Artificer Armorer Clarification

[Rat Army]

I've started a campaign recently and I have a player who is an Artificer and is leaning towards the Armorer subclass. While discussing the subclass, it became apparent that we are interpreting some of the features very differently. We both are finding that some of these descriptions are quite vague, and I'm hoping you guys can help shed some light on our questions.

The first issue we ran into is that he is a Gnome. He feels that he should be able to buy Orc sized armor at a blacksmith and almost instantly, it should be able to fit him if he makes it into his Arcane Armor. I get that the book says he can make any armor Arcane in an instant, but I'd argue that the book never states that the armorer can change the shape and size of the armor set magically. I see it as he'd either have to get Gnome size armor made, find it, or forged it himself. I used the example that he could grab a chest plate made for an elephant, and it would fit him, essentially upon him touching it. He also thinks that the armor will also just immediately look like whatever he is thinking, again, I'm thinking he has to forge, find, or buy it. Is he right? Am I right? Are we both right? The vagueness is leaving it gray in our minds.

The second question comes from a line in the book, “It also expands to cover you entire body...” He argues that he should be able to find one plate glove, and that would just become an entire suit of plate armor. Instantly covering his chest, arms, legs and head. Now, it does say that, but is that really what they were going for? That seems crazy OP. Could he just find a steel jug, put it on his head, call it a helmet and have a full set of steel armor? Or does he have to part out the armor? Meaning forge or find each piece. Even he agrees that seems crazy, but the book does say, “cover your entire body.” Along with that, regrading the Armor Model, his gauntlets just...appear? Or is he applying either of the 2 magical affects to his current gauntlets?

This is more my question than his, going along with the, “It also expands to cover your entire body...” and the “The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces.” Now, I have no plan to sever any of my players limbs, I've never had it happen before; but sometimes things happen. If a player was to lose a foot in combat, would the armor immediately replace the limb? Or does this have to be forged, like Bucky's arm from The Avengers?

Sorry this is so long. It's my first time dealing with this subclass, multiple parts of it seem vaguely worded to us, and I want to get it right. If any of my questions are unclear, please ask for any clarification; I will gladly give it.

[Pyrophilios]

It's a fluff question mostly.
The author was clearly influenced by the iron man movies.
Now you have to decide if it's the Mark I that looked like a golem or one of the later nano machine based suits that can be carried basically invisible.

My opinion is: As long as he pays for a full plate he gets to wear his full plate. How it looks and if it has to be modified is entirely up to the player.
After all who but a magic armorer should have such ability?

[stoutstien]

Gear size is DMs call. PHB has a side bar about it at the beginning of armor section of pg 144 ish.

A suit of armor is required for arcane armor and they have descriptions in the same section. A gauntlet is not a suit of armor.

Final question is DM fiat. it could go about 4 different ways but in the end it will come up so seldomly you're better off just making a ruling then.

[Damon_Tor]

I've started a campaign recently and I have a player who is an Artificer and is leaning towards the Armorer subclass. While discussing the subclass, it became apparent that we are interpreting some of the features very differently. We both are finding that some of these descriptions are quite vague, and I'm hoping you guys can help shed some light on our questions.

The first issue we ran into is that he is a Gnome. He feels that he should be able to buy Orc sized armor at a blacksmith and almost instantly, it should be able to fit him if he makes it into his Arcane Armor. I get that the book says he can make any armor Arcane in an instant, but I'd argue that the book never states that the armorer can change the shape and size of the armor set magically. I see it as he'd either have to get Gnome size armor made, find it, or forged it himself. I used the example that he could grab a chest plate made for an elephant, and it would fit him, essentially upon him touching it. He also thinks that the armor will also just immediately look like whatever he is thinking, again, I'm thinking he has to forge, find, or buy it. Is he right? Am I right? Are we both right? The vagueness is leaving it gray in our minds.

The second question comes from a line in the book, “It also expands to cover you entire body...” He argues that he should be able to find one plate glove, and that would just become an entire suit of plate armor. Instantly covering his chest, arms, legs and head. Now, it does say that, but is that really what they were going for? That seems crazy OP. Could he just find a steel jug, put it on his head, call it a helmet and have a full set of steel armor? Or does he have to part out the armor? Meaning forge or find each piece. Even he agrees that seems crazy, but the book does say, “cover your entire body.” Along with that, regrading the Armor Model, his gauntlets just...appear? Or is he applying either of the 2 magical affects to his current gauntlets?

