OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[vonBoomslang]

Yikes, here comes surly and unpleasant Durkon with his patented turn the issue around on Roy. Again. Nice callback (?) to Origin of PCs.

[Lord Torath]

"Pract'cally Divine." :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, Rich!

Edit:
This is a bit of a late notice, but if by some chance you read this again Rich, Durkon says both 'aboot' and 'about' in his third thought balloon in panel 6.

[Dragonus45]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

[vonBoomslang]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is. You're right, it's not like they're, wait, what was it called? Oh yeah, Lawful Good.

[Pablo360]

You have to admit, Roy, he's got you pegged.

It feels like it's been a while since we've explored this particular facet Durkon and Roy's dynamic, showing that Roy doesn't have a monopoly on sardonic reproach. Durkon gets it from his mother, I think, though she delivers hers with a wry grin instead of not-mad-just-disappointed stoicism. I'm not sure which cuts deeper.

[Ionathus]

Beautifully said, Durkon.

"Getting the Diagnosis right doesn't mean you got the Treatment right" is such a great way to sum up the situation.

The way he's matured and learned to assert himself is so cool to see. And the way he puts things is so straightforward yet eloquent, I wouldn't be surprised if he finds his calling in a leadership role after this story.

I'm really loving this arc, Giant. Keep up the amazing work!

[RMS Oceanic]

To err is divine, I guess. :smallsmile:

[understatement]

Roy is hilarious here. And I love these callbacks!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sometimes, people won't pay any attention to a problem until the people dying because of it threaten to unleash a god-destroying abomination into the heavens. Here's hoping the Order finds a way to follow through on noticing the problem...



You're right, it's not like they're, wait, what was it called? Oh yeah, Lawful Good.
You shouldn't have to be LG to feel bad about killing people without stopping to wonder why they're doing what they're doing.
Roy and Durkon aren't just realizing they never asked—they realized they never even thought about asking.

[Schroeswald]

A lovely comic, humor, plot, thematic relevance, it has it all, and now I’m sure this discussion thread isn’t going to get ugly like the last one.

[link3710]

Yeaaaah, the only goblins they ever spoke to were grumpy teenagers. Which probably want the best source of information.

[Worldsong]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

I don't think the idea is that when you keep fighting the same villain over and over again you need to question their motives and try to work out a peaceful solution every single time.

But trying it at least once would be recommended if you're Good-aligned.

[Yarrun]

I feel like, at this point, the Giant could probably make a decent buck off of 'Redcloak was right' t-shirts, along the lines of the Magneto/Cyclops was right meme in the Marvel Universe

[Kaed]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

Sure. It's much easier to claim self defense and kill the person attacking you than to discover why they are attacking you and begin work to try and heal the complex psychological, political, and/or socioeconomic circumstances that lead them to make the decision that they had to attack you.

But that doesn't make it more right to kill them and walk away feeling self justified in your defensive strategy, nor does it solve anything about the situation other than your immediate personal safety and the potential safety of others that might have been attacked by that specific person.

[Gift Jeraff]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

[Yakk]

Durkon's point is that they treated Goblins as low-threat XP sources. When massed, they treated them as high-threat XP sources.

In fact, I think Durkon's attempt was the first time they tried to negotiate with Red Cloak, at least seriously.

Imagine a flip. Replace every single Goblin and Hobgoblin with a Human. They are a marginalized people who where hunted and killed, who have started organizing. Some of them are working with a lich as part of this fight against the generations of genocide against their people; the lich treats them like ****, but gives them a slim chance against the super weapons of the enemy (like, literal god-tier magic, such as the sapphire guard's resurrection stuff). Only by being united, brave and strong can they stand up against being eradicated from the planet.

Their enemies would rather the world be destroyed than they win and take their place secure from genocide, quite literally, as they destroy the cages that keep the world intact rather than let them harness the power. So they strive, sacrifice and fight for the lives of their children and kin.

[Ruck]

Hee hee, some good levity here while still approaching the main subject with appropriate seriousness.

I do think it's interesting, having been reading some old comics lately, how little Roy probably even considered Redcloak's importance in the whole scheme or what his plan really is (until, presumably, whatever Durkon told him that Thor told him).

[hamishspence]

It's a good conversation. Some of the events in Origin of PCs might spring to mind here - Roy was somewhat better about "seeing the adversary's point of view" there.

[Worldsong]

You shouldn't have to be LG to feel bad about killing people without stopping to wonder why they're doing what they're doing.
Roy and Durkon aren't just realizing they never asked—they realized they never even thought about asking.

You don't need to be Lawful Good, just Good.

And I will playfully slap the first person to argue that Chaotic Good is an excuse to be a murderhobo.

[hroþila]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.
I don't think that's what they're really saying, if you get to the bottom of it. It's that Roy realizes he's never bothered looking beyond that. It's never even occurred to him. For example, we know for a fact at least some of the goblins serving under Xykon at the Dungeon of Dorukan did so under duress, and some surrendered and were killed by Belkar. Did Roy know that? Apparently not, because he didn't care enough about their lives and dignity. Coup de grace comes to mind.

Roy is much better than most in this regard, almost up there with O-Chul. But this is a real shortcoming of his, and it's to his credit that he's acknowledging it now.

[MoiMagnus]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

I think the criticize here is not that they fought for their life as a default behaviour. It's that they not even once ask the goblinoids. It is that they never even wondered why.

The OOTS won a lot of their battles, I think it's fair to consider that at least once, they had the opportunity to make a prisoner, and ask them why they are following Xykon, or seek for goblinoids factions would be interested in being part of the good guys.

[Ornithologist]

So,

uh..

Turn's out Durkon's a solid moral center.


This is probably best relegated to the epilogue, but He should spend some time with V.

[TuringTest]

I giggled at Roy's "It's out of my system now" :smallbiggrin: And I sympathize with how he needed that small outburst of emotion to become rational and efficient again.

Am I the only one to think that Durkon's realization about the ultimate injustice to the goblins gives the Order a strategic advantage? Before, their only option to try and convince Redcloak was to threaten with the world's destruction. Now, they can actually *negotiate* with something that Redcloak cares about, namely acting as ambassadors to the gods to come to an agreement for improvement (e.g. a goblins vs other races non-aggression pact in this world, and eventually improved conditions in the next).

Also, Durkon's punchline! :smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

[RochtheCrusher]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

"Every time" is unreasonable.

"Even one time" is not unreasonable.

Roy and Durkon are coming to grips with the fact that they didn't try as hard to understand goblinoids as they did with human bandits, or dwarven bombers, or insane human paladins, or psychopathic twins who'd already tried to kill them half a dozen times, or even Xykon. Roy KNOWS why Xykon killed his father's master, because he bothered to ask.

I don't know that either one should have fallen for this, had they been paladins, but taking a beat to let that sink in, rather than brushing it off reflexively, is probably appropriate.

What defines being Lawful Good is that you try to improve your record.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[dancrilis]

Hmm, dubious about this direction but lets see where it goes.

[Dragonus45]

Imagine a flip.

I don't have to imagine it, I just have to look over at the goblins in How the Paladin Got His Scar. They were well past being plucky underdogs given a bad hand and were a functional nation just as ready and willing to perpetuate war as their neighbors.

[Aisper]

"If there's one thing anyone could say about Roy Greenhilt, it's that he's never managed to fight and talk at the same time."

This may be the most accurate dunk anyone has ever made on Roy.

(Dwarven accent removed for ease of reading)

[Worldsong]

What interests me now is whether Durkon has changed his mind about whether the gods should be involved in the solution, or if he still believes that it's up to the mortals to clean up this mess.

On one hand, his faith in the gods has just taken a pretty harsh beating. On the other, this new information could be an argument that unless this problem is addressed at the divine level, anything done by mortals might be nothing more than a short-term solution.

[Shale]

What interests me now is whether Durkon has changed his mind about whether the gods should be involved in the solution, or if he still believes that it's up to the mortals to clean up this mess.

On one hand, his faith in the gods has just taken a pretty harsh beating. On the other, this new information could be an argument that unless this problem is addressed at the divine level, anything done by mortals might be nothing more than a short-term solution.

On the other hand, he knows better than any other mortal alive right now the difference between "the gods should" and "the gods can."

[Fyraltari]

Durkon is just the best.

There's a typo in panel 1, Roy says "wether or rot".

Edit: wait, no, I just can't read.

[Roselily2006]

I haven't read any of the thread so far before replying, but I'm sure it's just going to be filled with happiness and agreements and love.
(On a serious note, this should be fun. *grabs popcorn*)

[Dragonus45]

What interests me now is whether Durkon has changed his mind about whether the gods should be involved in the solution, or if he still believes that it's up to the mortals to clean up this mess.

On one hand, his faith in the gods has just taken a pretty harsh beating. On the other, this new information could be an argument that unless this problem is addressed at the divine level, anything done by mortals might be nothing more than a short-term solution.

A divine solution is flatly impossible, there is no perfect solution going to come down from on high to provide perfect equity of outcome to everyone because the gods have literally tied their own hands. The mortals getting it done is the only option left, whether it's short term or not.

[Trixie_One]

This may be the most accurate dunk anyone has ever made on Roy.

Yeah, that's just a beautiful taking apart of another character to make a point. Really well done.

[Jason]

To be fair to Roy, it's been a long time since he's fought any actual goblins. When was the last time - Azure City? Maybe even Dorukan's dungeon, if you don't count hobgoblins?
Roy was focused on Xykon as his enemy, and he knew Xykon didn't have any legitimate cause to be doing what he was doing. It's a mistake to have never thought of trying figure out why the goblins were following his orders, but an understandable one.

I will also note that there is a difference between "wronged from neglect" and "wronged from malice": it's much easier to get those in power on your side if they've been neglectful rather than if they actively hate and want to hurt you.

[Fyraltari]

The way he's matured and learned to assert himself is so cool to see. And the way he puts things is so straightforward yet eloquent, I wouldn't be surprised if he finds his calling in a leadership role after this story.
Calling it now: Durkon Thundershield, High Priest of Thor.

I feel like, at this point, the Giant could probably make a decent buck off of 'Redcloak was right' t-shirts, along the lines of the Magneto/Cyclops was right meme in the Marvel Universe

https://s2.qwant.com/thumbr/0x380/5/8/2e7b4a1b3502e46e74e4390d32708eba355b1b1a7630ed79dd 8ab9c508447d/aae3ec662dc3183c986c34df7f65d8baf84ca6e02f02423c38 5326595c7da31e_1.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.ifcdn.com %2Fimages%2Faae3ec662dc3183c986c34df7f65d8baf84ca6 e02f02423c385326595c7da31e_1.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

[Metastachydium]

"I think Redcloak is right" (with his diagnosis).
Boom! Headshot! Well argued, Durkon, weel argued!


You don't need to be Lawful Good, just Good.

And I will playfully slap the first person to argue that Chaotic Good is an excuse to be a murderhobo.

Well, it's not like Chaotic Good folks are actually Good. They just rationalize their antics through relativising the Moral/Ethical Norms and Rules they refuse to abide by.

[Ionathus]

Calling it now: Durkon Thundershield, High Priest of Thor.

Heck, at the rate he's calling Thor out, I wouldn't rule out "Thor Odinsson, High Priest of Durkon."

[Worldsong]

Well, it's not like Chaotic Good folks are actually Good. They just rationalize their antics through relativising the Moral/Ethical Norms and Rules they refuse to abide by.

That's it, I'm priming the Hand of Slapping.

[Ruck]

I don't have to imagine it, I just have to look over at the goblins in How the Paladin Got His Scar. They were well past being plucky underdogs given a bad hand and were a functional nation just as ready and willing to perpetuate war as their neighbors.

Given the actual outcome of that story, "they" is a very broad brush for "ready and willing to perpetuate war."

[137beth]

I'm really enjoying where this conversation is going. I've been waiting for well over a decade to see how Roy would react when he found out the truth about goblins.

[dancrilis]

Roy was focused on Xykon as his enemy, and he knew Xykon didn't have any legitimate cause to be doing what he was doing. It's a mistake to have never thought of trying figure out why the goblins were following his orders, but an understandable one.


All he knows is that Xykon wouldn't mind ruling the world and has no intention of destroying it - he has no idea why Xykon wants to rule the world any more then why the Goblins want to help him do it.

[BriarHobbit]

Nothing like a little crisis of faith/philosophical discussion before the big fight. Hopefully, it will eventually become clear why Durkon feels the need to have this discussion with Roy now. The Order is soon going to be in a fight for their lives (or memories).

[Dragonus45]

Given the actual outcome of that story, "they" is a very broad brush for "ready and willing to perpetuate war."

It's an appropriately broad one, it took a few independent actors from either side to break the momentum heading towards a war that both governments, or at at least the highest ranking representative of such in the room in the case of the Saphire Guard since technically they were operating rogue, were more then willing to get into. Because regardless of having a rough start or not they had reached rough parity, if also a state at least cold war with, pretty much everyone around them even if they did have a "rougher" start. A nation where "they" were just as happy to try and kill humans on sight as humans were them.

[Jason]

Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

[locksmith of lo]

he's nev'r manag'd ta fight 'nd talk at tha same time

oh man! he's got you there, roy! :smallbiggrin:

[Ionathus]

It's an appropriately broad one, it took a few independent actors from either side to break the momentum heading towards a war that both governments, or at at least the highest ranking representative of such in the room in the case of the Saphire Guard since technically they were operating rogue, were more then willing to get into. Because regardless of having a rough start or not they had reached rough parity, if also a state at least cold war with, pretty much everyone around them even if they did have a "rougher" start. A nation where "they" were just as happy to try and kill humans on sight as humans were them.

Out of all the developed hobgoblins we meet in GDGU, the majority do not want a war. I'm sure many at the fortress did, but it's just as possible that the original Supreme Leader was in the minority in that regard.

ninja edit:

Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

Why is this such a persistent complaint? Of course the most developed villain isn't going to outright accept a peace offer the first time the heroes interact with him. You do it at the start of the story arc so that seed of doubt is planted and the concept is allowed to grow in everyone's (both characters and audience) minds. Had Redcloak accepted right away, we wouldn't have had this conversation between Durkon & Thor, and then Durkon & Roy.

[Bookshelfstud]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

Yeah I think this is really important. I'm expecting Serini to be invisible around them before she attacks, and if she overheard this conversation she might be much more willing to work with them, given her monstrous sympathies.

[Worldsong]

Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

True, but that doesn't excuse Roy never even thinking about figuring out why all the goblins are doing this. It just means that Redcloak, as an individual, is an ass (and has earned his Evil alignment instead of just being assigned it because race) and Durkon was unlucky that his attempt at doing the right thing had him walking up to the most volatile and dangerous of all the goblins.

[jidasfire]

To be fair to Roy, I don't get the impression he's the type who would hunt goblins for XP. That's more Belkar's bag. Roy's proven more than once that he does prefer reasonable solutions to violent ones if they're available. I would say such solutions would have been impossible during the Battle of Azure City, for example, but he could certainly have tried harder in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Most of those goblins were enslaved by Xykon and may have actually rebelled if given the chance.

Still, it's good that he's actually showing some humility here and realizing he was wrong not to try. Just like in real life, sometimes even well-intentioned people can be blind to the iniquities of their society until confronted with them, and what matters is if and how they correct. I think Roy will learn the right lessons here, though as to how that will be applied is anyone's guess.

[Fyraltari]

So why are they having this conversation telepathically? I don't see why it would be private or why Roy wouldn't be there if they talked?

[Emberlily]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

Oh, yeah. I was wondering why the comic spent a panel just emphasizing that they were going to be talking privately and that's probably the exact reason, isn't it.

Like, it makes sense, since in the past Roy has had these sorts of conversations one on one (like with V) and the comic would be even more word-dense if we got interjections from everyone else, but...

Sereni's conflict with the Order being built even further on "if only they knew what the other knew" makes it even more juicy I guess!

[Yarrun]

So why are they having this conversation telepathically? I don't see why it would be private or why Roy wouldn't be there if they talked?

