PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next WIP Darkest Dungeon inspired Hellion sub-class



saucerhead
2021-04-29, 01:31 PM
Barbarian sub-class
THE HELLION
At 3rd level:
-Proficiency in weapon smithing or animal handling.
-Unarmed fighting style or Great Weapon fighting style.
-Adrenaline Rush (while raging)

Gives you resistance to poison damage while active
Gives you 1d4 temporary hit points at the start of your turn while active
Gives you +1 to hit and +1 damage while active (in addition to rage damage)

-Barbaric Roar (once per short rest) is an action to activate and it won’t end your rage if you are raging.

Any creature in the 10ft area of effect in front of you must make a CON save vs. your Intimidation skill or be stunned until the end of it’s next turn.

saucerhead
2021-05-14, 10:42 AM
Barbarian sub-class
THE HELLION

At 6th level:
-Proficiency in deception, persuasion, or performance.

-Carousing:
Gives you advantage on charisma based rolls in social situations involving drinking and revelry, but NOT during combat. You are only popular before, or possibly after, the bar fight.

-Adrenaline Rush (while raging) now includes the following:

Gives you resistance to cold damage while active
Gives you 1d6 temporary hit points at the start of each of your turn while active, instead of 1d4.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-15, 03:51 AM
Most of the Hellions combat skills are granted by the basic Barbarian.

Her weapon of choice is a glaive (martial weapon proficiency). Her "armour" of choice is a wolf's pelt (Unarmored Defense). She increases her strength and durability by entering a frenzied state (Rage)

Instead of trying to represent these things with subclass features like Great Weapon Fighting Style and Adrenaline Rush, you should focus on the things she can do that basic barbarians cant!

1. Her Barbaric YAWP: a war cry that temporarily fightens and stuns targets (you took a good shot at this!)

2. Her bleed skills: the ability to inflict lingering injuries on any enemy with discernable anatomy.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-15, 10:07 AM
Similarly, most of the Hellions camp skills are things any adventurer can do.

Any adventurer can sharpen a spear (no need for smith's tools). Any adventurer can party over drinks.

Instead of representing these as stand-alone features, I think you should tie them to her combat features.

For example, if you get Roar at 3rd level (which frightens creatures within 30 feet of you) you could get Revel at 6th level (which causes frightened creatures to be charmed by you, if they are not hostile)

noob
2021-05-15, 10:13 AM
Similarly, most of the Hellions camp skills are things any adventurer can do.

Any adventurer can sharpen a spear (no need for smith's tools). Any adventurer can party over drinks.

Instead of representing these as stand-alone features, I think you should tie them to her combat features.

For example, if you get Roar at 3rd level (which frightens creatures within 30 feet of you) you could get Revel at 6th level (which causes frightened creatures to be charmed by you, if they are not hostile)

The reason why those are in here is because base barbarian simply does not have as many out of combat cool stuff as they should have.
All characters should have a lot of options for all the pillars of adventuring(talking to people, exploring, logistics and fighting)
Yet right now some have lots of options(rogues and bards) and others have way less.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-15, 02:58 PM
The reason why those are in here is because base barbarian simply does not have as many out of combat cool stuff as they should have.
All characters should have a lot of options for all the pillars of adventuring(talking to people, exploring, logistics and fighting)
Yet right now some have lots of options(rogues and bards) and others have way less.You misunderstood me.

I did not say "give the Hellion nothing but combat features".

I said "the Hellion's non combat features shouldnt be things anyone can do. They should reflect the things that make her powerful in combat.

For example, if one of her combat features is a war cry that terrifies her enemies, one of her non-combat features could be using the same war cry to earn the fearful respect of the people she interacts with."

saucerhead
2021-05-27, 08:24 AM
Most of the Hellions combat skills are granted by the basic Barbarian.

Her weapon of choice is a glaive (martial weapon proficiency). Her "armour" of choice is a wolf's pelt (Unarmored Defense). She increases her strength and durability by entering a frenzied state (Rage)

Instead of trying to represent these things with subclass features like Great Weapon Fighting Style and Adrenaline Rush, you should focus on the things she can do that basic barbarians cant!

1. Her Barbaric YAWP: a war cry that temporarily fightens and stuns targets (you took a good shot at this!)

2. Her bleed skills: the ability to inflict lingering injuries on any enemy with discernable anatomy.

The yawp is a great ability in the video game, but the stunning effect in 5e is really strong, so I kept the range pretty small. I made it a contest between their intimidation skill and the targets Con, which also limits the effect as players tend to dump Charisma stats. As to bleed skills, I have been trying to come up with something balanced without much success so far. In the existing rules all I have found that is remotely close are those around the sword of wounding. I might do something similar, but the barbarian base class is really combat heavy already.

saucerhead
2021-05-27, 09:32 AM
Similarly, most of the Hellions camp skills are things any adventurer can do.

Any adventurer can sharpen a spear (no need for smith's tools). Any adventurer can party over drinks.

Instead of representing these as stand-alone features, I think you should tie them to her combat features.

For example, if you get Roar at 3rd level (which frightens creatures within 30 feet of you) you could get Revel at 6th level (which causes frightened creatures to be charmed by you, if they are not hostile)

I think the barbarian wasn't given enough out of combat abilities. Most players that choose barbarian generally want to go with bear totem and be a beast in combat, but tend to have almost no role outside of that unless they multi-class. Yes, anyone can sharpen a weapon or drink in the tavern, but if you give a player a skill they will usually try to use it. That is better than always relying on another player like the paladin to do every social interaction. Most of the 6th level barbarian abilities are situational too, except maybe the berserker's mindless rage, but I've never seen anyone choose to be a berserker, and it is strictly combat oriented just like all the base class abilities. By giving the Hellion an extra charisma based skill and then advantage on charisma based skills while drinking/revelry I was looking for a way to have the character be somewhat charming without resorting to magic or hostility. I was trying to open up possibilities for more role-playing.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-27, 12:15 PM
The yawp is a great ability in the video game, but the stunning effect in 5e is really strong, so I kept the range pretty small. I made it a contest between their intimidation skill and the targets Con, which also limits the effect as players tend to dump Charisma stats.Like I said, you did a pretty good job with this.