This is more my question than his, going along with the, “It also expands to cover your entire body...” and the “The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces.” Now, I have no plan to sever any of my players limbs, I've never had it happen before; but sometimes things happen. If a player was to lose a foot in combat, would the armor immediately replace the limb? Or does this have to be forged, like Bucky's arm from The Avengers?

Sorry this is so long. It's my first time dealing with this subclass, multiple parts of it seem vaguely worded to us, and I want to get it right. If any of my questions are unclear, please ask for any clarification; I will gladly give it.

How much downtime/money would you require for a battlesmith to build his Steel Defender, or an artillarist for his cannons?

The armorer subclass doesn't work if you don't allow him to make his mageplate. Is it really hard to imagine that he can source some small-sized armor? Maybe the orc blacksmith has a set of goblin-made half-plate he was planning on melting down that he can sell him for a bargain or something.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

"A magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build." (From the DMG)

They are essentially turning the plate mail into Magic plate mail, and it can then magically adjust itself to fit as the vast majority of other magical suits of armor can. The DMG mentions that exceptions exist but I'd ask you to sit down and think about what is really gained from telling the Gnome "No, you can't have your class-defining armor here because it only comes in a size Large"? Is there really a story or mechanical benefit to this? I would recommend just letting the gnome have their armor (as long as they find a set or buy it properly, just ignore the size differential) and have fun with the specific class fantasy they're signing up for rather than penalizing them for picking a smaller race.

[Millstone85]

The first issue we ran into is that he is a Gnome. He feels that he should be able to buy Orc sized armor at a blacksmith and almost instantly, it should be able to fit him if he makes it into his Arcane Armor.
"A magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build." (From the DMG)

They are essentially turning the plate mail into Magic plate mail, and it can then magically adjust itself to fit as the vast majority of other magical suits of armor can.However, Arcane Armor is applied to "a suit of armor you are wearing", meaning the plate mail would have to already fit him before the feature can make it magical.

Now, this is easily solved by first applying an infusion like Enhanced Defense to the unworn armor.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

However, Arcane Armor is applied to "a suit of armor you are wearing", meaning the plate mail would have to already fit him before the feature can make it magical.

Now, this is easily solved by first applying an infusion like Enhanced Defense to the unworn armor.

Ah, good catch!

I do think ultimately even completely divorced of the magic item rules though, there's absolutely zero harm in allowing a player to have the armor that makes their entire Armorer gimmick work. Just rule that they're riding the Orc armor around like a mech suit if you are super worried about Verisimilitude. There's no part of "Gnome can wear the same armor as anyone else could" that is overpowered. Ruling that a single gauntlet works is a little silly, unless that gauntlet happens to cost 1,500 GP, or came from a foe wearing plate mail and any other character could have picked up and worn that plate anyway. But even if you just gave them plate mail though I wouldn't really call that "overpowered" as you do, an armorer having access to plate mail is basically one of the major features of the subclass in the first place, keeping the better armor from them is really just sending the message "you picked the wrong subclass for this campaign, sorry", they're meant to have high AC.

I personally would try to make sure they have access to plate mail around level 5-6 (Some say 7 is the magic number, but I feel it's a little rough to wait that long to actually be any better than medium armor) depending on their choices and whether they amass the money/go after foes that may have plate mail, regardless of the size differential. If you tell the player, sorry, they don't make it in your size here, maybe somewhere else, they can't really go get it: they're stuck with the party and it's unlikely a party will be willing to divert to a gnomish encampment or something just on the possibility of finding slightly better armor for one member of the party. The player is just going to be bummed out they can't use a major part of their subclass because they picked the "wrong" race and that they are being penalized for not being a human or half orc or whatever.

[Dark.Revenant]

Ah, good catch!

I do think ultimately even completely divorced of the magic item rules though, there's absolutely zero harm in allowing a player to have the armor that makes their entire Armorer gimmick work. Just rule that they're riding the Orc armor around like a mech suit if you are super worried about Verisimilitude. There's no part of "Gnome can wear the same armor as anyone else could" that is overpowered. Ruling that a single gauntlet works is a little silly, unless that gauntlet happens to cost 1,500 GP, or came from a foe wearing plate mail and any other character could have picked up and worn that plate anyway. But even if you just gave them plate mail though I wouldn't really call that "overpowered" as you do, an armorer having access to plate mail is basically one of the major features of the subclass in the first place, keeping the better armor from them is really just sending the message "you picked the wrong subclass for this campaign, sorry", they're meant to have high AC.