If they wanted to have a private conversation without telepathy, they'd have to move away from the rest of the group, away from the entrance, deeper into the tunnels.

This means Xykon might return when they're not ready to ambush him. Also leaves them vulnerable to ambush by anything hiding in the tunnels.

[White_Mouse]

Speaking of hands, Roy's hand in first panel got disconnected from his armour sleeve.

[Ionathus]

Possibly Durkon doesn't want to potentially call out Roy in front of the rest of the team, but mostly I think it's a matter of "don't make noise if we don't have to."

[elros]

Now that the Giant (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) has declared that the Goblins are right, the question is what is the correct "treatment" to help the Goblins. Thor admitted that the world is a limited ecosystem, so there are not enough resources for every species to have everything they want. I suspect The Giant will either make it so:
the Snarl and the rifts are really a portal to limitless worlds, and everyone will be able to get what they want (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina), or the Snarl or Xykon will be such a threat that everyone unifies to fight against him. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenghisGambit)

[Jason]

Possibly Durkon doesn't want to potentially call out Roy in front of the rest of the team, but mostly I think it's a matter of "don't make noise if we don't have to."
Mostly it's "so the invisible Serini lurking nearby won't overhear their discussion and realize that Roy is a reasonable person she should ally with before she attacks them in the next comic."

[blackshadow111]

Well, this is silly. Of course there was a reason, the reason was that Fenrir spent all their chargen points on their unique abilities, growing fast and breeding large numbers. He figured it would let them make up the difference in assets.

He was wrong, is all.

[Thermophille]

This all is making me think of the campaign I'm running right now.

For generations, goblins have lived on the fringes of society, stealing food to maintain their underground burrows beyond human borders, in unfarmable lands.

Seeing the goblins as pests, there's been a modest bounty on goblins (5sp each) as long as anyone can remember.

Eventually, the goblins start to attack humans in force, with the end goal of intimidating them enough to get them to give up enough land that the goblins can farm food without being killed.

Of course, the duke of the area isn't being honest about that part, and everyone thinks that the goblins are mindless monsters.


It's not as nuanced as this, but this campaign has been going since August.

[Ionathus]

Well, this is silly. Of course there was a reason, the reason was that Fenrir spent all their chargen points on their unique abilities, growing fast and breeding large numbers. He figured it would let them make up the difference in assets.

He was wrong, is all.

And I'm sure knowing that their creator messed up, and nobody else stepped in to help, will be a tremendous comfort for the goblins.

[Fyraltari]

Well, this is silly. Of course there was a reason, the reason was that Fenrir spent all their chargen points on their unique abilities, growing fast and breeding large numbers. He figured it would let them make up the difference in assets.

He was wrong, is all.

Yeah, but there was no reason for them to start with poorer lands than the humans or dwarves.

[Segev]

I don't think Roy's "realization" near the end of today's comic is a fair one. Nor is Durkon's comparison to "fighting a vampire while talking to him."

There's a big difference between believing that the person you've known well for a long time might have motives or behaviors that are not "his" driving him to fight you, and believing that every random creature who attacks you will screaming for your blood is somebody you might be able to talk down.

I sincerely doubt that nobody has ever asked a goblin why he was attacking - if only when the goblins had innocent dirt farmers pinned to the ground and were killing them or torturing them for fun - but the goblins also don't tend to think like Redcloak does. They don't do the whole "because we're starving" explanation - they gloat about how they're stronger, or about how it's "because we can," or don't bother answering.

Now, this is a fantasy setting, so the "crappy lands" the goblinoids live in might be magically useless, not just not-as-easy as the lands the others got, but nothing kept them from moving elsewhere peaceably. Goblins keep making bad choices, too.

That doesn't mean the treatment for this ailment is not to try to, well, treat with them. Offer them freer access to nicer lands, offer to trade with them, offer to interact peaceably if they'll interact peaceably. The trouble with blaming it all on "not asking them" is that it's entirely unreasonable to expect that somebody who is being actively attacked to try to patiently talk down the attacker - repeatedly - until the attacker might deign to give an explanation and then listen to the one he's attacking reason with him.

Roy's whole party would be dead much more often (and probably not in a position to be raised) if they'd tried that with a number of the monsters they've faced.

Heck, Redcloak himself proved how dangerous, stupid, and unlikely to work that is when he cast implosion on Durkon, who was explicitly trying to hear Redcloak's side of the story and offer some sort of bargain.

[JonahFalcon]

Well, Durkon certainly used Thor's "no, but you did" tactic on Roy.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

[Cicciograna]

The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse. It took Durkon a long conversation with a high cleric of the opposite faction, and some discussion with his own god, to start having an understanding of how and why the goblins have been screwed...and yet, Roy seems to be grasping the various implications on the matter in, like, three or four panels.

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

Although I fully realize that this is just for the matter of comic exposition, to avoid repeating arguments that have already been presented. I guess I spent too much (or not enough) time with the blond guy with the puppet. Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

[isamaru]

OotS: From lighthearted D&D parody to serious social commentary in 1232 little steps.

I still love it!
It's just remarkable how far we've come and grown since the start, this strip really drives that home for me. And by "we" I mean the characters, Rich and me, the reader. I was 16 when I started reading, now I'm double that age. I wonder if my young self would have been able to appreciate this as much I do.

[Thermophille]

Yeah, but there was no reason for them to start with poorer lands than the humans or dwarves.

Personally, I don't think that's a huge part of why the goblins are disadvantaged; if that's all there was to it, I don't think the situation would have gotten nearly this bad.

Far worse is goblin's naturally violent tendencies, making them less likely to cooperate, and more likely to wage war even when they do. That, along with their explosive population growth, put them at odds with everyone else, starting the cycle that has continued until now.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

[...]

Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

Maybe there were history/geography lessons in Fighter College and it's just dawned on him that the gobbos have always lived on ****ty lands
Edit:

Far worse is goblin's naturally violent tendencies

The what now?

[Ionathus]

There's a big difference between believing that the person you've known well for a long time might have motives or behaviors that are not "his" driving him to fight you, and believing that every random creature who attacks you will screaming for your blood is somebody you might be able to talk down.

I sincerely doubt that nobody has ever asked a goblin why he was attacking - if only when the goblins had innocent dirt farmers pinned to the ground and were killing them or torturing them for fun - but the goblins also don't tend to think like Redcloak does. They don't do the whole "because we're starving" explanation - they gloat about how they're stronger, or about how it's "because we can," or don't bother answering.

Now, this is a fantasy setting, so the "crappy lands" the goblinoids live in might be magically useless, not just not-as-easy as the lands the others got, but nothing kept them from moving elsewhere peaceably. Goblins keep making bad choices, too.

That doesn't mean the treatment for this ailment is not to try to, well, treat with them. Offer them freer access to nicer lands, offer to trade with them, offer to interact peaceably if they'll interact peaceably. The trouble with blaming it all on "not asking them" is that it's entirely unreasonable to expect that somebody who is being actively attacked to try to patiently talk down the attacker - repeatedly - until the attacker might deign to give an explanation and then listen to the one he's attacking reason with him.

Roy's whole party would be dead much more often (and probably not in a position to be raised) if they'd tried that with a number of the monsters they've faced.

Heck, Redcloak himself proved how dangerous, stupid, and unlikely to work that is when he cast implosion on Durkon, who was explicitly trying to hear Redcloak's side of the story and offer some sort of bargain.

I think the point is that they never even tried. In OtOoPCs, Roy and Durkon encountered orcs in a fight and immediately started talking, and ultimately parlayed with them. In D&D, just because someone's attacking you doesn't mean you can't have a conversation while defending yourself. Talking is a free action, after


The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse. It took Durkon a long conversation with a high cleric of the opposite faction, and some discussion with his own god, to start having an understanding of how and why the goblins have been screwed...and yet, Roy seems to be grasping the various implications on the matter in, like, three or four panels.

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

Although I fully realize that this is just for the matter of comic exposition, to avoid repeating arguments that have already been presented. I guess I spent too much (or not enough) time with the blond guy with the puppet. Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

Emphasis mine. That's my guess, too -- even though Roy never had discussed this with anybody, maybe he'd subconsciously noticed "hey, the only goblinoid settlements are in really desolate areas...I wonder why..." and didn't take it any further until now.

I'd also argue that Durkon's conversation with Redcloak was much more societal and world-spanning, while Durkon's conversation with Roy was just "hey, the goblins might have a point...and we've never bothered to ask them." It's about Roy's personal behavior rather than society at large, so it makes sense that it'll be more terse.


Personally, I don't think that's a huge part of why the goblins are disadvantaged; if that's all there was to it, I don't think the situation would have gotten nearly this bad.

As anyone who's played Age of Empires can tell you, a small numbers/resources disadvantage can quickly snowball into a crushing defeat.

[Taevyr]

That's it, I'm priming the Hand of Slapping.

:vaarsuvius: Bugsby's Sense-Inducing Hand!

[Thermophille]

The what now?

They were literally created as part of a zerg rush strategy. And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

[Emberlily]

Personally, I don't think that's a huge part of why the goblins are disadvantaged; if that's all there was to it, I don't think the situation would have gotten nearly this bad.

Far worse is goblin's naturally violent tendencies, making them less likely to cooperate, and more likely to wage war even when they do. That, along with their explosive population growth, put them at odds with everyone else, starting the cycle that has continued until now.

Even ignoring the arguments that people in this forum have made against the line of thought that goblins only are in a bad place because they're bad people, do you really think that's what the Giant is trying to convey with the story at this point? Especially after how Durkon and Roy (our heroes and two wise, good people) talked about it?

[JonahFalcon]

The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse.

Gee, it's like Durkon never completely explains situations to others.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1211.html

[Skull the Troll]

Yeah, but there was no reason for them to start with poorer lands than the humans or dwarves.

There's no reason to think so far that they did start with poorer lands. It was a couple thousand years ago, the Western continent shuffles up every few years. Even Azurite City is only lasted a few decades. They started out with less ability to grow wealth, and a non-cooperative mindset (usually evil alignment) and they ended up losing those first wars for the good lands. Since then the cycle of poverty has continued. That doesn't mean that good races shouldn't give them a chance to do better, but what it would take is an alignment shift by an entire race of usually evil beings to become good/neutral.


Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

Exactly. Its going to be hard for slavers to suddenly start respecting peoples rights, even if they start being treated more fairly themselves. Even in our world of mostly good people people we have wars over resources and groups of folks that have poor lands.

[Thermophille]

Even ignoring the arguments that people in this forum have made against the line of thought that goblins only are in a bad place because they're bad people, do you really think that's what the Giant is trying to convey with the story at this point? Especially after how Durkon and Roy (our heroes and two wise, good people) talked about it?

Where did I say they're bad/evil for that? If you're trying to draw a real-world parallel, sure, something like natural inclinations rings more of real-world racism, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I'm just making the point that I don't think the present situation came about solely from goblins spawning on difficult to farm land.

[JonahFalcon]

I wonder if they're setting up a How to Train Your Dragons 2 situation here.

Hiccup learned the hard way that some people, like Drago Bludvist, are too broken to listen to the peaceful solution. Redcloak may be too broken to save or negotiate with.

[Wildstag]

Well, in Roy's defense, it's hard to hold a conversation with someone that dies before their second sentence comes out. He's never really fought a goblin strong enough to last through an entire conversation that wasn't being overshadowed by Xykon's presence.

He can hold conversations with others because they live long enough for a retort. If he wanted replies, he'd actually have to intentionally miss (play-fight) just to get answers.

[Fyraltari]

They were literally created as part of a zerg rush strategy.
So?

And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.
I recommend How the Paladin got his Scar, it's an excellent read and the high point of Good Deeds gone unpunished which is already a great book. In it you'll see two low class hobgoblins who have absolutely no combat ability whatsoever.

[Taevyr]

They were literally created as part of a zerg rush strategy. And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

Not unreasonable as a working hypothesis, perhaps, but there's nothing in-comic to support it as a reasonable conclusion. Especially taking the hobbo's in How the Paladin Got His Scar into account.

[hroþila]

And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.
We saw hobgoblin non-combatants in HtPGHS. No reason to assume they had any more combat training than the average human commoner.

edit: ninja'd

[Ivrytwr]

Crisis of faith achievement unlocked! Order of the Stick you are cleared to go into battle with questionable motivation.

Always a good time to start thinking, when the other guy is coming at you with an axe.

Great counterpoint Durkon.
Thanks Giant!

[PH7]

To be fair to Roy, from his perspective the goblins aren't (weren't?) working for Redcloak. They were working for Xykon.
Heck, as far back as strip 13, he'd give an angry glare to anyone suggesting they kill sentient creatures just because they have green skin and fangs...

[Jason]

The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse. It took Durkon a long conversation with a high cleric of the opposite faction, and some discussion with his own god, to start having an understanding of how and why the goblins have been screwed...and yet, Roy seems to be grasping the various implications on the matter in, like, three or four panels.

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

Although I fully realize that this is just for the matter of comic exposition, to avoid repeating arguments that have already been presented. I guess I spent too much (or not enough) time with the blond guy with the puppet. Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

Thor's and Roy's "well yeah, when you think about it the goblins really are living on the worst land," reaction is the strongest confirmation we've ever had in the comic that there really is something to Redcloak's "everyone else got the good land" gripe. Both the bad guys and the good guys now agree that's the case, so we'll have to accept that it's generally the truth. And Thor seems to agree that it has been the case from the beginning.

[Neoriceisgood]

Durkon's great, team's moral center doing his job absolutely right.

[Riftwolf]

I'm wondering, if Roy had asked the Goblins why, how much information the goblins would have about it. The Goblins of Dorukans Dungeon were enslaved by Xykon, if I remember correctly, and before he showed up they were fully on board with peaceful contact with humans. It's unclear how much of the Plan those goblins knew, but in those early days, it's unclear how much of the Plan anyone knew, including the author.
The Hobgoblins of the Battle of Azure City had an even shakier grasp of why they did what they did, in my opinion. It seemed to boil down to 'because the Supreme Leader said so' and 'because we can'. Further prying might get them to discuss their homeland and stuff from HTPGHS which I've not read, but beyond that I doubt the average grunt on the ground is going to have much of an answer.

[Ruck]

The what now?

It never ends, does it?

[Gallowglass]

I love how tenaciously some posters in this forum still cling to their belief that Redclock is absolutely wrong and that there is no imbalance between the goblins and other races no matter how many comics the Giant posts confirming they are wrong.

[Fyraltari]

There's no reason to think so far that they did start with poorer lands.
Yes there is. Thor admitted it was true on the eleventh panel of last page.


It was a couple thousand years ago, the Western continent shuffles up every few years. Even Azurite City is only lasted a few decades.
You are thinking of the Sapphire Guard. Azure City predates Soon Kim by a large margin. If memory serves, HtPghS established that it used to be one of the main city of a continent-spanning empire centuries ago (hence the mix of asian cultures).


They started out with less ability to grow wealth, and a non-cooperative mindset (usually evil alignment) and they ended up losing those first wars for the good lands. Since then the cycle of poverty has continued. That doesn't mean that good races shouldn't give them a chance to do better, but what it would take is an alignment shift by an entire race of usually evil beings to become good/neutral.
It's easier to be a good person when you don't have to scrap a living hoping some jerk in armor won't massacre your village for something your second-cousin-in-law did.



Even in our world of mostly good people people we have wars over resources and groups of folks that have poor lands.

Funny that reminds me of a word, aligator? Alley gory? Something along those lines...

[Robots]

Woo-hoo, update.

So they're actually discussing this now! It's not every day the hero admits "hey, the villain has a point". And Redcloak totally does have legitimate points, evil as he may be.

Durkon's sarcasm to Roy at the end was funny, though. Got a laugh out of me.

[Some]

Emphasis mine. That's my guess, too -- even though Roy never had discussed this with anybody, maybe he'd subconsciously noticed "hey, the only goblinoid settlements are in really desolate areas...I wonder why..." and didn't take it any further until now.

I dunno if Goblinoid land-quality is really a question to have had.