As to bleed skills, I have been trying to come up with something balanced without much success so far. In the existing rules all I have found that is remotely close are those around the sword of wounding. I might do something similar, but the barbarian base class is really combat heavy already.The Barbarian is really damage heavy, but it actually has very few options in combat besides "Attack, attack, attack". If you want to represent the bleed skills, you could represent them as combat options that do not deal much damage, but inflict lingering injuries. For example:




"Maim. Starting at ??? level, when you score a critical hit, you can choose not to deal additional damage. Instead, your target is Blinded, Deafened, unable to speak, or Prone and unable to stand until it regains hit points equal to the damage of your attack."






I think the barbarian wasn't given enough out of combat abilities. Most players that choose barbarian generally want to go with bear totem and be a beast in combat, but tend to have almost no role outside of that unless they multi-class. Yes, anyone can sharpen a weapon or drink in the tavern, but if you give a player a skill they will usually try to use it. That is better than always relying on another player like the paladin to do every social interaction.I'm aware that the Barbarian lacks out of combat skills. I agree that the Barbarian should have more out-of-combat skills.

What I'm saying is that smiths tools are not representative of the Hellion, and that partying over drinks is something anyone can do. I'm saying that you should write something more representative of the Hellion, and that not just anyone could do.


Most of the 6th level barbarian abilities are situational too, except maybe the berserker's mindless rage, but I've never seen anyone choose to be a berserker, and it is strictly combat oriented just like all the base class abilities. By giving the Hellion an extra charisma based skill and then advantage on charisma based skills while drinking/revelry I was looking for a way to have the character be somewhat charming without resorting to magic or hostility. I was trying to open up possibilities for more role-playing.I know what you're trying to do. I think there are better ways to do it. I'll repeat my suggestion.




"Roar. Starting at 3rd level, you can use your action to intimidate every creature within 10 feet of you. Each creature who can see or hear you must make a Constitution saving throw (DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier). On a failed save, that creature is Frightened by you for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.


Once a creature has witnessed your Roar, it is immune to your Roar until it finishes a long rest.



"Revel. Starting at 6th level, when you Frighten a non-hostile creature, you can choose to Charm it instead.





The 3rd level feature is a version of your "Barbaric Roar". It's mostly a combat feature, although it could be used as a social tool if you just want people to get out of your way.

The 6th level feature is a social tool. It works together with Roar by causing Frightened creatures to be Charmed. It makes the Hellion charismatic, and it doesn't rely on magic, hostility, or even drinking. All the Hellion has to do is show up, look tough and be loud.

saucerhead
2021-05-27, 01:19 PM
Thanks. You've given me some interesting things to think about.

saucerhead
2021-05-27, 03:35 PM
Your version of the roar will likely hit the party. I prefer to have the effect limited to the front facing, but I like the idea of charming non combatants. The Hellion does offer to wrestle because it's fun. Your version didn't include a way out for the target though. I know you don't care for the fighting styles, but for now I have left them in. I have made some changes though.

Barbarian sub-class
THE HELLION
At 3rd level:
-Proficiency in survival, nature or animal handling.
-Unarmed fighting style or Great Weapon fighting style.

-Barbaric Roar (once per short rest) is an action to activate and it won’t end your rage if you are raging. Any creature in the 10ft area of effect in front of you must make a CON save (DC=8+your proficiency bonus plus your Charisma modifier) or suffer the frightened condition for 1 minute, or until it takes any damage. Once a creature has witnessed your Roar, it is immune to your Roar until it finishes a long rest.

-Adrenaline Rush (while raging)

Gives you resistance to poison damage while active
Gives you 1d4 temporary hit points at the start of your turn while active
Gives you +1 to strength attack rolls


At 6th level:
-Proficiency in one of deception, persuasion, performance or intimidation.

-Barbaric Roar now includes the following options:

When you Frighten a hostile creature, you can choose to Stun it, until the end of its next turn, instead.
When you Frighten a non-hostile creature, you can choose to Charm it, as per the charmed condition, until it takes any damage instead.


-Adrenaline Rush (while raging) additionally includes the following:

Gives you resistance to cold damage while active
Gives you 1d6 temporary hit points at the start of each of your turn while active, instead of 1d4.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-27, 04:02 PM
Your version of the roar will likely hit the party. I prefer to have the effect limited to the front facing,If you're worried that Roar will frighten your allies, why not tweak it do it affects "creatures of your choice within 10 ft".


but I like the idea of charming non combatants. The Hellion does offer to wrestle because it's fun. Your version didn't include a way out for the target though.My version changes the Frightened condition into the Charmed condition. Whatever the way out was for the Frightened condition becomes the way out for the Charmed condition.


-Proficiency in survival, nature or animal handling.The Barbarian already has access to all of these skills, and nothing suggests the Hellion is extra good at them.


Barbaric Roar (once per short rest) [...] Once a creature witnesses your Roar, it is immune to your Roar until it finishes a long rest.The reason I give creatures immunity to Roar is to prevent players from spamming it.

I want to avoid limiting it to once per rest, because that prevents or discourages the Hellion from using it in social situations.


-Adrenaline Rush (while raging) [...]The Hellion's Adrenaline Rush is already represented by the Barbarian's Rage, and the Barbarian is already strong and durable enough. These bonuses are unnecessary.


At 6th level:
-Proficiency in one of deception, persuasion, performance or intimidation.These skills are much more befitting of the Hellion. Move this feature to 3rd level, alongside Roar.


-Barbaric Roar now includes the following options:

When you Frighten a hostile creature, you can choose to Stun it until the end of its next turn instead.
When you Frighten a non-hostile creature, you can choose to Charm it until it takes any damage instead.Cool!

saucerhead
2021-05-28, 09:54 AM
...The Barbarian already has access to all of these skills, and nothing suggests the Hellion is extra good at them.


I agree there is nothing indicating the Hellion is extra good at those skills, I still feel the barbarian base class comes up a little short on out of combat roleplaying and thought an extra skill might be good. However, you are right I could just move the Charisma based skills to 3rd level instead and they do fit better.


The reason I give creatures immunity to Roar is to prevent players from spamming it.

I want to avoid limiting it to once per rest, because that prevents or discourages the Hellion from using it in social situations.

True. I like the immunity once it has be witnessed, but I was also worried about spamming it. If they roar and it works on some NPCs, and fails on some other NPCs, guards may be called and they just roar again at the guards, and maybe again if someone else arrives.


The Hellion's Adrenaline Rush is already represented by the Barbarian's Rage, and the Barbarian is already strong and durable enough. These bonuses are unnecessary.


The other 3rd level barbarian sub-classes are strong; bear-totem's resist all damage while raging especially. I didn't think just having barbaric roar alone would be enough to compete, not that it has to be a competition. The bear-totem, however, is so strong/tough at such low level it can sometimes make encounter balancing difficult. That is why I tried to represent the Adrenaline Rush as adding extra resistances slowly as the character goes up in levels: poison resist at 3rd, cold resist at 6th, etc. I added the small amount of temporary hit points to not only reflect the computer game, but to help represent the Hellion ignoring pain and wounds while raging. Mostly, it was about trying to balance with the bear totem's prowess, but in a different way.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-28, 10:14 AM
True. I like the immunity once it has be witnessed, but I was also worried about spamming it. If they roar and it works on some NPCs, and fails on some other NPCs, guards may be called and they just roar again at the guards, and maybe again if someone else arrives.What's wrong with the Hellion roaring at the guards? It doesn't mean she isn't under arrest anymore.


The other 3rd level barbarian sub-classes are strong; bear-totem's resist all damage while raging especially.Barbarians already have resistance to the three most common damage types. The bear totem gains resistance to situational damage types, which is good, but it isn't as huge and you think.

Being able to give most enemies disadvantage on attacks against you and your allies (by Frightening them) is probably just as good. It's a less reliable (because they can make a saving throw to resist it), but also less situational, and the whole party benefits.

saucerhead
2021-05-28, 11:58 AM
What's qring with the Hellion roaring at the guards? It doesn't mean she isn't under arrest anymore.

It is the potential for spamming that is what I am making the example for. If you don't like once per short rest, maybe could limit to something else? How about a number of times equal to the hellion's Constitution modifier? That might be too much book-keeping though. Not sure, but I don't think it should be 20 times a day. The party would want them gagged. Can you imagine visiting a whole tribe of hellions? LOL


Barbarians already have resistance to the three most common damage types. The bear totem gaining resistance to situational damage types is good, but it isnt as huge ad you think.

Being able to give most enemies disadvantage on attacks against you and your allies (by Frightening them) is probably just as good. It's a less reliable, but also less situational, and the whole party benefits.
True, but if gaining situational resistances isn't huge, then gaining one every few levels can't be a big deal either? Then small number of temporary hit points would amount to maybe preventing 10 or 12 real hit points of damage in a big fight. Good at low level, but not really a big deal in later levels.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-28, 12:42 PM
It is the potential for spamming that is what I am making the example for. If you don't like once per short rest, maybe could limit to something else? How about a number of times equal to the hellion's Constitution modifier? That might be too much book-keeping though. Not sure, but I don't think it should be 20 times a day. The party would want them gagged. Can you imagine visiting a whole tribe of hellions? LOLI know you're giving me an example of the potential for spamming. But I don't see any problem with spamming in that situation. As long as you can't spam it on the same creatures over and over again, it's fun and it's balanced.

Hellion: "I Roar at the townsfolk"
DM: "The townsfolk have terrible Con saves. They are all frightened, so they call guards. Four guards arrive, each carrying a pike and a net."

Hellion: "I Roar at the guards"
DM: "The guards have decent Con saves. Two of them are frightened, and two of them are not. Roll initiative"

Hellion: "I begin my Rage and attack one of the fearless guards. I'll deal with the frightened ones last, because they are less of a threat"
DM: "You knock the fearless guard to 0 hit points. The other fearless guard attacks you with net, which Restrains you. The two frightened guards have advantage on attacks against Restrained creatures, which cancels the Disadvantage from being frightened. They attack you using pikes (1d10+3, or 8 damage on average). You take 4 damage from each of them (total 8)

Hellion: "I use my action to break free from the net"
DM: "The fearless guard and the two frightened guards attack you with pikes. One of the frightened guards misses, due to disadvantage. You take 4 damage from each hit (total 16)

Hellion: "I attack the fearless guard"
DM: "You knock the fearless guard to 0 hit points. The two frightened guards throw their nets. The first one misses, due to disadvantage, but the second one catches you, and both of them back away 30 feet"

Hellion: "I use my action to break free from the net"
DM: "You have neither taken damage nor dealt damage for 1 round of combat. Your Rage ends, and the guards take this opportunity to approach you and attack with their pikes. One misses, due to disadvantage, but the second one hits you and deal 8 damage (total 24)"

Hellion: "I begin another Rage and attack one of the frightened guards."
DM: "You knock him down to 0 hit points. The last guard sees that he is outmatched and runs away. He announces that a bounty will be placed on your head, but for now the town guards are leaving you alone."


True, but if gaining situational resistances isn't huge, then gaining one every few levels can't be a big deal either? Then small number of temporary hit points would amount to maybe preventing 10 or 12 real hit points of damage in a big fight. Good at low level, but not really a big deal in later levels.I don't think the resistances and temporary hit points you're granting are too powerful. I think they're too clunky, and that they don't help represent the Hellion at all.

What does +1 on Strength based attack rolls represent that Rage Damage doesn't? What do the temporary hit points represent that Rage's damage resistance doesn't? And why does the Hellion gain resistance to cold damage?

saucerhead
2021-05-28, 03:24 PM
I know you're giving me an example of the potential for spamming. But I don't see any problem with spamming in that situation. As long as you can't spam it on the same creatures over and over again, it's fun and it's balanced.

Hellion: "I Roar at the townsfolk"
DM: "The townsfolk have terrible Con saves. They are all frightened, so they call guards. Four guards arrive, each carrying a pike and a net."

Hellion: "I Roar at the guards"
DM: "The guards have decent Con saves. Two of them are frightened, and two of them are not. Roll initiative"

Hellion: "I begin my Rage and attack one of the fearless guards. I'll deal with the frightened ones last, because they are less of a threat"
DM: "You knock the fearless guard to 0 hit points. The other fearless guard attacks you with net, which Restrains you. The two frightened guards have advantage on attacks against Restrained creatures, which cancels the Disadvantage from being frightened. They attack you using pikes (1d10+3, or 8 damage on average). You take 4 damage from each of them (total 8)

Hellion: "I use my action to break free from the net"
DM: "The fearless guard and the two frightened guards attack you with pikes. One of the frightened guards misses, due to disadvantage. You take 4 damage from each hit (total 16)

Hellion: "I attack the fearless guard"
DM: "You knock the fearless guard to 0 hit points. The two frightened guards throw their nets. The first one misses, due to disadvantage, but the second one catches you, and both of them back away 30 feet"

Hellion: "I use my action to break free from the net"
DM: "You have neither taken damage nor dealt damage for 1 round of combat. Your Rage ends, and the guards take this opportunity to approach you and attack with their pikes. One misses, due to disadvantage, but the second one hits you and deal 8 damage (total 24)"

Hellion: "I begin another Rage and attack one of the frightened guards."
DM: "You knock him down to 0 hit points. The last guard sees that he is outmatched and runs away. He announces that a bounty will be placed on your head, but for now the town guards are leaving you alone."

I don't think the resistances and temporary hit points you're granting are too powerful. I think they're too clunky, and that they don't help represent the Hellion at all.

What does +1 on Strength based attack rolls represent that Rage Damage doesn't? What do the temporary hit points represent that Rage's damage resistance doesn't? And why does the Hellion gain resistance to cold damage?

What it represents is the Adrenaline Rush in the game, and gives the Hellion a small buff because as I said before most players are going to dump Charisma when they choose a barbarian class or maybe give it a 12 at best. I don't think the Roar is enough on its own if the DC is only 11 or 12 to ignore it.
-The adrenalines temporary hit points lets them ignore pain and wounds, but doesn't prevent wounds like bludge/slash/pierce resistance. In D.D. there is a small HP gain.
-The +1 to attack roll represents increased accuracy from the adrenaline in D.D. which I agree could be covered by reckless attack in the base class so it could removed.
-The poison resist at 3rd and cold resist at 6th represents a growing effect of Adrenaline rushing through them while raging. I realize there aren't any cold effects in D.D.(It does look as though the D.D.2 might though.) but the DnD world is not limited that way. If you don't think adrenaline lets you ignore cold, I am open to suggestions.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-28, 04:24 PM
What it represents is the Adrenaline Rush in the gameI know that it represents Adrenaline Rush.

I'm saying that Adrenaline Rush already represented by the Barbarian's features. There is no need to add another feature for it. Everything you write is either redundant is irrelevant.


It gives the Hellion a small buff because as I said before most players are going to dump Charisma when they choose a barbarian class or maybe give it a 12 at best. I don't think the Roar is enough on its own if the DC is only 11 or 12 to ignore it.Then why not buff Roar? Change it from a Constituation save (which is a strong save for many monsters) to a Wisdom save (which is a weak save for most monsters, and the normal save for fear effects).

Maybe even change the DC to 8 + proficiency + Strength or Constitution so it doesn't rely on the Barbarian's dump stat.


The +1 to attack roll represents increased accuracy from the adrenaline in D.D. which I agree could be covered by reckless attack in the base class so it could removed.I agree. This should be removed.


The poison resist at 3rd and cold resist at 6th represents a growing effect of Adrenaline rushing through them while raging. I realize there aren't any cold effects in D.D.(It does look as though the D.D.2 might though.) but the DnD world is not limited that way. If you don't think adrenaline lets you ignore cold, I am open to suggestionsIn Darkest Dungeon, Adrenaline Rush serves three purposes.

One purpose is increasing your damage and accuracy for the rest of the fight. Rage and Reckless Attack already do this, so I would ignore that aspect.

The second purpose is offering juuust enough healing to take you off death's door, but not enough to be useful in any other circumstance. Relentless Rage already does this, so I would ignore that aspect.

The third and final purpose curing the Blight and Bleed conditions. The Barbarian has no features that do this, because Poisoned is an uncommon condition and bleeding does not exist.

So if you MUST include some kind of Adrenaline Rush, I think it should be similar to the Monk's Stillness of Mind, but for a different set of conditions.

saucerhead
2021-05-28, 05:40 PM
I know that it represents Adrenaline Rush.

...Everything you write is either redundant is irrelevant.
LOL. Okay. Well, most of what you have written seems less and less helpful and more condescending, so thanks for your input.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-28, 06:08 PM
LOL. Okay. Well, most of what you have written seems less and less helpful and more condescending, so thanks for your input.Maybe I misspoke. "Any feature anyone writes to represent Adenaline Rush will be either redundant or irrelevant". Because almost every effect of that combat skill is part of the Barbarian's chasis, it's basically impossible to write a feature for it that is neither redundant or irrelevant.

The only aspect of that skill not part of the Barbarian's chasis is curing conditions.

As a whole, your writing is full of novel and fitting features to represent DD heroes. Your Barbaric Roar was great from the start. Your Carousing aimed to solve a legitimate problem Barbarians have in a way appropriate for the Hellion.

And in your Grave Robber thread, you had a really interesting idea for Toxin Trickery: withdrawal effects. It's hard to put in practice because coming up with effects is difficult, but it was a smart and oblique idea.

saucerhead
2021-05-28, 06:50 PM
Maybe I misspoke. "Any feature anyone writes to represent Adenaline Rush will be either redundant or irrelevant". Because almost every effect of that combat skill is part of the Barbarian's chasis, it's basically impossible to write a feature for it that is neither redundant or irrelevant.

The only aspect of that skill not part of the Barbarian's chasis is curing conditions.


Fair enough. I might have to revisit the idea of bleeding attacks instead of adrenaline rush.
I prefer the roar to be tied directly to intimidation and charisma, but will consider possible changes. The idea of intimidation and bravado occasionally resulting in charming some people seems okay, but I am not sure I understand how that would work with Constitution. Possibly with strength, but I'm not sure. I initially had the saving throw against the Roar as Con because that is usually used to resist stunning attacks. You are correct, changing it to a fear effect is usually resisted by Wisdom.

saucerhead
2021-06-01, 08:43 AM
In trying to change the Adrenaline Rush ability to one that stops a bleeding wound, I wanted to keep it pretty simple. Which means I had to define what bleeding wounds are first, and they had to be simple too. So here is what I came up with.

Bleeding Wounds
A bleeding wound does damage equal to the attackers proficiency bonus every round for a duration of rounds also equal to their proficiency bonus. (For example: If your proficiency bonus is +3, your attack does 3 points of bleeding damage per round, for 3 rounds. If your proficiency bonus is +2, it does 2 bleeding damage per round, for 2 rounds.) Bleeding damage occurs at the immediate start of the wounded subject's turn. While this doesn't sound very powerful, two things make bleeding wounds very dangerous. One is that they stack, meaning multiple wounds can cause larger accumulated blood loss, and two, they don't stop until the duration ends, or the subject is treated to stop the bleeding, or the subject dies.


This is how I then adjusted the 3rd level Hellion ability.

Adrenaline Rush (an action to use)
-Cures poison, ending the poisoned condition.
-Cures bleeding wounds, ending all durations.
-Gain hit points equal to your Constitution modifier.

I hope to come up with a 6th level ability for the Hellion that causes bleeding wounds, but haven't just yet.
Edit: I obviously forgot I need to figure out the equivalent ability for monsters otherwise the hellion will never need to cure a bleeding wound, but one thing at a time I suppose.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-01, 09:40 AM
Adrenaline Rush (an action to use)
-Cures poison, ending the poisoned condition.
-Cures bleeding wounds, ending all durations.
-Gain hit points equal to your Constitution modifier.This version of Adrenaline Rush is a very good representation of original DD skill! And since I'm sure you're going to make poison and bleeding common in your campaign, this feature might come in very handy.

Just be careful about the healing effect. A Hellion could spam this feature to be fully healed between battles. Going with temporary hit points could prevent that.


Bleeding Wounds
A bleeding wound does damage equal to the attackers proficiency bonus every round for a duration of rounds also equal to their proficiency bonus.Computers can track damage over time very easily, which is why it's so common in Darkest Dungeon. But people lose track of damage over time very easily, which is why it doesnt exist in 5e.

That doesnt mean you need to edit this rule. Just make sure everyone is writing down how much they're bleeding and how long.

saucerhead
2021-06-01, 09:52 AM
This version of Adrenaline Rush is a very good representation of original DD skill! And since I'm sure you're going to make poison and bleeding common in your campaign, this feature might come in very handy.

Just be careful about the healing effect. A Hellion could spam this feature to be fully healed between battles. Going with temporary hit points could prevent that.

That was my thought too, but in DD you can't use the skill out of combat. Perhaps I should return to saying it only occurs while raging so it doesn't work out of combat.


Computers can track damage over time very easily, which is why it's so common in Darkest Dungeon. But people lose track of damage over time very easily, which is why it doesnt exist in 5e.

That doesnt mean you need to edit this rule. Just make sure everyone is writing down how much they're bleeding and how long.

I will have to edit it further anyways as monsters don't have a proficiency bonus and will need to inflict bleeding wounds for the hellion to cure them, but one step at a time.

EDIT: I checked the Monster Manual and it does indeed have a proficiency break down for monsters according to their CR on page 8.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-01, 10:14 AM
That was my thought too, but in DD you can't use the skill out of combat. Perhaps I should return to saying it only occurs while raging so it doesn't work out of combat.That's an excellent solution!


I will have to edit it further anyways as monsters don't have a proficiency bonus and will need to inflict bleeding wounds for the hellion to cure them, but one step at a time.Every monster has a proficiency bonus. It isn't written down on their stat block, but you can infer it by looking at the bonuses they add to their attack rolls, ability checks or saving throws.

For example:
A wolf (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=wolf) gains a +4 bonus to attack rolls and a +2 bonus to damage rolls with its bite. This means that it is gaining +2 from its ability (Dexterity) and +2 from proficiency.
A hill giant (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=) gains a +8 bonus to attack rolls and a +5 bonus to damage rolls with its greatclub and rock. this means that it is gaining a +5 bonus from its ability (Strength) and +3 from proficiency.
Merfolk (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=merfolk) gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and no bonus to damage rolls with their spears. This means that they are gaining nothing from their ability (Strength) and +2 from proficiency.

saucerhead
2021-06-01, 10:36 AM
The Barbarian is really damage heavy, but it actually has very few options in combat besides "Attack, attack, attack". If you want to represent the bleed skills, you could represent them as combat options that do not deal much damage, but inflict lingering injuries. For example:


"Maim. Starting at ??? level, when you score a critical hit, you can choose not to deal additional damage. Instead, your target is Blinded, Deafened, unable to speak, or Prone and unable to stand until it regains hit points equal to the damage of your attack."


I like this idea of yours, but crits are few and really turn any ability tied to it into a rarity. I know reckless attack can increase the odds, but the barbarian base class already has brutal critical. What if we just tied it to reckless attack instead?

Maim.
Starting at 6th level, when you reckless attack and hit and opponent, you can choose to give the target a bleeding wound rather than adding rage damage to the attack. The target must make a Constitution saving throw (DC= 8 + Hellion's proficiency bonus + Strength modifier) or suffer a bleeding wound and fall prone.

At higher levels this could be added to with further options like you suggested, blindness, incapacitated etc.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-01, 11:26 AM
I like this idea of yours, but crits are few and really turn any ability tied to it into a rarity. I know reckless attack can increase the odds, but the barbarian base class already has brutal critical. You're absolutely right that crits are rare, and that barbarians already capitalize off of them with Brutal Critical. Better to try something else.


What if we just tied it to reckless attack instead?

Maim.
Starting at 6th level, when you reckless attack and hit and opponent, you can choose to give the target a bleeding wound rather than adding rage damage to the attack. The target must make a Constitution saving throw (DC= 8 + Hellion's proficiency bonus + Strength modifier) or suffer a bleeding wound and fall prone.This seems needlessly complex. Why can't the Hellion make you bleed with ordinary, non-reckless attacks? And why does it involve a Constitution saving throw, when at the end of the day it's just hitting with an attack? And why does it cost rage damage (meaning that it can only be used during your rage)?

I understand the need to balance the enormous amount of damage you could rack up with bleed. But I think we can be simpler, and that we should, because bleeding is already a little cumbersome to keep track of.




Maim.
Starting at 6th level, when you hit a creature with an attack, you can choose to deal half damage and to give them a bleeding wound.





This version means that instead of dealing about 12 damage (1d12 + 6) with an attack, you deal about 6 damage with the attack itself and 9 (3 x 3) bleed damage for a total of 15. You can do this twice per turn too, so you're going from 24 damage to 30!


At higher levels this could be added to with further options like you suggested, blindness, incapacitated etc.tying it to reckless attack isAgreed! Probably not as strong as Blinded or Incapacitated, since we aren't going with ultra-rare crits, but something!

saucerhead
2021-06-01, 12:12 PM
You're absolutely right that crits are rare, and that barbarians already capitalize off of them with Brutal Critical. Better to try something else.

This seems needlessly complex. Why can't the Hellion make you bleed with ordinary, non-reckless attacks? And why does it involve a Constitution saving throw, when at the end of the day it's just hitting with an attack? And why does it cost rage damage (meaning that it can only be used during your rage)?

I understand the need to balance the enormous amount of damage you could rack up with bleed. But I think we can be simpler, and that we should, because bleeding is already a little cumbersome to keep track of.




Maim.
Starting at 6th level, when you hit a creature with an attack, you can choose to deal half damage and to give them a bleeding wound.[/I]





This version means that instead of dealing about 12 damage (1d12 + 6) with an attack, you deal about 6 damage with the attack itself and 9 (3 x 3) bleed damage for a total of 15. You can do this twice per turn too, so you're going from 24 damage to 30!

Agreed! Probably not as strong as Blinded or Incapacitated, since we aren't going with ultra-rare crits, but something!

I like your suggestion, but I don't know that bleeding wounds should be an automatic thing. Poison can be extra damage and/or a debuff. I think maybe bleeding wounds should be too, similar to what they are in the game DD where they are resisted and don't always work. It is potentially very strong if done with every attack on every round. I am not sure that is balanced.

In my idea they give up less damage for what is potentially more damage, although I didn't do the math, but I didn't say they had to be raging either. You don't have to be raging to make a reckless attack. How about if you aren't raging then you don't lose any damage on your attack? BUT it does put the Hellion at risk for doing it since they were reckless. That is also reflected in DD when the hellion is debuffed by her own actions. If there is a saving throw involved it would be easier to add other conditions like prone, or blinded in the future at higher levels too, but this was just a starting place for the idea.

You are correct that it is wordy. As to the Damage over Time aspect of bleeding wounds, there are spells that do DoT so I don't think it is that big an obstacle.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-01, 01:55 PM
I like your suggestion, but I don't know that bleeding wounds should be an automatic thing. Poison can be extra damage and/or a debuff. I think maybe bleeding wounds should be too, similar to what they are in the game DD where they are resisted and don't always work.I think DD could get away with that because a computer is "rolling the saving throws". In 5e, those extra rolls slow down the game, especially of they can be attached to every single attack you make. We want to avoid them unless they're necessary.


It is potentially very strong if done with every attack on every round. I am not sure that is balanced. [...] In my idea they give up less damage for what is potentially more damage, although I didn't do the math.


If you're using my version of Maim, Maim is very weak in the short term. A 6th level Hellion using Maim will lag behind a Hellion attacking normally until Round 4 of focusing on the same target.

This means that my version of Maim is only useful when you're fighting a creature with an enormous number of hit points or a creature with resistance to ordinary damage (just like in Darkest Dungeon!). It is nowhere near as strong as you fear.




Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5


Barbarian (no Maim)
24 damage. Total 24
24 damage. Total 48.
24 damage. Total 72
24 damage. Total 96
24 damage. Total 120


Barbarian (Galactic Maim)
18 damage. Total 18
24 damage. Total 42.
30 damage. Total 72
30 damage. Total 102
30 damage. Total 132


Compare this to your version of Maim. Assuming your target passes half of their saves and fails the other half, your version of Maim does just as much damage as not using Maim during the early rounds, and doesn't significantly more damage in the later rounds. It's strictly stronger, in terms of raw damage AND it knocks the target prone.




Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5


Barbarian (no Maim)
24 damage. Total 24
24 damage. Total 48.
24 damage. Total 72
24 damage. Total 96
24 damage. Total 120


Barbarian (Saucer Maim)
23 damage. Total 23
26 damage. Total 49.
29 damage. Total 78
29 damage. Total 102
29 damage. Total 131






but I didn't say they had to be raging either. You don't have to be raging to make a reckless attack. How about if you aren't raging then you don't lose any damage on your attack?Your version of Maim is already very powerful. The Hellion should have to give up damage to use it, just like when she uses "If It Bleeds" in Darkest Dungeon. Otherwise it's basically +9 damage for free.


BUT it does put the Hellion at risk for doing it since they were reckless.Reckless Attack is both a accuracy buff and a defense nerf. And because Barbarians deal great damage and have resistance to the three common damage types, the buff outweighs the nerf. So in terms of balance, there's no reason to tie Reckless Attack to Maim.


That is also reflected in DD when the hellion is debuffed by her own actions.In Darkest Dungeon the Hellion has two bleed skills. Neither of them decrease her defense or increase her accuracy like Reckless Attack do. So in terms of storytelling, there's no reason to tie Reckless Attack to Maim.


If there is a saving throw involved it would be easier to add other conditions like prone, or blinded in the future at higher levels too, but this was just a starting place for the idea. I think you should introduce the saving throw at higher levels, when you introduce those conditions.


You are correct that it is wordy. As to the Damage over Time aspect of bleeding wounds, there are spells that do DoT so I don't think it is that big an obstacle.No, there aren't. 5e has no spells that do damage over time.

saucerhead
2021-06-01, 03:15 PM
I think DD could get away with that because a computer is "rolling the saving throws". In 5e, those extra rolls slow down the game, especially of they can be attached to every single attack you make. We want to avoid them unless they're necessary.

Touche'.


If you're using my version of Maim, Maim is very weak in the short term. A 6th level Hellion using Maim will lag behind a Hellion attacking normally until Round 4 of focusing on the same target.

This means that my version of Maim is only useful when you're fighting a creature with an enormous number of hit points or a creature with resistance to ordinary damage (just like in Darkest Dungeon!). It is nowhere near as strong as you fear.




Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5


Barbarian (no Maim)
24 damage. Total 24
24 damage. Total 48.
24 damage. Total 72
24 damage. Total 96
24 damage. Total 120


Barbarian (Galactic Maim)
18 damage. Total 18
24 damage. Total 42.
30 damage. Total 72
30 damage. Total 102
30 damage. Total 132


Compare this to your version of Maim. Assuming your target passes half of their saves and fails the other half, your version of Maim does just as much damage as not using Maim during the early rounds, and doesn't significantly more damage in the later rounds. It's strictly stronger, in terms of raw damage AND it knocks the target prone.




Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5


Barbarian (no Maim)
24 damage. Total 24
24 damage. Total 48.
24 damage. Total 72
24 damage. Total 96
24 damage. Total 120


Barbarian (Saucer Maim)
23 damage. Total 23
26 damage. Total 49.
29 damage. Total 78
29 damage. Total 102
29 damage. Total 131





I liked it better the original way with the "isn't very powerful" and "is very powerful" headings when both versions were the same at 4 rounds and within 1 hit point of damage after 5 rounds. I thought that was funny. All in all though, I have to agree that your version is better since the maim is less damage up front and more later on. The prone condition was too much, but would be awesome at some point. Maybe 9th.


Your version of Maim is already very powerful. The Hellion should have to give up damage to use it, just like when she uses "If It Bleeds" in Darkest Dungeon. Otherwise it's basically +9 damage for free.
I totally agree. It was a terrible idea on my part.


Reckless Attack is both a accuracy buff and a defense nerf. And because Barbarians deal great damage and have resistance to the three common damage types, the buff outweighs the nerf. So in terms of balance, there's no reason to tie Reckless Attack to Maim.

In Darkest Dungeon the Hellion has two bleed skills. Neither of them decrease her defense or increase her accuracy like Reckless Attack do. So in terms of storytelling, there's no reason to tie Reckless Attack to Maim.