I personally would try to make sure they have access to plate mail around level 5-6 (Some say 7 is the magic number, but I feel it's a little rough to wait that long to actually be any better than medium armor) depending on their choices and whether they amass the money/go after foes that may have plate mail, regardless of the size differential. If you tell the player, sorry, they don't make it in your size here, maybe somewhere else, they can't really go get it: they're stuck with the party and it's unlikely a party will be willing to divert to a gnomish encampment or something just on the possibility of finding slightly better armor for one member of the party. The player is just going to be bummed out they can't use a major part of their subclass because they picked the "wrong" race and that they are being penalized for not being a human or half orc or whatever.

You can use the Armorer subclass abilities on the suit of armor that comes with the class as starting equipment. I wouldn't say access to full plate is a "major part" of the subclass, considering it's just one of many features gained at level 3. Nor would it be a unique hurdle for the Armorer anymore than a Fighter, War Cleric, Paladin, etc. in the same circumstances.

At the end of the day, every Armorer can just *make* their own armor. You're given the requisite tool proficiency outright. Yeah, it takes 30 weeks of downtime (down to a minimum of 8 weeks with assistants), but at 13th level you can just cast Fabricate and be done with it. Most DMs allow taking some time to modify an existing set, especially given the Smith's Tools proficiency and the ability to just conjure your tools out of thin air.

Full plate is never guaranteed. I've personally only very rarely seen it awarded to any party member before 7th level, and even for rather wealthy party members the sheer inconvenience of acquiring it delays things even further. On average, I see 9th level as a more realistic "expectation", but even that is only just an average. The party could be into tier 3 before the last heavy-armor-user finally gets their plate.

[Theodoxus]

but at 13th level you can just cast Fabricate and be done with it.


Art: "yes! We've finally hit 13th level, mates. I get to create my full plate using Fabricate!"

DM: "Congrats, Art! and now that you've hit the pinnacle of your AC, this boss fight will determine the end of the campaign! Let's go!"

Art: ...

[Dark.Revenant]

Art: "yes! We've finally hit 13th level, mates. I get to create my full plate using Fabricate!"

DM: "Congrats, Art! and now that you've hit the pinnacle of your AC, this boss fight will determine the end of the campaign! Let's go!"

Art: ...

The Fighter, Paladin, and War Cleric, clad only in their plain-Jane chainmail, stare at the plated Artificer with envy.

In all seriousness, pretty much the only characters (ignoring Mark of Making) who can reasonably guarantee full plate by 7th level are a Forge Cleric, or a Mountain Dwarf Wizard (or Clockwork Soul, I guess) with Heavily Armored as their 4th level ASI. Multiclasses involving Wizard or Clockwork Soul can potentially do it by 8th level, as long as they have 7 levels in the casting class. Artificer can do it by 13th. Eldritch Knight can technically do it by 19th, but probably won't. Everyone else? You're at the mercy of the DM.

[Lunali]

Since any magical armor can resize within reason, I wouldn't worry too much about the size of the armor.

As for the completeness, the armor has to be worn to be turned into arcane armor. I would say that any incomplete set should grant the AC you would have given it before being enchanted. For a somewhat reasonable example, say the character managed to obtain just the chest piece for a suit of full plate. If it were any other character, I would let them treat it as a breastplate, or if they found the full upper body instead, as half plate. If the artificer used their ability on such a piece, it would become full body protection with the effective stats of a breastplate or half plate. Normally if a character found a single plate glove, I wouldn't grant them any AC for it so at best the artificer would get a full body suit that provided AC 10+dex.

[Mercurias]

If the character is going to be an artificer, he's going to get the proficiency in smithing. Why wouldn't he just take the much-more-than-adequate material in the orc plate and then take x hours to resize it and use the leftover leather and metal to craft whatever sorts of filigree, springs, sprockets, and gears that the armor needs in order to become its best self.

As far as the fluff goes, if I were the DM then I would rule that a suit of armor that had already been given the Armorer treatment could be compressed via a specific combination of enchantment and artifice enough to fold/collapse into a gauntlet, but that one would need a full suit of properly-fitting plate before that particular mechanic worked (i.e., the point of that mechanic is to make the existing armor easy to remove or concealable, not let the player create a new suit of armor from a glove).

[Theodoxus]

That's interesting. So, you'd be ok with the don/doff feature of the arcane armor to collapse into something like the Infinity Gauntlet?

Makes it more thematic than what I always pictured, a pile of 'xploded Iron Man bits for doffed armor and those self-same bits flying up and surrounding the ArmArt ala Jim the Trollhunter.

[Rat Army]

Thank you all so much. This has been truly helpful and I can definitely use this information to make a decision. Hopefully making my player happy...without giving him everything he wants. :smallbiggrin: