need a reason to use Step of the Wind. You need a reason to use Patient Defense. You don't need a reason to use Flurry of Blows. Pulling more of a reason to use Flurry of Blows from the other two BA options means you're seeing the same Monk gameplay regardless of what kind of Monk is at the table. It makes them seem generic and replaceable instead of unique.

Given, it's not quite as bad as Samurai vs. Champion, but that's kind of what you'd expect from the Fighter who has 25% of his levels devoted to adding more attacks to the Attack Action. It's not what you'd expect from the class that has 4 different ways to spend his BA at level 2.

Ah, okay, so the dislike is that they don't use as much of the other options. I'll give you that, they definitely do both focus Flurry of Blows.

With that in mind, have you looked at the Ascendant Dragon UA? Flurry definitely takes a back seat (though it is still an option), and they even have an upgrade to their Step of the Wind. They also have another option for bonus actions later on, for less reliance of Flurry as the levels go on.

[strangebloke]

The problem is very simply that their mechanics are far more limiting than most of their peers. They can't wear armor, can't use martial weapons (usually) and can't use shields, or else they lose a bunch of class features. It's got nothing to do with the thematics of the subclasses that already exist, its just that when your class is so forcefully centralized around "punching" and "moving fast" and "not wearing armor" there's only so much you can do.

If we really needed to get away from the idea that monks are religious mystics, then I'd probably make something like the following:

Way of the Paragon: The ideal of the perfect physical specimen. Can be good at everything. Every day they pick 1 skill and get expertise in it. They can spend a ki point and make any one of their stats into a 16 for a single turn. Something like that.

[Dork_Forge]

For me, that we have several styles of "Physical" monks that use similar-enough concepts and mechanics to not stand out all that much.

For example, Open Hand focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Drunken Master focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Kensei focuses on using weapons, and occasionally uses Flurry of Blows.

This isn't really how they play out though, Open Hand and Drunken Master have no built in incentives to use weapons, the only reason to use them is to get 1-2 more average damage from the die unless you have magic Monk compatible weapons. Kensei is literally built around being a weapon using Monk, vastly different.

Open Hand and Drunken Monk (at 3rd level for both, you didn't really look beyond that) have features that enhance Flurry, this isn't a bad thing, it's one of the three main Monk subclass templates. How they do that though is very different, with Open Hand offering control and Drunken Master making a fantastic skirmisher. Again, very different playstyles (unless for some reason you want the reaction denial from OH).


Open Hand avoids counter attacks by pushing people. Drunken Master avoids counter attacks by dodging people. Kensei avoids counter attacks by using ranged weapons (when a Monk could already throw weapons).

This is... a certain view. Drunken Master gets free disengage, Open Hand can use its control to avoid OA, Kensei can use ranged weapons. The picture of the Kensei is especially peculiar to me, the difference between a normal Monk trying to do ranged and a Kensei is huge, and it ignores the other way the Kensei avoids counter attacks, by bumping their AC +2 at will.


Mechanically, those Monks all use the same core chassis and end up with similar results. Even something like a ranged Kensei mostly gets added range (which I think isn't necessary, considering throwing weapons and the increased speed are enough to harass at a similar level) and some damage.

They get a lot more damage than the standard Monk at range, as well as enhanced range, magical attacks, improved accuracy...


A part of that might be just a Monk's design, where they don't need to be modified by the subclass all that much (compared to something like Clerics or Fighters), except we have options like the Shadow Monk where even that doesn't always seem to be true.

I see Monk subclasses falling into three templates, these templates are most prevalent at 3rd level:

-Grants at-will abilities (Sun Soul, Long Death, Kensei)

-Enhances Flurry (Open Hand, Drunken Master, Mercy)

-Gives you other options to spend your Ki on (Shadow, 4E)

The difference in play between subclasses can vary a great deal, however depending on the player, they could play similarly, even though they would achieve similar results through different methods.


It seems odd, like WotC is adding mechanics that are redundant with existing Monk features, instead of diversifying the Monk playstyle. For instance, all three of those "martial arts" subclasses have mechanics that reduce the need for Patient Defense (Defense as a Bonus Action) or Step of the Wind (extra mobility or Disengage), yet you already want to use Flurry of Blows as often as possible since damage isn't something you can waste.