I think you should introduce the saving throw at higher levels, when you introduce those conditions.
Fair points.


No, there aren't. 5e has no spells that do damage over time.
Weird, I thought Heat Metal or something else did, but I believe you.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-01, 03:20 PM
I liked it better the original way with the "isn't very powerful" and "is very powerful" headings when both versions were the same at 4 rounds and within 1 hit point of damage after 5 rounds. I thought that was funny.LOL yeah! In the long term they accomplish the exact same thing, so saying yours is "very powerful" is misleading at best. But you get what I was saying.


Weird, I thought Heat Metal or something else did, but I believe you.There are spells like Witch Bolt and Heat Metal that sound like DoT effects, but actually require your action or bonus action to continue dealing damage. No spells just keep doing damage on their own.

saucerhead
2021-06-02, 12:18 PM
The newest version. Still a work in progress.

Barbarian sub-class
PATH of THE HELLION
At 3rd level:
-Proficiency in one of deception, persuasion, performance or intimidation.
-Unarmed fighting style or Great Weapon fighting style.

Barbaric Roar (is an action to activate and it won’t end your rage if you are raging.)
Any creature in the 10ft area of effect in front of you must make a Wisdom save (DC=8+your proficiency bonus plus your Charisma modifier) or suffer the frightened condition for 1 minute, or until it takes any damage. Affected creatures may attempt another Wisdom saving throw at the end of their next turn to end the frightened condition. Once a creature has witnessed your Roar, it is immune to your Roar until it finishes a long rest.

Adrenaline Rush (is an action to activate and won't end your rage, but can only be used while raging.)
-Cures poison, ending the poisoned condition.
-Cures bleeding wounds*, ending all durations.
-Gain hit points equal to your Constitution modifier.

At 6th level:
Barbaric Roar(now includes the following options)
-When you Frighten a hostile creature, you can choose to Stun it instead, until the end of its next turn.
-When you Frighten a non-hostile creature, you can choose to Charm it instead, as per the charmed condition, until it takes any damage.

Maim
-When you hit a creature with an attack during your turn, you can choose to deal half damage and to give them a bleeding wound*.

*Bleeding Wounds
A bleeding wound does damage equal to the attacker's proficiency bonus every round for a duration of rounds also equal to their proficiency bonus. (For example: If your proficiency bonus is +3, your attack does 3 points of bleeding damage per round, for 3 rounds. If your proficiency bonus is +2, it does 2 bleeding damage per round, for 2 rounds.) Bleeding damage occurs at the immediate start of the wounded subject's turn. While this doesn't sound very powerful, two things make bleeding wounds very dangerous. One is that they stack, meaning multiple wounds can cause larger accumulated blood loss, and two, they don't stop until the duration ends, or the subject is treated to stop the bleeding, or the subject dies.

saucerhead
2021-06-03, 11:25 AM
There are spells like Witch Bolt and Heat Metal that sound like DoT effects, but actually require your action or bonus action to continue dealing damage. No spells just keep doing damage on their own.

Hmmm... I wonder if a change is needed then? Something like this maybe?

Maim-When you hit a creature with an attack during your turn, you can choose to deal half damage and additionally give them bleeding damage equal to your proficiency bonus. This bleeding damage can be repeated as a bonus action on your next turn, for up to your proficiency bonus in rounds. (For example: If your proficiency bonus is +3, your attack does 3 points of bleeding damage per round, for up to 3 rounds. If your proficiency bonus is +2, it does 2 bleeding damage per round, for up to 2 rounds.) Bleeding wounds are very dangerous because they stack, meaning multiple wounds can cause larger accumulated blood loss.

I don't know if that makes sense, but it removes damage over time. It doesn't seem like an improvement though. What do you think?

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-03, 11:46 AM
I would leave Bleed the way you had it before.

If you want to have damage over time the way Darkest Dungeon does it, you're going to need to break 5e conventions.

saucerhead
2021-06-03, 02:16 PM
I would leave Bleed the way you had it before.

If you want to have damage over time the way Darkest Dungeon does it, you're going to need to break 5e conventions.

Agreed. It just didn't make sense tying bleeding damage to bonus actions.

I am thinking, however, the 6th level has too many things now. I might remove the stunning option from the Roar, and possibly bring it back at a higher level.

Here is an idea I am working on for a "breakthrough" attack:
-10th level, uses an action
-make a reckless attack roll to hit any targets within range of your melee weapon, up to your proficiency modifier in number.
-each target hit takes half damage and is either forced to retreat 5 feet or falls prone.

I am trying to decide if there needs to be a contest or saving throw for each target, as it would mean lots of dice rolls after already rolling to hit.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-03, 02:54 PM
I am thinking, however, the 6th level has too many things now. I might remove the stunning option from the Roar, and possibly bring it back at a higher level.I think that's a good feature to introduce at 10th level.


Here is an idea I am working on for a "breakthrough" attack:
10th level, uses an action
make a reckless attack roll to hit any targets within range of your melee weapon, up to your proficiency modifier in number.
each target hit takes half damage and is either forced to retreat 5 feet or falls prone.A 10th level Hunter Ranger can use the Whirlwind Attack action to attack every creature within his reach. Just give the Hellion that.

Knocking people away from you on hit is cool and useful! But I wouldnt tie it to this feature. I would write a feature that let's you do that for free with any melee attack, similar to the Warlock's Repelling Blast invocation.


I am trying to decide if there needs to be a contest or saving throw for each target, as it would mean lots of dice rolls after already rolling to hit.If the feature knocks people prone, it needs a save. If not, it doesn't.

I suggest you remove the power to knock targets prone and leave the save out.