Quick question - does changing spell schools of different spells effect the game?

[Forechosen]

Hey guys,

Quick question here. Does changing a spell school, let's say for example, changing Magic Missile from evocation to necromancy - effect the game at all?

Are there any mechanics in the game which rely on certain spell schools?

If you took it to an extreme, and lets say changed every single spell to the Abjuration school, or removed spell schools entirely - would that actually change anything?

The only thing I could think of was that Wizard subclasses often have the whole ''gold and time you must spend to copy a [insert spell school] spell into your spellbook is halved''. But I'm guessing there are other implications somewhere I'm not thinking about?

Thanks for reading!

[clash]

Wizard subclasses also offer benefits when using spells of their special school. For example sculpt spell for the evokers only works for evocation spells so you can't sculpt something like hypnotic pattern.

[Forechosen]

Wizard subclasses also offer benefits when using spells of their special school. For example sculpt spell for the evokers only works for evocation spells so you can't sculpt something like hypnotic pattern.

Oh yes that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of that. Hmm, ok - so perhaps changing up spellschools willy-nilly isn't as harmless as I'd imagined.

[RogueJK]

In addition to the aforementioned Wizard subclass abilities that apply to certain spell schools, there are some non-Wizard subclasses - namely Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster - who are limited to learning spells of only certain schools (with a handful of "any school" options at certain levels).

Also, there are some Sorcerer subclasses - Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul - who get bonus spells that are limited to only certain schools.

Similarly, there are some feats - namely Shadow Touched and Fey Touched - that let you learn additional spells but limit you to choosing spells of only certain schools.

[Forechosen]

In addition to the aforementioned Wizard subclass abilities that apply to certain spell schools, there are some non-Wizard subclasses - namely Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster - who are limited to learning spells of only certain schools (with a handful of "any school" options at certain levels).

Also, there are some Sorcerer subclasses - Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul - who get bonus spells that are limited to only certain schools.

Similarly, there are some feats - namely Shadow Touched and Fey Touched - that let you learn additional spells but limit you to choosing spells of only certain schools.

Ahhh yes, alright - there do indeed seem to be a few more implications than I thought. How about 'outside of subclasses?'

Honestly, I'm asking because my friend wanted to make a necromancer for our campaign - but was (a little) annoyed at the lack of necromancy spells. I flippantly said something like:

''You can just reflavor them! Change Fireball to ''Black Fireball''! As long as you don't change the fundamentals (damage type, damage, range etc) - you can reflavor them however you want! Heck, rename them all and make them all necromancy spells if you want to.''

I understand now I may have spoken a little too soon. However, if this player (let's call them Sophie) did want, in an extreme case, every single one of her spells to be a necromancy spell - would that effect anything in the game? As she would be the only one casting those 'reflavored' spells - I'm guessing it would be fine? (she's never change them all, just ones she'd use a lot - I'm assuming)

But - if there are mechanics in the wider game world, outside of specific subclasses, then she could have issues. Are there any spells or effects, for example, that might protect against a school of magic?

[RogueJK]

You can still reflavor spells to have that necromantic touch, without changing spell schools. A "Black Fireball" cast by a Necromancer might be sickly green flame that leaves the stench of rotting meat and sulphur in the air afterwards, but still otherwise be an Evocation spell that follows the book text of Fireball to a T.

But in that limited case of your Necromancer player in particular, other than the extra healing from her Grim Harvest ability (2x HP from any spell, or 3x HP from Necromancy spells), and cheaper scribing of spells (not really an issue past the first couple levels when gold is scarce), I don't believe there would be any major impact to allowing her to do so. I'm not aware of any spells or effects that only protect against certain spell schools. There are a few magic items that do so, such as the Scarab of Protection, but you can just leave those out of your game.

(IIRC, in past editions, some/many undead and constructs were immune to necromantic effects. But that kind of thing is reflected in 5E with giving certain enemies resistance/immunity to Necrotic damage specifically, not Necromancy spells in general. So a Necromancy Fireball that still does Fire damage wouldn't be affected.)


I guess I just don't see why she would want to change a spell like Fireball to be specifically in a Necromancy spell school. Making it a Necromancy spell doesn't make it any more "necromantic" than changing/reflavoring her description of the spells' presentation would. So unless she's really trying to game Grim Harvest to squeeze out a few additional HP, it's not going to make any difference, provided the spell otherwise behaves like a standard Fireball. So why bother?

[Forechosen]

You can still reflavor spells to have that necromantic touch, without changing spell schools. A "Black Fireball" cast by a Necromancer might be sickly green flame that leaves the stench of rotting meat and sulphur in the air afterwards, but still otherwise be an Evocation spell that follows the book text of Fireball to a T.

But in that limited case of your Necromancer player, other than the bit of extra healing from her Grim Harvest ability (2x HP from any spell, or 3x HP from Necromancy spells), I don't believe there would be any major impact to allowing her to do so. I'm not aware of any spells or effects that only protect against certain spell schools. There are a few magic items that do so, such as the Scarab of Protection, but you can just leave those out of your game.

(IIRC, in past editions, some/many undead and constructs were immune to necromantic effects. But that kind of thing is reflected in 5E with giving certain enemies resistance/immunity to Necrotic damage specifically, not Necromancy spells in general. So a Necromancy Fireball that still does Fire damage wouldn't be affected.)

Thank you for your reply!

Yeah for sure she could definitely reflavor without changing the spell schools - I was sort of more just wondering for myself, after I'd said it, whether hypothetically it would be ok or not.

And absolutely, I'm aware of things having/giving damage resistance to specific damage types - but I just didn't ever remember if specific schools themselves came up. Like I think they might have in earlier editions (I SWEAR there's a spell in Baldur's Gate II that gives you protection from a certain school, or something like that).

Whatever the case, it doesn't sound like she's going to break the game if she does decide to swap a few schools around.

Thanks again! :)

[LudicSavant]

Hey guys,

Quick question here. Does changing a spell school, let's say for example, changing Magic Missile from evocation to necromancy - effect the game at all?

Yes. For instance, it would make it cheaper for Necromancers to learn Magic Missile, and it would benefit even more from Grim Harvest than it already does.


Are there any mechanics in the game which rely on certain spell schools?

Yes.


If you took it to an extreme, and lets say changed every single spell to the Abjuration school, or removed spell schools entirely - would that actually change anything?

Yes. For instance, it would make every single spell charge an Abjurer's ward and make them even stronger than they already are.


But I'm guessing there are other implications somewhere I'm not thinking about? Yes.

[ZRN]

Honestly, I'm asking because my friend wanted to make a necromancer for our campaign - but was (a little) annoyed at the lack of necromancy spells.

Was Sophie annoyed that there weren't many spells that were technically part of the necromancy school (which meant she had to pay more gold to learn them and didn't get as much benefit from the Grim Harvest ability necromancers get)? Or was she annoyed that there weren't enough spells that felt necromancer-y? Because if it's the first, that seems like a pretty minor thing to complain about. If it's the second, you can definitely (in the existing rules in the Player's Handbook, I believe) describe the appearance and name of the spells however you want, within reason. Sophie's fireballs can burn a violet-black and be called "Hellfire Blast," and still technically be evocation spells that do fire damage. OR, you can go a step further and create custom spells for her that closely resemble existing spells, but the do necrotic or poison or whatever damage and count as necromancy spells - there ARE potential balance concerns when you do that kind of thing, but in this particular case you're probably safe. Just reserve the right to take away custom spells that turn out unexpectedly broken - or better, make it so her custom spells are the ones her character personally designed, and maybe that toying with dark forces has unforeseen consequences down the line?

[Forechosen]

Was Sophie annoyed that there weren't many spells that were technically part of the necromancy school (which meant she had to pay more gold to learn them and didn't get as much benefit from the Grim Harvest ability necromancers get)? Or was she annoyed that there weren't enough spells that felt necromancer-y? Because if it's the first, that seems like a pretty minor thing to complain about. If it's the second, you can definitely (in the existing rules in the Player's Handbook, I believe) describe the appearance and name of the spells however you want, within reason. Sophie's fireballs can burn a violet-black and be called "Hellfire Blast," and still technically be evocation spells that do fire damage. OR, you can go a step further and create custom spells for her that closely resemble existing spells, but the do necrotic or poison or whatever damage and count as necromancy spells - there ARE potential balance concerns when you do that kind of thing, but in this particular case you're probably safe. Just reserve the right to take away custom spells that turn out unexpectedly broken - or better, make it so her custom spells are the ones her character personally designed, and maybe that toying with dark forces has unforeseen consequences down the line?

Oh no, she wasn't annoyed at the gold/time cost, or the effect of grim harvest - more that when she looked through her spellbook, only a small portion of those spells were necromancy spells - or even, necromancy 'ish'. Which lead me to say that whole thing about reflavoring the spells. In the spur of the moment, I couldn't think of a reason why she couldn't just rename fireball 'Hellfire Blast' and change it to a 'necromancy' spell (keeping the rest of the spell mechanics identical).

It honestly wasn't a big discussion we had, I just thought it might be cool for her if her spellbook was then full of spells which were technically necromancy spells - even though they'd function identically to their normal counterpart in every other way. We definitely weren't going to start changing damage types, because as you've said that can potentially lead to balance problems.

But after some thinking, I was like ''wait.. would just changing the spell school lead to balance problems too?''

And that's when I wrote this thread!

[LudicSavant]

Ahhh yes, alright - there do indeed seem to be a few more implications than I thought. How about 'outside of subclasses?'

Honestly, I'm asking because my friend wanted to make a necromancer for our campaign - but was (a little) annoyed at the lack of necromancy spells. I flippantly said something like:

''You can just reflavor them! Change Fireball to ''Black Fireball''! As long as you don't change the fundamentals (damage type, damage, range etc) - you can reflavor them however you want! Heck, rename them all and make them all necromancy spells if you want to.''

I understand now I may have spoken a little too soon. However, if this player (let's call them Sophie) did want, in an extreme case, every single one of her spells to be a necromancy spell - would that effect anything in the game? As she would be the only one casting those 'reflavored' spells - I'm guessing it would be fine? (she's never change them all, just ones she'd use a lot - I'm assuming)

But - if there are mechanics in the wider game world, outside of specific subclasses, then she could have issues. Are there any spells or effects, for example, that might protect against a school of magic?

Changing everything to a Necromancy spell would be a big buff for Necromancers, who already are a very, very high optimization potential class.

If Sophie's problem is that they think that not enough things work with Grim Harvest, remind them that you can (and should) use non-Necromancy spells with Grim Harvest, just like you can (and should) use non-Divination spells with Portent. The spells that have the greatest synergy with Grim Harvest are not Necromancy spells, but those spells that do repeated, off-turn damage. Making those spells into Necromancy spells would be an unnecessary buff.

If you just want to change the flavor, that's simple enough. But changing the school does, indeed, affect the balance of the game. Necromancers are super strong and you do not need to buff them.

[Forechosen]

Changing everything to a Necromancy spell would be a big buff for Necromancers, who already are a very, very high optimization potential class.

If Sophie's problem is that they think that not enough things work with Grim Harvest, remind them that you can (and should) use non-Necromancy spells with Grim Harvest, just like you can (and should) use non-Divination spells with Portent. The spells that have the greatest synergy with Grim Harvest are not Necromancy spells, but those spells that do repeated, off-turn damage. Making those spells into Necromancy spells would be an unnecessary buff.

If you just want to change the flavor, that's simple enough. But changing the school does, indeed, affect the balance of the game. Necromancers are super strong and you do not need to buff them.

Yeah I am beginning to understand that, it's just frustrating because she was absolutely not looking for a buff in the slightest - just a means to have more necromancy spells. But yeah, I do understand, we can absolutely make do with just renaming them.

[stoutstien]

Yeah I am beginning to understand that, it's just frustrating because she was absolutely not looking for a buff in the slightest - just a means to have more necromancy spells. But yeah, I do understand, we can absolutely make do with just renaming them.

You could always add more spells in the game if you're willing to homebrew.

[Edenbeast]

Changing spell schools to, I guess, the player's advantage? A necromancer gets the Grim Harvest ability at level 2, which means when they kill one or more creatures with a spell, they regain HP equal to twice the spell's level, or thrice when the spell belongs to the school of necromancy. It's not huge, but your friend seems to look for ways to maximise their grim harvest with a "black fireball." Changing spell schools has quite a few implications, especially for wizards as they can do certain things or regain a use of a special ability when they cast spells from their school. I'd be fine with re-flavouring spells, as in, different visuals or something, but nothing more. Also, the school of necromancy actually has quite a few good damaging spells, e.g. vampiric touch, blight, enervation, finger of death, horrid wilting. Granted, necromancy is mostly about single target, while fireball is good to throw on a bunch of critters. I guess there's the trade-off: kill something with fireball for 6 hp or use vampiric touch for 9 hp.

edit: started typing and forgot to post :P

[Forechosen]

Changing spell schools to, I guess, the player's advantage? A necromancer gets the Grim Harvest ability at level 2, which means when they kill one or more creatures with a spell, they regain HP equal to twice the spell's level, or thrice when the spell belongs to the school of necromancy. It's not huge, but your friend seems to look for ways to maximise their grim harvest with a "black fireball." Changing spell schools has quite a few implications, especially for wizards as they can do certain things or regain a use of a special ability when they cast spells from their school. I'd be fine with re-flavouring spells, as in, different visuals or something, but nothing more. Also, the school of necromancy actually has quite a few good damaging spells, e.g. vampiric touch, blight, enervation, finger of death, horrid wilting. Granted, necromancy is mostly about single target, while fireball is good to throw on a bunch of critters. I guess there's the trade-off: kill something with fireball for 6 hp or use vampiric touch for 9 hp.

edit: started typing and forgot to post :P

It's true, it would be to her advantage because of grim harvest - although that is genuinely an inadvertent advantage, because I know she's like the opposite of a power gamer. She really was just a little disappointed at her lack of necromancy spells. Purely for thematic reasons.

Also I mean, fireball was just an example because it's such an iconic spell. I actually can't remember what else she has in her spellbook, but I imagine it's got some staples in like Shield, Magic Missiles etc.

I simply just thought it could be ''cool'' if she changed, let's say, renamed 'Shield' into 'Dark Repel' and changed the school to necromancy. Obviously there's no problem with renaming - but after this thread, it does appear there's slightly more of an issue with reschooling.

[Edenbeast]

It's true, it would be to her advantage because of grim harvest - although that is genuinely an inadvertent advantage, because I know she's like the opposite of a power gamer. She really was just a little disappointed at her lack of necromancy spells. Purely for thematic reasons.

Also I mean, fireball was just an example because it's such an iconic spell. I actually can't remember what else she has in her spellbook, but I imagine it's got some staples in like Shield, Magic Missiles etc.

I simply just thought it could be ''cool'' if she changed, let's say, renamed 'Shield' into 'Dark Repel' and changed the school to necromancy. Obviously there's no problem with renaming - but after this thread, it does appear there's slightly more of an issue with reschooling.

Well yes, some schools get more spells than other arcane schools, but I always felt the schools are pretty well balanced, transmutation and conjuration get a lot of spells, but their school powers are not amazing, while necromancy, enchanting, and divination especially, get awesome school powers but not so many spells. Changing how spells look is cool, it adds flavour to the character. It's their study after all, and some things are "fact" like the school, components, the effect, etc., but how a spell manifests itself is up to the caster. I've played a necromancer myself, where shield looked like an ancestral spirit that protected me, and magic missile was angry spirits/skulls sent at the target, but I didn't change the school as their function was still the same. Why would only illusion spells have that "openness," I mean, the sun is hot, but so are a red dwarf and blue giant, so why not a blue fireball?

[Yakk]

Are you the DM?

Well, write new spells. Tell the player that these spells are provisional, and can be changed if they are too good.

1st and 2nd level have 3 and 3 necromancy spells each. That sucks. 3rd has plenty. 4th has 2. 5th has 3. 7th has 1.

I'd go for 2 more level 1 2 and 4, and maybe 1 more level 5 and 7.

So come up with 8ish spell ideas, then sort and balance and prune.

Here are some off the top of my head:

Haunt
A spell that summons a ghost. The ghost moves around the battlefield and attempts to fear foes.

Death and Decay
This spell creates a region of unlife, sapping the life force out of creatures within it.

Necromatic Familiar
This ritual animates a small creature into being your familiar.

Pus
This spell creates pus-filled boils on a creature.

Price of Flesh
This spell flays your own flesh to generate arcane power.

Spirit Vortex
This draws on the energy of the recently dead to create a cyclone.

Sanguine Cup
Enchants a being with some of the powers of a dead creature by drinking their blood.

Pale Horse
Creates an undead mount.

Blood Bargain
Forms a bond between you and a willing victim. When you cast necromancy spells, they are infused with energy, but when you are hurt, you draw on them.

Dead Tell Tales
Extract what a dead being knew by casting bones.

Sanguine Compass
Gives the direction a creature is in, given a drop of their blood.

---

Sanguine Cup I'd make the 7th level one so it can be impressive.

None of these are reskins of existing spells. The closest would be Necromatic Familiar, which I'd make exclusive with the Familiar spell effect, and you'd end up with an undead companion instead of the usual stuff.

[Amdy_vill]

Hey guys,

Quick question here. Does changing a spell school, let's say for example, changing Magic Missile from evocation to necromancy - effect the game at all?

Are there any mechanics in the game which rely on certain spell schools?

If you took it to an extreme, and lets say changed every single spell to the Abjuration school, or removed spell schools entirely - would that actually change anything?

The only thing I could think of was that Wizard subclasses often have the whole ''gold and time you must spend to copy a [insert spell school] spell into your spellbook is halved''. But I'm guessing there are other implications somewhere I'm not thinking about?

Thanks for reading!

spell schools don't have much effect on the game outside of wizards, it would change the game tho it's not a change that would require a large number of other changes if you are removing a spell school you should remove the school's subclass from the wizard.

[NCat]

Someone may have mentioned this already, but Clock-Sorcerer and Abberant-sorcerer, since they have their expanded spell options with the ability to swap out any of their extra spells with the catch being that they have to be from a particular spell school. For example, clockwork soul can swap out their extra spells for a spell of the same level from the warlock, sorcerer or wizard spell list as long as they are abjuration or transmutation.