It's pretty obvious that, in-universe, it's been a matter of military success. This is explicitly discussed in the arc with Elan's dad in the Western Continent, where it's said that the Elves took the fertile lands to the north while other races (including humans and lizardfolk) fight over the relatively barren lands to the south.

That said, races do seem to be portrayed as having differing inclinations toward development. We've seen a lot of examples of communities of different races, where humans/elves/dwarves seem to generally build up settlements, including castles, while goblins/trolls/hobgoblins seem to put up tents and log-walls or occupy pre-existing buildings that fall into disrepair. Apparently these traits hold even on the Western Continent, where humans are largely nomadic in a barren land.

A major unexplained phenomena is that there's somehow an equilibrium between humanoid races. It's unclear how goblins somehow persist if they're really being hunted all of the time.. maybe they mass-respawn, like in an MMORPG?

[Jurai]

Durkon Thundershield throwing enough shade to kill an entire forest.

[Empiar93]

To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment:
While Roy and the Order should have asked why the goblins were working with Xykon, they DID have a reason supplied for them by Shojo and corroborated by Xykon himself: Xykon is laying siege to the gates in order to use them as leverage to rule the world. Redcloak, representative of the goblins, is assisting Xykon.

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. But how often have they really even had a chance to ask, other than in Dorukan’s Dungeon (not fully relevant: but I believe the villains’ motivations were only half-formed by then, correct)?

I do not think it’s even fair for Durkon to chastise Roy at all here. It’s not like he ever asked until just now, and this was the first chance they had where Xykon wasn’t also present and trigger-happy.

[Pampukin]

I don't think Roy's "realization" near the end of today's comic is a fair one. Nor is Durkon's comparison to "fighting a vampire while talking to him."

There's a big difference between believing that the person you've known well for a long time might have motives or behaviors that are not "his" driving him to fight you, and believing that every random creature who attacks you will screaming for your blood is somebody you might be able to talk down.

I sincerely doubt that nobody has ever asked a goblin why he was attacking - if only when the goblins had innocent dirt farmers pinned to the ground and were killing them or torturing them for fun - but the goblins also don't tend to think like Redcloak does. They don't do the whole "because we're starving" explanation - they gloat about how they're stronger, or about how it's "because we can," or don't bother answering.

Ive had some players that try the diplomacy in almost every encounter with sentient creatures, going as far as dismissing tactical advantage to do so. Not only goblins, but vampires, evil dragons, etc, only resorting to violence when there was no other alternative and always trying to pursue a nonlethal resolution. It pissed the other more murderhobo inclined members off quite a bit at first, but then they got into it, finding ways to make combat stop or getting into standoffs in order to try and reason.

[InvisibleBison]

And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

There are plenty of hobgoblin civilians - we just don't see them, because they stayed home (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) when the soldiers went to war.

[Ionathus]

I dunno if Goblinoid land-quality is really a question to have had.

It's pretty obvious that, in-universe, it's been a matter of military success. This is explicitly discussed in the arc with Elan's dad in the Western Continent, where it's said that the Elves took the fertile lands to the north while other races (including humans and lizardfolk) fight over the relatively barren lands to the south.

Well, yeah, that's a reasonable explanation if you haven't been given a direct revelation from a god. Makes sense that you'd assume it's due to military factors, etc. But when Roy does get that revelation from his best friend and faithful cleric of Thor, it's to his credit that he goes "huh, yeah I never thought about that before."


A major unexplained phenomena is that there's somehow an equilibrium between humanoid races. It's unclear how goblins somehow persist if they're really being hunted all of the time.. maybe they mass-respawn, like in an MMORPG?

I don't think many groups (Pre-O-Chul Sapphire Guard aside) actively hunt goblinoids to extinction. They just crowd them out of the best areas, by force if necessary.


Durkon Thundershield throwing enough shade to kill an entire forest.

As befits a cleric of Thor!

[JonahFalcon]

I love how tenaciously some posters in this forum still cling to their belief that Redclock is absolutely wrong and that there is no imbalance between the goblins and other races no matter how many comics the Giant posts confirming they are wrong.

Doesn't matter. Redcloak is also a mentally goth teen with bad information, and who is, worse, so mired in the sunk cost fallacy he could use it for a swimming pool.

[Jason]

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. But how often have they really even had a chance to ask, other than in Dorukan’s Dungeon (not fully relevant: but I believe the villains’ motivations were only half-formed by then, correct)?
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools features the party capturing two goblins and interrogating them in pages set just before they enter Dorukan's dungeon. Elan successfully adjusts their attitude to "toady" with a diplomacy check so they would have answered anything he asked. Apparently no one in the Order thought to ask why they were following Xykon's orders.

[JonahFalcon]

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools features the party capturing two goblins and interrogating them in pages set just before they enter Dorukan's dungeon. Elan successfully adjusts their attitude to "toady" with a diplomacy check so they would have answered anything he asked. Apparently no one in the Order thought to ask why they were following Xykon's orders.

{scrubbed}

[Crimsonmantle]

I feel like, at this point, the Giant could probably make a decent buck off of 'Redcloak was right' t-shirts, along the lines of the Magneto/Cyclops was right meme in the Marvel Universe

Where's my "I thought Redcloak was right before it was cool" badge?
(Of course the point wasn't so much right as in right. More like, poetically true and a deeply impressive antivillain.)

[Luccan]

*Goblin charging at you with a battle-axe*

"Debate meeeeeeeeee!"

Durkon is ultimately correct and as someone else pointed out its not like they haven't spared and empathized with non-goblinoid foes. "Bags of XP" viewpoint or not, the OOTS never actually paused to consider if the goblins, any goblins, could be talked to (except on the rare occasion they couldn't fight their way out and even then that was just about survival).

[elros]

Thor's and Roy's "well yeah, when you think about it the goblins really are living on the worst land," reaction is the strongest confirmation we've ever had in the comic that there really is something to Redcloak's "everyone else got the good land" gripe. Both the bad guys and the good guys now agree that's the case, so we'll have to accept that it's generally the truth. And Thor seems to agree that it has been the case from the beginning.
How quickly people forget about the tribe of ogres (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html) that attacked the dirt farmers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html). There are a lot of humans who are poor and attacked by non-human races, too.

[bunsen_h]

Possibly Durkon doesn't want to potentially call out Roy in front of the rest of the team, but mostly I think it's a matter of "don't make noise if we don't have to."

That would be my assumption.


They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now.

I really don't think the "double crossing Xykon" stuff would have come out.

[Yarrun]

There are plenty of hobgoblin civilians - we just don't see them, because they stayed home (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) when the soldiers went to war.

Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) when compared to the last few comics

[dancrilis]

How quickly people forget about the tribe of ogres (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html) that attacked the dirt farmers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html). There are a lot of humans who are poor and attacked by non-human races, too.

We never see the ogres attack the farmers and the one guy they captured admitted he got captured deliberately (and that he wasn't hurt).

[Some]

Well, yeah, that's a reasonable explanation if you haven't been given a direct revelation from a god. Makes sense that you'd assume it's due to military factors, etc.

I'm not sure if I'm following.. Thor backed up the military thing.

As Thor revealed, the goblins were created by Fenris, God of Monsters, under the principle of goblin-supremacy through rapid evolutionary adaption. Thor criticizes this strategy as ineffective (which he's right about), and the goblins' resulting weakness means that they lack the strength to compete for desirable land.

Except when they win, e.g. at Azure City. Then they do get, e.g., Azure City. Until they lose it, if the Azurites can come back and win the next battle.

It's a military-strength issue through-and-through. Thor's testimony only further clarified this to be the case.

[Telenil]

To be fair to Roy, from his perspective the goblins aren't (weren't?) working for Redcloak. They were working for Xykon.
Heck, as far back as strip 13, he'd give an angry glare to anyone suggesting they kill sentient creatures just because they have green skin and fangs...
Yep. The goblins the OOTS met were Xykon's minions in the first dungeon, and later, an army of hobgoblins (also commanded by Xykon) attacking the city of their friends and allies. I don't recall any goblin emissary, and even in this arc, Durkon got almost imploded when he did try good-faith negotiations with Redcloak. You get a sense they weren't on fertile grounds for talks. Were the PCs even aware of any rift between Xykon and Redcloak?

Sure, if the goblins have valid complaints, that's important information and you can adress them in good time - if only because it's the right thing to do. But the PCs' job was to stop Xykon and save the world. Unless it turns out goblin motivations are the way to do it, they have nothing to feel bad about: there have been people with reasonable motivations on all sides of every conflict ever, and it still matters who wins.

[Jason]

How quickly people forget about the tribe of ogres (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html) that attacked the dirt farmers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html). There are a lot of humans who are poor and attacked by non-human races, too.
So? Not all humans live on poor land. Presumably some goblins live on better land than others too, but both sides in the comic now agree that goblins in general live in poorer lands than other races.

[Ionathus]

*Goblin charging at you with a battle-axe*

"Debate meeeeeeeeee!"

Haha, this is my exact mindset when my players are up against one of my more-developed monsters! "Please oh please, let them fight back but also continue to argue with the BBEG the whole time so I get to share the cool evil philosophy talking points I've been refining for months."


Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) when compared to the last few comics

Yeah, there are a lot of little touches here and there when you look back at old comics. Rich wasn't bringing it to the forefront or lingering on it very often, but it was definitely there when I did a reread after recent developments. Heck, even Belkar's comment in #0013! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html)

[gatemansgc]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

almost forgot about her teleporting in already!

[Nimbus]

I really like the conversation this comic had started, it is very interesting to see everyone's positions on a incredibly complicated situation that can only exist in this long form story. Also nice to see how civil it has been generally speaking.

My add and what I love about this comic is thus:

Roy is, while imperfect, good. Good enough that even celestially he was judged as such. From the very beginning he has been conscious that every individual is unique and you should not judge a random half orc without more information. He tries to do the right thing. He learns and adapts.

Despite all of this, despite even being good enough to ascend the mountain, he has just realized he inadvertantly condemned an entire people and didn't even think enough to question it for a moment. It took an outside prospective.

Realizing you have been critically wrong about something you would have considered fundamental to yourself is... Hard. Every past experience now has a retroactive eye knowing you were in fact the villain in some ways. The knowledge that without this realization, you might have continued your whole life doing the same.

I look forward to him reckoning this with himself and others. He can't change the past. He can change the future. Will be very interesting to see if he is up to that task.

[Fyraltari]

Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) when compared to the last few comics

It's a direct paraphrase of a real-life quote. The message has always been clear here.

[Teioh]

Hmm, has Roy even fought a Goblin since Book 1? I guess we're making everything in there Hard Core Cannon then.

Also, comparing his best friends sudden betrayal with someone he doesn't know coming at with an axe isn't exactly a solid comparison. Better those frost giants, talkie man talked with them

[Spartan360]

I have to completely disagree with Durkon, Redcloak was in no way right. While the Goblins did get a bad hand of cards, they are in no way entitled for a divine change simply because they didn't win via zerg rush, especially if other's have to take losses even though they weren't involved.

Also Roy really has no reason to be ashamed on his treatment towards the goblins since not only was it shared hostilities between both groups, He clearly knew that the Goblins were working towards obviously evil goals (The gates and destroying Azure City) while also blatantly showing they didn't care who they killed to get that goal.

Also not really hard to see why there hasn't been much success at talking with the Goblins since it really seems that unless that you have enough constitution like O-Chul, It's very unlikely to get anything out of the attacking goblins and even then it will likely be useless information that won't help with the conflict.

Redcloak and the Dark One's goal isn't as noble as they continue to declare since both of them have shown themselves to be spiteful, holier than thou killers that want to make rather terroristic threats while only caring about their own kind (and they were still shown to be apathetic towards Hobgoblins/Bugbears until they were usable (although Redcloak did get nicer to the hobgoblins after letting hundreds of them die in a zergrush)). Also little to no evidence of how much or little they would take the advantage of the snarl even when getting their desires from the gods.

Also with Azure City destroyed, I doubt that the animal pantheon would show much patience towards them.

IMO, the scenario mostly looks like a Age of Empires game, where one of the players starts raging because they started losing and now either wants to use cheat commands or make the other players give him resources due to their entitled rampage as they attack the other players in the meantime.

Also through out the comic, we have only seen two "named" Goblins that actually managed to make peaceful relations with other races as they didn't want more hostilities, Right-Eye and the "Former supreme leader of the Hobgoblins". Also considering how much damage Redcloak has caused with/without Xykon, It's not a surprise that no one has interest trying to converse with him, especially when he has spells that might kill you during that short moment.

Also considering the world, I don't really get why Serini expects Xykon to be friendlier towards monster races when she clearly should know how Evil alignment characters, especially someone like Xykon behave.

[JonahFalcon]

Some people have a serious "Dragon in leather pants" opinion of goblins.

[hroþila]

Why are people saying things like "some humans don't have it easy either" or "this or that goblin is a jerk, so even though Redcloak, Durkon, Roy and Thor agree there is a problem, actually they're wrong".

[JonahFalcon]

Also with Azure City destroyed, I doubt that the animal pantheon would show much patience towards them.

They aren't. Rat, who tried to make friends with The Dark One, is furious with them.

And every time diplomatic offers are made to The Dark One, he melts the messenger.

[JonahFalcon]

ALSO, Redcloak's brother actually founded a city with goblins and humans co-existing, and Redcloak basically flushed it down the toilet.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is. Yes. The Goblins in the beginning of the story, and in OoTPCs were the minions/army of the Evil Overlord.

Yeaaaah, the only goblins they ever spoke to were grumpy teenagers. Which probably want the best source of information. Yeah. Back in Old D&D, parley was an integral part of a lot of encounters. I guess later generation D&D players forgot how to do that. (OK, fine, trying to talk to a green slime never worked, so it was obviously not a part of every encounter)
Hmm, dubious about this direction but lets see where it goes.
If I may quote Thog: :thog: talkie man talkei too much

What is being left out of this discussion, at the moment, is the hard fact that it is Xykon that needs killing, and Redcloak is his ally, but I think Durkon's next point is going to be (in the next strip) "we do need to kill Xykon, but (1) we don't need to kill Redcloak and (2) if we don't kill Redcloak we have a chance at removing the Snarl as a problem forever (yadda yadda TDO/Purple Quiddity) thus (3) we must not kill Redcloak."

But, as Durkon is not the best at speaking skills, he's having trouble spitting it out.

"Kill or capture" has become "capture" as a mission statement regarding Redcloak. (Or so Durkon is trying to persuade Roy). With Xykon, it's Kill/Destroy/etc.

Roy, as the leader, needs to articulate this to the rest of the party. Not on altruistic grounds - remember V and Belkar are around, that sell is a bit too big of an ask - but on save the world grounds. (Which the rest of the party bought into back in Book 3 when he tore up their contracts).

A divine solution is flatly impossible , there is no perfect solution going to come down from on high to provide perfe Yes: Thor mentioned something to Durkon about "you're on your own" ... I'll find the strip later.

Mostly it's "so the invisible Serini lurking nearby won't overhear their discussion and realize that Roy is a reasonable person she should ally with before she attacks them in the next comic." Hard to bet against that.
Durkon's great, team's moral center doing his job absolutely right. True.

To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment:
While Roy and the Order should have asked why the goblins were working with Xykon, they DID have a reason supplied for them by Shojo and corroborated by Xykon himself: Xykon is laying siege to the gates in order to use them as leverage to rule the world. Redcloak, representative of the goblins, is assisting Xykon. Until Roy and the Order learned more stuff in Azure City, they didn't know enough to ask any goblin what was behind all of this. Having a liche to defeat first (whose armed minions the Goblins are/were) poses a plethora of obstacles to sitting down over a coffee and exploring other conflict resolution.

That necessary first step, absent the coffee, finally became possible in Book 7 as Durkon and Redcloak made an initial parley attempt. Just because that first attempt was a less than specatular success doesn't mean that further dialogue can't be attempted.

And that, I think, will be Durkon's subsequent point a few strips from now.

All Serini is going to do is toss a turd into the Order's punch bowl. She'll make it worse, initially. Like Redcloak, albeit for different reasons, she has a very narrow point of view.

[hroþila]

ALSO, Redcloak's brother actually founded a city with goblins and humans co-existing, and Redcloak basically flushed it down the toilet.
Almost every bit of this is wrong.

[JonahFalcon]

I'll say it again: Redcloak is too broken a leader to help the goblins.

I think there have been A LOT OF EVIDENCE that the person who will lead the goblins will be Oona.

She's intelligent, she's politically knowledgeable, she knows that there is hypocrisy among the goblinoid races, and she isn't one to step into a fight for no reason.

[understatement]

Some people have a serious "Dragon in leather pants" opinion of goblins.

Groan.

Someone saying "hey, this guy maybe has a point" doesn't equate to "I support this guy and think everything he does is right and justified," despite all the strawmen claiming otherwise.

*

I'm wondering if Roy might try to talk to Redcloak (it'll still probably fail), since he has a better grasp on diplomacy finesse and is also just much more straightforward about it.

[JonahFalcon]

Almost every bit of this is wrong.

https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Right-Eye

You didn't read Start of Darkness, eh?

[DaFlipp]

Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) when compared to the last few comics

Honestly, that page has had me primed for ages to expect a plot twist/arc in which the elves wind up as antagonists, at least in some form.

At this point we're far enough into the plot that I'm not really expecting it anymore, but it wouldn't surprise me if Rich Burlew had considered it at some point, since that comic very effectively portrays that the elves are 1.) nominally on the heroes' sides, 2.) brutally efficient (this more from the comics preceding it), and 3.) surprisingly cruel. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where the heroes negotiate a truce with the goblins, only for their elven allies to deduce that outright subjugation/extermination is the most "logical" fate for their foes. Actually, depending on how this "find a way to negotiate with the goblins" arc goes, I guess it could still happen!

(To be clear by "the elves" I mean the specific nation/military that those particular elves come from, not necessarily all elves everywhere.)

[hroþila]

https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Right-Eye
I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

[JonahFalcon]

I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

Hmm-mmm.

What was the meaning of Right-Eye's last words to Redcloak. Enlighten me.

[hroþila]

Hmm-mmm.

What was the meaning of Right-Eye's last words to Redcloak. Enlighten me.
I'm not interested in chasing goalposts.

[danielxcutter]

Durkon is just the best.

There's a typo in panel 1, Roy says "wether or rot".

Edit: wait, no, I just can't read.

I know, I made that mistake at first too.


Calling it now: Durkon Thundershield, High Priest of Thor.

Well he's certainly younger than Rubyrock, and he's probably higher level and her by now.

Plus, y'know, he might be the only living cleric who's actually spoken with Thor so extra points for that too.


https://s2.qwant.com/thumbr/0x380/5/8/2e7b4a1b3502e46e74e4390d32708eba355b1b1a7630ed79dd 8ab9c508447d/aae3ec662dc3183c986c34df7f65d8baf84ca6e02f02423c38 5326595c7da31e_1.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.ifcdn.com %2Fimages%2Faae3ec662dc3183c986c34df7f65d8baf84ca6 e02f02423c385326595c7da31e_1.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

Pretty much.


Given the actual outcome of that story, "they" is a very broad brush for "ready and willing to perpetuate war."

Less "brush" and more "Great Wall of China with bristles" if you ask me.


True, but that doesn't excuse Roy never even thinking about figuring out why all the goblins are doing this. It just means that Redcloak, as an individual, is an ass (and has earned his Evil alignment instead of just being assigned it because race) and Durkon was unlucky that his attempt at doing the right thing had him walking up to the most volatile and dangerous of all the goblins.

In short: Redcloak being an asshat does not automatically invalidate everything that comes out of his mouth.


This all is making me think of the campaign I'm running right now.

For generations, goblins have lived on the fringes of society, stealing food to maintain their underground burrows beyond human borders, in unfarmable lands.

Seeing the goblins as pests, there's been a modest bounty on goblins (5sp each) as long as anyone can remember.

Eventually, the goblins start to attack humans in force, with the end goal of intimidating them enough to get them to give up enough land that the goblins can farm food without being killed.

Of course, the duke of the area isn't being honest about that part, and everyone thinks that the goblins are mindless monsters.

I like your DM.


I wonder if they're setting up a How to Train Your Dragons 2 situation here.

Hiccup learned the hard way that some people, like Drago Bludvist, are too broken to listen to the peaceful solution. Redcloak may be too broken to save or negotiate with.

I was personally under the impression that Drago was an asswipe, though. And didn't have a tenth of Redcloak's nuance or complexity.


It never ends, does it?


I love how tenaciously some posters in this forum still cling to their belief that Redclock is absolutely wrong and that there is no imbalance between the goblins and other races no matter how many comics the Giant posts confirming they are wrong.

This truly is the Song That Never Ends (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz6OGVCdov8) isn't it?

No wait, not annoying enough. More like song that gets on everyone's nerves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj1heGiIehU). One kid in elementary school sung that on the bus once and I still remembered it fifteen years and more later to look it up.


To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment:
While Roy and the Order should have asked why the goblins were working with Xykon, they DID have a reason supplied for them by Shojo and corroborated by Xykon himself: Xykon is laying siege to the gates in order to use them as leverage to rule the world. Redcloak, representative of the goblins, is assisting Xykon.

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. But how often have they really even had a chance to ask, other than in Dorukan’s Dungeon (not fully relevant: but I believe the villains’ motivations were only half-formed by then, correct)?

I do not think it’s even fair for Durkon to chastise Roy at all here. It’s not like he ever asked until just now, and this was the first chance they had where Xykon wasn’t also present and trigger-happy.

And that is why Roy is still LG and trying, instead of the deva taking a look at his file and chucking it straight to Mechanus(or worse). As a single thing it isn't much of a mark on his alignment, but the problem is that a gazillion people had the chance and far too few people bothered to even consider it, plus the active asshattery some of the paladins pulled in the bonus material.


Doesn't matter. Redcloak is also a mentally goth teen with bad information, and who is, worse, so mired in the sunk cost fallacy he could use it for a swimming pool.

HAH! I laughed out loud at that, it was that funny.

[Fyraltari]

I'll say it again: Redcloak is too broken a leader to help the goblins.
Agreed.


I think there have been A LOT OF EVIDENCE that the person who will lead the goblins will be Oona.
Disagreed. My money's on Jirix.


she isn't one to step into a fight for no reason.
I mean, technically "Recloak asked nicely" and "I thought Monster-san would enjoy eating them" are reasons, but come on.




ALSO, Redcloak's brother actually founded a city with goblins and humans co-existing, and Redcloak basically flushed it down the toilet.
https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Right-Eye

You didn't read Start of Darkness, eh?
I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

To elaborate: Right eye lived (not founded, or at least that's not told) in a village (not a city) that had non-violent relationships with the neighboring human settlements (they don't live together) and it was "flushed down the toilet" by Xykon (not Redcloak whonhad made his mind to leave there in peace).

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll say it again: Redcloak is too broken a leader to help the goblins.

I think there have been A LOT OF EVIDENCE that the person who will lead the goblins will be Oona.

She's intelligent, she's politically knowledgeable, she knows that there is hypocrisy among the goblinoid races, and she isn't one to step into a fight for no reason. Jyrix, on the other hand, is a charismatic leader and in Gobbotopia now, working on building the newly founded goblinoid nation.

While I think that Oona's a cool character, I don't think she's cosmopolitan enough to lead Gobbotopia. But maybe she is, maybe she has deep wells of leadership-fu, and we'll see her grow in that direction.

Interesting take on Oona, thanks for that.

I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point. +2

[JonahFalcon]

I'm not interested in chasing goalposts.

It's not a goalpost. You just said I'm completely wrong.

Redcloak is a teenager who's never aged. Right-eye ages, and ends up living in a village where all species co-exist, including humans.

Right-eye basically tells Redcloak that he never grew up, despite being elderly for a goblin (because the Mantle gave him youth and effective immortality).

He doesn't call Redcloak by his real name. He calls him Redcloak. Because he's Xykon's bitch.

{scrubbed}

[JonahFalcon]

Jyrix, on the other hand, is a charismatic leader and in Gobbotopia now, working on building the newly founded goblinoid nation.

While I think that Oona's a cool character, I don't think she's cosmopolitan enough to lead Gobbotopia. But maybe she is, maybe she has deep wells of leadership-fu, and we'll see her grow in that direction.

Interesting take on Oona, thanks for that.
+2

Jirix is charismatic, but that doesn't make him a good leader.

And we're not talking about a mayor of a city.

We're talking about a god's representative. Oona is not required to lead anyone.

Rich has been dropping hints about Oona every second she's in a panel. That makes me think she's far more important than she seems.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not a goalpost. You just said I'm completely wrong.

Redcloak is a teenager who's never aged. Right-eye ages, and ends up living in a village where all species co-exist, including humans.

Right-eye basically tells Redcloak that he never grew up, despite being elderly for a goblin (because the Mantle gave him youth and effective immortality).

He doesn't call Redcloak by his real name. He calls him Redcloak. Because he's Xykon's bitch.

S Xykon: I now have every confidence that you will act to serve my interests from now on, even when I'm not really around to supervise you. I know that you'll protect my phylactery if my body is destroyed.
Redcloak: You don't know that... I could wait until someone defeated you, and then—
Xykon: And then face the realization that if you destroy my phylactery, you killed Right-Eye over nothing. Nothing at all. And you don't have the balls for that.
Redcloak: I—I can raise him from the dead! I'm a Cleric, I just have to—
Xykon: Ah, but he'll know. He'll remember that you killed him to protect me, and he'll know you for what you are: My willing slave. And man, you REALLY don't have the balls for that.
Redcloak: What have I done?
Xykon: So therefore, you're just going to continue following me and doing whatever I order you to do. Because as long as you're loyal to me, I'll let you pretend this never happened. We'll just go about our daily business, and you can hide from the horrifying truth of what you've become — namely, a murderer who just killed his own baby brother in cold blood. And hey, we can both pretend that you don't really have any options about any of the despicable actions I ask you to take from here on out — rather than acknowledging that, like Right-Eye, you do in fact have a choice. But unlike Right-Eye there, you're too chicken**** to ever make it. You'll obey me forever now, because I give you an excuse for your inexcusable behavior. Now, are you going to stand there and tell me that I'm wrong?... Didn't think so. As a reward for your honesty there, I'll let you in on a little evil secret. What I said up there to Dorukan about overwhelming force? That's only part of Colonel Xykon's secret recipe for winning. [whispering] It's not just about raw power, it's also about how far you're willing to debase yourself before feeling bad. And me? I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. [normal voice] That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch. S
Please put that into SoD spoiler brackets. From the Red S to the other red S.

[Metastachydium]

You didn't read Start of Darkness, eh?

I have the impression that whenever you read SoD, it must have been a long while ago.
1. Right-Eye didn't found a city. He built/helped build a small village.
2. While it wasn't at war with the humans et al., and the circus scene demonstrates that these goblins were tolerated 'round there, the village was a goblins only settlement.
3. Most importantly, Redcloak had precious little to do with its destruction. He was about to abandon the Plan and get laid when Xykon turned up with a bunch of ogre mercenaries and ordered the goblins to follow him and destroy the village. The goblins, Right-Eye included, comélied.

[Spartan360]

Hey Jirix shouted a warning to Xykon when O-Chul attacked, that shows a massive increase in competence compared to many other characters in fiction.

[danielxcutter]

Groan.

Someone saying "hey, this guy maybe has a point" doesn't equate to "I support this guy and think everything he does is right and justified," despite all the strawmen claiming otherwise.

Oh my god so effing MOOD.


I'm wondering if Roy might try to talk to Redcloak (it'll still probably fail), since he has a better grasp on diplomacy finesse and is also just much more straightforward about it.

There's something to be said about the rule of three after all. Roy has good enough mental stats across the board to come up with better ideas, though his Diplomacy modifier probably isn't that high since it's not a Fighter class skill.


I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

+3 and Flaming Burst to this!

[KorvinStarmast]

Jirix is charismatic, but that doesn't make him a good leader. Recommend a review of what Charisma is all about in D&D. :smallwink: He is also, being a cleric, possessed of a good Wisdom score.

Wisdom is a desirable trait in a leaader.

[JonahFalcon]

I have the impression that whenever you read SoD, it must have been a long while ago.
1. Right-Eye didn't found a city. He built/helped build a small village.
2. While it wasn't at war with the humans et al., and the circus scene demonstrates that these goblins were tolerated 'round there, the village was a goblins only settlement.
3. Most importantly, Redcloak had precious little to do with its destruction. He was about to abandon the Plan and get laid when Xykon turned up with a bunch of ogre mercenaries and ordered the goblins to follow him and destroy the village. The goblins, Right-Eye included, comélied.

1. Distinction without difference.
2. And was open to other races.
3. hahahaha What did Xykon say again?

[JonahFalcon]

Recommend a review of what Charisma is all about in D&D. :smallwink: He is also, being a cleric, possessed of a good Wisdom score.

Wisdom is a desirable trait in a leaader.


Oooh. I don't want to go all Godwin's Law on you, but charisma don't make a good leader. It just makes people do what you want them to.

[danielxcutter]

{Scrubbed}

[KorvinStarmast]

Oooh. I don't want to go all Godwin's Law on you, but charisma don't make a good leader. It just makes people do what you want them to. You'd be surprised how often it does. (Granted, that can sometimes have a downside).

Gobbotopia is in the nation building / identity defining stage. A charismatic leader goes well at that stage of nation building, the technocrats usually come later ... it's been less than a year since the Azurites were expelled and the Goblinoids took over.

@Metastachydium: Laughed, I did. :smallbiggrin:

[GKBeetle]

And I will playfully slap the first person to argue that Chaotic Good is an excuse to be a murderhobo.

Heck, I'd argue that chaotic good should be the less likely to be murder hobos in some instances. Like if there's a law that all goblins should be killed on sight, they'd be, "screw that. I'll only kill goblins who I see are doing something evil. If the goblins aren't hurting anybody, why should I care?"

[understatement]

He was about to abandon the Plan and get laid when Xykon turned up

Meta, have I mentioned how your posts make me crack up? I should mention that.

[danielxcutter]

Meta, have I mentioned how your posts make me crack up? I should mention that.

I'd skimmed that line, but when I saw your post I read it again properly and giggled. So +1 to this.

[Metastachydium]

1. Distinction without difference.
2. And was open to other races.
3. hahahaha What did Xykon say again?
1. hroþila remarked that your statement was factually wrong on almost all counts, and you failed to see how. I just pointed it out.
2. [Citation needed.]
3. I recommend that you reread SoD if ypur impression is that Redcloak destroyed the village.


Meta, have I mentioned how your posts make me crack up? I should mention that.

I'm doing my best!

[Spartan360]

No reason to use Godwin's law, History is pretty filled with charismatic figures that were pretty bad rulers. {Scrubbed}

[JonahFalcon]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html

You're just a…a big phony, talking about stuff like equality and and justice to make yourself feel better about shoving them off a cliff! I don't think you really care about them -- you just feel bad about not caring!!

[Robots]

Someone saying "hey, this guy maybe has a point" doesn't equate to "I support this guy and think everything he does is right and justified," despite all the strawmen claiming otherwise.

Exactly, yo.

As low as RC's sunk, he has a point about how the goblins were given the short end of the stick by an uncaring god. I think it's real dumb how people refuse to acknowledge someone's legitimate points just because they hate that person. (A statement that applies to real life, too. But not about anyone here, that's not what I'm implying and I don't want it to come across as me implying that.)

[hroþila]

I would also suggest that, in a discussion about the prosperity of goblinoid societies under the current status quo, the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

[Telenil]

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. Could it? How many goblins knew Redcloak's secret plan, and how many of these would have revealed it if asked? Redcloak only spoke it out loud because he had decided to kill or destroy everyone in the room.


I do not think it’s even fair for Durkon to chastise Roy at all here. It’s not like he ever asked until just now, and this was the first chance they had where Xykon wasn’t also present and trigger-happy.I agree. Did we ever get a goblin emissary? I don't recall any. Also, Redcloak tried to Implode Durkon during the negotiation, and there is every reason to believe he would have done the same back when the PCs didn't even know about his plans.

[danielxcutter]

No reason to use Godwin's law, History is pretty filled with charismatic figures that were pretty bad rulers. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Well yes, but I don't see how making it more likely people listen to you wouldn't help you be a competent leader.

Also I get what the last panel is referencing:


“To err is human, to repent divine; to persist devilish.”

[JonahFalcon]

Exactly, yo.

As low as RC's sunk, he has a point about how the goblins were given the short end of the stick by an uncaring god. I think it's real dumb how people refuse to acknowledge someone's legitimate points just because they hate that person. (A statement that applies to real life, too. But not about anyone here, that's not what I'm implying and I don't want it to come across as me implying that.)

Yet this same goblin is willing to kill real goblins on the off-chance the new world will have ANY goblins. AND is unwilling to believe that The Dark One won't survive the next world either.

Redcloak: How many goblin lives have you snuffed out? Personally?
Durkon: Na as many as ye.

[KorvinStarmast]

No reason to use Godwin's law, History is pretty filled with charismatic figures that were pretty bad rulers. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} Nice inversion of post hoc, ergo propter hoc in the case of Jirix, who has barely begun.

And maybe glass half empty is not the only way too approach this? Here's the logic structure you have fallen for: some charismatic leaders have turned out badly, therefore all charismatic leaders shall turn out badly.

Some Charismatic leaders are excellent leaders/rulers - it is not an either or thing. {Scrubbed}

[Spartan360]

Eh, It's not like the Goblins are in a unique position of getting bad hands from the gods, They just made the loudest complaint.

[Metastachydium]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html

You're just a…a big phony, talking about stuff like equality and and justice to make yourself feel better about shoving them off a cliff! I don't think you really care about them -- you just feel bad about not caring!!

That's just, like, Minrah's opinion, though (who doesn't know jack about Redcloak (who, mind you, is not exactly an exemplary fellow, to put it mildly, but has shown clear signs that he does, in fact, care)).


Yet this same goblin is willing to kill real goblins on the off-chance the new world will have ANY goblins. AND is unwilling to believe that The Dark One won't survive the next world either.

Why should he believe that?

[Cicciograna]

I would also suggest that, in a discussion about the prosperity of goblinoid societies under the current status quo, the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

To be honest, the place where RC found the hobbos wasn't really a small village, it was a city capable of sustaining 88 legions of ~300 hobbos each.

But clearly your point still stands, and besides, the fact that they had such a settlment doesn't say anything about the nature of their treatment at the hands of other races.

[Spartan360]

Nice inversion of post hoc, ergo propter hoc in the case of Jirix, who has barely begun.

And maybe glass half empty is not the only way too approach this? Here's the logic structure you have fallen for: some charismatic leaders have turned out bdaly, therefore all charismatic leaders shall turn out badly.

Some Charismatic leaders are excellent leaders/rulers - it is not an either or thing. For two examples I'll offer George Washington, and Charlemagne - but we may be straying from the topic, so I'll stop there.

I wasn't saying anything about leaders per say, I just stated that he could use something else than Godwin's law.

[Robots]

Yet this same goblin is willing to kill real goblins on the off-chance the new world will have ANY goblins. AND is unwilling to believe that The Dark One won't survive the next world either.
I didn't say RC was right. I said he had a point. I don't think what RC is doing is good, and I know he is wrong and deluded. I don't understand how you took my statement as endorsement of RC's villainy.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's just, like, Minrah's opinion, though (who doesn't know jack about Redcloak (who, mind you, is not exactly an exemplary fellow, to put it mildly, but has shown clear signs that he does, in fact, care)). You might say that he cares too much, to a certain extent, such that it often blinds him to all else. (I might be engaging in hyperbole there, but he is very dedicated to the cause and the Plan, for all of his imperfections as an individual)

For Spartan:

I wasn't saying anything about leaders per say, I just stated that he could use something else than Godwin's law. Ah, gotcha, I mistakenly took your post as a Falcon bandwagon jump - mi dispiace. :smalleek:

[JonahFalcon]

That's just, like, Minrah's opinion, though (who doesn't know jack about Redcloak (who, mind you, is not exactly an exemplary fellow, to put it mildly, but has shown clear signs that he does, in fact, care)).



Why should he believe that?

BECAUSE THOR SENT HIS OWN EMISSARY, AND HE ATTACKED HIM UNDER A FLAG OF TRUCE?

Also, ever heard of sunk cost fallacy?

Redcloak is swimming in it. He refuses to believe BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE HE WAS WRONG AND RIGHT-EYE WAS RIGHT.

[danielxcutter]

Exactly, yo.

As low as RC's sunk, he has a point about how the goblins were given the short end of the stick by an uncaring god. I think it's real dumb how people refuse to acknowledge someone's legitimate points just because they hate that person. (A statement that applies to real life, too. But not about anyone here, that's not what I'm implying and I don't want it to come across as me implying that.)

I don't think it's even about hating someone - it's because Redcloak is a villain, and thus by extension the goblins. An "Other" who don’t need to apply our moral and ethical standards to. Someone we can feel superior to.


I would also suggest that, in a discussion about the prosperity of goblinoid societies under the current status quo, the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

Also +1 to this.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, ever heard of sunk cost fallacy?
Nope, nobody on these forums has ever heard of that nor even discussed it.


PS: shouting is not necessary. :smallwink:
(Netiquette 101: using bold/all caps comes across as shouting in on line text based discourse)

[JonahFalcon]

the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

Yes. It's far more impressive for a small village to do it.

Take it from someone who was born, bred, and lives in New York City, and who has family in the sticks.

Diversity in a big city is easy.

Diversity in a small town? Hoo-boy, much more difficult.

[danielxcutter]

{Scrubbed}

[Spartan360]

I have to say that I more agree with Minrah there, while I don't vision him as some goblin slaughtering idiot, He seems very apathetic and refuses to even think about the Teamkilling he does whether it's for the plan or they might hinder him in some capacity, small or large.

[JonahFalcon]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary.

[danielxcutter]

I have to say that I more agree with Minrah there, while I don't vision him as some goblin slaughtering idiot, He seems very apathetic and refuses to even think about the Teamkilling he does whether it's for the plan or they might hinder him in some capacity, small or large.

It's partly right, partly wrong IMO.

He does care - but he also cares about his sunken cost fallacy and being right.

He hasn't had another "crucible" moment where he breaks down and has to choose what's the most important thing to him. I think he's due for one at the end of this book, though.

[Metastachydium]

BECAUSE THOR SENT HIS OWN EMISSARY, AND HE ATTACKED HIM UNDER A FLAG OF TRUCE?

Redcloak believes (and he is, of course in part wrong) that Thor is among the bunch who deliberately screwed over his race. Why should he trust Thor (or better yet, someone who claims to speak for him)?



He does care - but he also cares about his sunken cost fallacy and being right.

He hasn't had another "crucible" moment where he breaks down and has to choose what's the most important thing to him. I think he's due for one at the end of this book, though.

In other news, I wholly agree with this.

[danielxcutter]

Also "attacked under a flag of truce" is literally how TDO died.

[KorvinStarmast]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary. It would be a wardrobe upgrade for her; I think she'd wear it well. :smallcool:

[Spartan360]

Not sure, How much does Redcloak believe in alignments?

[Metastachydium]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary.

(A minor nitpick of sorts: I don't really see her gaining 17 levels of cleric 'til the endgame.)

[bunsen_h]

"Kill or capture" has become "capture" as a mission statement regarding Redcloak. (Or so Durkon is trying to persuade Roy). With Xykon, it's Kill/Destroy/etc.

Roy, as the leader, needs to articulate this to the rest of the party. Not on altruistic grounds - remember V and Belkar are around, that sell is a bit too big of an ask - but on save the world grounds. (Which the rest of the party bought into back in Book 3 when he tore up their contracts).

It was right for Durkon to raise the issue privately, with Roy, to avoid undermining him as leader. But if Roy then tells the rest of the party, aloud, it may let Serini have second thoughts if she's also able to hear too.

[Cicciograna]

I think he's due for one at the end of this book, though.

Eh, I don't really see it coming, to be honest. He's too deep in, and too entrenched in his own convinctions to be swayed: heck, he actually had the opportunity, for once, to actually talk and present his ideas. He instead decided to act based on tactical considerations that didn't seem to have any opening to the fact that the other side might be, for once, willing to actually cooperate.

[Telenil]

I don't think it's even about hating someone - it's because Redcloak is a villain, and thus by extension the goblins. An "Other" who don’t need to apply our moral and ethical standards to.
Speaking for myself here: I agree that Redcloak has a point, in that goblins should be given a chance to change their lifestyle if they want to, but I fail to see how it makes any difference in that situation. My perspective is that unless and until his motivations can be used to drive a wedge between the goblins and Xykon, that's only relevant for a time after Xykon and Redcloak himself have been defeated - along with any goblinoid attempting to defend them.
It's not that they are Others, it is that they are enemies in a battle with very high stakes.

[Metastachydium]

Not sure, How much does Redcloak believe in alignments?

He seems to think they are kind of arbitrary and relative (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html).

[Some]

You're just a…a big phony, talking about stuff like equality and and justice to make yourself feel better about shoving them off a cliff! I don't think you really care about them -- you just feel bad about not caring!!

That seemed apt.

Redcloak's kinda tragic in that there are hints of concern for goodness in him, but he's mostly just really evil. When he reaches for a justification, there's a weird mix of his dominant evil nature just rationalizing to service his own ego, tinged with what seems like a bit of genuine truth.

As we saw at the Godmoot, Fenris, who created the goblins, is a pretty darn evil character. It then makes sense that the goblins inherited a lot of evil in their basic nature. Though some part of Redcloak seems to be trying to push him toward doing some good.. I kinda wonder if this might be a story where a deeply evil character ends up finding a new path?

Though we probably ought to remember that, in-universe, other characters have hoped for the same only to be proven horribly wrong.

[Thermophille]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary.

My prediction: We find out more about why TDO is being antisocial, he gets convinced first, and by divine revelation tells Redcloak to help him get levrage via closing the gates instead of slaughtering gods.

Redcloak has a massive breakdown because of everything he's done, and after fixing the gates steps down to let Jirix take over.

[Spartan360]

Depends, sometimes it's more fitting to view enemies as others. For example when the hobgoblins came to attack Azure City, I think it's far more sensible to view them as someone you can have your mages carpet bomb instead of caring enough to attempt to capture some of them alive during the battle.

[Jason]

Also "attacked under a flag of truce" is literally how TDO died.
No, that's what Redcloak believes happened, and it would probably be a mistake to take that story at face value.

Redcloak also believes the Dark One was a merciful and just ruler to all goblinkind, and that he had no intention of using the massive hoard he gathered to actually fight anyone. "It was just so the humans would listen to reason."

[Empiar93]

Won’t try and reply to everyone individually, but yeah I was wrong in saying Redcloak’s treachery would be revealed.
It would be more accurate to say: they could have discussed bumping off Xykon to help Redcloak achieve his goals, had they had a chance to talk to Redcloak alone. After all, that’s the conclusion Roy has already reached with his’s sister’s advice.
I’ll also adjust my question accordingly: how the hell should Roy or anyone have known, without even a chance of a discussion, that Redcloak has an agenda that has barely anything to do with Xykon? Not especially fair to judge him (or anyone else) for answering the goblin’s show of force in kind. The only interaction they had outside DCF was when Xykon DECLARED WAR. And they know what the invading army was seeking: the gate which contains a fantasy nuke.

[Emberlily]

As we saw at the Godmoot, Fenris, who created the goblins, is a pretty darn evil character. It then makes sense that the goblins inherited a lot of evil in their basic nature.

That people are looking at the most recent comics and becoming more convinced that goblins etc. are naturally evil in their core is really concerning to me.

[danielxcutter]

No, that's what Redcloak believes happened, and it would probably be a mistake to take that story at face value.

Redcloak also believes the Dark One was a merciful and just ruler to all goblinkind, and that he had no intention of using the massive hoard he gathered to actually fight anyone. "It was just so the humans would listen to reason."

Hmm, true. I suspect there's at least a grain of truth in that narrative, though.

Also even if Redcloak does survive this I really don't see him being the leader. Even at his best he is a wartime leader and revolutionary, and not someone particularly needed during peacetime.

Of course considering that very few mortal spellcasters come even close to his level he'd probably function as a nuclear deterrent on top of that.

[Spartan360]

To be fair, this is D&D and evil races are a thing.

[hroþila]

While Fenrir came up with and designed the goblinoids, that doesn't mean he was their sole creator or that they were infused with his essence or anything of the sort. The gods took turns to make design decisions, and all the gods in unison implemented them. There's no reason to believe the link goes any deeper than that, or for that matter, to believe that Therkla (a ninja) had some of Monkey's essence in her.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, this is D&D and evil races are a thing.

This isn't strictly D&D. This is Order of the Stick, which is based on 3.5e.

Also 1. there's been settings where it's eminently clear that race and alignment have nothing to do with each other, and B) Rich has stated at least once(and probably more) that he hates the implications of Always Evil races and if he could he'd stamp that out for good.

[KorvinStarmast]

It was right for Durkon to raise the issue privately, with Roy, to avoid undermining him as leader. But if Roy then tells the rest of the party, aloud, it may let Serini have second thoughts if she's also able to hear too. Yes and double yes. :smallbiggrin:

Redcloak has a massive breakdown because of everything he's done, and after fixing the gates steps down to let Jirix take over. While I'd like that outcome, I don't think Redcloak gets off that easy.

[Jason]

To be fair, this is D&D and evil races are a thing.
It's a thing in D&D, but it's becoming increasingly clear that it may not be a thing in Stickworld.

[Spartan360]

This isn't strictly D&D. This is Order of the Stick, which is based on 3.5e.

Also 1. there's been settings where it's eminently clear that race and alignment have nothing to do with each other, and B) Rich has stated at least once(and probably more) that he hates the implications of Always Evil races and if he could he'd stamp that out for good.

I actually think that evil races and monsters should have been expected when you have both divine beings and others interacting with the world.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's a thing in D&D, but it's becoming increasingly clear that it may not be a thing in Stickworld. With Rich as the metaphorical DM, that's certainly within his remit - he's the world builder.
(see also Halflings, Dark Sun, 2e AD&D, and so on ...)

I have a current DM who has a completely different take on bgoth the Drow and Githyanki for his game world: it's refreshing! :smallcool:

[danielxcutter]

With Rich as the metaphorical DM, that's certainly within his remit - he's the world builder.
(see also Halflings, Dark Sun, 2e AD&D, and so on ...)

I have a current DM who has a completely different take on bgoth the Drow and Githyanki for his game world: it's refreshing! :smallcool:

I suspect you'd love Eberron.

[arimareiji]

My sympathies to the forum denizens who, for a long time, have been dancing around the fact they're arguing with the author.

My heartfelt kudos to any Sticksylvanian who manages to choke down the first bite of crow, which is a feat that personally I've too often paid the price for failing at. If it's any consolation, I think this comic draws a contrast between:

Roy and Durkon as examples of the rare and admirable person who manages to throttle back on what he's "known" all his life to consider the viewpoint of The Enemy, and
Redcloak as the much more common "No, I MUST be right and I will never back down because The Enemy did bad things for which I will never forgive them".

Again, kudos to anyone who manages to be Roy and Durkon. And sympathies to anyone who can't break free of being Redcloak. He'd implode me for saying so, but this trait of his is painfully-human and dreadfully-common.

[Ionathus]

Better those frost giants, talkie man talked with them

That's actually a really good point, and part of why I appreciate the nuance in Stickworld: Roy tried to convince the Frost Giants that their plan was bad and they should stop, and it didn't work. They refused to listen to reason, and he had to kill them anyway. But, as the Deva said, that's no reason not to keep trying.

I've played a PC at tables where the (sentient, humanoid, non-brainwashed) enemies fight to the very last HP. Not a single one ever surrenders, or negotiates, or retreats, even when there's no reason for them to keep fighting, and it was terribly dull. A more fun approach was the DM who had most encounters be combat, but occasionally they could be reasoned with. However, you'll never know until you try, and it introduces a very compelling dynamic where you're bound to at least try in every fight...which makes the few times it pays off all the sweeter.

One thing I love about The Monsters Know What They're Doing is Keith's assessment that pretty much any mortal creature is going to turn and run, or surrender, at some point. When you start to think of the enemies like that, instead of as uniform dogmatic murder robots, non-lethal win conditions become possible.


I didn't say RC was right. I said he had a point. I don't think what RC is doing is good, and I know he is wrong and deluded. I don't understand how you took my statement as endorsement of RC's villainy.

There aren't a lot of TVTropes that I consider Recommended Reading, but there are certain ones that should be heavily encouraged if you want to debate character motivations on the internet. Villain Has A Point (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainHasAPoint) is absolutely one of them.


No, that's what Redcloak believes happened, and it would probably be a mistake to take that story at face value.

Redcloak also believes the Dark One was a merciful and just ruler to all goblinkind, and that he had no intention of using the massive hoard he gathered to actually fight anyone. "It was just so the humans would listen to reason."

In fairness, Redcloak does depict him as a warlord. He just...never mentions any of the fighting that the big army he gathered ever did. "Don't worry about it. It's not important to how diplomatic and peaceful he was, which is the point I'm making right now."

Given how we just learned the SoD Crayon Narrative was "only kinda" wrong about the XP Fodder situation, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a similar thing if TDO's death ever comes up. I don't believe he was a peaceful and perfectly-behaved diplomat...but was he still a wise and effective leader to the goblinoids? Did he still try to negotiate with the PC races? And did they kill him through trickery or deceit, or because they believed a goblinoid ruler to be "less than" them? I can believe that's still the story, even if the set dressing changes.

[KorvinStarmast]

I suspect you'd love Eberron. If I ever get a DM who knows the lore and wants to run it in D&D 5e, I'd love to try it out. There's some really good stuff in there.

We'll see.

[Cicciograna]

While Fenrir came up with and designed the goblinoids, that doesn't mean he was their sole creator or that they were infused with his essence or anything of the sort. The gods took turns to make design decisions, and all the gods in unison implemented them. There's no reason to believe the link goes any deeper than that, or for that matter, to believe that Therkla (a ninja) had some of Monkey's essence in her.

To underline your point, we actually have Thor's word that it's like you say. Thor says that "most of them didn't have anything to do with the goblins", a statement that implies that, apart from Fenris, somebody else in fact did.

It would actually be interesting, at this point, to speculate on who else did have their hands in their creation, rearing and well-being (or lack thereof).

[arimareiji]

That people are looking at the most recent comics and becoming more convinced that goblins etc. are naturally evil in their core is really concerning to me.

Indeed, but it's dreadfully human.
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

[Emberlily]

It would actually be interesting, at this point, to speculate on who else did have their hands in their creation, rearing and well-being (or lack thereof).

That could be fun academically, but with the way some people have been fixated doggedly on Fenris since 1232, I worry that that might get people drawn too much into that in a way that isn't really relevant to either the plot of the story or its themes. Who made the goblins doesn't seem to be something Durkon or Thor seems is too important after the initial reveal of the fact.

[Spartan360]

Though a still rather important note that Thor and Odin made a while ago, with how many more evil and chaotic gods there are, I think it would far harder for the good/lawful gods to get anything through. In fact, If Hel also had ownership of goblin souls, I don't doubt that she would veto against any possible votes that thor and Odin would try to make for the goblins, so I think it might be like that for the other pantheons as well.

The bet between Hel and Thor, only went as it did because Hel was too shortsighted and Thor had enough experience with Loki how to play a rules lawyer. Considering that Tiamat demands the deaths of hundreds/thousands of good dragons after V's familicide, the issues of dealing with the divine beings might be quite a bit more difficult than both Redcloak and Durkon expect.

[Some]

Again, kudos to anyone who manages to be Roy and Durkon. And sympathies to anyone who can't break free of being Redcloak. He'd implode me for saying so, but this trait of his is painfully-human and dreadfully-common.

I feel bad for Durkon on this one. And maybe Roy, too, if he falls into it.

As far as I can tell, Redcloak's genuinely evil.. he's frequently delighted in killing and torturing many, including his own subordinates, Durkon, and O'Chul. Delighting in the torment and death of others, on such a consistent basis, is a level of evil unseen in real-life except in the very worst sadistic psychopaths, blunted only by the cartoonish drawing style of the comic.

That said, he's got a little bit of good in him. Enough to stop killing the hobgoblins for fun when one sacrifices their life for him, presumably after the novelty of killing and torturing them started to get stale anyway.

To be clear, that's a very small amount of good -- it really doesn't take a lot of good to avoid indulging in killing subordinates for giggles -- mixed in with an ocean of evil. But it's there, and.. that's something.

When he speaks, the internal conflict is apparent: most of his justifications are merely to sate his own ego, which itself is a lesser form of evil (I mean, bad, but at least he's not murdering innocent people when he's doing it), but then there seems to be some sincerity too.

And so it feels sorta like the question of when to sentence someone to jail: if we're 99.9% sure someone's guilty, then 1-in-1000 times, we might send an innocent to jail. Do we do that, or let 999-in-1000 guilty people go?

Redcloak feels like that 99.9%-evil with 0.1% goodness.. it's hard to condemn any goodness, no matter how slight. But it's still silly to pretend that the evil isn't there.

[danielxcutter]

That's actually a really good point, and part of why I appreciate the nuance in Stickworld: Roy tried to convince the Frost Giants that their plan was bad and they should stop, and it didn't work. They refused to listen to reason, and he had to kill them anyway. But, as the Deva said, that's no reason not to keep trying.

I've played a PC at tables where the (sentient, humanoid, non-brainwashed) enemies fight to the very last HP. Not a single one ever surrenders, or negotiates, or retreats, even when there's no reason for them to keep fighting, and it was terribly dull. A more fun approach was the DM who had most encounters be combat, but occasionally they could be reasoned with. However, you'll never know until you try, and it introduces a very compelling dynamic where you're bound to at least try in every fight...which makes the few times it pays off all the sweeter.

One thing I love about The Monsters Know What They're Doing is Keith's assessment that pretty much any mortal creature is going to turn and run, or surrender, at some point. When you start to think of the enemies like that, instead of as uniform dogmatic murder robots, non-lethal win conditions become possible.

I'm in a Red Hand of Doom campaign right now. We've only had two fights so far, but the first fight was an ambush where the remaining enemies committed suicide(they were fanatics of Tiamat, which is hardly representative of goblins in general for quite a few reasons), and the second was a random encounter of nasty little fey called thornclaws that ran when we killed half of them.

Needless to say, this is much more fun than dragging it out.


There aren't a lot of TVTropes that I consider Recommended Reading, but there are certain ones that should be heavily encouraged if you want to debate character motivations on the internet. Villain Has A Point (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainHasAPoint) is absolutely one of them.

There is of course the itty bitty eensy weensy problem that TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife), but otherwise that's a pretty good one.


In fairness, Redcloak does depict him as a warlord. He just...never mentions any of the fighting that the big army he gathered ever did. "Don't worry about it. It's not important to how diplomatic and peaceful he was, which is the point I'm making right now."

Given how we just learned the SoD Crayon Narrative was "only kinda" wrong about the XP Fodder situation, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a similar thing if TDO's death ever comes up. I don't believe he was a peaceful and perfectly-behaved diplomat...but was he still a wise and effective leader to the goblinoids? Did he still try to negotiate with the PC races? And did they kill him through trickery or deceit, or because they believed a goblinoid ruler to be "less than" them? I can believe that's still the story, even if the set dressing changes.

Basically this.


If I ever get a DM who knows the lore and wants to run it in D&D 5e, I'd love to try it out. There's some really good stuff in there.

We'll see.

Eberron's quite refreshing, yes, and is also one of my favorite settings by the mere fact that all non-supernaturally influenced mortals are not innately inclined to any alignment outside of culture at all, period.


Indeed, but it's dreadfully human.
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

Seems about right.

[StragaSevera]

Sorry, but I really cannot empathise with this message.

It seems like the main philosophy of this strip is: "If you are dealt a bad land, then you are free to take the stuff from more rich lands".

You are quick to shame Roy for not attempting the parley, but why are you not shaming the goblins who did not attempt to parley with him?

There are no such thing as "eternaly bad land" in our world - some nations managed to transform a desert into a garden. But it is easy to blame the external circumstances instead of trying to improve them.

[Dragonus45]

To be fair, this is D&D and evil races are a thing.

No actually, even in 3.5 where this comic is based there are adjectives added onto like Usually or Always or the like alongside descriptions of what that actually means that help breakdown that actually races of people aren't evil. Cultures are, and even a Usually Neutral Evil race like goblins has significant share of individuals in a different spot in the law-chaos axis, a fairly large number of neutrals and a smattering of goods on the other axis. Most of which in normal D&D can be blamed on the literal evil gods who have control of said cultures. In this I think its better blamed on Fafnflarfnriz making them a desperately resource hungry race and not helping them to get properly set up leading to a culture heavily dependent on raiding violence to get said resources, also leading to a long running cycle of violence. Whatever really happened with the Dark One is also I think going to shed a lot of light on the issue. Because I believe his story less and less as time goes on, and I already didn't exactly think it held a lot of water.

Outsiders or Golems and actual non thinking animals also exist and are generally where the Always bit comes in, but I argue they often don't qualify as "people", and even then the Always bit is more of a 99.9 type of deal.

[Telenil]

I still have to see an answer to that question: does anyone think the PCs could realistically have acted any differently? Is there any point when they could have sat down with someone who knew Redcloak's motivations and get a straight answer out of them?

Let's say they had interrogated a random goblin and learned they were doing all this to find better lands. Then what? Do they hand Azure City out to Xykon so goblins can live there? Do they come talk to Redcloak until he casts Implosion on them? Maybe Roy could have questioned the goblin as a general principle, but even in hindsight, it hasn't mattered very much so far.

[danielxcutter]

I still have to see an answer to that question: does anyone think the PCs could realistically have acted any differently? Is there any point when they could have sat down with someone who knew Redcloak's motivations and get a straight answer out of them?

Let's say they had interrogated a random goblin and learned they were doing all this to find better lands. Then what? Do they hand Azure City out to Xykon so goblins can live there? Do they come talk to Redcloak until he casts Implosion on them? Maybe Roy could have questioned the goblin as a general principle, but even in hindsight, it hasn't mattered very much so far.

I don't think this is supposed to be a "you did a bad, we're going to burn you at the stake for that" thing.

It's a relatively minor oopsie; the problem is that there's been many, many oopsies over history(plus some much bigger oopsies by the Guard) and that's all added up.

[Jason]

Sorry, but I really cannot empathise with this message.

It seems like the main philosophy of this strip is: "If you are dealt a bad land, then you are free to take the stuff from more rich lands".

I disagree. I think the philosophy is "if an entire sentient race has been forced into poverty that is a wrong that should be righted, regardless of how evil they and their leaders are."

Thor, Durkon, and now Roy all agree that an injustice has been done without agreeing with Redcloak's ideas of how that injustice should be rectified.

[Emberlily]

I still have to see an answer to that question: does anyone think the PCs could realistically have acted any differently? Is there any point when they could have sat down with someone who knew Redcloak's motivations and get a straight answer out of them?

Let's say they had interrogated a random goblin and learned they were doing all this to find better lands. Then what? Do they hand Azure City out to Xykon so goblins can live there? Do they come talk to Redcloak until he casts Implosion on them? Maybe Roy could have questioned the goblin as a general principle, but even in hindsight, it hasn't mattered very much so far.

It doesn't even have to be a way to find out/solve the Plan Situation. This is one of those situations where the later writing is at the whim of the very early stuff, but with what we the audience know now about the situation of the goblin forces of Xykon in book 1, there's still a lot that could've been talked about. If Roy had found out that the goblins were only nominally under Xykon's hire and were roped into his command under threat of death to themselves and their entire families, that may have changed the level of lethal force the Order brought to the goblins then. It wouldn't have saved the world or fixed the broader social situation, but it could've helped save the lives of dozens of people who didn't have much choice in being involved.

[CountDVB]

I recall what Snowtwo said from the thread of the previous thread:


Something I want to add.

IRL a species with both a high birthrate and low life expectancy is typically considered to be a prey animal. At best it might become a pack hunter but rarely do they become true apex predators. Even among the apex they usually have the chance to live longer than their relative counterparts. This is because the high birthrate allows for the species to survive when being preyed upon and there's little need for longterm investment since they can't compete with the higher predators. Better to 'put it all upfront' as it were and have 1-3 years of fruitfulness before you get killed by something you can't fight against.

Intelligent species benefit immensely from a lower birthrate and longer lifespan however. This is because they can focus the resources more towards individual members, including education, and then live long enough to pass on their knowledge to future generations. You don't want to be competing against your own after all. An elven child won't need to compete against their siblings for attention or resources, will be able to receive a focus in education, able to leverage their education for longer, and then pass off that education + accumulated knowledge to future generations with ease. Meanwhile a goblin has to compete for both resources and educational attention, won't be able to leverage their education for as long, and even if they do survive to old age won't have much accumulated knowledge to pass on.

To make it worse, in a society with a high population innovation tends to stagnate as solutions can be 'solved' with manpower. For example, a knight is EASILY superior to a peasant in combat. They have superior armor, weapons, and so-forth. However armies are made up of peasants. This is because while knights are powerful and, when deployed properly, highly effective they are expensive and outfitting a peasant is as simple as handing them a spear and maybe a shield or cheap armor. When knights clash there's a contest of weapons, armor, and training in which any improvement can be a deciding edge. When armies clash while tactics and equipment factor in the defining factors are things like manpower and supply lines (which is dependent on manpower). Even out of combat there's no need to innovate when you simply can throw more people at an issue especially when social cohesion and stability matters more that innovation. There's a reason why many major technological innovations happened in places with high individuality and low population and places with more population tend to lag behind. Higher resource competition, solutions solvable through manpower application instead of innovation, and a desire for a stable society instead of an innovative one.

To finally 'cap it off', in an intelligent society you want your geniuses to live as long as possible. That way they can develop new innovations and pass them on to later generations. You don't get that in a society in which there's high competition (which typically rewards physical capabilities; though intelligence can impact) and with a high birthrate (where fertility can have a massive impact instead of intellect).

In other words: Fenris basically made a race of sentient rabbits incapable of actually leveraging the advantages they have in the long term or creating the type of society capable of out-competing the normal races since their biology is effectively trapping them in a society that doesn't allow them to leverage their own intellect. The best they can hope for is leveraging their numbers as a labor force and leech off of the innovations of others... who they opt to pillage and raid from instead of working with. It's likely that Gobtopia or w/e will last only as long as Redcloak does regardless of any outside activity before devolving into a tribalistic raiding nation. It will be highly interesting to see how well they stack up against the refugees in a year or three.

Fenris created the goblinoids and expected them to act in a certain manner, expecting to succeed despite his plan failing the last several thousands of times. Given how he's a wolf, I suspect he created the goblinoids to act like pack hunters and thrive as such. However, that's not how things work; they are mortals who make their own decisions and their own choices. That's what makes them different from the gods.

When matters didn't go like Fenris intended, he ditched and none of the other gods were willing or more likely unable to take them under their sponsorship (given how there is a vast and complicated system in creating worlds, it's likely that this was part of it). This means when the world is presented its allotment of resources, the goblins get the scraps because they lack any divine patron to speak up on their behalf.

Hence why Redcloak is banking on the Dark One; if he survives, he could speak for goblinoids. But it's extensively unlikely he will last that long and even if he does, he'd have to deal with the fact that there are worlds that didn't have goblins in them because there were no humans or fantastical elements. And even if they did do another world of fantasy, he'd be having to deal with Fenris, which would be a fustercluck.

The goblinoids did get screwed over and that has to be fixed, but the how is problematic. Fenris will still be trying to make goblins his way unless he's forced not to or someone takes over their well-being and tells Fenris someone else will make the goblins. Problem is, only Thor, Odin and maybe Loki would consider that priority enough to make an attempt. This leaves it to the mortals to fix it though they could still try appealing to the gods. After all, the Twelve Gods are the only other pantheon that really interacted with goblins in this iteration of the world as far as we have seen and questions on with their paladins or clerics should be addressed.

Back to the mortals, only leadership goblins have is Redcloak and to a lesser extent Jirix. Redcloak is motivated more and more by personal vendetta and is at his core, an angry teenager who is in way over his head and too much of a moral coward to own up to his mistakes and failings, especially since he remains with Xykon. The only reason he's considered still viable is because he's a cleric of a high-enough level to help actually make a difference in maintaining the world.

This leaves communicating with Jirix. The likely thing would be to communicate with Jirix and he acting as the main political voice of leadership. But this would require Redcloak backing down and he may not, given well everything. Heck, we know little of the Dark One's agenda since he doesn't even speak to his own high priest for some reason. This definitely makes things further difficult.

[arimareiji]

That seemed apt.

Redcloak's kinda tragic in that there are hints of concern for goodness in him, but he's mostly just really evil. When he reaches for a justification, there's a weird mix of his dominant evil nature just rationalizing to service his own ego, tinged with what seems like a bit of genuine truth.

As we saw at the Godmoot, Fenris, who created the goblins, is a pretty darn evil character. It then makes sense that the goblins inherited a lot of evil in their basic nature. Though some part of Redcloak seems to be trying to push him toward doing some good.. I kinda wonder if this might be a story where a deeply evil character ends up finding a new path?

Though we probably ought to remember that, in-universe, other characters have hoped for the same only to be proven horribly wrong.

You might love Guy Gavriel Kay's trilogy, The Fionavar Tapestry. Someone who has committed horrific wrongs in the name of misguided revenge, even joining forces with Ultimate Evil, is offered one final chance for redemption.

“It need not be over, [name]. You heard Owein’s Horn. Nothing truly evil can hear the horn. Will you not let that truth lead you back?” There was a murmur of sound, quickly stilled. [name] had suddenly gone white. “I heard the horn,” he admitted, as if against his will. “I know not why. How should I come back, [other name]? Where could I go?”
...
“I can grant you the ending you seek, and I will, if you ask me again. But hear me first, [honorific].”
[recaps the grief that started it all]
“They are gone. But you live yet, and for all that you have done in bitterness and pride, you still heard the sound of Light in Owein’s Horn. Will you not surrender your pain, [honorific]? Give it over. Today has marked the very ending of that tale of sorrow. Will you not let it end?”
...
Something moved in [name]’s face, a spasm of ancient, unspeakable, never-spoken pain. His hands came up, as if of their own will, from his sides, and he cried aloud, “If only [the grief that started it all]!” Then he covered his face with his fingers and wept for the first and only time in a thousand years of loss.

[danielxcutter]

I disagree. I think the philosophy is "if an entire sentient race has been forced into poverty that is a wrong that should be righted, regardless of how evil they and their leaders are."

Thor, Durkon, and now Roy all agree that an injustice has been done without agreeing with Redcloak's ideas of how that injustice should be rectified.

Hey, weren't you leaning against Redcloak and TDO around the last comic or so? I thought people changing their mind on the Internet was metaphysically impossible! :smalltongue:

[StragaSevera]

I disagree. I think the philosophy is "if an entire sentient race has been forced into poverty that is a wrong that should be righted, regardless of how evil they and their leaders are."

Thor, Durkon, and now Roy all agree that an injustice has been done without agreeing with Redcloak's ideas of how that injustice should be rectified.

No-no-no. There are many wrongs that can be righted. But - let's see two villages, a goblin one and a human one. They both have bad lands, and they both resort to robbing and slavery. Why do goblin village get a pass about it and human village does not?

If we just count amount of persons living in bad lands, then goblins would be outnumbered by non-goblins (because, for example, Western Continent exists). But you make a big deal of specific goblin suffering and not of suffering of other sentinent beings. Why?

[Dragonus45]

I disagree. I think the philosophy is "if an entire sentient race has been forced into poverty that is a wrong that should be righted, regardless of how evil they and their leaders are."


But what do you even give them at this point? Redcloack agreed that they had their own territory and rules and clerics and god and cities. Sure you can argue they had a harder road getting there and relations are still really tense with the rest of the world even if you don't take sacking a city and enslaving its populace into account, but that's a rather mundane problem on a national level and nothing Redcloak is trying to do would fix it anyways. So honestly, what does righting this wrong even mean right now.

[arimareiji]

Hey, weren't you leaning against Redcloak and TDO around the last comic or so? I thought people changing their mind on the Internet was metaphysically impossible! :smalltongue:
Indeed. But sometimes people can go beyond their 23 pairs of chromosomes, to be Roy or Durkon (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25028443&postcount=191). (^_^)b

[understatement]

No-no-no. There are many wrongs that can be righted. But - let's see two villages, a goblin one and a human one. They both have bad lands, and they both resort to robbing and slavery. Why do goblin village get a pass about it and human village does not?

If we just count amount of persons living in bad lands, then goblins would be outnumbered by non-goblins (because, for example, Western Continent exists). But you make a big deal of specific goblin suffering and not of suffering of other sentinent beings. Why?

"But what about the other groups/races?"

Oh no.

[Telenil]

I disagree. I think the philosophy is "if an entire sentient race has been forced into poverty that is a wrong that should be righted, regardless of how evil they and their leaders are."
No. Most definitely not "regardless" of how evil the leaders are. I'll take a Godwin point if I must, but one of the worst disasters of the XXth century was allowed to happen because the evil dictator had a point when he said that his people had been needlessly humiliated. By the time good people realised what was really going on, it was too late to stop it.

[CountDVB]

But what do you even give them at this point? Redcloack agreed that they had their own territory and rules and clerics and god and cities. Sure you can argue they had a harder road getting there and relations are still really tense with the rest of the world even if you don't take sacking a city and enslaving its populace into account, but that's a rather mundane problem on a national level and nothing Redcloak is trying to do would fix it anyways. So honestly, what does righting this wrong even mean right now.

Well, telling the rest of the sentient mortals not to kill goblins just because they are goblins. They're not inhererently evil; that they are, in fact, just like you. Twelve Gods dropped the ball with the Azurites there.

But with Redcloak, problem is that not sure if anything would change his mind. He bet everything on his plan and he is in way over his head, which is why Xykon is pretty confident. He has seen Redcloak at his lowest and knows he is still ultimately too much of a coward to deviate from the plan. Redcloak can convince himself that he is the puppetmaster all he likes, but he's still pretty much shackled with Xykon and chooses to be.

[Spartan360]

A question though, Who's going to fix the right and wrong towards the matter of Hobgoblin's attacking and conquering Azure City while slaying hundreds of it's people?

[Ionathus]

No-no-no. There are many wrongs that can be righted. But - let's see two villages, a goblin one and a human one. They both have bad lands, and they both resort to robbing and slavery. Why do goblin village get a pass about it and human village does not?

If we just count amount of persons living in bad lands, then goblins would be outnumbered by non-goblins (because, for example, Western Continent exists). But you make a big deal of specific goblin suffering and not of suffering of other sentinent beings. Why?

What makes you think anyone is giving the goblin village a pass?

There is a difference between understanding something and endorsing it. Recognizing the goblins got dealt a bad hand does not make the sacking of Azure City an objective Good. The Stickworld (and ours, too) isn't a binary Right-Or-Wrong like that.

Yes, the goblins have been warlike and hostile to PC races, but that doesn't nullify their bad starting situation. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they also don't cancel out a different wrong.

You can oppose someone and still understand their motivation.

Hell, you can oppose someone and agree with their motivation.

[Lethologica]

Mostly it's "so the invisible Serini lurking nearby won't overhear their discussion and realize that Roy is a reasonable person she should ally with before she attacks them in the next comic."
I've seen a few comments in this direction and wanted to point out that Serini doesn't actually care. The Order is personally responsible for the destruction of multiple Gates and no amount of talking is going to convince her that they're her chaps for keeping the last one intact. And nothing about this conversation is relevant to that consideration anyway.


Sorry, but I really cannot empathise with this message.

It seems like the main philosophy of this strip is: "If you are dealt a bad land, then you are free to take the stuff from more rich lands".
That's exactly the sort of 'wrong about how to make it right' thinking that Durkon explicitly rejects, so no, that's not the main philosophy of this strip.


You are quick to shame Roy for not attempting the parley, but why are you not shaming the goblins who did not attempt to parley with him?
They're not here, for starters.


There are no such thing as "eternaly bad land" in our world - some nations managed to transform a desert into a garden. But it is easy to blame the external circumstances instead of trying to improve them.
Leaving aside that there absolutely is 'eternally bad land' in the real world in every practical sense, and that the goblins may not know how to green their desert, it is fair to point out that the comic is using the concept of 'bad land' in a fairly shallow way. But you're also making a false dichotomy there - it's far from clear that goblins have generally only chosen one of those two things to do. (The Supreme Leader's comments about infrastructure come to mind.)

[danielxcutter]

What makes you think anyone is giving the goblin village a pass?

There is a difference between understanding something and endorsing it. Recognizing the goblins got dealt a bad hand does not make the sacking of Azure City an objective Good. The Stickworld (and ours, too) isn't a binary Right-Or-Wrong like that.

Yes, the goblins have been warlike and hostile to PC races, but that doesn't nullify their bad starting situation. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they also don't cancel out a different wrong.

You can oppose someone and still understand their motivation.

Hell, you can oppose someone and agree with their motivation.

Preach, brother.

[Dragonus45]

Well, telling the rest of the sentient mortals not to kill goblins just because they are goblins. They're not inhererently evil; that they are, in fact, just like you. Twelve Gods dropped the ball with the Azurites there.

Even that much of a divine commandment may well be beyond them to get a consensus on outside of desperate circumstances involving the snarl.




But with Redcloak, problem is that not sure if anything would change his mind. He bet everything on his plan and he is in way over his head, which is why Xykon is pretty confident. He has seen Redcloak at his lowest and knows he is still ultimately too much of a coward to deviate from the plan. Redcloak can convince himself that he is the puppetmaster all he likes, but he's still pretty much shackled with Xykon and chooses to be.

Oh yea Redcloak is just a mess, but I mean in this larger context of deciding he is right and the goblins should get something to make up for having a rough start, but like what do you even give them they don't already have. Not everyone gets an equally easy time of things and it's well past the point where you could give them a leg up somehow to equalize. The best possible bet was the offer to legitimize their hold on Gobotopia really. Which might still wind up on the table, but then I have to wonder how long they go before they pick a fight and lose it again.

[Thermophille]

As someone who just read the relevant side story, do we know what happened to the previous Supreme Leader? We know he stepped down when he saw how powerful Redcloak is, but nothing after that.

[Spartan360]

But in what way is it a wrong that the goblins started with a bad starting area. While their motivations are understandable, i doubt that anyone affected by their attacks would be happy to hear that as a defense or excuse.

[Spartan360]

As someone who just read the relevant side story, do we know what happened to the previous Supreme Leader? We know he stepped down when he saw how powerful Redcloak is, but nothing after that.

Nope, he hasn't been mentioned at all, surprisingly not even O-chul.

[Thermophille]

Nope, he hasn't been mentioned at all, surprisingly not even O-chul.

So, I'm just spitballing here...

We know the previous Supreme Leader was a cleric. We know he was a capable and competent leader, since he did a lot to restructure hobgoblin society, and was willing to work under abusive superiors for years to get to that point.

Jirix is a cleric. He's charismatic, was the first choice to become leader of Gobtopia, and seems like he at least knew Redcloak beforehand.

This has probably been suggested before, though.

[Ionathus]

I've seen a few comments in this direction and wanted to point out that Serini doesn't actually care. The Order is personally responsible for the destruction of multiple Gates and no amount of talking is going to convince her that they're her chaps for keeping the last one intact. And nothing about this conversation is relevant to that consideration anyway.

Good point. I think it might resonate with her a bit given her sympathetic attitude towards trolls, but I'd believe it if she said "aww, they care about goblins, too! Anyway..." *ambush*


Preach, brother.

Haha thank you! I am playing a cleric in my current campaign...


Even that much of a divine commandment may well be beyond them to get a consensus on outside of desperate circumstances involving the snarl.

Given that Thor's been able to talk directly to Durkon without consensus, I imagine each god would be free to spread the word amongst their followers. You'd at least hope the Good gods would do so, and the Neutral or even Evil ones might also if it's clear keeping goblinoids healthy means TDO's purple quiddity survives long-term.


So, I'm just spitballing here...

I can't remember where, but I feel like the Giant confirmed that Jirix is not the former Supreme Leader. Maybe the War & XPs Don't Split the Party commentary? (edited: Jirix wasn't a named character until DStP, but I think I remember Rich saying "I imagined him as that final hobgoblin that joined Redcloak in the throne room against the Sapphire Guard Ghost-Martyrs, who was then resurrected and promoted.")

[Jason]

No. Most definitely not "regardless" of how evil the leaders are. I'll take a Godwin point if I must, but one of the worst disasters of the XXth century was allowed to happen because the evil dictator had a point when he said that his people had been needlessly humiliated. By the time good people realised what was really going on, it was too late to stop it.

And the winners in that particular conflict did not then exterminate the nation that had been the aggressors. Instead they destroyed the evil leadership structure and then did their best to restore the nation to an even footing with its peers. And it basically worked. The aggressor nation is today one of the most prosperous and peaceful on the planet.

I am not "for" Redcloak or the Dark One. Redcloak is a tragic villain, but he is undoubtedly a villain, and he deserves what's coming to him. His villainy and ruthlessness is as much a result of his own choices as it is the terrible things that happened to him that he had no control over.
The Dark One hasn't actually appeared "on stage" yet, so he's still something of a cipher, but his refusing to ever speak directly to his High Priest who has served him faithfully for decades is a hint that I'm probably not going to like him either.

The goblin race as a whole is a different matter.

[Spartan360]

So, I'm just spitballing here...

We know the previous Supreme Leader was a cleric. We know he was a capable and competent leader, since he did a lot to restructure hobgoblin society, and was willing to work under abusive superiors for years to get to that point.

Jirix is a cleric. He's charismatic, was the first choice to become leader of Gobtopia, and seems like he at least knew Redcloak beforehand.

This has probably been suggested before, though.

I get where you are coming from but I think Goblinoid lifespans might make that theory a bit difficult.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: a reminder to everyone to please take extra care to restrict your comments to the explicitly fictional universe of OOTS and not let them bleed out into the real world.

[Telenil]

@Jason
Exactly. As I've said in an other thread, you win the war, then you're fair - in that order.

[Jason]

Well, telling the rest of the sentient mortals not to kill goblins just because they are goblins. They're not inhererently evil; that they are, in fact, just like you. Twelve Gods dropped the ball with the Azurites there.
Hinjo in How the Paladin Got His Scar makes a speech about how the Twelve Gods have taught the Azurites to respect all life, including hobgoblins.

[woweedd]

I forgot Durkon could DO snark. Nice to see the man once described as "surly and unpleasant" come to the forefront once more. And, while I totally get Roy's POV, given that, as far as I can recall, the goblins he killed were serving Xykon as soldiers...Yeah, now that i think about it, he maybe should have tried talking to more of them. Or, at least, not killing them in their sleep.

[LuPuWei]

It's a good conversation. Some of the events in Origin of PCs might spring to mind here - Roy was somewhat better about "seeing the adversary's point of view" there.


Exactly this. At least Roy has some history of being better... just not with the Goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, that's for sure...

[danielxcutter]

So, I'm just spitballing here...

We know the previous Supreme Leader was a cleric. We know he was a capable and competent leader, since he did a lot to restructure hobgoblin society, and was willing to work under abusive superiors for years to get to that point.

Jirix is a cleric. He's charismatic, was the first choice to become leader of Gobtopia, and seems like he at least knew Redcloak beforehand.

This has probably been suggested before, though.

Only half a gazillion times, don't worry. :smalltongue:


Good point. I think it might resonate with her a bit given her sympathetic attitude towards trolls, but I'd believe it if she said "aww, they care about goblins, too! Anyway..." *ambush*

Sounds about right. I can see where she's coming from, but she's infuriatingly narrow-minded in a way.


Haha thank you! I am playing a cleric in my current campaign...

What a coincidence, so am I! Well, a multiclass cleric/crusader who plans to enter a refluffed Ruby Knight Vindicator, but potato potatoe I guess.


Given that Thor's been able to talk directly to Durkon without consensus, I imagine each god would be free to spread the word amongst their followers. You'd at least hope the Good gods would do so, and the Neutral or even Evil ones might also if it's clear keeping goblinoids healthy means TDO's purple quiddity survives long-term.

Heck, Loki used Hilgya's prayers about where Durkon was to guide her into stopping Hel's plan.


I can't remember where, but I feel like the Giant confirmed that Jirix is not the former Supreme Leader. Maybe the War & XPs commentary?

Huh.


And the winners in that particular conflict did not then exterminate the nation that had been the aggressors. Instead they destroyed the evil leadership structure and then did their best to restore the nation to an even footing with its peers. And it basically worked. The aggressor nation is today one of the most prosperous and peaceful on the planet.

I am not "for" Redcloak or the Dark One. Redcloak is a tragic villain, but he is undoubtedly a villain, and he deserves what's coming to him. His villainy and ruthlessness is as much a result of his own choices as it is the terrible things that happened to him that he had no control over.
The Dark One hasn't actually appeared "on stage" yet, so he's still something of a cipher, but his refusing to ever speak directly to his High Priest who has served him faithfully for decades is a hint that I'm probably not going to like him either.

The goblin race as a whole is a different matter.

We have our disagreements, but we firmly agree that goblinkind as a whole did not deserve to get as massively shafted as they've been so far I believe. And that Redcloak arguably got shafted even harder than average.

[Ionathus]

Exactly this. At least Roy has some history of being better... just not with the Goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, that's for sure...

I mean, I've said this before, but I still believe that had O-Chul been in Roy's place when Miko fell, he might've actually been able to talk her down from attacking and going berserk. We've seen O-Chul demonstrate more patience, diplomacy, and empathy than Roy, while Roy opts for snark and swordplay, and had specific bad blood with Miko to boot.

But that isn't an indictment of Roy! He can still definitely be Lawful Good without being the paragon of diplomacy like O-Chul. I think there's a similar thing going on here, where Roy has behaved less than perfectly with regard to goblins, and he acknowledges that shortcoming, but there's no need for him to be shamed or condemned for it. Life is about making mistakes, learning, and doing better next time. If the whole Stickworld were O-Chuls then they would all live in harmony forever...but it wouldn't make for a good story!

[CountDVB]

Even that much of a divine commandment may well be beyond them to get a consensus on outside of desperate circumstances involving the snarl.

Oh yea Redcloak is just a mess, but I mean in this larger context of deciding he is right and the goblins should get something to make up for having a rough start, but like what do you even give them they don't already have. Not everyone gets an equally easy time of things and it's well past the point where you could give them a leg up somehow to equalize. The best possible bet was the offer to legitimize their hold on Gobotopia really. Which might still wind up on the table, but then I have to wonder how long they go before they pick a fight and lose it again.

The deities should do the limited good they can do after creating the world, like at least telling their clerics and paladins, the people who do maintain a sacred bond with them and given how clerics and paladins have prominent influence in major civilization, it will be enough to influence.

Making the genuine honest effort is what matters as we saw with the forces of Good.

After that, its up to the mortals.

[Lethologica]

Oh yea Redcloak is just a mess, but I mean in this larger context of deciding he is right and the goblins should get something to make up for having a rough start, but like what do you even give them they don't already have. Not everyone gets an equally easy time of things and it's well past the point where you could give them a leg up somehow to equalize. The best possible bet was the offer to legitimize their hold on Gobotopia really. Which might still wind up on the table, but then I have to wonder how long they go before they pick a fight and lose it again.
Durkon brought this up with Redcloak, and so did Thor with Durkon. If the answer to what to do about this sort of situation were obvious, there'd be a lot less need for this sort of story. But the fact that characters are asking the same question shows that the author has thought about how to build towards an answer.

[b_jonas]

The first panels remind me of this Star Trek question over on Sci Fi SE: “Does Picard ever deny anyone permission to speak freely?” (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/32043/4918). Roy is, of course, more referring to #920 seventh panel, when Vaarsuvius wanted to talk to him right in the middle of a battle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html). That, and perhaps some of Elan's remarks.

[Spartan360]

Perhaps they should get Elan's 18+ charisma to have a conversation with Redcloak.

[arimareiji]

Exactly this. At least Roy has some history of being better... just not with the Goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, that's for sure...
*drags up old crap, no good reason other than this reminded me*

I wonder if there's a non-zero chance Elan will ever consider how wrong it was to self-destruct a dungeon full of sentient beings for lulz, beyond the semipology of (emphasis added)
"I used to think taking things seriously meant you had to be a huge downer all the time -- so I did stuff based on whether it was cool or funny in the moment, not whether it helped anyone. I think I probably made everything harder for the rest of you when I really didn't need to. Probably not enough to justify trying to stab me, but still. Sorry about that."

[Arathorne]

Yeah I think this is really important. I'm expecting Serini to be invisible around them before she attacks, and if she overheard this conversation she might be much more willing to work with them, given her monstrous sympathies.

having not read all 8 pages of posts yet, the possibility of Serini to overhear this conversation is moot as they were directly talking mind to mind and not out loud. There is now way for her to overhear this type of communication.

On a side note, and after seeing over 30 pages of commentary on the #1232, I am not sure why people tend to be so over analytical on the strip and the message. This is Mr Burlew's story to tell. How he relates it to us is his choice as any author of a story would do. We should not really be judging until the story is finished at least. Personally I think judging his story is just plain wrong in any case as it is the story he wants to relate to us and the world. It is his to tell as he sees fit to tell. Arguing back and forth over justice for goblins is just silly in my perception.

[Thermophille]

*drags up old crap, no good reason other than this reminded me*

I wonder if there's a non-zero chance Elan will ever consider how wrong it was to self-destruct a dungeon full of sentient beings for lulz, beyond the semipology of (emphasis added)
"I used to think taking things seriously meant you had to be a huge downer all the time -- so I did stuff based on whether it was cool or funny in the moment, not whether it helped anyone. I think I probably made everything harder for the rest of you when I really didn't need to. Probably not enough to justify trying to stab me, but still. Sorry about that."

It's not like he had no idea what he was doing, either. He clearly knew it was a self-destruct button.

[arimareiji]

having not read all 8 pages of posts yet, the possibility of Serini to overhear this conversation is moot as they were directly talking mind to mind and not out loud. There is now way for her to overhear this type of communication.
You kinda reminded me... I still have the crack theory that Serini was using a potion of ESP to read O-Chul's mind, and kept prompting him to think about the subject of whether it's right to destroy the gates (and promptly rubbed it in his face when he remembered that he was going to destroy one himself, then a different ex-adin actually did).


On a side note, and after seeing over 30 pages of commentary on the #1232, I am not sure why people tend to be so over analytical on the strip and the message. This is Mr Burlew's story to tell. How he relates it to us is his choice as any author of a story would do. We should not really be judging until the story is finished at least. Personally I think judging his story is just plain wrong in any case as it is the story he wants to relate to us and the world. It is his to tell as he sees fit to tell. Arguing back and forth over justice for goblins is just silly in my perception.
Just in case you want to see, I sounded off on a closely-related topic here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630820-OOTS-1233-The-Discussion-Thread&p=25028443#post25028443). Arguing-by-proxy with the author... doesn't really do anyone much good.


Edit: Adding a reply

It's not like he had no idea what he was doing, either. He clearly knew it was a self-destruct button.
Thank you for helping me bring this into sharper focus, though it makes me sad to realize: And to boot, the semipologies are an unfortunate habit. We also have his "I'm sorry you took offense at my wizard costume" (when what really upset V was that Elan wouldn't stop mocking wizards to their face), after V apologized for snapping at him.
(Your mileage may vary on whether that one sank to the level of a nonpology... it's hard to think someone is truly sorry at all, when in the same sentence they heavily imply the other person was just too sensitive.)

[Ganbatte]

Sorry, but I really cannot empathise with this message.

It seems like the main philosophy of this strip is: "If you are dealt a bad land, then you are free to take the stuff from more rich lands".

You are quick to shame Roy for not attempting the parley, but why are you not shaming the goblins who did not attempt to parley with him?

There are no such thing as "eternally bad land" in our world - some nations managed to transform a desert into a garden. But it is easy to blame the external circumstances instead of trying to improve them.

100% this, every line of text.
I really hope this whole thing won't become mainstream in the events of the story because it's faulty by the premise, acting as if goblins have no responsibility or agency in shaping their own destiny.

C'mon Roy, you can do better!

[Worldsong]

A divine solution is flatly impossible, there is no perfect solution going to come down from on high to provide perfect equity of outcome to everyone because the gods have literally tied their own hands. The mortals getting it done is the only option left, whether it's short term or not.

Missed this the first time, but I wasn't thinking of 'gods magic the problem away'. More something along the lines with what others have suggested, that the Good-aligned gods at least put some more effort into making sure goblin settlements are treated like settlements and not adventuring hotspots.

I mean, there's probably examples of Good-aligned gods already doing that, but... The Sapphire Guard existed. In a world where goblins are treated fairly the Sapphire Guard as it was could not exist and count as a Good-aligned organization.


:vaarsuvius: Bugsby's Sense-Inducing Hand!

I wish I could upvote you for that.


Heck, I'd argue that chaotic good should be the less likely to be murder hobos in some instances. Like if there's a law that all goblins should be killed on sight, they'd be, "screw that. I'll only kill goblins who I see are doing something evil. If the goblins aren't hurting anybody, why should I care?"

You, I like.


I love how tenaciously some posters in this forum still cling to their belief that Redclock is absolutely wrong and that there is no imbalance between the goblins and other races no matter how many comics the Giant posts confirming they are wrong.


My sympathies to the forum denizens who, for a long time, have been dancing around the fact they're arguing with the author.

My heartfelt kudos to any Sticksylvanian who manages to choke down the first bite of crow, which is a feat that personally I've too often paid the price for failing at. If it's any consolation, I think this comic draws a contrast between:

Roy and Durkon as examples of the rare and admirable person who manages to throttle back on what he's "known" all his life to consider the viewpoint of The Enemy, and
Redcloak as the much more common "No, I MUST be right and I will never back down because The Enemy did bad things for which I will never forgive them".

Again, kudos to anyone who manages to be Roy and Durkon. And sympathies to anyone who can't break free of being Redcloak. He'd implode me for saying so, but this trait of his is painfully-human and dreadfully-common.

It's almost like there's a sunk cost involved in arguing that Redcloak is completely wrong and goblins deserve no sympathy.

[Clistenes]

Eberron's quite refreshing, yes, and is also one of my favorite settings by the mere fact that all non-supernaturally influenced mortals are not innately inclined to any alignment outside of culture at all, period.

I'm not so sure. Keith Barker said that goblinoids have a strong tendency towards Law, and that before the Daelkyr corrupted them, they were innately lawful and their society was more similar to a bee hive than to a human kingdom...

Also, he has implied that orcs are naturally chaotic...

[Taevyr]

Personally I think judging his story is just plain wrong in any case as it is the story he wants to relate to us and the world. It is his to tell as he sees fit to tell. Arguing back and forth over justice for goblins is just silly in my perception.

But how could I possibly enjoy fiction without indulging in overly-analytical discussions about it, when so many fans hold badwrong opinions?

But seriously: It's fun to discuss fiction, especially fiction with strong worldbuilding and allegorical elements. Many would say it's the point of fantasy/sci-fi, if there's supposed to be any beyond "enjoyment". It's a bit disappointing to see many people ignore literal statements of the author, but I myself agree that he's dropped the ball in some cases, e.g. the lack of any fallen paladins in SoD's opening scene, which definitely leaves room for discussion; and we can't expect everyone on the forum to be familiar with all Rich's comments on the comic.

It's definitely the Giant's story to tell: I won't pretend otherwise, and simply comparing between this thread and the one for #1232 is proof that we (or at least many of us) get it wrong regularly concerning where he's going/what he intends. But beyond mere enjoyment, there's little point to a story that serves as an allegory if it doesn't nudge its readers to consider and discuss said allegory. Discussion'll get heated, and you'll always have some cases of people seemingly "misreading" or blatantly cherrypicking from the story, but what matters is that it makes people consider the story and allegory. Which will inevitably involve multiple viewpoints.

And Rich does it a whole lot better/more nuanced than many who go full author tract, or those who end up making you think "what the hell where you smoking when you thought this'd be a good element/plot point for legitimizing your obvious author tract". He clearly put a lot of thought into how he would handle this, and it definitely shows: the last few comics are excellent in how nuanced they handle the entire situation of the goblins' plight, and the different viewpoints on that plight.

EDIT:


I wish I could upvote you for that.

Hey, only 17 wizard levels to go for that! You can do it!


It's almost like there's a sunk cost involved in arguing that Redcloak is completely wrong and goblins deserve no sympathy.

And thanks for the laugh, the irony is rather thick, isnt it?

[Spartan360]

Now that I think about it, Aside from the Lizardmen that seem to have managed to make at least decent relationships with other races, have we heard anything about other non-good races, I don't even think that we have seen a single named Orc for example.

[Metastachydium]

Now that I think about it, Aside from the Lizardmen that seem to have managed to make at least decent relationships with other races, have we heard anything about other non-good races, I don't even think that we have seen a single named Orc for example.

In actual fact, we have seen a whole island's worth of orcs, at least five (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html) of whom (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) had names.

[Ganbatte]

My sympathies to the forum denizens who, for a long time, have been dancing around the fact they're arguing with the author.

My heartfelt kudos to any Sticksylvanian who manages to choke down the first bite of crow, which is a feat that personally I've too often paid the price for failing at. If it's any consolation, I think this comic draws a contrast between:

Roy and Durkon as examples of the rare and admirable person who manages to throttle back on what he's "known" all his life to consider the viewpoint of The Enemy, and
Redcloak as the much more common "No, I MUST be right and I will never back down because The Enemy did bad things for which I will never forgive them".

Again, kudos to anyone who manages to be Roy and Durkon. And sympathies to anyone who can't break free of being Redcloak. He'd implode me for saying so, but this trait of his is painfully-human and dreadfully-common.

Indeed man, as a "Roy" type who considered the viewpoint of the enemy and realized it's bogus, I share the sentiment that people should stop blindly taking the bait of Redcloak's narrative of oppression without question - and instead put it through serious scrutiny, including the supposed "enemy" oppressors.

[Spartan360]

In actual fact, we have seen a whole island's worth of orcs, at least five of whom had a name.

Lol, yeah. I can't believe I forgot those, the true believers of Giggles the puppet god of slapstick.

But honestly aside from the island orcs, I think we don't have much information of many of the other races, aside from Dwarves, humans and Gnomes.

edit: and Hobgoblins. Also I'm not counting Thog and Therkla since I don't think they were raised with any orc culture in mind.

[Lethologica]

Indeed man, as a "Roy" type who considered the viewpoint of the enemy and realized it's bogus, I share the sentiment that people should stop blindly taking the bait of Redcloak's narrative of oppression without question - and instead put it through serious scrutiny, including the supposed "enemy" oppressors.
The 'haha, it' s very funny that I can reframe the perspective so that I am the reasonable Roy and everyone else is an uncritical strawman a Redcloak' bit falls flat when you were directly rejecting Roy's perspective further up the page. Arguing with the author, as it were.