Patient Defense is not disengage, no subclass abilities I can think of really step on PDs toes unless you're looking at the AC bump of the Kensei. Moving away from enemies isn't the same thing.

Step of the Wind is also not particularly encroached upon, the Drunken Master gives you 10ft, Step of the Wind doubles your movement and buffs your jumping. That said just because the core chassis gives you something doesn't mean that a subclass can't work with the same concept, either enhancing it or in a different manner.

You don't necessarily want to use Flurry as much as possible either, Ki is pretty limited and you might prefer to use those Ki points for Stun attempts or Tasha Optional abilities if you don't have any subclass ones.


I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like to see less "generic" martial arts changes from the Monk subclasses and, separately, fewer things related to life/death.

Four Elements is perfect....it just also happens to suck.


A Monk is at it's core, a Martial Artist, so it only makes sense that a decent number of subclasses aim to bring more specialised Martial Arts into the class. That said: Shadow, Sun Soul, Astral Self and Four Elements all have nothing to do with Life/Death and all certainly aren't just different flavour of martial arts. Maybe your definitions of those things are a lot more broad them mine, but there seems to be a pretty good spread in the game already across the categories.




The problem with them focusing on Flurry of Blows is that the default strategy for most monks is to spend resources on Flurry of Blows in the first place.

You need a reason to use Step of the Wind. You need a reason to use Patient Defense. You don't need a reason to use Flurry of Blows. Pulling more of a reason to use Flurry of Blows from the other two BA options means you're seeing the same Monk gameplay regardless of what kind of Monk is at the table. It makes them seem generic and replaceable instead of unique.

Given, it's not quite as bad as Samurai vs. Champion, but that's kind of what you'd expect from the Fighter who has 25% of his levels devoted to adding more attacks to the Attack Action. It's not what you'd expect from the class that has 4 different ways to spend his BA at level 2.

I mean, the reason to use Flurry of Blows is to increase your already respectable damage. Just like the reason to use Patient Defense is to try and avoid getting smacked in the face and Step of the Wind is to increase mobility. Just because a lot of players choose to pick damage over the other options doesn't mean they aren't valid or as useable. The weakest in combat is probably Step of the Wind, but it can also be used out of combat to help you overcome environmental hazards.

I think the problem here is a very narrow focus, I'm not sure if that's because you're seeing things that support a preconception or simply you don't value the differences between the options, but your posts seem to be overly reductionist of the subclasses to make them seem more similar than they actually are.

[quinron]

The problem is very simply that their mechanics are far more limiting than most of their peers. They can't wear armor, can't use martial weapons (usually) and can't use shields, or else they lose a bunch of class features. It's got nothing to do with the thematics of the subclasses that already exist, its just that when your class is so forcefully centralized around "punching" and "moving fast" and "not wearing armor" there's only so much you can do.

If we really needed to get away from the idea that monks are religious mystics, then I'd probably make something like the following:

Way of the Paragon: The ideal of the perfect physical specimen. Can be good at everything. Every day they pick 1 skill and get expertise in it. They can spend a ki point and make any one of their stats into a 16 for a single turn. Something like that.

When there's no little to no path for improving or expanding the items you use, you have to either improve the actions you can take without items or give more options for those actions. Unfortunately, it seems that for the monk they've gone pretty much entirely with the latter - too many of their features take a bonus action to use. This isn't to say that the monk suffers in action economy - they certainly make good use of those bonus actions, especially with Flurry - but it does mean that the action economy prevents most builds from being able to make full use of their feature list if they want to meaningfully contribute to combat (which, as a primarily attack-oriented class, is the place they're going to make their most meaningful contributions).


I mean, the reason to use Flurry of Blows is to increase your already respectable damage. Just like the reason to use Patient Defense is to try and avoid getting smacked in the face and Step of the Wind is to increase mobility. Just because a lot of players choose to pick damage over the other options doesn't mean they aren't valid or as useable. The weakest in combat is probably Step of the Wind, but it can also be used out of combat to help you overcome environmental hazards.

I think the problem here is a very narrow focus, I'm not sure if that's because you're seeing things that support a preconception or simply you don't value the differences between the options, but your posts seem to be overly reductionist of the subclasses to make them seem more similar than they actually are.

The problem is that too many of the subclasses' features proc off of Flurry of Blows. It's the same problem I have with the barbarian - when you're not raging, you're still a respectable combatant, but you get next to none of your subclass features. Attaching that much of your class's identity to a single action, especially an action that uses a limited resource (Rages per day/ki points), means that if you want to get something out of your subclass - the choice of which is a major decision point for your progression and which you'll therefore have some psychological incentive to make use of lest you feel you "wasted" that decision - you're going to end up using that same action most of the time. Thus, for example, an Open Hand monk is rarely going to use SotW or Patient Defense because if they use Flurry of Blows and knock a dragon prone, they're both activating a that they specifically chose and, because that activation wouldn't have been possible with a Shadow or 4 Elements monk, feeling a little dopamine rush at the value of having made that decision.

[Witty Username]

The only duality monk subclass is way of mercy, which is more a deadly doctor archetype. Admittedly the best subclass on paper as far as I can tell because it replaces the use of stunning strike and flurry of blows with the superior hand of harm.
Sidenote: I wouldn't classify mercy as enhancing flurry as Hand of harm does not require it and hand of healing more replaces the flurry with another benefit, and the 11th ability half way enhances healing hands which still replaces flurry rather than enhances it. The only call is hand of harm becomes free if used with flurry at 11th level and that is it.

Now I would agree that Open Hand feels bland, but I think that is more a personal thing (I don't like flurry only abilities because it has less impact than if I could apply it more generally). And a note that a Martial artist is probably well done by fighter now so monk is less necessary.

[Dork_Forge]

The problem is that too many of the subclasses' features proc off of Flurry of Blows. It's the same problem I have with the barbarian - when you're not raging, you're still a respectable combatant, but you get next to none of your subclass features. Attaching that much of your class's identity to a single action, especially an action that uses a limited resource (Rages per day/ki points), means that if you want to get something out of your subclass - the choice of which is a major decision point for your progression and which you'll therefore have some psychological incentive to make use of lest you feel you "wasted" that decision - you're going to end up using that same action most of the time. Thus, for example, an Open Hand monk is rarely going to use SotW or Patient Defense because if they use Flurry of Blows and knock a dragon prone, they're both activating a that they specifically chose and, because that activation wouldn't have been possible with a Shadow or 4 Elements monk, feeling a little dopamine rush at the value of having made that decision.

This isn't really the same though, no subclass keys entirely off of Flurry, just like not all of a Barbarian's subclass abilities key off of Rage (though their combat abilities are more tied to Rage than the Monk equivalents).

Open Hand: Literally only the 3rd level abilities involves Flurry directly

Drunken Master: the 6th and 11th abilities have nothing to do with Flurry

None of the Flurry enhancing subclasses are dependent on it to do subclass stuff, just 3rd level stuff really.




Sidenote: I wouldn't classify mercy as enhancing flurry as Hand of harm does not require it and hand of healing more replaces the flurry with another benefit, and the 11th ability half way enhances healing hands which still replaces flurry rather than enhances it. The only call is hand of harm becomes free if used with flurry at 11th level and that is it.

It doesn't require it, but being able to offload the healing to a bonus action is an enhancement imo, but later on it is an explicit enhancement with the level feature.

It's not the exact same template as the others, but there's clear interaction and leaning to Flurry that the independent subclasses don't contain.



Now I would agree that Open Hand feels bland, but I think that is more a personal thing (I don't like flurry only abilities because it has less impact than if I could apply it more generally). And a note that a Martial artist is probably well done by fighter now so monk is less necessary.


I'd disagree here, there's no room on a pure Fighter chassis to use Dex for attacks or enhance unarmored AC. You can certainly pull it off to an extent now with the unarmed style, but it's a muchhhh narrower scope, it doesn't cover what the Monk main class alone does, never mind the subclasses.

[neonchameleon]

For me, that we have several styles of "Physical" monks that use similar-enough concepts and mechanics to not stand out all that much.

For example, Open Hand focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Drunken Master focuses on using weapons for your Attack Action and punching people with Flurry of Blows. Kensei focuses on using weapons, and occasionally uses Flurry of Blows.

What happens when we apply this level to the fighter class. Champions, Battle Masters, Cavaliers, and Samurai are all the same?

Seriously, not getting your complaint. The three PHB monks are all very different. Sun Soul isn't Mercy or any of the above. Kensai has an odd specialty - and Drunken Master is thematic and inspiring.

[Man_Over_Game]

What happens when we apply this level to the fighter class. Champions, Battle Masters, Cavaliers, and Samurai are all the same?

Seriously, not getting your complaint. The three PHB monks are all very different. Sun Soul isn't Mercy or any of the above. Kensai has an odd specialty - and Drunken Master is thematic and inspiring.

I had mentioned it earlier, but you expect it out of fighters - 25% of their levels are devoted to adding more attacks to the Attack Action - where Monks have 4 different uses for their Bonus Action starting at level 2.

There's no reason for Monks to be limited to the same standard as a Fighter, when there are so many open opportunities for something else.

[neonchameleon]

I had mentioned it earlier, but you expect it out of fighters - 25% of their levels are devoted to adding more attacks to the Attack Action - where Monks have 4 different uses for their Bonus Action starting at level 2.

There's no reason for Monks to be limited to the same standard as a Fighter, when there are so many open opportunities for something else.

There's no reason for fighters to be limited in the way that they are. And indeed in Tasha's I'm very glad they are not; Wildemount brought us the Echo Knight, and Tasha's the Rune Knight and Psychic Warrior.

[loki_ragnarock]

... I'd actually like to see a *more* Jackie Chan inspired monk.

Which subclass lets me use ladder-fu? Exactly zero. I have to take a feat for ladder-fu, and that's just not tenable in a feat free gaming environment. Tavern Brawler also synergizes badly: monks already have better unarmed strikes, it doesn't allow for the ladder to benefit from martial arts abilities, it boosts kind of meh stats. There's more than enough room for a proper Jackie Chan monk.

I mean, the ability names just write themselves:
3rd: Ladder-Fu Master
6th: All My Own Stunts
11th: Also A Singer
17th: The Practitioner is a Myth

What the abilities are is a little more ephemeral. But the names just leap out at you.

[Rukelnikov]

... I'd actually like to see a *more* Jackie Chan inspired monk.

Which subclass lets me use ladder-fu? Exactly zero. I have to take a feat for ladder-fu, and that's just not tenable in a feat free gaming environment. Tavern Brawler also synergizes badly: monks already have better unarmed strikes, it doesn't allow for the ladder to benefit from martial arts abilities, it boosts kind of meh stats. There's more than enough room for a proper Jackie Chan monk.

I mean, the ability names just write themselves:
3rd: Ladder-Fu Master
6th: All My Own Stunts
11th: Also A Singer
17th: The Practitioner is a Myth

What the abilities are is a little more ephemeral. But the names just leap out at you.

This is unironically right.

[Imbalance]

... I'd actually like to see a *more* Jackie Chan inspired monk.

Which subclass lets me use ladder-fu? Exactly zero. I have to take a feat for ladder-fu, and that's just not tenable in a feat free gaming environment. Tavern Brawler also synergizes badly: monks already have better unarmed strikes, it doesn't allow for the ladder to benefit from martial arts abilities, it boosts kind of meh stats. There's more than enough room for a proper Jackie Chan monk.

I mean, the ability names just write themselves:
3rd: Ladder-Fu Master
6th: All My Own Stunts
11th: Also A Singer
17th: The Practitioner is a Myth

What the abilities are is a little more ephemeral. But the names just leap out at you.

Jackie Chan's background would give him vehicle proficiency (double if it's a Subaru).

[quinron]

Jackie Chan's background would give him vehicle proficiency (double if it's a Subaru).

Or a Segway.

[Devils_Advocate]

General consensus seems to be: "MOG, you're an idiot and this opinion is stupid".

Understood, thanks for the clarification.

No sarcasm, really, it helps to know how far off my thoughts are from the public opinion, so I don't push those biases onto my players.
That's commendably open-minded and considerate of you. For what it's worth, players rarely mind having more options. If you want to homebrew an unconventional Monk subclass but don't want to waste your time on something that players won't use (or even will receive poorly because they feel like it goes outside of what makes sense for the class), you could always ask your players if there are any new Monk concepts that they'd like to see implemented.

The one thing to avoid would be cutting down the number of Monastic Traditions for Monk players to pick from in the name of reducing "conceptual redundancy" or "thematic overlap". If there's a problem with overly-similar character options, it's poor allocation of game development resources, and it ain't like excluding material from a campaign does anything to help with that. It's not like everything has to be fully integrated into the setting. E.g., if a setting has a handful of competing dojos each of which has its own distinctive martial arts style, nothing about that precludes different styles with varying degrees of similarity to the well-known ones from being developed by player and non-player characters.

[LudicSavant]

Is it really that monks are too Jackie Chan? Or is it that Jackie Chan is literally every archetype?

I'll join those saying that none of the Monks are Jackie Chan enough. The Drunken Master is a missed opportunity.

[loki_ragnarock]

Come to think of it, I also wouldn't mind seeing a more David Carradine subclass that focused more on exploration and perception/human insight type powers, too.

What ability names would work for that? There's alot of good ones.

Level 3: Young Grasshopper
Level 6: The Stick is Straight
Level 11: Death Has No Victory
Level 17: Heaven and Earth are One

Again, I have no idea what those abilities are, but the names seem right.

[Rukelnikov]

Come to think of it, I also wouldn't mind seeing a more David Carradine subclass that focused more on exploration and perception/human insight type powers, too.

What ability names would work for that? There's alot of good ones.

Level 3: Young Grasshopper
Level 6: The Stick is Straight
Level 11: Death Has No Victory
Level 17: Heaven and Earth are One

Again, I have no idea what those abilities are, but the names seem right.

I think Open Hand is supposed to be the David Carradine's monk, Wholeness of Body and more specifically Tranquility, give the idea of introspection and violence as a last resort. Problem is DnD is historically, and presently, not a game where violence is a last resort, no published adventure that I know of works properly with a "violence as last resort" approach. My table does play it like that a lot, but the game is clearly not designed to accomodate it very much.

[HPisBS]

I think Open Hand is supposed to be the David Carradine's monk, Wholeness of Body and more specifically Tranquility, give the idea of introspection and violence as a last resort. Problem is DnD is historically, and presently, not a game where violence is a last resort, no published adventure that I know of works properly with a "violence as last resort" approach. My table does play it like that a lot, but the game is clearly not designed to accomodate it very much.

I so wish they'd stuck with and refined the Tranquility Monk instead of changing it into "Mercy" :smallsigh:

[Rukelnikov]

I so wish they'd stuck with and refined the Tranquility Monk instead of changing it into "Mercy" :smallsigh:

Well... It's 3rd level feature is an improved version of Open Hands 6th level ability plus an improved version of OH 11th level ability. Publishing that subclass would require changing OH.

IMO replacing OHs with the Tranquility's improved version is the way to go, but otherwise using Tranquility as is while throwing a bone to OH's 6 and 11 could also work.

[Dork_Forge]

Well... It's 3rd level feature is an improved version of Open Hands 6th level ability plus an improved version of OH 11th level ability. Publishing that subclass would require changing OH.

Wasn't this the subclass that basically got lay on hands, but 10 points per level and improved action economy?

Yeahhh that was never going to see publication....

[Rukelnikov]

Wasn't this the subclass that basically got lay on hands, but 10 points per level and improved action economy?

Yeahhh that was never going to see publication....

Well... Mercy ain't far from that...

[Dork_Forge]

Well... Mercy ain't far from that...

It's no where near that... With Tranquility Monk you could heal someone for 30hp as a bonus action at 3rd level, the healing built into Mercy is far more toned down and based entirely in Ki expediture and your Martial Arts Die. Tranquility Monk would probably be in the running for one of the deepest healers excluding things like amassing piles of goodberries.

[Rukelnikov]

It's no where near that... With Tranquility Monk you could heal someone for 30hp as a bonus action at 3rd level, the healing built into Mercy is far more toned down and based entirely in Ki expediture and your Martial Arts Die. Tranquility Monk would probably be in the running for one of the deepest healers excluding things like amassing piles of goodberries.

Yeah, once, and then its almost a monk without subclass until the next long rest.

Mercy instead can heal 3*(1d4+Wis) per short rest, with a 16 Wis thats 16.5 / sr. It would need at least 2 short rests to make Mercy a comparable healer, and even then it would be worse overall.

Tranquility is a better healer at low levels, while Mercy is a better healer at high levels, and can also choose to deal better damage and impose poisoned.

By lvl 11 Tranquility heals 110 hp per long reast, Mercy 22*(1d8+Wis) = 99 + 66 = 165 per short rest, there's no comparison at this point, and it the difference keeps growing in Mercy's favor.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Anyone else tired of Light/Dark Duality monks?

I mean, we got Light Monks, Dark Monks, Death Monks, Life/Death Monks. Hell, we got Spirit Monks. Next, they'll be saying that the "Shadow" Monks are some stupid hybrid of Light and Darkness, making room for "Super Dark" Monks.

Frankly, I'm kinda tired of it.

Personally, I'm a fan of the concept of a "Beast" monk, maybe something that multiclasses well with Barbarian. Wrote up a homebrew (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?577152-Monk-Subclass-Way-of-the-Savage-Heart-(Animal-form-Monk)) concept long while back as something I would kinda hope to see, but it seems they used those kinds of mechanics on the Beast Barbarian, ironically.

What are some other kinds of Monks you'd like to see that don't deal with the whole Dark/Light thing going on?

Personally, I think Monks should be religious.

Pretty much unarmored hybrids of Fighters and Clerics, kinda like how Paladins are seen as Fighters/Clerics.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah, once, and then its almost a monk without subclass until the next long rest.

Mercy instead can heal 3*(1d4+Wis) per short rest, with a 16 Wis thats 16.5 / sr. It would need at least 2 short rests to make Mercy a comparable healer, and even then it would be worse overall.

Tranquility is a better healer at low levels, while Mercy is a better healer at high levels, and can also choose to deal better damage and impose poisoned.

By lvl 11 Tranquility heals 110 hp per long reast, Mercy 22*(1d8+Wis) = 99 + 66 = 165 per short rest, there's no comparison at this point, and it the difference keeps growing in Mercy's favor.

Potential healing done over an entire day is not a great way to look at things. If a Mercy Monk were to actually hit those numbers then they'd spend their Ki on nothing but healing. Abandoning Hand of Harm (at least until later in the game where they can get a free use of it) and so much more from their core class: Flurry for damage, Stunning Strike, Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, rerolling saves with Diamond Soul. To actually achieve what you're talking about they become nothing but a heal bot, and even then their healing is driven hard into a niche: small heals.

Tranquility has the flexibility of having all of their Ki available to spam Flurries and Stuns, since their healing is a dedicated pool as well as dividing that pools as they need to. They can burst heal to refill someone that needs it, or they can drop a single point to pick someone up. Mercy only has the option of MA die+Wis, which can lead to healing that doesn't strictly benefit anyone and over healing.

This doesn't even go into self healing, if the Mercy Monk is topping themselves off then Tranquility can use Quickened Healing to do the same with all of the Ki they have to hand relative to basically all other subclasses, they literally have no additional uses for Ki.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Mercy Monk, I'm writing a Monk guide right now and raved about it, but tying their healing to Ki expenditure made hard choices that make this pretty simple: for a Mercy Monk to be a better healer they need to sacrifice basically everything else, whilst Tranquility gets an over-inflated pool dedicated to nothing but that and can shunt it all into a bonus action whilst maintaining their at-will DPR.

There's a reason why Paladin's formula is 5*level (and I've never seen anyone think it was ever inadequate healing) and there's a reason why we've never seen a Monk printed that didn't need Ki to some degree to use their abilities.

[Amdy_vill]

I like the subclass line up. And think the light dark theme is ok. While I would like other themes form wotc I would be fine not to. 3rd party and homebrew are always an option

[verbatim]

There's a reason why Paladin's formula is 5*level (and I've never seen anyone think it was ever inadequate healing) and there's a reason why we've never seen a Monk printed that didn't need Ki to some degree to use their abilities.


You can break monk subclass features down into 5 categories, only one of which absolutely requires ki:

- is free: Hour of Reaping (Long Death), Agile Parry (Kensei), Tipsy Sway (Drunken Master)

- improves a base class feature that uses ki: Open Hand Technique, Flurry of Healing and Harm (Mercy), Wings Unfurled (Dragon)

- let's you spend ki to do something new: Quivering Palm (Open Hand), Visage of the Astral Self, Touch of the Long Death, Hands of Harm (Mercy)

- costs a new resource: Wholeness of Body (Open Hand) is 1/Long Rest, Healing Hands (Tranquility) is 10* Monk Level

- costs a new resource THEN ki: Breath of the Dragon is prof bonus/Long Rest or 1 ki if you want to go past this limit.



It should be worth noting that both the druid and the warlock have subclasses that add bonus action healing that costs no main class resource, and that tying subclass features to spending base class resources is exclusive to monks and spellcasters who still have spellslots after the fact.

I think that spending an action healing at no ki cost (and therefore not being eligible for a bonus action attack via unarmed fighting or flurry of blows) is not problematic so long as the amount of healing the monk gets makes sense (i.e., probably not 10*level).

[Garfunion]

Since the 4 elements monk was mentioned, they could always try to create a Wu jen monk archetype to try and replace it.

[Dork_Forge]

It should be worth noting that both the druid and the warlock have subclasses that add bonus action healing that costs no main class resource, and that tying subclass features to spending base class resources is exclusive to monks and spellcasters who still have spellslots after the fact.

I'm aware, but what's your point when we're talking about Monk subclasses?

-As spell casters a big boon for them is having a none spell healing ability

-The Warlock is a short rest class, but on a completely different track than the Monk, the sheer number of Ki points basically requires some degree of Ki based expenditure somewhere in the subclass, otherwise they can spam Flurry and Stunning to an insane degree as levels advance

Monk subclasses fall into fairly predicatable rough templates (which I outlined above), there's no other class that functions entirely on short rest resources so comparisons to other classes are few and far between (the best one possibily being a Battle Master Fighter, but even then the base chassis of the Fighter revolves around ASIs and Extra Attack, the Monk revolves around Ki).


I think that spending an action healing at no ki cost (and therefore not being eligible for a bonus action attack via unarmed fighting or flurry of blows) is not problematic so long as the amount of healing the monk gets makes sense (i.e., probably not 10*level).


I assume you're still talking about a pool resource here? Besides being a bit precedent breaking, there's nothing inherently wrong with a single ability having another resource, the Tranquility Monk had literally no use for Ki at any subclass feature. The issue here though quickly becomes toe stepping, we already have a Paladin with a core class feature that works like this. So whilst 10*Monk level is far too much, 5*Monk level is basically lay on hands as a subclass feature (potentially with more action economy options). If it was to be a separate pool, then something like two rolls of your Martial Arts Die that can be used prof times per day, with a high Ki cost for subsequent uses would be more in vogue with today's design I think.

I'm really happy with the Mercy Monk as a healer though, it's a very Monkish healer and steps on virtually no one's toes: they're hyper mobile combat medics.


IMO if a monk subclass is gonna consume ki at least some of their features should be modeled off of the Open Hand/Purple Dragon philosophy, where you get to spend your resource to use an improved version of a base class feature (Flurry of Blows/Step of the Wind/Patient Defense/Deflect Missiles/Stunning Strike/etc).

Are you saying this about Mercy? Their later levels does enhance Flurry (free Hand of Harm use, able to swap both attacks for Hand of Healing).

In general if a subclass has abilities that cost Ki and they don't interact with Flurry, then they normally receive at-will abilities instead:

-Kensei level 3 abilities

-Shadow Monk cantrip, everything else

-Sun Soul, a decent amount of the subclass as a whole

The only ones that really break the mold are 4e (which still gets that cantripish discipline) and Astral Self, which is all around kinda weird but I guess does this by way of the 11th level ability: by having both the arms and visage summoned you get the body for free.

Tangent: I really like the idea of the PDK, but it was terrible implementation, at the very least it should have increased Second Wind usage to more than once per rest (and clarity about bringing up unconscious creatures in the feature).

Edit: oh you edited your post, well the only thing I'd really address differently is this


- costs a new resource: Wholeness of Body (Open Hand) is 1/Long Rest, Healing Hands (Tranquility) is 10* Monk Level

I don't agree with something that is single use per day as using a new resource, I'm finding it hard to put into words why, but calling it using a new resource just doesn't feel right. The Tranquility Monk actually gains a new resource, its pool of points, the Open Hand comparison just doesn't fit. It can't be used for anything else, it can't be used in a varying way like a pool of flexible points/dice, like I would say racial casting is using a resource: the ability itself is a resource available to the player, but the ability is not using a resource if that makes sense?

[verbatim]

I assume you're still talking about a pool resource here? Besides being a bit precedent breaking, there's nothing inherently wrong with a single ability having another resource, the Tranquility Monk had literally no use for Ki at any subclass feature.

I think that the tranquility monk having zero features that interact with ki is a bridge too far, imo the best subclasses tie in ki for some but not all of their features.




So whilst 10*Monk level is far too much, 5*Monk level is basically lay on hands as a subclass feature (potentially with more action economy options). If it was to be a separate pool, then something like two rolls of your Martial Arts Die that can be used prof times per day, with a high Ki cost for subsequent uses would be more in vogue with today's design I think.
Agreed.



Tangent: I really like the idea of the PDK, but it was terrible implementation, at the very least it should have increased Second Wind usage to more than once per rest (and clarity about bringing up unconscious creatures in the feature).
I would like to see more subclass features that give you extra benefits when you spend a main class resources (monk's Patient Defense, wizard's Arcane Recovery, etc).



Edit: oh you edited your post, well the only thing I'd really address differently is this.
Apologies.



I don't agree with something that is single use per day as using a new resource, I'm finding it hard to put into words why, but calling it using a new resource just doesn't feel right. The Tranquility Monk actually gains a new resource, its pool of points, the Open Hand comparison just doesn't fit. It can't be used for anything else, it can't be used in a varying way like a pool of flexible points/dice, like I would say racial casting is using a resource: the ability itself is a resource available to the player, but the ability is not using a resource if that makes sense?

Perhaps a more apt comparison would be Celestial Warlock getting a d6 of healing per warlock level.

[Dork_Forge]

I think that the tranquility monk having zero features that interact with ki is a bridge too far, imo the best subclasses tie in ki for some but not all of their features.

Completely agree, a subclass not having uses for Ki is problematic more than anything else.


I would like to see more subclass features that give you extra benefits when you spend a main class resources (monk's Patient Defense, wizard's Arcane Recovery, etc).

I... don't see the connection between those two things. One is an option for your resources and the other is just more resources to use your options. I won't go on beyond that because Arcane Recovery is a feature I think poorly of for a number of reasons.


Apologies.

No need, nature of the beast not a transgression on your part.


Perhaps a more apt comparison would be Celestial Warlock getting a d6 of healing per warlock level.

Quibble, it's level+1 (to distinguish it from Balm of the Summer Court), but separately I think the Monk is just a bad basis for that because Ki is so abundant in comparison to any other class' resources. If they had a higher base amount of ki and a more limited SR regeneration then i think that would work better.

[MrStabby]

Personally I don't think that it is wrong to say that monks fall into some kind of paths in opposition to each other, but rather the idea of what could be considered opposition is so broad as not not be particularly meaningful.

For example I would love a nature themed monk. Your hermit character, living simply under the trees and a martial protector of the forest. Not a hunter like the ranger or a major spellcaster like a druid but still with the power to channel the vibrant energy of plant-life through their touch.

Now to me this is not conceived as being part of a pair with any kind of opposite number, but were it to be introduced you could turn around and think its all about life so of course it is in opposition to Long Death. It isn't wrong, but it requires some pretty broad definitions of what opposites are and requires some subclasses to be opposites to multiple others. Or possibly the opposition monk would be like Gary Oldman in Kung-Fu Panda 2.

I think that some opposites could be cool - I could see a seasonal cycle of monks being good, possibly capturing a bit of a fey theme like the Eladrin. A monk of the Winter Solstice would be nice, in opposition to a monk of the Summer Court etc.

Likewise I could see the current options having opposites explicitly being made for them as being rewarding. In opposition to Mercy monks, why not a Suffering monk (can capture both Loviatar style beliefs AND Ilmater style). In opposition to the Kensei monk which focusses on weapons I would love to see a monk focussed on grappling arts and throws (actually if I am honest I would prefer to see this as alternative class features so it can be applied to any monk). If the 4 elements Monk represents the Inner Planes then I would love to see the yin-yang duality with an Outsider focussed Outer Planes monk.